POSC 371 Immigration Teach-In Fall 2018

Meet the Students!

(From left to right) Dr. Wylie (she/her), Nancy (she/they), Jack (he/him), Claire (she/her), Kathryn (she/her), and Liza (she/her), and created and hosted the Immigration Teach-In on Monday, November 5th 2018 as part of their community engagement project in Social Movements in the U.S. and Abroad (POSC 371). This page is a culmination of the work they produced!

Immigration and immigrants’ rights have always been a relevant topic around the world, due to the fact that migration is a human constant and human right, especially if a person is being persecuted by the nation they reside in. In an increasingly polarized society, the understanding of the cultural and legal implications of asylum-seekers, refugees, and immigrants has been forgotten and replaced with bias that dictates an understanding of the topics at hand. In order to bring awareness to various influential cases across the world, and locally, in the Harrisonburg community (which has a thriving immigrant and refugee population itself), students in James Madison University’s POSC 371 class (Social Movements in the U.S. and Abroad) held a Immigration Teach-In on November 5th, 2018, from 11am-3pm in the campus Student Success Center. The goal of the teach-in was to provide an informal location and space to raise consciousness among JMU students surrounding the national narrative on immigrants in the United States, look at case studies across the world for comparative purposes, and look at the national and local policy that affects millions of lives everyday.

 

EVENT SCHEDULE
WHEN WHAT WHO
11:00 am – 11:30 am Introduction

Community guideline overviews with review on inclusive language terms to use (undocumented person, not all Latinx people are Mexicans, not all undocumented people are Latinx)

 Dr. Kristin Wylie and Nancy Haugh
11:30 am -1:00 pm Tabling Portion

Table presentations on refugee crises in

  • Colombia
  • Eritrea
  • Germany
  • Jordan

Local policy review and discussion of national legislation (DACA, current status of acceptance of refugee acceptance/asylum seekers)

 Team members:

Jack Hales

Nancy Haugh

Claire Hietanen

Kathryn Walker

Liza Vanyan
12:45 pm -1:30 pm CWS Presentation

  • Discussion of the work CWS does in the Harrisonburg community
  • Description of the process for a typical refugee placement
  • Harrisonburg refugee history and demographics
  • Presentation of resources and volunteer opportunities
Church World Service (CWS) AmeriCorps Rep:

Kiley Machart
1:30 pm – 3:00 pm Tabling Portion Team members:

Jack Hales

Nancy Haugh

Claire Hietanen

Kathryn Walker

Liza Vanyan
2:45 pm – 3:00 pm Closure

Invitation to join the TPS Journey for Justice discussion in Madison Hall

 Team members
3:00 pm – 5:00 pm Temporary Protected Status (TPS) Table Talk in Madison Hall Local TPS chapter and the TPS Journey for Justice bus riders  

Explicit goals of day – By the end of the day . . .

  • Educate attendees about immigration policy and social movements in:
    •  Eritrea,
    •  Colombia,
    •  Germany,
    •  Jordan,
    •  The United States, and
    • Harrisonburg
  • Inform attendees about ways that they can get involved in the immigration rights movement in the Harrisonburg area
  • Participants will understand the role that they have in influencing the immigrants’ rights movement through such acts as voting, allyship, volunteering

 

Implicit goals of day – By the end of the day . . .

  • Engaging the JMU community and the larger Harrisonburg community over these ideas of immigration policy, movements, and framing in a positive and healthy way
  • Attempt to reframe the way people think about immigrants, specifically with the writing on the wall (“undocumented” versus “illegal”, etc.)
  • Attendees will recognize the similarities and differences between immigration policies and movements in the US and abroad
  • Attendees will achieve a better understanding of the immigrant community in Harrisonburg

 

Objectives of wall writings:

  • Inform attendees about the topics at each table
  • Explain any pertinent acronyms/terms
  • Provide general guidelines about inclusive language
  • Offer a space for people to interject their own ideas

 

Objectives of tabling portion:

  • Inform attendees about the immigration policies and movements in:
    •  Germany and Jordan,
    •  Colombia and Eritrea,
    •  The United States, and
    •  Harrisonburg
  • Engage attendees in impactful and interesting conversations/activities
    •  These will vary between tables, and activities will be used heavily at the US/Harrisonburg tables

 

Objectives of speaker portion:

  • Provide professional views on the current immigration policies/movements in the US as well as Harrisonburg
  • Expose attendees to avenues through which they could get involved with the two organizations represented
  • Showcase the barriers/circumstances of the lives of immigrants in Harrisonburg

 

Timing Process Who?
11:00-1:00 Tabling Portion – SSC 1075

·       Attendees can move freely through the room to the different tables we have set up and learn the information we’ve collected for them

·       Attendees can engage with our ideas on the walls, and add their own perspectives

 Group Members:

Jack Hales

Nancy Haugh

Liza Vanyan

Claire Hietanen

Kathryn Walker
1:00-2:00 Julio Reyes

·        Challenges of dealing with the immigration process – serious backlogs, expenses, and paperwork; no way to become a legal permanent resident if you become undocumented on your own

 Julio Reyes – Immigration Program Coordinator at New Bridges
2:00-3:00 Kiley Machart

·       Speak about the demographics of the refugee population in Harrisonburg

·       Give information about CWS and what they do

·       Talk about the process refugees go through before coming to Harrisonburg

·       Discuss refugee camps

 Kiley Machart – AmeriCorp Representative at Church World Service
3:00 Close-Out of Teach-In and Invitation to join us at the TPS Journey for Justice Information Meeting Jack Hales

The style of the Teach In as a World Cafe, as opposed to presenting on immigration in general as a lecture style, allowed us more room to engage our audience because the audience had to actively seek out the information we presented on by traveling to the tables. Additionally, being in SSC 1075 allowed us the opportunity to fully utilize the white boards present in the space. On these white boards, we were able to allow participants to write down questions they had about the presentations that we could answer at a later time, engage other participants in what they found to be the most impactful part of the presentations, reflect on what the word “immigrant” means to them, share where their family immigrated from, and see both resources as well as next step/action pieces for staying engaged with the subject after the event was over.

In terms of the topics we chose, we wanted to focus on both current events as well as issue-specific political opportunity structures that existed within our topics/countries that would lend themselves to meaningful discussion. For our country specific, comparative tables, this meant that we looked at Colombia specifically because of the relevance the Venezuelan migrant crisis lends to the topic of immigration; for Germany and Jordan, this was the Syrian refugee crisis and a desire to provide an academic discussion about immigration policy as a response; for Eritrea, this meant recognizing that the demographic of refugees in Harrisonburg includes a significant portion of Eritreans, thus making them a necessary component of local immigration policy; and for the U.S. policy table, this meant considering the migrant caravan and capitalizing off of the conversation the caravan garnered. As a result, we were able to look at these opportunity structures and realize that talking about these countries and policies specifically would be most in line with our learning objectives for the event.

 

During the Teach-In, we provided resources for our participants and would like to extend these resources to our website viewers. These opportunities are locally based in the Harrisonburg community and Shenandoah Valley. The local Congressional representative is Ben Cline (R) – 6th District; Senators Tim Kaine (D) and Mark Warner (D).

You can utilize the US Capitol switchboard by calling (202) 224-3121 and requesting to speak with the desired representative and Senator. If you’re uncomfortable making phone calls, you can text ResistBot at 50409 with the message “RESIST” and they will let you text a message to your representative. 

Church World Service, CWS, offers plentiful volunteer opportunities for anyone looking to assist the refugee community or to facilitate their transition of movement into the Harrisonburg community. Driving families, cultural orientation class assistance, childcare, office volunteering, and donations (clothes, toys, furniture, and food) are just a few of the options offered. You can go to their website, here.   

NewBridges Immigrant Resource Center (NBBIRC) is located in Downtown Harrisonburg between Beyond and Cuban Burger. The Center assists immigrants in the community with their USCIS paperwork along with other documentation, and helps ease the process of adjusting status’ (TPS, DACA, work authorization, citizenship). NBBIRC connects immigrants to social services they seek such as health and hospital bill forgiveness and community resources.

If you are looking to get involved on campus and raise volunteerism and activism on campus check out the following groups!:

  • JMU Latino Student Alliance (LSA)
  • JMU African Student Organization (ASO)
  • JMU Women of Color (WoC)
  • JMU Students for Minority Outreach (SMO)
  • JMU Center for Multicultural Student Services (CMSS Madison Union 207)

Immigration & Refugees in the Shenandoah Valley/Harrisonburg

Immigrant Harrisonburg Presentation Overview

Eritrea and Colombia Table Presentation

Germany Table Video Presentation

Jordan Table Video Presentation

In-Class Issue Update Presentation

Interview with Madiha Patel

Interview with Madiha Patel

by John Kinney and Raven Archer

Discussing issues of cultural dissonance, civil instability, Muslim treatment after 9/11 etc., Madiha Patel shares her experiences during and after her transition from Pakistan to the United States at age 12 – conducted by John Kinney and Raven Archer

Interview Summary and Analysis
Madiha Habeeb Patel
The overall immigration platform has come a long way in terms of attitudes, reception, border policies and perceptions. Owing to the increasingly popular cultural diversity, and cultural competence engendered by globalization, the United States natives and systems are becoming more accommodating of other cultures. Further, people are moving away from the overt racism setup that discriminated upon and disregarded immigrant’s races. Things are looking up as border policies and life chances are becoming better. In Harrisonburg, where the immigrants make up 9.7 percent of the population, respectively 33.6 percent are naturalized and 12.5 percent and employed (New American Economy 1). This paper analyses an interview conducted on one such immigrant, Madiha Habeeb Patel; whose transition from Pakistani to American citizenship has been commendable. This paper seeks to explore some of the social, economic, and labor factors that have been vital to the settling in of the immigrant families. It also looks at the assimilation process that Madiha Patel went through and the changes in perceptions of immigration throughout her transition; such experiences that paved the way for second generation immigrants like her 4 daughters and also shaping sentiments among the welcoming Americans. Lastly, the paper explores the changing attitudes between the two communities involved, to understand the assimilation barriers involved in the process. While some Americans still have problems with immigrants, most do not harbor any ill – will against them. In fact, some feel that immigration is a plus for the country as it expounds the labor market and the United States economy in general. This interview also seeks to establish that, poor economic opportunities underly most of these movements as most skilled immigrants flee unemployment, and poor wage jobs in their countries to better-paying jobs in United States. The attitudes of the people in the receiving country, as well as racial relations, affect integration and come in handy when cultivating a willingness to become American.

Migration
The actual immigration process for Habeeb Patel was almost a dream come true for any kid in a war-torn country like Pakistan. Habeeb Patel moved to America in 1998 in the company of her parents and her siblings. The main reason behind their fleeing their home country of Pakistan, was the civil instability in their hometown of Karachi. The political instability was a source of insecurity, and only a small percentage of Pakistani natives who were financially capable, were able to escape to the United States to secure their futures. An added advantage that aligned with their movement goals was that the family was sponsored by her grandparents and did not have to apply for asylum or come as illegal immigrants in the United States. This sums up some of the push factors in the home countries that forced people to relocate to the United States. It also supports the idea that Africa, Asia, and Latin America have been the biggest sources of the United States and Europe based immigrants.
The fact that Madiha already had family who were already living in the United States indicates some of the immigration trends that have existed for many years. Although sponsored by her grandparents, her aunt accommodated them for almost 3 months until they could move to their own apartment comfortably. As long as they were on sponsorship, they were legal and had the freedom to seek education and employment in the United States. Her argument that the parents were able to get on their feet and find their employment provides the evidence that at that time, the United States policies of ethnic distinctiveness and third-rate treatment of immigrants were fading away. From her attitude and confident tone, we learn that the systems instilled confidence in them because they were fair to all the immigrants. For instance, she says that her father did not take long to land a good paying job which enabled him to provide for his family. Overall, the social and economic integration framework accommodated immigrants at that time.
Several factors came into play when it came to Madiha Patel. To start with, Pakistan was unstable and crime-ridden at that particular time so people had to flee the country and seek asylum elsewhere. Another economic factor that came into play was the high unemployment rates as well as the low-income earner jobs. Despite college education, the job opportunities were still limited, and the parents had to look for a country that could absorb them even for the limited wage scenario. The scenario is actually quite desperate in Karachi as there was little to no room for advancement or even improvement in the future. As she said, her dad was still supporting family back at home even after years of being in America. This situation reflects that the prevailing economic scenario in the developing countries is still unfavorable for many citizens.
The factors, on part of the United States, was the chronic and the dire need for low wage rate employment. Being a world class economy comprised of manufacturing and practical related work, it had a large number of opportunities for employment for immigrants, whether documented or not. According to Massey, “employers wanted employees who viewed bottom-level jobs as means of making ends meet other than the source of prestige” (39). The interview confirms the recent statistics of the United States Economic and employment sector. As of 2012, 12.5 percent of the immigrant population of Harrisonburg was in the employed forced labor (Flum 1). The United States values the immigrants with technical specialty especially in mathematics, technology and sciences and for that, these immigrants scoop key positions in the manufacturing, transport, and other technology sectors for an above average wage.
Several resources, social ties and legal procedures came in handy towards boosting the application and the acceptance of such naturalization status. As concerns the law, Pakistan had kept very commendable standards when it came to complying with the international immigration policies. Because of that, it was fairly easy for Habeeb Patel and her family to navigate to the United States. Furthermore, the regulations were fair and did not discriminate against people based on policies. They also favored the immigrants and increased the acceptance chances for her. On the social scene, the family survived due to its connections with relatives here in America. Without such support, the process of settling down and navigating across the country would have been much more difficult for Habeeb Patel and her family. Additionally, the training and the financial support received from her grandparents and aunt as sponsors came in handy when getting settled in.

Integration
In regards to fitting in, the economic and the social front were quite favorable to Habeeb Patel. It appeared that it was quite easy for her to assimilate into the economic culture of the United States. The interview indicates that she came to the states as a minor and started middle school in Ellicott City, Maryland. The fact that the application for citizenship was successful proves that the system in the United States was more open for the skilled labor that came from these immigrants. The economic climate favored immigrants too as it offered everyone an almost equal chance of getting into a good school based on academic merit, as well as an employment opportunity thereafter. Her Indian husband was admitted to medical school, and even after graduating, it was possible for him to get employment in most parts of the south. This means that the economic situation allowed for the vertical mobility of the skilled immigrant labor. As for her, she had an opportunity to acquire a job even without training. This proves that the labor system was accommodating and gave people from outside of the United States a chance to practice and be better at the particular job.
Additionally, Madiha’s children grew up experiencing assimilation differently, being second generation immigrants. Particularly looking at cultural assimilation and demonstration, Patel explains her oldest daughter as being very in tune to her Pakistani culture while still also noticing an amount of assimilation. Patel states, “Once I moved here just the adapting and then just having the culture shock of how everything different it was not like, nobody told me that it would be so difficult and that it would take forever kind of to get used to.” In a sense, Patel paved the way for her daughters to be able to be express their Pakistani culture while also claiming their American identity. “You know like in fact my daughter it was just so funny she came down in a Pakistani outfit like the traditional outfit and that’s how she went where I was fighting to not choose to wear that and she is so comfortable and proud of it and she wanted to wear that and it was just so interesting for me to process that you know the confidence that she had to present or to express her culture and yet I was having such a I was kind of ashamed of it.” Like to the TEDTalk with Aziz Ansari, we see this idea of immigrant parents facing difficulties that their American born children may not experience, or experience differently.
Lastly, the entry into institutions like schools and social groups seemed structural and civic, as there appeared to be no power struggles in play. Overall, this segment proves that both the immigrants and the host are adopting a new perspective when it comes to assimilation. The visitors are more enthusiastic and determined to attend schools and compete for the top-notch job positions. This fact proves that the system and the attitudes foster self-determination and confidence among the people.
In regard to reception and social integration, every area felt like home right away. In the interview, Habeeb Patel states that her peers and the teachers at the schools were extremely kind and supportive of her endeavors. Even though a few people victimized her Muslim status following the 9/11 attack of the United States, it appears overall, the reception was warm and inviting. Even after moving from Maryland to Harrisonburg where the cuisine, customs and the routines slightly differed, she adopted and made friends. This segment cites that American’s attitudes towards these problems were changing and becoming more accepting. Never once did she ever feel rejected or the need to move back to her homeland.
In regard to the relationship with other people, Habeeb Patel blended in because she had shed the aspect of ethnic distinctiveness. That is why she had no trouble marrying an Indian immigrant; as she stated in the interview, Indian and Pakistani cultures differ. However, even though their cultures and norms differed a great deal, they found common ground for their children because, at that point, their personal cultures were not a factor anymore. She says that even though they valued the languages, customs and traditions of their original cultures, they have moved from many of them and are now focusing on building an American home for their children. The attitudes of such individuals towards the American culture are positive. Her situation indicates emotional maturity seeing as she can identify with both cultures with time. More importantly, her willingness to associate with the American people is evident, as her interest was to live in a city whose housing system allows for proximity between members. This aspect proves that she has already established a sense of identity in the new setting.

Experiences
Learning the English language was also fairly easy for her seeing as she was enthusiastic to do so. She says that she had an advantage of attending an international school in Karachi where she had the opportunity to learn basic English. When she arrived in Maryland and started school, she took ESL classes and familiarized herself with the language and its basic requirements. However, she went out of her way to listen to the lyrics and sing along with American music CDs to become fluent. More interestingly, her pace of picking up English was much better when compared to that of her parents seeing as her generation was characterized by intense schooling and exposure to online and media platforms which sped up the learning process. In the interview, she says that her parents are still not as confident or strong in the language as she is. However, her fluency and prowess in the subject are impressive. This overwhelming difference between the prowess marks the separation of generations. Prior to the 2000s, the learning of such language was not as vigorous as it is in the information era.
On the other hand, her experience in school was pleasant. Even though she experienced some culture shock, she learned at the same time. The styles, preferences, and norms differed on every level and while she did experience culture shock she eventually became comfortable with the environment. Some of the culture shock she experienced was the dating relationships. In America teens dating in high school for fun was a normal occurrence, but in the Pakistani culture, it was not something that was done. Another area in which she experienced culture shock was clothing. The clothing styles were very different in the United States than in Pakistan. In Pakistan, the outfit of choice was the shalwar kameez while the Americans preferred casual body-hugging attire like jeans. However, this posed much more of a problem for her father than it did her.
As for the social and political assimilation, the American systems were fairly welcoming to these immigrants. Habeeb Patel gives a detailed chronology of the events that led to her full citizenship status. First, they scored an immigration slot thanks to the sponsorship program. After completing the required years, her parents applied for naturalization status, passed the test and became citizens. Habeeb Patel became a citizen by virtue of being a child of naturalized parents. This process reveals that during that time, the boarders were generally willing to absorb any individual who qualifies for the naturalization status legally; versus the now restricting immigration policies.

Membership
Madiha Patel’s attitudes towards United States citizenship were a bit unclear at the start, but nine years later, it is evidently positive. Leading to the end of the transitional process she confesses that she could not have been more proud of her United States nationality. She naturalized after her parents took and passed the naturalization examination. From there, she went through the assimilation procedure until she internalized the values shared by any American – born citizen. Even though she was not born in the United States, she feels as comfortable with the American culture as she does the Pakistani. Indeed, she says that lately, she rarely goes back to Pakistan as she misses her family back home. To her, America is home. These feelings could only come from a person who fought hard to be where they are. From her high spirits and her affinity to America, one can conclude that she feels American as opposed to being foreign. Even her attitude throughout the culture shock phases and the occultation was admirable and positive. For instance, post 9/11 when everybody sneered at her for being a Muslim, she kept the attitude that stress and grief pushed the people to such lengths of being awful. With time, she discovered and appreciated the diversity in the United States, found her footing, and fit in like any other American.
Many of her relatives are fortunate to be living in the United States so she feels no obligation to go back to Pakistan. Although her uncle, his wife and children still live in Pakistan, there are many factors at play that hinder her from returning, including financial restrictions and a decreasing desire to go back. She says that her father sends money to her uncle and aunt in Pakistan but that is as far as it goes. She does, however, donate to a charity in Pakistan that performs philanthropic work. One can conclude that the determination that she has towards remaining in America and failing to visit her home is a direct source of being a proud American citizen (Massey 40). As long as one feels at home, there is nowhere else to feel at home other than America.
Madiha Patel appreciates the fact that she has two cultures that she can identify with. She also feels proud to be a member of the American social, economic, and political society. Even though she still upholds the Pakistani values, she finds a way to balance them with the American ones. She also confesses that the social system has adapted her; as it has introduced new delicacies which cater to the vastly diverse population of Harrisonburg.
Conclusion
The immigration scenario in the United States is taking a new shape. As opposed to earlier times where the immigrants were third-rate and took only the slave job positions, the scenario is changing by the day. The interview of the Pakistani immigrant, Madiha Patel, concludes that immigrants are an integral part of the United States economy, which can be seen by the natives help with assimilation. Also, when it comes to ethnic distinctiveness in all the spheres of operation in the United States, most people value it less. Madiha Patel’s narration proves that the pull and push factors, based on the segmented labor market theory of economic assimilation because the recipient country, is in dire need of skilled immigrants from these low wage countries. The interview also indicates that the assimilation zone is swiftly changing, as different cultures are moving towards integration and diversification. The attitudes of the natives towards the newcomers and vice versa are improving. Immigrants are determined to overcome the cultural barriers like culture shock and assimilation blocks and are quick to learn English and find lucrative jobs, just like their American – born counterparts. When all is said and done, she feels American and accepts her naturalized citizenship. Patel succeeded in her acquisition of American citizenship because factors of economic integration, attitudes, as well as reception were paramount towards engendering a naturalized citizenship in Madiha Patel.

Works Cited
New American Economy. New Americans in the Harrisonburg MSA; A snapshot of the Demographic and the Economic Contribution of Immigrants in Rockingham County, the Harrisonburg Metro Area. 5 April 2012. 28 November 2018 .
Flum, Alex. Chris Jones and Sal Romero Jr. win Harrisonburg City Council seats. 6 November 2018. 28 November 2018 .
Massey, Douglas. “Why does immigration occur? A Theoretical synthesis – a chapter in the book, the Handbook of international migration: the American experience.” Hirschman, Charles and Philip Kasinitz. Handbook of International Migration, The: The American Experience. New York: Russell Sage Foundation, 1999. 35-45.

SOCI 318
John Kinney
Raven Archer

Interview Project
“Immigrant Harrisonburg”

Raven: Okay, so we just want to start with the beginning but before that can you just state your name for the record?
Patel: Yes. My name is Madiha Patel
Raven: Ok and where are you from?
Patel: I was born in Pakistan
Raven: Ok and when did you immigrant over
Patel: I immigrated in 98. 1998
Raven: OK And what were the reasons for your immigration
Patel: Two main reasons. One being the civil instability taking place in Karachi where I lived and the other reason was my parents were being sponsored by my maternal grandparents so it was just an incentive to kind of escape the civil instability and then move here
John: How did people treat you here
Patel: Really well. Well at least initially. The people would then. So I moved to Ellicott City, Maryland and I was 12? 11, 12. So I started middle school here so my peers were very kind, very inclusive and welcoming. So I had a very good experience transitioning here at that age.
John: Did you have any like major culture shock?
Patel: Yes I did. Oh my gosh um the idea of dating. that was yeah just the fact that people dated in school or just dated for leisure. The idea Um yeah I come from a very or at least back in Karachi, Pakistan around that time, dating was not a thing marriages were arranged. Occasionally people would like you know people would like each other but that was just not a thing so dating was a huge thing. Clothing was a huge culture shock. Food was a huge culture shock so yeah I was very shocked all around.
Raven: Were there any ways in which you would say you assimilated and your parents kind of, not stuck their nose up, but it was just strange to them?
Patel: Oh absolutely, there was a huge push back from my parents because if I wanted to wear certain clothing to them it was me alienating my culture that I was born in so I’ll give you an example. So the traditional dress in Pakistan is called shalwar kameez and my dad insisted that I would go to school in shalwar kameez. I didn’t want to wear that, I wanted to wear a pair of jeans and a pair of shirt. So my dad one morning he was really upset about it and he was insisting for me to wear a shalwar kameez so I kind of challenged him and said Ok fine if you wear a shalwar kameez, because there is a male version and a female version. I challenged him that if you wear the male version of the shalwar kameez to work I would wear the female version of shalwar kameez to school and that didn’t go to well. But It definitely ended there. You know I got grounded and got punished but he didn’t force me to wear it to school so yeah.
John: Who do you identify more with? Like Which Identity?
Patel: Oh my God. Identity to begin with is such so complicated and so difficult and then to have have you know half of my life, back in the day at least. Having my foundation years happen in Pakistan and then to move here and having the second half of my foundation, foundational years to take place here it was very challenging. I definitely I think it just depends depending on my environment so if I’m going to if I’m visiting Pakistan then I can immediately kind of click into it and feel like aww yes. The clothing I’m inclined to wear the traditional clothing and stuff but um it’s just I can identify with both identities my Pakistani identity as well as my American identity but then at the same time it’s never a hundred percent. You belong but you don’t belong it’s this strange space I’m constantly in yeah so
Raven: So how do you navigate that? Like do you have friends from back home and then friends here or do you have like a Pakistani community here that you’ve like identified with or found in Harrisonburg
Patel: So I’ve tried to … I’ve tried to kind of stay in touch with some of the friends from back in Pakistan but I think out of like 30 of them I’m only in touch with one or two and even that it is more of like a Facebook relationship like Oh Ok that’s great you know this is what you’re doing these days but I think all of my friendships are my close friendships and my acquaintances are all in the US and then yeah I definitely have friends that are Pakistani have Pakistani backgrounds and then I also have friends that don’t have any Pakistani roots or anything so
Raven: So how often do you visit?
Patel: It’s been a while I haven’t been back for 13 years yeah
Raven: Wow, so What’s the reason
Patel: I think, there’s lots of reasons. One reason, okay I’ll list it off. Not laziness but just hesitance I think that’s the right term. Most of my all of my family and extended relatives are here so my uncles and aunts from both my mom’s side and my dad’s side are here with the exception of one my paternal uncles he still lives in Karachi Pakistan but as much as I want to go back just the idea of going back into that environment um it’s not scary I’m just hesitant to do it and because I have a choice I choose not to to some extent. I will say this I did about 4 years ago my grandfather, my paternal grandfather was still alive who I used to be very close to. I wanted to visit him and he got really sick and passed away immediately while I was traveling to a different part of the world. When I got back I wanted to go back to Pakistan and kind of pay my respects to him but again there was political instability that was taking place in that area that I belong to so you know my dad immediately put his foot down “you can’t go it’s very dangerous people are being abducted” they were going after specific types of people and I kind of fell into that group of people so my dad was like “do not take that risk” because I have young children so there thing is like you don’t need to right now so that was the last time I really tried. I’d bought my ticket and everything so I couldn’t go then. Since then I just haven’t.
Raven: Wow so you mentioned you have kids
Patel: Yes
Raven: Wow How many
Patel: I have four girls
Raven: Wow and do you see the difference between them and yourself in regard to like your culture and stuff like what they have picked up on and what they haven’t, and stuff like that.
Patel: Absolutely well they love they love the Pakistani and Indian cause the Indian and Pakistani culture is very similar it intersects. They love the clothing they love the food they love the music, the entertainment. The cultural norms traditions when they hear it they are like “what do you mean that just doesn’t make sense why would you do that” I’m like “I don’t know that’s why we don’t value those kind of traditions” and we’ve kind of like moved away from those kind of traditions and norms in my household. But those like food, clothing and music is something that they’ve like grasped and they like hold onto tight. You know like in fact my daughter it was just so funny she came down in a Pakistani outfit like the traditional outfit and that’s how she went where I was fighting to not choose to wear that and she is so comfortable and proud of it and she wanted to wear that and it was just so interesting for me to process that you know the confidence that she had to present or to express her culture and yet I was having such a I was kind of ashamed of it which was I don’t know it made me think so I’m still processing that
Raven: So what was the immigration process like? Like Coming over here. You said you went to Maryland first?
Patel: Yes we moved to Maryland first. It was fairly easy. We did not have much issues because the regulations were not that strict I think it was our laws and our country I think was much more welcoming not as biased I guess in terms of what where the immigrants were coming from so it was a fairly simple. I mean you apply you know you get a response by a certain amount of years then you come you have to make sure you stay here for that period of time then after that you apply once you’ve had your green card for a certain amount of time you apply for citizenship, citizenship date comes if you are I think above 18 you have to take the exam and anybody that is below 18 doesn’t have to take the exam because it’s automatic citizenship from your parents so I didn’t have to take the exam my parents did. They passed and then and so we became naturalized citizens I think that was, It’s been awhile
Raven: So I know you said that it was a rough like political climate in Pakistan when you left so did you what was your status when you came here was it asylee
Patel: No we did not it worked out because we had that sponsorship from my grandparents we didn’t have to apply for asylum or we didn’t have to run for our lives so
John: How much family would you say you left behind
Patel: In terms of like immediate relationships just my paternal uncle, his wife and three children the one’s that I felt the most close to or had a very strong relationship with
John: Was it hard
Patel: Yeah you know my aunt and my uncle they raised me because I lived in a joint family system so it was like three families, my grandparents, my uncle and aunt, their family and then our family in one household so I mean we did everything together like that was your social circle so it was I missed them a lot when I moved here initially and then I guess with time you just kind of move on
Raven: So how did you end up in Harrisonburg? Like from Maryland. Why Harrisonburg?
Patel: I don’t know! Man, that is exactly what I asked my husband. So once my husband finished his training. As he was finishing his training. He is a physician by career or profession and he was just finishing up his residency we had decided like Yes we are going to move out to the west coast it’s a different vibe it’s you know more of our kind of feel and then when you’re applying for jobs of course you’re not going to apply to one job so he just kind of applied to everywhere and Harrisonburg was one of the places that popped up and he just applied he wasn’t serious about it but then when he they offered him a position. And just the position they offered him with the benefits it was just one of those things a no brainer. When you’re coming out of training and med school after that long as students you take what you can you know and like I said it was the benefits that really kind of won us over so that’s why Harrisonburg
John: If you could tell your past self anything regarding immigration and going through what would you tell you
Patel: Like the process or just the post immigration sort of experience
John: Post
Patel: I think like I said so kind of I never felt unwelcomed by my peers or my cohorts or even my teachers and everything in fact I felt they were very supportive. It could have maybe had something to do with the fact that where I settled. Like I said I settled in Ellicott City and it’s a very diverse area so yeah it was pretty good I think not until high school especially after 9/11. I think everybody will echo that like 9/11 changed everybody’s life across the board. And then especially it changed my life because belonging to the group that was kind of blamed for the whole event kind of like blindsided me. It really impacted me because people that otherwise were good friends of mine kind of like created this distance from me and I was only like 9th I was in 10th grade when that happened so you know my peers were kind of like my relationships with certain peers changed I started hearing like really rude and nasty comments about it and then there was definitely a lot of verbal statements that would be made that would just again were just very nasty by people that I never would have thought both those who I knew and those who were random strangers like walking down the street and it was very difficult to process that because I personally lived by this motto that you don’t blame a large group for somebody else’s doing and I so I had a very challenging time but I can see how you need somebody and something to blame kind of like maybe it is part of the grieving process or, not healing process, but definitely grieving process we need something to blame and that’s why so many people kind of went that route.
Raven: Alright so let’s talk about Harrisonburg. Do you like it?
Patel: Now I do. So I’ve been here for 9 years yeah So I’ll tell you the context right when I moved from Karachi to Baltimore, the suburbs of Baltimore which is Ellicott City. You guys have been to Brooklyn, I understand like how populated it is in just like the kind of set up of the city is that’s like where I grew up essentially so like Karachi in Pakistan is like the Brooklyn of the United States. So moving from there to like the suburbs in Ellicott City was just like “What! What do you mean the people aren’t walking around?” Because like the city never shut down right other than when the instability started happening and we started having curfews and it would get quiet in the evening hours but it was always lively so to that to Baltimore it was like a culture shock and finally when I got used to it then I had gotten married and then I moved to Harrisonburg which was another culture shock Like what “There is nobody on the road at like 5 pm” Now it’s different and because I live closer to campus it’s different but so initially I didn’t like it only because I was used to living into populated and densely populated cities coming here where you just had lack of uh the cuisine was lacking in diversity I mean the shopping was lacking and then just in general I was not feeling it was the best way to put it. But I think once as my children were getting older and they went to school I made new friends you know through other with other children’s parents so it started growing on me just because I finally had but its just yeah there’s not enough spaces in Harrisonburg at least when I moved here where you can go and meet people so that kind of hindered me Harrisonburg growing on me but once I started meeting people and nine years later like I can not imagine moving out of here it’s home
Raven: So would you say that Harrisonburg has like adapted since you first got here? Like Are there more restaurants that are like inclusive for you or places for like shopping that you feel like you can go to now
Patel: Oh yeah definitely I mean it’s grown immensely in terms of diversity and then this whole initiative to kind of bring the life back into downtown has really helped with that and it also really helps the fact that you have CWS, are you guys familiar that organization, so people are genuinely kind of in support of that so I kind of lost my thought. It’s definitely much more inclusive you have so many restaurants that are popping up that are more fusion based so they’re introducing several different types of cuisines it just seems much more friendlier and there’s like I said there’s spaces where I go and I feel comfortable being there and enjoying myself. Does that answer the question?
Raven: It does I’m glad that it’s great
John: Is it anything like you’d expected?
Patel: The city or the
John: Yeah or just America in general
Patel: Just America in general. That’s a loaded question
Raven: Did you have an idea of what America would be like when you got here then it was like this is not what I thought.
Patel: So I used to like I mentioned most of my mom’s side family had completely moved here before I moved here so we would visit occasionally you know to me there is so much hype around going to America and like it is so cool you know like the McDonald’s and like the Toys R Us. It was just so appealing and I couldn’t wait to move here because my life was going to change drastically like it was going to be cool I get to be the cool kid on the block in that sense at least in my cohort or at least in my peers in my environment back home. But once I moved here just the adapting and then just having the culture shock of how everything different it was not like, nobody told me that it would be so difficult and that it would take forever kind of to get used to.
Raven: So what are your relations like back to Pakistan? Like do you send money back to your family or do you
Patel: I don’t I definitely, there is an organization there that I feel very that I love dearly for what it stands for and I know its foundation and I’ve always I was exposed to that organization since I was like a toddler like once I could understand things I knew about this organization and I knew the guy who ran the organization he was like very approachable guy on the street kind of deal. He has done some amazing work he’s passed away since then. So that’s one organization it’s called the Edhi Foundation they would have issues over there like babies being abandoned or women being battered or children being abused and assaulted so this guy him and his wife would literally just go around the streets kind of like gathering people and providing that shelter and working in that shelter and working in their organization so they were very transparent with the work they did
So that’s one organization that I try to support as much as possible just because I know how transparent they are with how they expend their funds with what they are doing. That’s about it. I know my parents financially support my uncle and aunt there to some extent because just the job market is very terrible over there is a huge gap, income gap, you have your very you have poverty you don’t really have a middle class and that gap has just been widening until you know you have your elite and then you have your impoverished and then there is like a very small group that would be considered the middle class
John: What have been some of your favorite foods since moving here? Like new foods
Patel: Oh man I have so many but have you guys heard of samosas so it’s like those like puff not puff pastries. It’s like this really thin flat bread like very thin and then you put whatever stuffing you want and the most famous stuffing is like spiced potatoes like spiced mashed potatoes or like minced meat so you like wrap it up in a triangle and then you fry it. Those oh my God I could eat them all day. Biryani that’s like you have whatever choice of meats and then you like cook in this stew thick stew and then you have like parboiled rice and you kind of make those two things separately and then you put them together then you steam it together and its just oh my gosh it’s just beautiful another one of my favorite dishes again I could just eat it all day long. I have a lot but if I had to be stranded on an Island those are the two things I would like take with me.
John: Do you remember anything special about the trip itself over here?
Patel: Oh man That’s a great question. No I just remember being excited and I couldn’t wait to get here but I can’t I don’t have any images in my head of like the plane ride or anything, no. That’s crazy. I can’t you know I haven’t thought about it in years and now that you’ve brought it up I can’t even think of anything. I think the only plane ride I remember coming from Pakistan to the United States was my last time that I had visited back in 2006 no 5, 2005 that’s when I was, last time there and I just remember, I hated it and I couldn’t wait to get back home. I was..so when we would travel back when we would visit Pakistan we would go for the whole summer so you’d go from like school’s closed from June to like August so you’re spending your whole summer there. Initially it was fun but as I got older I did not want to be away from home that long. So that’s one plane ride I do remember It was the most turbulent plane ride. Over the Atlantic is never fun but it was so turbulent that everybody’s food had fallen off and people had gotten their clothes dirty so that’s the one I remember and I was like “I don’t want to get on that plane again”. So yeah.
Raven: So do you remember like what happened when you got here? You just moved in with your family that was here? And then how long did you stay with them until you guys kind of separated
Patel: Exactly so actually when I moved here to Maryland my mom’s sister was the one who kind of supported us. Initially when we moved in my dad was out looking for jobs every single day. He was lucky and blessed in a sense that he was able to find a job right away. As soon as I think we stayed with my aunt for about 2 to 2 ½ months. Both of my parents were very motivated to like we want to be on their own. We don’t want to have, excuse me, this um not only like not be a burden on anybody also not like so anybody would ever say that, “oh we did you a favor” kind of a deal. You know like you only welcome for so long.
Raven: like indebted to
Patel: Exactly even if it’s family it’s just people will only tolerate you for so long. Yeah we moved there we stayed with them for 2 ½ – 3 months then we moved out into our own apartment. And yeah
John: Do you remember your first friend?
Patel: Oh my gosh it was these three girls, Sajel, Ima and Michelle. They were just they introduced me to pop music and bought me my first CD to Backstreet Boys which I loved and worshipped. It was just so awesome. They kind of like helped me like figure out and navigate things “This is what you do, this is what you don’t do” so it was really nice. They would always save a spot for me at lunch and make sure I was just kind of getting situated into my new environment really well. So yeah they were awesome yeah. I’m kind of in touch with them but I keep telling myself that I need to make a genuine effort and like, write a personal letter and kind of like “Hey how’s life you by the way you were such a, you played such an important role in helping me transition into this new environment. And yeah
Raven: What do you think the transition would have been like if you didn’t have like friends that like kind of gravitated towards you from the beginning
Patel: Oh I’m sure it would have been horrible I mean it was so difficult to begin with right even when you have that help it so difficult to get used to the food even the water taste different right like everything taste different it’s hard to sleep Every you notice and observe every single thing that’s around you so If I would not have had those individuals from teachers to certain friends that I made I think I would have had definitely much of a more challenging time and I know it sounds funny to call it trauma but there’s definitely some sort, to some extent, there’s trauma involved that takes a very long time for you to heal from because of not only the cultural difference but like even ideologies and just the way people approach things and practice you know basic etiquette it’s different. You know so yeah
John: Any problems from like learning the language or before
Patel: Um a little bit. So when the kind of school I went to a private school in Karachi Pakistan and it was a British based system so you were taught English and you had to like speak and do everything in English so it gave me that introduction sort of right but then at the same time when I was going home I wasn’t speaking in English I was speaking in Urdu and then another like a not a tribal language but like a specific area where my grandparents had immigrated from so like a couple of generations we were all immigrants in that sense but so I was not doing that English primarily but once I moved here the ESL classes helped a lot back in the day they used to be called ESOL or something or at least in Maryland. So they helped but it’s still one thing learning it and just getting really used to it right because you have to learn to think in English and comprehend in English and like navigate in English so it took a while there were definitely times where even like so like the Backstreet Boys CD that actually really helped for me it used to come with the lyrics so I would play it and just read it and learn it you kind of mimic it right and you practice it that way so that was very helpful it took a while but I got it and that program helped and yeah everybody did their part in kind of like
Raven: Do you think you had a easier time learning than like your parents?
Patel: So my parents my dad did not have too difficult of a time other than just like the cultural parts of communicating in English right like certain things imply certain things right like there’s literal meaning and then there’s like what’s implied when you say something like that so he definitely had a challenging time but I think he’s learned to we all learned together My mom had very low confidence in communicating with it until this day. She’ll, she understands it like the basic communication she understands it and then she’ll communicate like with my children right so she’ll communicate with her grandkids in it but again it’s very basic but when it comes to like being outside and like really taking it she won’t communicate it because of just this she’s conscience about it she’s very self-conscience about it that people will think that what she is saying is not going to make sense and that it is somehow its going to be like aww that poor woman that kind of thing so she avoids situations where she has to put in that position to communicate in English.
John: Was there ever any other like any other country considered for the immigration do you know of that
Patel: No I don’t think we would have moved well I don’t know how bad it would have gotten for my dad right, at that point for him to stay but I don’t think at that point my parents were considering moving to another country they were considering moving to another part of the city which my grandparents were not in favor of at all and if just the way the cultural or the traditions are that you listen it’s like you listen to what your elders say so I think that’s one of the reasons my parents my dad didn’t push it with my grandparents and his thing was well okay we’re going to move out of the country that way my children have better opportunities and we can avoid we can get away from this political instability which was impacting them too but they were able to move past it especially my grandparents because they had already experienced it and they were kind of immune to the instability when they were living in India before Pakistan was created because Pakistan used to be part of India and then in 1947 they separated that’s when my grandparents immigrated to Pakistan because they were dealing with discrimination religious discrimination so
John: You ever wonder how it might be if you hadn’t immigrated?
Patel: Oh man I don’t know I mean I guess I can guess I wouldn’t have had the opportunities that I’ve had here and because I think back there I would have to access certain things or to fight for my rights within internally you know like whether it’s like I think my parents I don’t have a doubt in my mind that my parents would not have allowed me to go to college or anything but like to work in certain areas or be in certain industries have a career in certain industries I would have to fight that not only with my parents but my grandparents too and again we grew up in a very sheltered household because of my grandparents they their intention was to kind of protect us by keeping us as sheltered as possible not realizing that they were just not allowing us to grow and be successful in our lives or just learn you know protection is not always the way in that sense yeah but I don’t think I would have had the opportunities to live my life and pursue my ambitions as much as I’ve been able to being here
Raven: To your knowledge do you know if it’s like a lot of people leaving Pakistan to come here or is it just like a few people when it’s unstable they come over or is it like a constant kind of cycle?
Patel: Whoever can afford it to move to immigrate to one of the western countries they are doing it whoever can’t afford it are not doing it. Are we at the point of where we have groups of people becoming refugees? No we’re not there and I hope we’re not going to get to that point because there’s definitely a rise of the younger generation where those who went away to get educated in the western countries sorry and then coming back into the country to kind of revive it and really lay the foundation down for a strong country, for it to progress in different ways. So Yeah yeah like if people have the opportunity to move they do it but I mean affordability comes into it because it is very expensive
John: When you say affordability like how hard is it really like as far as money wise. Like you either can or you have absolutely no chance like you don’t even think about
Patel: Like let’s think about it in terms of like a ticket right it costs one way ticket from Pakistan to here average we’re not talking about deals that come up you know come up some days like about two grand or so one way two grand is geez a lot when you convert it into Pakistan rupees it’s a lot of money I’m trying to convert it in my head. I want to say $100 is about 10,000 rupees give or take so and to also put it into context like these your average Joe in Pakistan is not making even $10.00 a month that’s how difficult it is so you save you save you save and then you get your ticket after like let’s say so many years but then you also have to save for when you come here who’s going to support you are you know your relatives or friends and stuff so like it’s very expensive so my parents had saved a lot of money my dad had saved a lot of money. He had a very nice position um job back in Karachi Pakistan so to leave that you know I mean he saved a lot from that position and to leave that and come here it was definitely a big adjustment
Raven: Would you say that he had been saving for a long time? I don’t know was it like a thought in his mind “like alright we’re going to leave soon, just give me a second”
Patel: I don’t know if and we’ve never had this conversation it’s interesting you bring up that question. We’ve never had that conversation about like how long he was saving and stuff or even now how much he saves or I know he saves I know he has investments but he doesn’t discuss it with me specially and I don’t know if its because he just doesn’t feel comfortable or that’s just him and his personality right like he just finances discussing that with me has never been his thing but I know that just the way he is he is an accountant by nature so he is just frugal. He just likes to save and always worrying about like that rainy day that might take place so I mean I think that’s why he was able to help has been able to financially support my uncle and aunt to because he’s just really good about saving him and my mom you know if my mom gets like some like monetary present from her dad like you bet will save it she’s not going to go spend it and be like “Oh I’m going to go treat myself” like her idea of treating was “ I’m going to save and if somebody needs it I’m going give it back” so
John: I know here they have like a lot of festivals. Do you attend a lot of that?
Patel: Like here in the …
Raven: Like the International Festival
Patel: I have not been able to attend the International Festivals that have taken place here because
Raven: Oh it’s amazing
Patel: I’ve heard! And every time I have something that I had pre-planned and have to leave town for that but I know like a lot of my friends and acquaintances who are help in the organizing and really actively taking part in it. And It makes me so happy to see it take place and that it’s such a focal point in this community like people look forward to the international week and all these cultures and all these communities that live here are being represented which is just cool. So no I haven’t attended but I am aware and try to support it in whatever way that I can
Raven: Yeah you should definitely go
Patel: I need to I need to
Do you want me to tell you guys about like the weddings
John & Raven: Yeah Sure
Patel: So the Pakistani weddings are like a fricking week affair. Ok I’m exaggerating. It’s definitely at least 3 to 4 days of an affair no joke you’ve gotta have like your 3 to 4 outfits and everyday you wear a different outfit and you like deck out. Like you’re going to some masquerade ball. If you’ve seen it like you’ve got to bring on the jewelry you’ve got to bring on like those heavy embroidered outfits specially for women like they go all out. And then you have all these like traditions so we’ve definitely held on like we as in like the Pakistani and Indian diaspora community to our like you know like the expressive part the art part of our culture and we I mean we go out expressing it when it comes to our weddings. So like you have a day called mehndi it like essentially like a yellow party and you try to wear colors that are in the yellow family so like yellows and greens and oranges and reds. There’s a lot of dancing and not just like free style dancing like friends and family of like the bride and groom they’re going to prepare dances and like dances like weeks ahead of time months ahead of time and there’s like a competition the girl side dances versus the guy side dances and then there’s like a singing party too where you have like the more elderly women of the family will compete the two sides will compete in the songs right and you’ve got like this it’s called a toull it’s like a two sided drum and like that’s like your instrument and then you have all these voices like just singing the songs and whoever sings the longest the hardest knows the most words it’s just so much adrenaline that’s happening that day so that’s your mehndi. And then the day of your wedding it’s traditionally women wear red but then of course you see like now women kind of going away from that but same thing you’ll have like somebody will always try to have that kind of like leave a mark you know one of my family members the guy walked in not walked he rode in with a horse like that was his entrance and like family members and friends are dancing around him and he’s riding into the horse and it’s just like an amazing show except it’s happening and it’s live and it’s right there so that’s kind of carried over to this day and even those who my gen kids or individuals who were born and raised here who might not have been back to Pakistan or ever to Pakistan maybe visited once or twice they have held on to that parts like they want to have their weddings in that manner or express themselves in that manner which is really cool so yeah our weddings are kind of awesome
Raven: So how was your wedding? Was your wedding more traditional or how did that go
Patel: So yeah it was really my wedding was extremely interesting. The guy I married so my husband’s Indian and if you guys know a little bit about the Indian Pakistani politics or at least how it used to be back in the day and to some extent still today they did not like each other they still don’t like each other but I think at least the arts and the humanities people belong are much more welcoming and loving of each more so than those who are more on the politics side. But So my mother in-law and my father in-law they weren’t very happy with my husband’s decision to kind of marry me so I had a very odd wedding like they were all there but they had like this kind of like strange like face put on just to kind of like “oh we’re happy with this and yes we’re going to be supportive about this” and even though so the day of the wedding is thrown by the girls side right so I get to call the shots and even though it’s my event and I was supposed to call the shots I kept being like pressured into making my mother in-law happy she’s very traditional very like you’ve got to do it this way and the guy and the girl can’t sit together until they’re you know exchange their vows officially and I was like what to me that was so stupid but then I had to make her happy and more so than making her happy because I didn’t really care to I was like well if you want to do things your way then you pay for it but because I’m paying for it I’m going to do it my way. My parents felt like obligated to like have they were our guest and to make them happy so it was really this weird I wanted it to very low key and relaxed and stuff and I had to like do things a certain way to make my mother in-law happy essentially so it was really frustrating if I could redo my wedding I would. Totally would
Raven: You would make it more about you
Patel: It would be more about me exactly! I would have like a Barbeque in some huge park and not like dress up a certain and then just be limited to like a space where I just to sit and perform this like weird identity of a bride what a good bride is supposed to be.
Raven: So in that aspect do you see yourself more, more so like assimilated to American I don’t want to say ideas of weddings but it sounds like from what you said it was very traditional and it was kind of like this is extra type stuff
Patel: Yes and I think that’s I think more so well it definitely kind of aligns with the Americans sort of way of doing things but also progressive right like you always have had those certain voices progressive voices even in Pakistan yes they’ve been like kind of like pushed down uh un you’re the minority don’t don’t try to be all whatever but definitely helped to be here because I feel like I’ve been kind of gotten that like sort of power by being in that and being able to say to put my foot down and say no I think I’m going to do it this way or I don’t feel oppressed right because there are different types of oppression and depending on your environment certain oppression is not as oppressive I don’t know if that even if it actually is possible when you compare it to some extent but yeah like I definitely feel assimilated and definitely feel like having the opportunity to like kind of live my way or what I believe in.
John: In sticking with cultural events we talked about weddings what are the funerals like?
Patel: oh man that’s a good one I I mean nobody likes the idea of dying whatever and stuff but I love the way Muslim funerals are that take place because I’m Muslim as well. And they’re very simple they’re supposed to really be grounding and they’re supposed to remind you of the fact that like you don’t take anything back with you like literally nothing back with you. So traditionally as soon as the person passes away you’re supposed to bury them within like a day or two. Kind of a deal So if those funerals are taken back in Pakistan you have somebody pass away you take they’re at home most likely if they passed you wash the body in your bathroom or whatever kind of thing you, you know there’s yeah I mean literally within hours you will have that person’s body ready to go and to bury and everybody just comes together. And then there’s a way of wrapping for a male body you will have two pieces of white cloth that you wrap them in and then for women you have three pieces of cloth you wrap them in White and that’s it. You wash the body. The body is washed by the close family members and if those close family members are not present then the close friends and if not close friends then close relationships so you kind of like go down this like thing. But yeah and so it’s similar over here too that tradition has stayed very true in that regard where like My grandmother passed away earlier this year and she passed away in Houston within like a day everybody all the family kind of just like flew out there was there and then we the women because she had all her like daughters and her cousins here and her granddaughters or grandchildren rather we got together we washed the body there’s like three to four people who kind of lead it because again there’s a like process where you’re supposed to wash the body you start with the head that’s more like tradition it’s not necessarily religious the religious part is to get it done as soon as possible, come together and remind yourself like this is where we’re all headed. The tradition part is like Ok well three women are going to head it versus four women are going to head it. Kind of a deal of who’s going to be there. And the whole time you’re supposed to keep a white sheet over the body. So imagine like this is the sheet this is the body here and you put your hands here you’re not supposed to look but you’re supposed to the point of that is to maintain as much privacy as possible. To give even though that’s a deceased person that they have some respect in that regard they would not like to be kind of like to have their body out in the open in that sense. So yeah we wash the body and wrap it up. And just because the way things work here there’s regulations and rules here. We did it we washed her body and prepared it for burial the night before like Sunday evening then Monday afternoon you did we got together at the mosque prayed together and then immediately head to the cemetery to bury her. It’s very It’s very simple but it’s very like I find it very
Raven: meaningful
Patel: It’s very meaningful it’s very grounding in that sense. To kind of just like let’s get it together
John: Are there any like events for say coming of age like quinceanera, bat mitzvah
Patel: No we don’t it’s just one of those things like everybody comes of age you know men and women and it’s just Ok so that’s great
Raven: Still can’t date though
Patel: Well there certain things like after a certain age like ok so I’ll put it that way this way when I was younger like my parents didn’t care when I was like 10 or 9 if I played with my guy cousins but as soon as I was like 13 or 14 developing a little bit, looking a certain way they were like I don’t think you need to play with that cousin you can go wherever girls should play separately and the boys should stay so its like these unwritten rules that were kind of there and you just understood you know just have to keep separate so even if you weren’t thinking certain ways you have a natural now we split up so that’s the only coming of age thing I know it sucked like I can’t play with my cousins anymore.
Raven: Do you think you like are different in that aspect with like your children? Because you said you have four daughters right? How is that? Like are you do you think you’re more different than your parents? In that aspect of like dating or traditional things for like females.
Patel: That’s a great question. I feel like I try to be different consciously knowing how my parents were like “I don’t want to be like my parents” but then there are certain things that I as my girls get older I kind of just like from experience Oh that’s why my parents did it I just wish they would have explained it instead of just being just like no you can’t go here. It wasn’t like hey I’m actually worried like if you go and like I’m not going to allow you to have sleepovers because I don’t really know that family and even if I knew that family there’s a chance of you being hurt emotionally or physically kind of a deal I wish they would have explained that they never explained that just they were like no that’s it. What I’m trying to do different with my kids is like have that communication line open all the time. Does that mean they don’t question me? Of course they question me that’s the point of the kids to question their parents but I think at least they are able to at least my eldest is able to walk away like initially she’ll get upset and frustrated like why can’t I go on the sleepover then she’ll walk away and I’ll tell her and then she’ll come back oh ok I kind of see your point but you can’t always be fearful of everything you know you’re going to have to let me go one day I’m like I know
Raven: Just not today
Patel: Just not today when you can pay for your own insurance you go for it girl. So my eldest is 11 she’s turning 12 this coming January so we’re definitely crossing that line right like this idea of dating. what can I wear? what can I do? I’m definitely I’m not as strict in terms of dressing as my parents were but you know I’ll tell her you don’t need to wear shorts to middle school you want to wear shorts when we’re out together sure. You know after I hear certain stories in school some girl got whatever of course I’m going to be fearful so I’m like even though I want to have that trust that she should be able to fend for herself I find myself doing certain things that are kind of kind of like what my parents did to some extent so never say never.
John: Where’d you get your first job
Patel: Oh my gosh. My first job like actual paid job right not like an internship. My first paid job was at Rite Aid pharmacy and it was like the best day of my life. And I remember getting my first check. Oh man, I spent it on whatever I wanted. My dad was like “you’re supposed to save your money not spend everything” I was like “It’s my first check” And then my mom was like “You’re supposed to donate to a charity as a thankful thing” I was like “I know but It’s my first check, I swear I’ll do it with the next one” But it was awesome I had to fight for it my parents were not happy with me getting a job. They were like you shouldn’t why are gonna get a job can’t we support you? I was like it’s not about that I just want to learn and have experience. Then the next argument was well why can’t you get a job in an office and I was like you know there’s just no winning. And again, they have very different idea of what a respectable thing to do is and whatever those are just things you have to fight and I think they’ll always exist yeah
John: That’s funny Rite Aid was my second job
Patel: Really I worked from the 11th grade into my senior year into my first semester and a half in college. That was a good paying job at that time and my manager was awesome so I was like I’m just going to stick with it
Raven: So what do you do now
Patel: So currently I’m working part time in the office of Environmental Stewardship and Sustainability. I handle the money for that office. Which is not something I trained for but I’ve learned because it’s very different in a like a government institution to say. So I do that part time and then my other part time I’m working on my masters in writing Rhetoric and technical communication so I do that and then when I’m done doing that I love working in just being part of my local community and the non-profit organizations here so I’ve worked with several different ones but currently I’m working with Faith In Action which is you have about 26 congregations around Harrisonburg come together pick a social justice issue to work on and then use like faith as their driving motivation to work towards that social justice issue. So our current social justice issue that we are working on is criminal justice reform. We’re very passionate about it there definitely needs to be change so it’s just our passion our faith kind of drives us to be part of the larger community and doing good and so yeah
John: One last thing. So how is it intertwining the Indian and Pakistani cultures at home like with your kids.
Patel: It’s so blurry right because Well first of all like yes there are some differences but you can only tell the difference if you’ve kind of grown up in the cultures somebody looking from the outside is like well you kind of where the same clothes and you kind of eat the same foods you know little bit of regional differences like its going to the south versus going to the north and the food is a little more flavorful in the south versus the north it’s like “what is this” so it’s kind of like that with India and Pakistan. But So Riswan, he’s my husband, who he grew up here so again he held on to the clothing and the food but not so much the traditions. If anything he hated half the traditions he’s like they don’t make sense they’re irrational we’re not going to do this. So at home it’s kind of like Indian and Pakistani foods and then clothing on special occasions if there’s like a wedding or one of the religious events that we’ll go to. And it’s funny because I grew up learning mostly Pakistani cooking but then my grandparents and my parents and my aunts they would do certain Indian specialty delicacies but now that I’m here my recipes the little bit of differences between the Indian and the Pakistani cooking are just non-existent now cause like it’s just a mix match in my house
John: My family is Haitian and they like to try to wear, they like to try to mix their American clothes with the Haitian clothes I don’t really like most of it but do you guys try that?
Patel: Absolutely Oh my Gosh So like A very popular thing to do is to have kameez which is the shirt and it’s like, it will come from anywhere, like it will fall anywhere from above your knees to like below your knees and instead of wearing the Shalwar which is the traditional Pakistani or Indian pants they wear it with Jeans. Like that’s like the coolest thing to do. That’s what my husband does all the time and that’s what my daughter did actually today. So she didn’t wear the shalwar but she wore the shirt you know the kameez and she’s like well “I love the jeans, jeans are comfortable”. And then just the top is just like the representative, very colorful piece. So yeah Oh we do that. We even have our music completely at this point. You have your Urdu and English within one song it’s like going back and forth and you’re like how fascinating is that.
Raven: Is that hard to like process or does your mind like, it’s nothing
Patel: When I’ve had good coffee I’m on it. The day’s I’ve not had good caffeine I’m like what can we slow down like pause! What are you saying and what are you trying to say? But it is pretty cool right? The human capacity and the ability to especially when you’re bilingual or multilingual how you can just switch between your thinking ability and the language even but then it’s awesome it’s something I still I don’t think struggle with is the right word but have my days with like I’m really thinking in Urdu right now how do I translate that into English and actually put that down on the paper so people can understand it. It’s fun.
Raven: Yeah it sounds like a challenge. Well, that’s it.
John: Yeah, that’s all I have
Raven: I think those are all of the questions we have.
Patel: Awesome
Raven: Thank you so much for your time
Patel: Oh of coarse, my pleasure
John: This was good
Patel: Thank you for this opportunity. I hope my answers made sense to some extent
Raven: Oh they were great

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Interview with Ling Dong

Interview with Mrs. Ling Dong

by By: Claire Keeton & Trenton Heard

Introduction

My partner and I had the privilege of interviewing Ms. Ling Dong for the Immigrant Harrisonburg Project. She is a teaching aid at a local elementary school and is happily married with a beautiful young daughter. No two stories of immigration are the same and hers is a story of falling in love and wanting to see the world outside of her homeland, Sichuan Province, China. After a few emails back and forth about scheduling, Ling graciously invited us to her home to conduct the interview. We felt very welcome as she had tea prepared and an assortment of Chinese candies she encouraged us to try.

Ling first came to the United States in 2008 and stayed in Lancaster, Pennsylvania for one year. She was doing mission work and after that year was over she moved back to China. Her immigration story starts in January of 2013 however, when she moved to Harrisonburg and has stayed here ever since. Ling met her American husband in China where he too was doing mission work. They fell in love and she decided to move back to the states with him and start a family close to his family that lived here in America.

Connections to China

Throughout the interview she expressed how important family is to her and that family connections are more valuable than anything else. Her and her husband and daughter visit China every summer for about a month to see Ling’s family and when asked about the expenses of making that trip every year, she replied, “…I think for many families they don’t have the fortune to do this. We, I mean we don’t have that much money to do this but we prioritize…we have to cut some other costs…to make sure we can go back.” This summer for the next 3 to 5 years, her and her family are moving back to China so their daughter, Ella, can have a chance to grow up close to both sets of grandparents and it won’t be a 24+ hour flight for Ling to see her parents. Talking about the move, she says, “…[the] older I grow, the more I realize…family is, is very important and that…would be one thing on my bucket list. So…we’re going to do it sooner rather than later.” For as much as she misses her family, we were curious about why they had never come to visit her. She told us, “unfortunately, my family did not pass the visa interview and that was a lot of work and it cost money to do that…so for my mom as a traditional Chinese woman, that was not a pleasant experience for her. So she does not want to try it again.” I have personally never experienced a situation like this one but I can only imagine the discouragement and anger they must have felt after putting in months of work and money only to be denied; I can’t blame her for not wanting to go through that process a second time.

Ling loves and embraces her Chinese culture, “it’s under my skin” she says, “I know I’m Chinese…wherever I will be always be Chinese…” We saw first-hand examples of this throughout the interview, but Ling mentioned that she talks to (and scolds) her daughter in Chinese.  She also keeps a Chinese knot in red on her front door and another one hanging in her living room as a reminder of her roots; we learned that it symbolizes happiness and good luck.

Integration into American Culture

Ling had been learning English since middle school so by the time she came to the states reading and writing in English was not a challenge. Listening and speaking, however, proved harder than she anticipated. She recalls, “…speaking slangs or lingos is still difficult for me because those things you don’t get without the language environment…” meaning she essentially could not fully learn the language until being immersed in it. In terms of adapting to Harrisonburg, she said she is “…very impressed with the welcoming atmosphere and also I liked the different culture diversity [and] the groups of people from all over the world. I feel like there’s more new things going on in Harrisonburg.” She also told us how her neighbors and community were welcoming when they first moved in and supportive in times of need. For example, they cooked meals for her and her family when she delivered her daughter.

Ling worked as a middle school teacher in China. She wanted to continue to teach after she moved, but found that the only jobs that were initially available for her were entry-level jobs. She worked at A Bowl of Good preparing food until she became certified as a teaching aide.

Personal Immigration Experience

Before Ling and her husband could even book a ticket from China to the United States she had to start the immigration process and paperwork six months in advance. Fortunately, Ling told us she has not personally felt any “…hostile or unfriendly behavior toward my race or where I come from. So I guess I’m just lucky.”

Immigrating to the US at 35 years old is not a commonality among immigrants. Most move with their families at a young age and build their lives in America. Ling had established a whole life and routine for herself in China before she moved. She told us, “It definitely requires time and patience. I think for younger people, might be easier when you’re younger to when you immigrate at a young age you don’t have family, don’t have other obligations to fulfill. So you could be more focused. At my age, we had not a difficult time but quite stressful to just get back on track, you know. [I never] wanted to work those entry level jobs and I want my career back.”

She says her best piece of advice for someone going through the process of immigration and adapting to a new place is to surround themselves with people that are supportive and empathetic to your struggles.

“I just wish people who in that position dealing with other people’s lives…had more mercy” she says, “To find, to build a strong support system for yourself, to find people that come from the same place you come from, to find people who have similar interest as you. So you, you need, you need to have a circle or several circles…just to have a real life here. Stay away from isolation, really, really, need make friends.”

Other Interesting Findings

My partner and I were very interested in her perception of America and how Americans were portrayed and perceived in other counties such as China. Ling noted that they (we) are portrayed as “much bigger” and “violent”, both of which are accurate. She also talked about the difference between the school systems in American vs. in China. She said the educational philosophy is different between the two countries; Chinese education focuses on the learning and mastering the materials and learning goals while the American school system is all about ‘trying your best is all that matters’.

Another difference between the two cultures is the level of respect that is expected. She said they have much more table manners, and respecting seniors and people who are older than you is “a big thing”. Regardless of whether or not there is a familial relationship between the two people, in China you would address an elder as “Older Sister (their name)” or “Older Brother (their name)”, for example in China I would address Ling as Older Sister Ling even though we have only ever met once for this interview project. The aspect of respect in the Chinese culture carries into the school system as well; Ling recalled students get away with a lot more disrespect and have much more freedom to choose what they will and will not do in school here than they would in China.

Connections to Class

Throughout this interview, some of the answers and topics Ling talked to us about were similar to those we have discussed in class. One example is that most immigrants come to the US already having a set network or some connections for work before they move. Ling had nothing. She knew her husband and that was good enough for her. She had no idea what she was going to do for work, had no friends or family here, and did not know what her life would be like when she got here. As she mentioned before, she found a circle of friends and people that were in the same or similar situations as her to help her adjust to this new life and she basically created her own network.

Another connection to a topic we had learned about in class is that immigrants often have to prove themselves to be good or innocent, or meeting the standard for legal immigration. Ling said she felt that the immigration system is run on a philosophy of “guilty until proven innocent” or starting from an assumption that a person is ill-natured. She felt that it is almost as if the people that allow immigrants into the country are looking for reasons to deny them a visa or citizenship. She said that she also had to prove herself qualified for teaching in the Unites States even though she had been teaching for several years in China. She had to pay to take certification classes and get more education even though she was just as qualified, if not more so, than current teachers here. This idea reminded me of a presentation that we did on the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882. Under this act, Chinese women who were trying to immigrate to the US because of work or more commonly because they fell in love with soldiers, were assumed to be prostitutes or women of poor morals. These women had to prove to officials that they were not prostitutes and were assumed to be something they were not solely because they were Chinese.

In Massey’s Why Does Immigration Occur? A Theoretical Synthesis, he talks about all the different theories of immigration, as the title suggests. From the Segmented Labor Theory to the Social Capital Theory, most all of them discuss the reason for immigration being political unrest, economic opportunities, or variations of those two. Ling’s reasons were her own personal ones: wanting to be with her husband and wanting to travel while she was still young and able-bodied. The only theory that I could see relating to her immigration story would be Cumulative Causation Theory. This theory states that “over time international migration tends to sustain itself in ways that make additional movement progressively more likely”. It could potentially be relevant if her family or friends from China see the life she has made for herself in America and see how happy and successful she has been and decide to immigrate based on her story.

We also discussed in class how some immigrants either try to completely “Americanize” themselves or totally embrace the culture their home country. Ling is neither one of these extremes as she embraces her Chinese culture while still adapting and adhering to American norms. One thing she did mention that is very “Americanized” about her culture is the food. She says American Chinese food is not the same as Chinese food in China; it is much saltier here and it is adjusted to better cater to the area where the food is being sold.

Conclusion

Being able to participate in Immigrant Harrisonburg has been an amazing experience. I feel so lucky to have been a part of sharing and hearing the unique stories of people’s immigration on a platform that can be reached by anyone. We are so fortunate to be able to live in or go to college a town such as Harrisonburg; ‘The Friendly City’ and a place immigrants from all over can call home.  It was a privilege to meet with and interview Older Sister Ling and I sincerely hope people take the time to read the Immigrant Harrisonburg interviews and learn about the cultural differences Harrisonburg has to offer.

[00:01] Claire Keeton: Okay, so I’m Claire Keeton

[00:03] Trenton Heard: I’m Trenton Heard

[00:05] Claire Keeton: Um, this is for our sociology 318 class and today we’re here with Ms. Ling Dong, thank you again for taking time out of your busy schedule to help us with this project. We really really appreciate it for the second time. Um, could you just start off by telling us your full name, age, and where you are from?

[00:23] Ling Dong: My full name is Ling Dong and I’m originally from China. My age, I just turned forty.

[00:33] Trenton Heard: And what part of China are you from?

[00:35] Ling Dong: It’s called, why am I looking at it? (looks at microphone) It’s called the Sichuan province and its kind of in the central in China, geographically.

[00:46] Claire Keeton: Um, what year did you come to the U.S. and how old were you at the time?

[00:52] Ling Dong: Um, I came to the U.S. in 2008 for the first time. I stayed for a year in Pennsylvania. The recent time was from 2012, no no no January 2013 till now. I stayed in, yeah Harrisonburg.

[1:13] Claire Keeton: And how old were you at that time?

[1:15] Ling Dong: That was 2013, so five years younger than 35.  

[1:21] Trenton Heard: So when like coming to America, um what were some of the struggles you had to go through with regards of getting actually to the states?

[1:30] Ling Dong: Um, you mean through the immigration process?

[1:34] Trenton Heard: Yes, Exactly

[1:35] Ling Dong: So when I was in China, um my husband and I, we had, we had, to start my immigrant immigration process half year before, before the time that yeah we book ticket to come over here. So that took over half a year to just get all the paperwork done and enabled me to come over from that’s the China side happened. Yeah

[2:05] Trenton Heard: And did you meet your husband in China or did you meet him in the states?

[2:08] Ling Dong: I met him in China.

[2:11] Claire Keeton: Um, that kinda answers the question but was it a personal decision for you to come to the U.S. or did someone, I’m assuming your husband um or something influence this move?

[2:22] Ling Dong: Um, it is ahh, it is a personal decision and also it involved my husband’s input to make that actually happen. Yeah, traveling the world always a dream for younger me back then. And I had traveled to other countries overseas before I came to the states. So that, that seems to be a right timing for me to come over.

[2:55] Trenton Heard: So like what was your biggest concern about coming to the states? Was it like leaving your family, not knowing how to speak english or learning a new language or what was your biggest concern?

[3:07] Ling Dong: It includes all those aspects, be away from family for long time oh yeah was a concern. Um, because I had very close relationship with my family. Also the language I didn’t, uh, I did not worry about language too much but um, it was there cause, you know, language is the main way of communication and even in a different culture that requires a lot of communication.

[3:37] Trenton Heard: And how familiar were you with English speaking language? Did you speak any English while you were in China or did you have to learn that on the fly?

[3:45] Ling Dong: Um, for me, I um, well overall in China on kids have to take English class back to my time was from middle school and for today’s kids they start even early. Yeah to learn english. So before I came, I had some, I had some good vocabulary back then um, the one thing I really have to work on was um, actual talking, speaking. Yeah using that language as a way to verbally communicate with people. So I was pretty good at um, read and write, but the listening and speaking part I had to, I realized later that was harder.

[4:35] Trenton Heard: Now I know like when people learn like another language, everythings is really proper. Um like just like America has a like a lot of slang, a lot of like different ways of people saying things. Um how hard was it for you to learn like the different slangs or the different like I guess like lingos that people say you know depending on where you live too.

[4:54] Ling Dong: Oh, speaking slangs or lingos is still difficult for me cause those things you don’t get without the language environment, without, I mean outside of that, that culture. So I did not know, I did not know much of the slangs before I came and I could not understand what people mean when they use imply those in their, in their, uh talking. Yeah so that I think that’s a challenge for me as uh, yeah as a second or no, uh as someone who speaks english as second language.

[5:31] Claire Keeton: Um, and you mentioned that Pennsylvania was the first place you moved to, what brought you to Harrisonburg?

[5:39] Ling Dong: Harrisonburg, So, um, well my husband he found a job in Harrisonburg. So that’s why we came here.

[5:53] Trenton Heard: And do you like Harrisonburg, do you think it’s pretty culturally diverse here? How do you like living in a place like Harrisonburg?

[6:01] Ling Dong: Oh, I didn’t know much about Harrisonburg before I came. I just gradually, um, I am very impressed with the welcoming atmosphere and also I liked the part of diversity in yeah, just the different culture diversity also the groups of people from all over the world. Um, yeah that’s just has been a learning experience for me to, yeah living here comparing the one year I lived in Pennsylvania. I feel like there’s more new things going on in Harrisonburg

[6:37] Claire Keeton: So Harrisonburg calls themselves like the friendly city. Did you find than it was in Harrisonburg or in  in Pennsylvania or just different?

[6:46] Ling Dong: Umm, I guess here. So I didn’t have, I didn’t have, um okay, I guess i’ll put it this way. I have better, a bigger circle of friends or acquaintance here in Harrisonburg because I had more opportunities to meet people and also more opportunities to be exposed to different cultures like hispanic culture and also arabic culture, but I didn’t have those opportunities while I was in Langster Pennsylvania. Yeah, I agree. It is quite friendly. The neighbors came to say hi to use the first or second day we move here. Um, yeah communities been very supportive and especially when the times in need, they cook meals for us when I delivered my daughter and yeah people brought meals too.

[7:46] Trenton Heard: So I guess that question i’m about to ask you, It should I guess be a positive one. So like when you came to Harrisonburg, whether it was Pennsylvania or Harrisonburg, how do you think you were treated as like a an Asian or like a minority because I know there is a lot of black lash between like, you know minorities and the majority because of things that may have happened for example, after 9/11, there were a lot of muslims that were getting, you know, hated upon due to their race and ethnicity because of what somebody else did. Did you feel any of that when you were in Pennsylvania or Harrisonburg?

[8:20] Ling Dong: Yeah many many bad things happened to people from minority, from different background based on their racial differences. Um personally I haven’t encountered any those hostile or unfriendly behavior toward my race or where I come from. So I guess I’m just lucky.

[8:53] Trenton Heard: Now do you face any of those stereotypes? I guess people have put a wrong, like Asians, Asians have, I guess small eyes or Asians are really smart or have you faced any of those stereotypes?

[9:05] Ling Dong: Yeah I head people like talk about those stereotypes like joking way. Um, I don’t see those. Um, so I don’t, I don’t experience with adults but I did hear those stereotypes from my students here in public school. Yeah they would have be brave to come over and ask me those questions like do all asian people you know have this kind of eyes. Yeah, people tend to have those stereotypes such as Asians are good at math. Um, well they work hard, they work  lot harder than kids here so. But not everybody, so that’s not true to everyone and yeah, I did get asked those questions.

[9:57] Claire Keeton: I know we last time about how you’re like in the public school system as a teaching aide, was that your first job coming to Harrisonburg or did you do that in Pennsylvania as well?

[10:06] Ling Dong: Um, that’s what I did in Pennsylvania through a volunteer program, but in Harrisonburg, my first job was very entry level. I work at the cafe, so like food service. So I serve and I prepare food and yeah for the customers.

[10:27] Claire Keeton: And where was that?

[10:28] Ling Dong: That was um a bowl of good, if you know. It’s a local restaurant a bowl of good. It’s on Mount clinton pike near EMU. Not far from here.

[10:42] Claire Keeton: Um, Did you feel that as an immigrant, would you have, I’m going to rephrase this question, would you have gone straight into teaching? Do you feel like coming in from a new place if you were not an immigrant do you feel like that had any affect on you having to get like an odd job before you got back into your teaching?

[11:03] Ling Dong: Um, I feel that way. I think that’s true in my case because I was a middle school in China before I came. Um, I see it more as a professional job then those entry level jobs. But um after coming here, I sense there is a gap for me to go straight back to a professional job without any further training or you know, certificates to prove that I am qualified to do those things. So I had to go through the system to you know to have those paperwork to show. Yeah, I so that, that takes time and takes money to go through the training process. I had to go back to school, take classes too, to be able to be where I am at now.

[11:56] Claire Keeton: So even though you were just as qualified, if not more, and were doing essentially the same you felt you had to still prove yourself even though you had a great job in China, in Pennsylvania, is that what?

[12:08] Ling Dong: Yeah I think so. I think here in the states for people to accept you, especially academically, they have to or we as immigrants, we have to show people that we, we know, um, we know what they need and we can provide that. So we have to really prove that for people here before they hire us. I feel that way.

[12:36] Trenton Heard: How hard was it for you to go through that process? I know like going through the immigration process was hard, you know had to do all the paperwork. How hard was it for you to, i’m sorry, Claire said it to prove yourself and get through that system of like proving yourself to become a teacher in America.

[12:52] Ling Dong: How hard that is?

[12:53] Trenton Heard: Mhmm

[12:54] Ling Dong: Um, It definitely requires time and patience. Um I think for younger people, might be easier when you’re younger to when you immigrate at a young age because you don’t have family, don’t have other obligations to fulfill. So you could be more focused. At my age, we had not a difficult time but quite stressful to just get back on track, you know. Um I never, I mean I never, I never wanted to work on those entry level jobs and I want my career back. So yeah, just have to cross those hurdles and to put work into it.

[13:48] Claire Keeton: How often to do you go home to visit family and friends?

[13:55] Ling Dong: We go back almost every summer for about a month to see my family and friends there.

[14:04] Trenton Heard: And I know like going overseas especially China, it’s really expensive, and you know it’s a lot of work and going through that process. Um, is there every a time where you feel like it’s become too much to go back every summer or is there a time where they’ve come over here to visit you?

[14:20] Ling Dong: It is expensive to make that trip. Um, for I think for many families they don’t have the fortune to do this. We, I mean we don’t have that much money to do this but we prioritize so we, we do our best to make it happen so we have to cut some other costs and yeah, to make sure we can go back. It is more expensive.

[14:51] Claire Keeton: I know last time we were here you mentioned that you’re actually permanently moving back. Is there like a reason other than your family that uh, but that’s going to be put in motion soon or is it mainly because you miss your family and you want Ella to grow around them.

[15:09] Ling Dong: Were not moving back permanently, but we are moving back for a certain amount of time like where looking at three or five years to live back, to be with family and yeah, it’s older I grow, the more I realize you know family is is very important and that will be, that would be one thing in my bucket list. So yeah, we’re gonna do it rather than later.

[15:47] Trenton Heard: So coming over to the states, has your family ever wanted to come visit the states or have they ever wanted to see like the big cities like New York or D.C. , like have they ever been interested in coming to do all that stuff?

[15:59] Ling Dong: Um, we did invite my family come over and they showed interest coming over but in reality, the visa is always, always a struggle to to get it, to get that done. So unfortunately my family did not pass the visa interview and that was a lot of work and it cost money to do that. Um so for my mom as a traditional chinese women, and that was not a pleasant experience for her. So she does not want to try it again. Speaking of sightseeing in bigger cities, while China is quite big and some areas that were really developed so I don’t, um, that’s not a big drive for my family to come over. I think it is family is the main reason why why we want to be there or here.

[17:01] Trenton Heard: So like, um, I guess like a big thing is America is the land of the immigrants, you know let all the immigrants in or whatever, but as you said it’s hard to get a visa to come visit the states, even to come for vacation. Um, why do you think it’s easy for americans to get a passport and visit any country they want on vacation but it’s hard for anyone to come visit the United States for vacation?

[17:21] Ling Dong: Well there is a word called privilege. So Americans, if we say it more precisely our American white people, they possess, I don’t know who gave them that power, but the world somehow work that way. They think, I know they are rich, highly educated and also I think in the money. Um yeah, that’s why the countries are competing against each other to, you know, to be rich and they have more, more say, um, as a global stage. I think right now still, U.S. still one of those, one of those who has strong voice internationally. So for Americans, um, yeah they had those diplomacy policies with other countries, so they have those privileges they can just go there without visa.

[18:26] Trenton Heard: Do you think like it’s the citizens of the United States are the reasons why the visas are so strict or do you think it’s more of like regards to the national security. Is the reason why they don’t want to give out that many visas?

[18:38] Ling Dong: Well the immigration process or policies are very restrict and they put that. They say that’s because of security. They want to protect homeland and you know people who live here, they don’t want let any dangerous people come over you know to cause damage here. Um but I personally think it is the nation’s duty job to take care of their citizens, to make sure they’re living life is safe here. And also I disagree on some policies that this country have been carry on because I see they have more restriction on people who are from developing areas, developing countries, or from a different religious background. So I see a system has put people in a place that their not worth trusting. Whoever comes, we have to decide. So it’s not, it’s not , it’s not up to the people who want to come over to this country to prove they are good people or not, it’s up states, up to the government or U.S. government to say you’re good or you’re not good. So like people even have no chance to to defend themselves. So they are sentenced by the government. The U.S. government yeah.

[20:17] Claire Keeton: Something you said last time that I found very interesting was that you feel and not just you honestly I feel the same way but immigrants are “guilty until proven innocent” when the whole thing that Americans like judicial system is innocent until proven guilty. But that was really interesting. You just put that into words because it’s clearly true for months and months of paperwork when you’ve done nothing wrong and you have every right to be here as anyone else. Um not to completely change the subject, but what was your impression of like America, Like what’d you think life in America was going to be like before you ever came? Like before you’d ever seen it for yourself?

[21:02] Ling Dong: Hmm, I guess before you go anywhere, you, it’s hardly need to have the full picture before you had the first hand experience. Um, guess I haven’t thought I would, I would, I would be able to get to know people from, you know, middle east that far or get to know people from Africa or get to appreciate the American culture and African culture here. Um, so those experiences happened after I came so before I came, I couldn’t imagine this. I think the U.S. , the country is more diverse than I used to know and also the life here, I used to think you know (Side conversation with Husband and Daughter) Um I didn’t realize how, how big the race issue. Yeah before I came. And also the gender issue. So yeah in China maybe people never talk about it and it seems like nothing like what’s happening here.

[22:41] Trenton Heard: So how do they portray, I guess Americans in America in China because I know like a lot of Americans now portray China and Chinese people is like oh

[22:52] Claire Keeton: Like on TV shows they’ll be like the really smart one and I’m just wondering if like in America it’s more like we are the fat ones or like the dumb ones, like how it’s portrayed in other countries.

[23:01] Ling Dong: Definitely the size is much bigger. Um, um, poverty and I has was, I just suddenly forgot Americans. Mm, Oh violent. Then the state so the country is not safe because everybody bear arms so it’s not safe. Um, so also maybe due to the government influence, people tend to think that there’s two countries or governments are not friendly with other.

[23:47] Claire Keeton: The American Government?

[23:49] Ling Dong: Yeah, Yeah, the two countries always in competition. Um, because the history that chinese people always and the government always wanting the chinese people to know about the history and how badly the chinese people were treated by you know, the western countries. And um, so there’s not a very, I personally want to say, not very friendly view toward U.S. government. Um, but since the exchange has been that you know the people who are not americans, you know, work and live in China and make China their home there. Um, so people see the both sides, the friendliest of American people but also the aggressiveness in America.

[24:43] Claire Keeton: It’s not incorrect, like there is so much gun violence here and it’s so significantly greater than anywhere else that it would make sense to have that in like other people’s perception of America.

[24:56] Ling Dong: So my mom over phone, my mom would ask me, oh I heard this on news you know, the shooting of school or people got shot and so how’s, how’s the place you are living? And I said, oh, this is a safe place. We don’t even lock the door, you know, let’s say um, so cause people not interesting to, to see the whole picture. I guess the same would happen to American people how they view China or Chinese, yeah they probably know there’s no way to find out the whole story, but people will take those pieces because media approaches or emphasis on those things.

[25:35] Trenton Heard: And is how that they portray Americans in like China? Is like Americans being or Americans and or America being like the violent country that has a bunch of like shootings, killings, and stuff like that. Is that how America is portrayed in China?

[25:51] Ling Dong: Yeah the violence is definitely one thing and also while people admire how well the nature reserve, like the national parks, you know, the work that government has done to protect nature. So people are aware of that too. So there’s a beautiful country with violent and racial problems there.

[26:16] Trenton Heard: Now working, we understand that you work in a school. So kinda going back off the same question I asked you before, are you ever like, what are your views on like the whole bear arm thing and able to defend yourself for like kind of connecting that to like school shootings and stuff like that. What’s kinda your stance on that?

[26:39] Ling Dong: Oh well I definitely support gun control or completely ban gun purchase.  I mean if you talk about self defense, well if you have a gun it’s not self defense, that’s killing. Because yeah, there’s no either you die or the other person dies, so it’s life or death. Um, and also you know for people who do not carry guns or people who do not believe in that kind of self-defense, then they put themselves in a vulnerable place like students in schools. (Talks to her daughter) [27:31] Um yeah, I just don’t see why I know Um before the constitute founded or founding fathers, they put that in there too you know, to prevent, like dictator or government like or slave people so they have the arms to fight back for democracy and the rights. But now people are not using guns for those purposes, so.

[27:59] Claire Keeton: This is much less controversial, how have you incorporated your chinese culture into your home and lifestyle here in Harrisonburg?

[28:17] Ling Dong: Chinese culture is a, I realize it’s um, yeah under my skin. I know I’m chinese. The manner where, I mean yeah, wherever I will be always be chinese and also I have adapted to a new environment and I see myself um, has grown into a person who has extended capacity to embrace or difference in countries. So in this house, we cook chinese food and we appreciate mexican food so we have a diversity of foods. Um yeah, we use, we keep our language. I speak to my daughter in chinese, I scold her in chinese (Side comments) [29:26] Um, yeah, we celebrate chinese holidays here.

[29:35] Claire Keeton: So have you brought any like, what’s the word, like decor into your home that’s like traditional chinese, like do you have any like flags or like pieces or anything that um just when you see it, it’s just a little piece of home

[29:51] Ling Dong: Um for instance, that China knot in red, that’s one of the symbol, you know, for, for happiness, for good luck. Um, yeah we do not keep national flag, that’s a different, it’s very different from American, you like to fly your flag, in front of your house people do that, but in China, flag is more like government thing, we do not yeah, we don’t fly a flag around the house, but we keep some small traditions and chinese people would get together for some special occasions. Did that answer that question? I kinda get distracted.

[30:33] Trenton Heard: Yeah that’s funny that you say that cause like I know like America is big on like promoting the flag, you see the flag everywhere. Swim trunks, stickers on back of cars, flags around people’s houses.

[30:42] Claire Keeton: It’s like a decoration, almost like a poster

[30:45] Trenton Heard: So why do you think that’s different in America than like I guess like the Chinese people really don’t promote the flag like Americans promote it here so like the American flags on everything, clothing. So why do you think that’s different? Is it maybe the patriotism or like the patriotism?

[30:59] Ling Dong: Patriotism is everywhere in I mean in all countries they promote that or they try to. China also does they same thing. We just never associate that way, the flag. Yeah it’s interesting and here the flag is everywhere and yeah also maybe the type of governance here is um the election oh we have election there but it’s not the same here so people feel the distance from ruling the country. But here the government is making decisions not as people, but here people maybe feel strongly about, you know, they are involved in the politics, the decision making. They are electing the leaders but there we do not elect leaders so maybe that’s why.

[31:56] Claire Keeton: Um is there something that you like found really weird or funny just like really different about American culture um then you thought it was going to be or like different than like chinese culture, for example, parent, or like the school system or something that you just found funny that we do or like that seems weird?

[32:16] Ling Dong: Um, things people do that here that I think weird (Talks to her daughter)

Weird…Ummm I would not say things are weird, um but they are just different, I haven’t felt like weird or in a weird way.

[32:45] Claire Keeton: Like can you give an example of something that is just like different or just something that you weren’t expecting?

[32:51] Ling Dong: Oh, I can take my work setting as an example. Like the relationship between students and teachers. Um, so here, yeah, here, students are treated (Talks to daughter/husband) Well in China we still spank kids. She’s asking for that. Um yeah, here students, um I know In Harrisonburg a lot of students are from traumatized families, they experienced trauma in their lives, so they’re treated differently but in general, here teachers treat students with is this, you know, they can’t use, I mean, how do I word this? Mmm, so my impression is students can do anything they like at school without consequence. Or the consequence would not be the consequence I’m talking about that you know, would have the students in any sense of fear. I mean I did not mean the negative fear, I mean the respect or honor or the consequences at least they need to remember so next time they don’t do they same thing. But here, they always get away from what they do.

[35:15] Claire Keeton: Like you mean like talking back to the teacher, saying I don’t want to do this. They don’t have a significant enough consequence like respecting their educators.

[35:22] Ling Dong: I think um, yeah that’s one. And also and maybe the educational philosophy is different so the learning goal sit there when students cannot meet it, cannot meet the goals, the teacher would say, well, it’s okay we’ll try that later. Um, but the students never did their best. I mean the could have the potential to meet their goal but they had all kinds of excuses not to make that happen, there’s nothing that teacher could do. Well in China, you know, we say, this is the learning goal for today, you’re going to do your best. So then they need to show their best. Um but if you did not meet your goal by the end of the day for example, like three pages of math, you didn’t get those problems solved, then you might stay at school till we get through this.

[36:16] Claire Keeton: In China, that’s what would happen?

[36:17] Ling Dong: Yeah in China. I could call parents and parents could come over and we could sit there together until you get your work done. So that depends on, so if you really try your best, they can tell right? They know their students they can tell, you tried your best and didn’t make the goal, maybe my goal was too high than your ability so we could lower it. But for some students, they just goof around and didn’t do their work and they are going to stay here till they finish. Or we could call parents and parents is always, in China parents always unconditional cooperative with teachers. So that’s the big difference, so i’m surprised to see there, you know why there that um standard of learning, SOL, why the scores are not as high as some schools. But there is also teachers feel you know, they cannot push students like in China like teachers did. They are afraid of the stress, afraid of you know, that hurts, well hurts because nowadays the suicide rate is high from pressure of stress so afraid of that. And teachers they are tired, they cannot, the academic achievement is not that desirable.

[37:38] Trenton Heard: So the leniency is America is a lot more, I guess greater than it is in China. Kids in elementary school now can like pass with doing like the bare minimum. Cause I know like when I was in elementary school, like as long as you showed up for class and did a little bit, they moved you up to the next grade. So like in China, they make sure you know the stuff before they move you on to the next grade.

[37:59] Ling Dong: That’s right, that’s right. I’m not saying that the way China is doing education is great. I think there is too extreme, like too tight, too much work, kids did not have enough free time. But here, I feel like it’s too loose. Another one, another thing I discovered the difference is parenting. Which I appreciate what I learned from here,  I feel like kids at a younger age, they need to learn how to think for themselves. I feel in China, parents kind of did the thinking for their kids which is not good for later on development.

[38:44] Trenton Heard: Now is there like specific customs that you have either adopted like American customs or any Chinese customs brought over to America? My mothers Korean and she’s brought over a lot of Korean customs to our American household. Have you brought any of those over hear or have adopted I guess so called American customs?

[39:03] Ling Dong: Costumes? You mean the way we dress? Any traditions?

[39:07] Trenton Heard: Anything you do for instance, like my mom hates shoes in the house. So before you walk in, shoes are in the cubby and I see you have the cubby over there with shoes. So that’s like a custom my mom’s accounted too. Your shoes are off before you walk around the house.

[39:23] Ling Dong: Yeah shoes off in the house and I guess yeah. I personally appreciate neat, tight, tightness in the house. So i’d rather you know, things to be put away and I often struggle her because she’s opposite. Um yeah, we had more like table manners for say, um well her since that’s not why people you know, when you casual say you don’t really care about table manners or something but there and also respecting to respect the senior people who is older than you. It’s a big thing, you need to always be respectful, especially to people who are older than you, especially seniors. So we do not address people by their names. We always use title.

[40:20] Claire Keeton: Like Mr, Mrs. or Dr or like what do you mean by title?

[40:24] Ling Dong: Um yeah, your title, your work title, If you’re older than me, I need to respect you by calling you older sister Claire, so that way. Um, yeah, Now older people call me would use like younger sister Ling, so you like have that family kind of relationship with people who are not your sole family.

[40:51] Claire Keeton: That kinda answers my next question, so how would I address you?

[40:54] Ling Dong: Yeah you would address me older sister Ling even though we do not have that family tie so that’s yeah, they way you be polite, so the politeness.

[41:04] Claire Keeton: Um, how would your life be different have you not migrated to the U.S. and I know you were a middle school teacher you said in China and you’re still teaching here, um do you still think you would be a teacher in China, maybe a different grade or do you think your life maybe would have chosen a different career path or how do you think it’d be different?

[41:25] Ling Dong: Um, oh thank you for asking this question, Yeah, this is, this is due to a person’s personality and also expectations for life. For me, I always walk on changes and um I like life is full of adventures, at least when I was younger and now probably I would appreciate more stability in life. So if I never immigrated, I might be somewhere else and I see myself as a traveler, as a pilgrim in the world at least, why I still can move my body around and I would like to keep on moving, yeah.

[42:15] Claire Keeton: You said you’re a traveler, do you think you had not lived here, how high up do you think the U.S. would have been on your list of places you wanted to see? Because there’s like way so many other places, in so many other beautiful places around the world. How do you think the U.S. would have ranked on that list?

[42:32] Ling Dong: Um, natural scenery, Um U.S. has quite a few like world level, um, like those national parks. Yellowstone, Grand Canyon, so those places they are worth seeing, um yeah if I couldn’t come here, I might make my trip to other places to appreciate, yeah, the other wonders of the world.

[43:05] Trenton Heard: So I feel like a lot of questions people ask like people from other countries is like how is the food different. For instance, like your in America now and you’re a Chinese women, how is the Chinese food hear different from the Chinese food served in China or how’s the Mexican food here, different from the food in Mexico. Yeah, how is it different and how is it similar?

[43:26] Ling Dong: Um so people ask me the same question before, Chinese culture has you know, has um, that reputation. Travel from away from China, Chinese food here, lots of Chinese restaurants here run by people from south China called Fujian Province. So it’s typically um, Americanized food. The way of cooking is very different from real chinese food. And as for real Chinese food, there could be a whole book written to talk about it real chinese food or regions just like here, like New Orleans has their way of cooking, um Mexico they have their way of cooking. There is a state called New Mexico, so there in China is the same different regions, they have developed their way of cooking their food. Yeah some place favors more spicy, some places favor sour, sweet, so you get very different taste yeah.

[44:43] Trenton Heard: Okay so you’re saying who started these Chinese restaurants, Americanize or kinda develop their recipes to where they are at in the states? So like New Orleans like spicy so they Chinese food down there might be a little more spicy than it was like let’s say Maine, where they kinda like a more, I guess like a tart flavor, is that what’ you’re saying?

[45:04] Claire Keeton: I guess adapt it to where they are setting up their restaurant?

[45:07] Ling Dong: I think so. I think the Chinese restaurants here, they have adapted to American tastes but real Chinese food is very different and I cannot describe, you have to find out.

[45:23] Claire Keeton: Um so finally, I know we have taken up double the amount of time we were supposed to but if you could give yourself a piece of advice knowing what you know now about the immigration process and your life here in the states. What would it be?

[45:39] Ling Dong: Um, advice for the immigration process, I just wish people who in that position dealing with other people’s lives, but they had more mercy there, yeah um, for the second part, advice for my life here. To find, to build a strong support system for yourself, to find people that come from the same place you come from, to find people who have similar interest as you. So you, you need, you need to have a circle or several circles for yeah, just to have a real life here. Stay away from isolation, really, really, needed make friends.

[46:52] Claire Keeton: Well once again, you have been lovely to talk to. Ella, great entertainment as always, Um and we really really appreciate you letting us into your home for the second time and we are again so sorry that you had to do this again. But you’re very interesting to talk to. Thank you.

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Jose “Pepe” Rojas

Interview with Jose "Pepe" Rojas

by Callie Carlstrom and Westley Smith

Summary
Jose “Pepe” Rojas was born in Santiago, Chile and lived as an only child with his mother. He grew up in a dysfunctional family. His father, while very smart and artistic, was lazy, drunk, and violent. He left Pepe’s and his mother when was five years old. His fondest memories of Chile were playing football with his many friends. As a young adult, Pepe became heavily involved in drugs. However, his whole life turned around when one of his friends invited him to attend church. At first, Pepe had no interest in church but reluctantly decided to attend after his friend’s invitations. It is here, where he discovered the power of Jesus and Christianity. He later met a woman in the church who would become his wife, and they went on to have three kids. Due to his love for justice, he proceeded to become a missionary and moved to Brazil to receive training with Youth with a mission, Y1. He worked with them for many years, moving to Africa, Honduras, and finally the United States. He currently is a pastor at Grace Covenant Church and continues to preach his message of acceptance

A Citizen of the World

Pepe Rojas spent a significant amount of his life outside of the US before finally migrating here. Pepe has traveled a significant amount already and lived in numerous places and countries. This lifestyle of frequent traveling makes it so that he would not have any apprehensions about traveling far away, and possibly would be aiming to travel somewhere regardless, if not the US.  As a result of this, he doesn’t have any social ties that are holding him down into any one place. Pepe does feel like he’s a part of this country, but he also doesn’t feel bound to a specific country either. In that way, yes, he does seem to feel a part of America, but no, he doesn’t seem to feel “American” any more or less than he feels Brazilian, African, etc. despite this, he has mentioned applying for citizenship back in Denver many years ago, so he has likely gone through the naturalization process and is an American citizen. When asked what he felt that he left behind in Chile and Brazil he replied:

…because I was living in so many places, I didn’t have the, the strong connection with the country. I was, I feel like I’m I am a citizen of the world… Some people are very connected with the country and my food, my bread, or the weather or I am not, I’m completely different.

Giving Back

The factor of his immigration was an invitation to be a part of a conference called Mercy Ministries. After becoming a Christian, he wanted to train to be a missionary and volunteer in humanitarian efforts throughout the world. His involvement with youth with a mission, aka Y1, led him to aid in Equatorial Guinea, Africa. The organization that was organizing this conference considered his work to be a “mercy ministry”. They were curious about his ministry, so he flew to Tyler, Texas to meet with them. This was his first exposure to America.

Eight years later, after finishing aid in a relief effort for Honduras resulting from a hurricane, he and his family believed it was time to move on. How they actually made the decision to come to the US not a normal pull factor compared to what we learned in class. When asked why he came to the US he replied,  “we asked to the Lord ‘what is next, where we go’? And we feel that the Lord says go to the United States” This just contributes to what makes Pepe’s immigrant experience so unique. 

A Man of Faith

The primary pull source of his migration to the US was the international Christian mercy ministry known as Y1. He had been working with Y1 in various countries for very many years at this point. He knew that he could move to the US with Y1 as he has done in many of these other countries. Y1 would provide him and his family housing through an affiliated organization. This organization was well acquainted with Y1, and provided housing to him and other members for a very low cost. In summation, his housing was provided to him because of the very good relationship between Y1 and this housing org. He also had a pre-established social group through Y1. He had made friends through volunteering, and some of those members he had befriended lived in the United States. His friends helped support him while he was volunteering in the US and could not be paid a salary. He also had Y1 as a whole, as a social group. It could act as a community, or common ground with other members he did not know, that was already established in the US. He had many resources to get him to the US, and to establish himself with, as well as a social group. The only hindrance was the lengthy process of acquiring permanent residence, and his not having a salary.

Integration

Another important concept to discuss and reflect against this interview is an immigrant’s experience with integration. Pepe’s experience was slightly alternative to the norm in this category as well. He didn’t have to navigate a new labor market. Because he was brought here through Y1, he was given an occupation as a volunteer, eventually as a pastor in the church, and provided assistance in various forms, including through friends and acquaintances he had made years earlier who had since moved to America. He also didn’t face as much discrimination as others around him due to his good English and position in the church, which I’ll go into later.

What was similar about Pepe’s immigration to the immigrant experience we learned in class was his struggle for a visa. He could not yet legally be paid a salary on account of him not having a permanent residence. He applied for a religious worker visa, being told the process would take six months. It ended up taking about five years. This exemplifies that coming to the US for any type of reason can be a long and difficult process.

Reception in America

He received a considerably warm reception when he moved here. There were a few contexts of reception that lent favorably to this. One, he settled in Denver, Colorado. In Denver, the public has both a positive perception and attitude towards Hispanic people. In Denver, there’s a large Latino influence. For example; the largest Cinco de Mayo festival in the country is held there.  People have embraced the Latino community there, so there’s much less hostility or aloofness. When moving to Harrisonburg it was definitely a different environment but similar to the O’Neil and Tienda study, he didn’t notice an overwhelming amount of hostitially. Just like this study, this is mostly likely due to the influx in the immigrant population in recent years..

Another context is that he was living in a community with other immigrants here to work for the church. They shared similar experiences and were either in the same process of integrating or had already integrated previously and he could learn from them. They were all from many different countries, likely including Chile, so they could learn from each other’s individual cultures, while not feeling like the odd one out since they’re all from separate countries. He is already relating with other immigrants now, as well as friends he had made in the past who are native to America, and the local population was very accepting of Latinos.

The third context of reception, which I noted before, is that he spoke English. Pepe learned English in high school, and had been speaking it regularly for years now in other countries he was aiding in. This bridges the initial language barrier between many immigrants and the locals. He was now largely involved on social services as well, with humanitarian efforts from the organization he’s a member of. A question that often pops up is how immigrants experience political incorporation when integrating. In Pepe’s case, it didn’t seem to change his view any. He attributes this to his having a very high sense of justice already before coming to America, and this is likely to be true, considering that he has based so much of his life around traveling the world to give aid to the poor and the wronged.

Immigrant Harrisonburg

It sounded like integration for him was a bit more challenging than in Denver. Harrisonburg did not have the strong Latino culture or acceptance that Denver had. Pepe said that when he “moved to Harrisonburg, Virginia. The people here is very polite, very polite, but in some way  in my opinion very hypocritical. They don’t express really, they, they kind of smile at you, but they are no smiling really” Pepe recalled being surprised that Harrisonburg is known to some by the motto of being “the friendly city” :

There is people, really, there is people who really, really, really embrace others, but there is other people that are still, no. And I understand. This, this is, confederate land. One of the things that when when, that I noticed when, when, when we moved four years ago here, here in this place, I saw more confederate flag than any ever in my 14 years before.

Fortunately, there was already a large network of Latino people in Harrisonburg, and since he was involved with the Latino church, he was very directly plugged into it. Zarragh noted the influx in the Hispanic population in Latinization of the Valley and Pepe even noted a difference in the 4 years he’s been here. He even mentions a neighborhood that he calls the “United Nation, because there is people from everywhere…United States is a melting pot and like I say to other people before, this melting pot-pot is changing from White to Brown”

This gave Pepe something to learn back on. He make friends very easily so this has likely helped a lot as well. Unfortunately, he still has experienced some discrimination. He recalled that he had “suffer some discrimination. Yeah. Yeah. Um, maybe less than other people, um, because [he] am no the typical Latino. [He’s] tall, [he] can speak English.”

Struggles

Other than mentioning it prior, he didn’t give much detail on what sort of discrimination, maybe because he didn’t want to dwell on it too much, or maybe because we didn’t ask for him to elaborate. He did, however, give one specific example, to give us an idea of what he experiences:

“No long time ago I was in a restaurant with my family and people was coming later than us and they was served first. For example. And I notice! They came 20 minutes later than us and they serve to them. Th-Th-That’s to give you some ideas and other, and other things too. But yeah, it’s no easy. Has no easy.”

 

Creating Change

He visits his home country about once a year. He goes with a dentist from his congregation who wants to help the poor and needy by providing free dental services. So, Pepe’s motivations for going back seem to be more about doing humanitarian work and less about visiting for pleasure.

Pepe made mention of how so many people have been saying to “make America white again”, but that is not possible. He says with all of the increases in Hispanic yearly birth rates and major growth of the Hispanic population, America is becoming brown. He says that this is inevitable and a turning point.  The answer to this isn’t intolerance but to embrace and accept that “everyone will be a minority”. This can be interpreted as commentary toward Hispanics being larger members of US society going forward and that he likely feels a part of this society through association.

Conclusion

Pepe Rojas immigrated, worked as a volunteer through an organization while applying for citizenship, got to know a community of people, many of them immigrants, with values similar to his own, and built a network of many friends. He’s since moved here to Harrisonburg four years ago and is a firmly established member of its community.  He’s been here in the United States for fourteen years now. His story is one of trial and self-actualization. He’s an enriched person, having lived a lifetime of culturally enriching experiences. Naturally, someone like this is difficult to sum up in so few words. Here stands a person with charity. He has placed himself in so many different countries and cultures, going through this same process of integrating into their communities, with so many social, cultural, and bureaucratic hoops involved, all for the purpose of giving them aid, sending a message, or making a connection.

 

Westley: Okay, so what is your name?
Jose Pepe Rojas: My name is Jose Pepe Rojas
W: when and where were you born?
J: I born in Chile. Santiago, Chile
W: Uh, can you tell me about your family, like mom, Dad, siblings, etc.?
J: Yeah, Sure. Um, I’m coming from a very (pause) eh dysfunctional family. My mother wasn’t a hard worker. My father was a lazy guy, very smart, very artistic, very gifted with the hands, but very lazy and plus very violent and drunk and uh I don’t have brothers or sister. Um, and um, my father leave home when I was five years old (pause) and, he never come back.
W: Um. tell us a little about Chile, like, what was your life like in Chile growing up?
J: Um, uh Chile is, it’s a very, very unique place is, is, is in the continent, but in some ways like an island. Uh, we have the Pacific Ocean from one side and the Andes cross all the country in the other. That means we are very, in some way very isolated in some way, uh physical. It’s a very it’s a very rich country in natural resources. Um, uh, we produce a lot of fruits and veggies. Uh, the country is very diverse from north to south. North is the driest desert on the world, is in the north. And the center is like, um, like California in some ways, very fruitful. South, is, is a rainy, but it’s still a lot of agriculture. Um, a lot of animals, um, all the milk in the products, the, the, the area produces in south of the country and in the corner this part is very close to the Antarctic and it’s very, very, very diverse. Very long too. If you put the country here in the United States, let’s see, it’s something like from New York to California maybe that long.
W: Wow
Callie: Wow
J: but very, very skinny. Very, very skinny. And um, right now we have- the population is growing, maybe 17, 18 millions around that? Yeah.
W: What were your, like, fondest memories from Chile?
J: Um, um, pause), let’s see. I think soccer. So sorry, but it’s football, okay? Football, football.
W: (laughs)
C: (laughs)
J: Like (if) I say Soccer, I can offend some of my, uh, people. Yeah, football. That was the most fun thing. My friends too. I grew up with a lot of friends. I make a lot of crazy things when I was young.
W: Mm
J: Um, yeah, very good friends and so good, good memories.
W: That’s excellent. (pause) Uh, what kinds of crazy things, do you mean?
W: (laughs)
C: (laughs)
J: There is some that I can give you. An other are off the record obviously,
W: (laughs)
C: (laughs) Yeah?
J: but um, (pause) um, I was in many trouble in my young age. I was involved in drugs. I was involved in drinking. Crazy, uh, years of my life. I didn’t make nothing I just drugged
W: Hmm
J: and that was, wasn’t good, wasn’t good. I think, (pause) um, I make so many things so bad, that, just to give you (chuckle) an idea, when, in my country and that years in the seventies, the go to the army was mandatory. Mandatory. Well, I was in the army for maybe a week and they kicked me out
W: Oh.
C: Oh my goodness
J: because I wasn’t a (pause) good person.
C: Wow
J:In the army, they, they don’t, they don’t even think, “well, we can fix this man.” They kicked me out (snaps fingers) “get out.” Yeah. Many different things, not doing well.
C: That’s crazy
J: that time, bad decisions.
W: Wow, Um, how old were you when you decided to immigrate out of Chile?
J: Um, how old was, um, (long pause) I leave for the first time with my family in 86. I was 31 years old.
W: Okay
J: That was the first time I moved with my family, from Chile to Brazil
W: Mhm
J: That I, I have been living in many, many different countries and um, but that was the first time. 31 years old, I moved with my wife and my three kids to Brazil.
W: So you grew up in Chile, you and your mom and umm, you liked to play soccer a lot, had a lot of crazy years going when you were young
J: Yeah
W: and then, uh, could you tell us about settling down and having a family in Chile?
J: Yeah. Um, well I, (pause) I, I became Christian. Um, and that was really for me, that was my salvation because I was (pause) having too much drugs in my body that I was a little crazy. I was turning crazy. Um, even without drugs I have, I have, (in the past during this time in his life) I been hallucinating and all the time that was my mother was thinking, “I need to take you to the psychiatric because I can’t manage you.” Eh, I can, I don’t live with my father, I don’t have brothers. I live with my mother and my grandma (pause) and I was crazy. And, one friend of mine invited me to the church. At the beginning I thought, no way, no way jose, I’m not going to the church. You are crazy.
W: (laughs)
C: (laughs)
J: What? Jesus and uh what? No, no way. But at the end, I went with my friend, with several other friends, all these guy was doing exactly the same thing: drugs. We went to the church, in my case I became Christian. And that was my (pause) salvation really. In all sense, okay? My spiritual, my life, everything, and I meet this sweet girl at the church.
W: Mhm. At the church
J: Yeah. And (pause) I married with her and everything changed.
W: Wow. All because of the church
J: Because of the church. Yeah. All because of the church.
C: That’s crazy
W: Do you remember what….like say, you said, “oh, I don’t know about this”. Like, do you remember what the turning point was where you were like, “wow, I’m going to become Christian now.”?
J: Yeah. Um, the, the turning point was during this, one of the first service, first or second service that I attend the church, the pastor make an invitation to people to come to the altar. And, the idea was pray for them and that is all. But, because I was very macho, I don’t want to go to the front, I don’t want it to be there. And the pastor says in the moment, I know that someone here in this building don’t desire to come to the front. Let me tell you something. You can pray wherever you are. You can pray. You can pray in the bus, walking, in the bathroom, sit(ting) in the toilet. You can pray. And I was thinking “Okay, when I leave from the service, from the church, from the point of the church to my house takes maybe 50 minutes, one hour, by bus. And I will sit.” I remember very clear by the window and all my friends over here making noise. You know, guys, 17 years old, 19, 20, crazy. I was there and I looked out the window, say a small prayer, very simple. I say “I don’t know you, but the guy in the church says that if I talked to you, you can help me and I need your help. I’m open.”
J: That was all. Nothing more, nothing- (mimics heavenly noises and says “hallelujah!”)
W: (laughs)
C: (laughs)
J: No, nothing like that. Nothing. Very, very, very simple. When I (pause) when I arrived to my place, just get out of the bus, I was completely different. At the point when I arrived home, I opened, I live in an apartment. I opened the door of my apartment and my mom looked at me and she says “Now, What kind of drug is this one?”
C. (Gasp)
J: And I say “Mom. It’s no drugs. Nothing. I have, I’m clean.” “And what’s going on?” I say “Well, I’m a Christian.” “What?!” “I’m a Christian.” Everything changed.
W: Was your mom and grandma, were they Christian or?
J: My grandma. My mom was (pause) in French como si como sa.
W: Mm.
J: I don’t know, but yeah, that was my turning point.
W: Wow. That’s really powerful.
C: So, you said you first moved from Chile to Brazil.
J: Yeah
C: What was your experience there?
J: Um, uh, I was pursuing (to) be a missionary. I was looking to do, um, to do something. I, I, I(pause) I want to help others, but I recognize that I need some training in order to do this. And this was the reason. We moved to Brazil to get training with an organization called youth with a mission. Y1. And I met with them and I spend, we spend with my wife maybe 14 years of our life (pause) working with them.
C: So when did you eventually come to the US?
J: Um, I came several times. Um, I came-the first time was in 1992. At that time I was living in Equatorial Guinea, Africa and I received an invitation to be part of an uh, conference called mercy ministries. And because I was working in Africa and living in Africa, they consider what we were doing there was, um, mercy ministry. They want to know what kind of ministry was this, and I flew to Texas. Tyler, Texas. That was my first time. Um, later came other time, and at the end, um, in 1999, I moved from my family, from Chile to Honduras. And at the end of October, 1998, there was a big hurricane who almost destroy(ed) Central America and Honduras. Honduras was the, the worst country in Central America. And I went to visit what, what, what was the reality of the country, come back to Chile, share with my wife and my kids, and take the decision, “lets move to Honduras and help to the people in Honduras”. And I live in Honduras for two years. 1999 until 2000. At the end of 2000, we built 52 houses for people who lost everything during the hurricane. And when we finished the project there, we asked to the Lord “what is next, where we go”? And we feel that the Lord says go to the United States. And we moved to Denver, Colorado and we spent (pause) lets see, 14 years in Denver and four years ago I moved, we moved to Virginia.

W: What was the process of getting to the US. Like did you have to, like how, how hard was it to become an, uh, I guess, did you have like your, uh, like your green card or umm?

J: Yeah, permanent residence. Is- that is a long story.
W: Okay
J: But I try, I will try to make the short version. Um, I was, um, pastor in a church in, in Colorado, and with the (pause) being under the cover of this church, I get my religious worker visa, but in order to get that green card, I went, I moved to Chile to get the, the visa in Chile in order to get this work permit. It’s a long process, it’s a very expensive process. Very, very complicated. Very bureaucratic. Yeah. Takes years and thousands and thousands of dollars to get a uh, work permit.
W: One -just a simple question. How many years do you think that took you to uh, get the permit?

J: Um, It’s very interesting (pause) because they say for get the permanent residents, um take or the permit. I don’t remember right now. What is the permit or the um, whatever. That one of the things take in the law, If you read the law for a religious worker visa, they say, immigration says these things take six months. Well, in my case, take I think four or five years to get (permit)
W: Wow. That’s a long time

J: Take a long time. Take a long time.

W: What do you feel like you, uh, left behind in uh, Chile and Brazil and such. Did you feel like (when) you moved to the US, did you have to say goodbye to any family or any people or anything?

J: Yeah. Well, my family, my particular family is very small. Um at this moment I have just one cousin. He’s third or fourth grade, I don’t have any relationship. Was wasn’t very difficult for me. In other way too um, I, because I was living in so many places, um, I didn’t have the, the strong connection with the country. I was, I feel like I’m I am a citizen of the world. I am no, you know. Yeah. Some people are very connected with the country and my food, my bread, or the weather or I am not, I’m completely different. No.
W: That’s very freeing.
J: Yeah. Yeah.

W: Um, was there anyone in here in America waiting for you when you got here?
J: To what?
W: What- was anyone here in America that you knew, that was like waiting for you here?

J: Yeah. I have some friends, some friends. Especially in my years working with Y1, youth with a mission. I meet a lot of people. I met a lot of people in Chile. I met a lot of people when I live in, in, in, in Africa and um, I’m very, I am a very social person and I can make friends (snaps fingers) very easily. And when I came here, yeah, I got some of my good friends.
W: Um, when did you start learning English?
J: Um, I started learning English in high school in Chile. Its its its mandatory, its very basic, but for me it was good. I learned, I learned easily.
W: Did you start really using it like when you left Chile or was it more like when you came to the US you started really using it?

J: Oh No. During my years living in Chile and work, working with Y1, I use a lot of English to communicate with the other missionaries and yeah.

W: Um, when you got here to the US like uh, (pause) setting up, what was your first job, like how’d you start making money?

J: Uh, um, my, my first job here in United State was like a volunteer because I couldn’t, I couldn’t work. They, they don’t allow legally. Um, and, and I’ve worked with the same organization that I work at in Honduras. They move the office, uh, the headquarters from Hawaii to Denver, Colorado and I work it with them like a volunteer. That means I have some support. I didn’t get salary, but I have some support from friends. That, that was my first thing; friends who support me.
W: So when you moved, did you, um, (pause) did you feel like there was like a community of like a supportive community around you? Maybe of uh, a lot of Chileans or say people who are also immigrants kind of?
J: Yeah. I-I live in an organization. This wasn’t a housing program
W: Oh.
J: for people of low income. And very interesting, many, many of them were Christian, but many of them too was foreigners like me. Um, there was Ukrainians, Russians, a lot of Russians, um, Africans, um, people, a few people from Europe I remember very well. And these organizations provided housing but in very, very low cost and that was very, very affordable for us. And the other thing, too is, these organization was- have a very good connection with Y1. And there was a Y1 based in Arbada. What is northeast or northwest Denver, and they have a very good relationship. And when they know I was coming, they helped me.
W: That’s great.
J: Yeah.
C: It’s nice that you had like, a lot of communities everywhere.
J: Yeah, Yeah. A lot of people was there trying to help.
W: Uh, what did you do for recreation in uh, when you moved, I guess?
J: Umm, recreation, let’s see.
W: Like for fun, you know?
J: Yeah, yeah
W: Yeah
J: Yeah. Um, you know, I spent a lot of time at the church, with people. Um, again, I’m very social and, um, our home was always open with- for people. Um, we don’t have any problem if somebody came *knock knock knock*s (knocks on desk with hand) and knocked the door without invitation. You are very welcome. And if we are, if that was during lunchtime, “Oh, come on! Let’s move! Move the plates and you are welcome.” You know? Um, I love that thing. I love, I love movies. I love um, uh I’m very sport guy. I love (to) play. I’m very competitive. Um, if you invite me to play tennis, even when I’m no good, I will try to beat you.
W: (laughs)
C: (laughs)
W: I like that.
J: Yeah.
C: Yeah um, So you said you’ve uh, held like a lot of jobs, um, based on Y1? Is that what you’re saying?
J: Yeah
C: Um, so is that what brought you to Virginia?
J: Yeah. Well, um, let me go a little bit, a little back.
C: Yeah.
J: Um, I get my green card
C: Ok
J: in Denver, Colorado and I started my application for my citizenship. Okay? Um, some of my, two of my kids was living very close to here, one was living- is living in, in, in Baltimore, in an area of Baltimore, and at that time my oldest daughter was living in dc. And even when we have a nice church, a lot of friends, a lot of friends, um, something was missing, and was my family. Um, my youngest daughter at that time was living in India, uh, with her husband and I was- we were again, a nice place, very good friends, but the family was very important for me and for my wife too. Um, we want(ed) to be close with our grandkids. My grandfather was a very, very special man for me, um, because I didn’t have a father. He became in some way my father and always have in my heart the desire to replicate in some way with my grandkids, what I have received with my grandpa. And, and we moved here. We found that this church was looking for another Latino pastor to take care of the Latino church, the Latino congregation and, and we move and we connected very well and I’m here
C: that’s great. (clears throat) So did you find it was easy to acclimate to Harrisonburg or the US in general, like did you have any troubles with it or…
J: What kind of trouble?
C: Um, anything like uh, getting used to the weather as you said earlier or like discrimination-
W: Or culture shock.
J: Ohh
C: Culture?
J: Oh, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. I think if, if, um, if I look back to Colorado, Denver, Colorado and um, Harrisonburg, Virginia is, is, is, is a big difference.
C: Umhm
J: Big difference. Um, very broadly the uh, Colorado have a big Latino influence, a big, big Latino influence and the people are, if, if we can say more liberal uh, sometimes when, when we use the term liberal is, is the connotation is little. I don’t know little different.
C: Yeah
J: Maybe I can say is more humanitarian,
C: Mmhm
J: maybe sounds much, much better. Um, uh, for example, just to give an example, Cinco de Mayo, uh one of the biggest Cinco de Mayo celebration in United States is in Denver, Colorado.
C: Oh!
W: Wow
C: I didn’t know that
J: Yeah
W: Me neither
J: is huge.
C: (laughs)
J: Huge. Why? Because the white American has embrace, the Latino community in-in a very good manner, very good way.
C: Yeah
J: I moved to uh, Harrisonburg, Virginia. Uh, the people here is very polite, very polite, but in some way in my opinion very hypocritical. They don’t express really, they, they kind of smile at you, but they are no smiling really.
C: Yeah
J: Um, I have uh suffer some discrimination. Yeah. Yeah. Um, maybe less than other people, um, because I am no the typical Latino. I am, I’m tall, I can speak English
C: Mmhm
J: maybe not very well
C: (laughs)
W: (laughs) What?
J: but I can speak.
C: You speak fine.
W: Yeah, it’s perfectly fine.
J: with a little strange accent, but I can do this. But I still I suffer some, some discrimination. Just to give you some ideas. No, no, no, some, no long time ago I was in a restaurant with my family and people was coming later than us and they was served first. For example. And I notice! They came 20 minutes later than us
C: Mmhm
J: and they serve to them. Th-Th-That’s to give you some ideas and other, and other things too. But yeah, it’s no easy. Has no easy. It’s very interesting that my senior pastor, my pastor says one of the first time, you know what the motto of Harrisonburg, the friendly, the friendly city?
C & W: Mmhm
J: Uhhh, I don’t know.
C: (laughs)
J: I don’t know.
C: Yeah
J: I have some. There is people, really, there is people who really, really, really embrace others, but there is other people that are still, no. And I understand. This, this is, uh, confederate land. One of the things that when when, that I noticed when, when, when we moved four years ago here, here in this place, I saw more confederate flag than any ever in my 14 years before.
C: Has living here made you more interested in politics? Or have you always…
J: No, no,
C:MUmhm
J: It’s nothing new for me.
C: Ok.
J: Um, no. Um, the, the reason is (clears throat) for me, I, I have a high sense of justice.
C: Mmhm
J: Um, could be from when I was a child. Uh, the situation that I suffer with my father. I don’t know. Th-There, I was very poor too. I live in a very, very poor neighborhood. I grew up in a poor neighborhood and my family was the poorest of the poor. And, I don’t know too if maybe it’s a mix of things. My mother in law, um, she was a poor lady, but years before she was a very well educated, living in one of the most richest families in Santiago. She lost everything. And, and she have a heart for the community and I learned, I learned something from her. Is, is nothing new.
C: Mmhm
J: I love justice. I and, yeah.
C: So did you feel, um, moving to Harrisburg you said it was very different. Do you still feel that your received okay? Did, did you find um, Harrisonburg had a nice community? Um like of immigrants and stuff like that?
J: Yeah, I think, um, things are changing.
C: Mmhm
J: We have, uh, Sal Romero in, in the city council.
C: Yeah.
K: We have an African American lady too.
C: Mmhm
J: Um, back of, back of our church here. We have a, a, a neighborhood that I call United Nation.
W: (laughs) I like that.
J: Um, because there is people from everywhere.
C: Yeah
J: Um, these, uh, let me put this in this way. United States is a melting pot and like I say to other people before, this melting pot-pot is changing from White to Brown. And this is something that is irreversible, is, is, is not possible when somebody says, uh, “Make white America again”. Sorry, no.
C: (laughs) Yeah.
J: It’s, it’s not going to happen. Can be happen if you are take the guns, the weapons and create on a, I don’t what, um, but it’s not going to happen. Really because this melting pot is changing, is changing to be more brown than white. Um, if I remember well four or five years ago, I go in this country for first time in the history, more Latino babies born in one year than white babies. That, that is, pay attention of this. This is something that is, it’s not turning point, is. And, we need to live with that.
C: Yeah.
J: We need to accept this. This is the reality.
C: Yeah
J: Even they close the door. If they shut the door completely. Still with the people living here, the number says, and I’m not saying this, I’m very bad mathematic, for math, I’m terrible. But the people who knows says maybe 2030, maybe 2035, there is no going to be majority in the country. Everybody’s going to be minority.
C: I’ve heard of predictions even as early by 2020.
J: Look at that.
C: Mmhm
W: Mmhm
J: Very soon.
C: Yeah, very soon
J: Very soon. That means-
W: Exponential growth, you know?
J: Yeah. The thing is, with that reality, are you continue it fighting against other who are- no man! This is the time to start to embrace because we are going to be here in the same boat. All of us.
C: Umhm. Yeah. Would you say that your, your overall experience in the United States has been a positive one then?
J: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
C: That’s good to hear.
J: Very positive.
C: Um, what has been the most difficult part about living in Harrisburg- like Harrisonburg specifically? Is it because you didn’t have, don’t have like that big of a culture as you did in Denver or is it something else?
J: You know what I, again, I don’t have.I think the most difficult thing for me is when I interact with people who, who have a different opinion about me just because the color of my skin or my face or my, uh, my broken and poor English. That is the only thing. That is my biggest conflict. My… But it’s, it’s no me too, it’s them. Because if they know me, maybe very probably they can find in me a good guy and a very good friend. I’m, no, uh, yeah.
C: That’s nice to hear. Um, so what has it been like working, um, at this like church? Um, do you find that because you’re in a real- like involved in the religious community, people have been more accepting? Um, or what has just been your over-overall experience?
J: Yeah, I think ,yeah. Um, it’s very interesting here in this country. Many people call themselves Christian,
C: Mmhm
J: but really, uh, many of them are no really good Christian. They are, I don’t know, fans?
C & W: (Laugh)
W: They go to church on Sunday, fair weather fans, yeah.
J: Yeah, but Christian, no. But, still they have some respect when somebody says I am a pastor and um, yeah, you know, working in this church, yeah.
C: It’s good to hear that. Um, would you say that being where you are, like involved with this covenant has given you a different perspective on Harrisonburg and then maybe other people um involved in like different situations or no?
J: Well, uh, the good thing for me is to be in this church is, is this is a church who is embracing every single one. We’re no making any difference. Um, the Latino Church of this con- this church has been here for 31, 32 years. This was the first Latino church in all Harrisonburg. This one.
C: Oh my goodness.
J: That was the first one.
W: Wow
J: That speak very strong. That here, the people of this church have a commitment with this group of people even when they don’t speak language, their language. Some, some of them are undocumented. I don’t mention illegal because I don’t like that word,
C & W: Mmhm
J: but undocumented.
C: Mmhm
J: They are here and they are welcome here in this church. Um, we, some of our series, we, we bridge by series for four weeks, six week, whenever. I remember we put a banner outside with the new series. We put the title of this series in English and in Spanish and Arabic for our community over here. Um, when we open, when we have programs here, like, uh, harvest, party, uh, Easter, we have all kinds of people here. Muslim, Christian, non Christian, non Muslim. Everybody’s welcome. I love that because for me this is the, this is the church is the best platform to speak to others about how we can work, how we can live, how is the way to love other people. This is the best, the best way.
C: It’s a really good message, your- you’re spreading.
J: Yeah
W: I agree, yeah
C: That you should be accepting everyone. Um, so have you been, visited Chile ever since you’ve moved to the United States?
J: Yeah, yeah.
C: Do you go back often?
J: (clears throat) I go to Chile almost every year,
C: That’s nice
J: (clears throat) every year, um, um, in the last three years, four years, March is the time when we go to Chile, um, there is a dentist here in the city, very well known is, uh, Smile Makers.
C: Mmhm
J: The doctor is Greg Johnson and he’s part of our congregation. And when I arrived here, he says to me, I want to go back to Chile. I have been in Chile many times and I want to go back to Chile, but I want to go to another place I’m going to go to Puerto Montt, is a city maybe 1200 kilometer from Santiago, and I want to take a dental team and go and help poor people in, in that area. And we have been doing this for the last four years. Um, if I put the number I can say thousands of people has been blessed by Greg and other dentists, other, uh, hygienist helping, cleaning fillings. Everything. And it’s free.
C: (whispers) That’s awesome.
J: And in the last two years, um, we add a construction team because the church is building a new facility for children. This is going to be an hogar, a house for children, little one, and we built this past march, we built one of the unit is going to be a big facility with four or five buildings. We built one in March and we are thinking to go back now in next year, February with another team. Yeah. I go back to Chile. Uh, but always with the, I’m not going to, I’m not going to vacation. We go to serve, to help people.
C: Do you specifically go in March and February for a reason? Is it like the best time…?
J: Um, it, that was the best time for, for Greg,
W: Oh
C: Got it.
J: um, because he have a perfect window of time. Ten days, 12 days. That was the reason.
C: Got it
J: And for the construction team, uh, I’m thinking in February or Mar- March is a good time because there’s no raining.
C: Ohh
W: Hmm
J: Puerto Montt is, if you take away, uh, from the equator line to the south, it’s the same distance from the equator to north. That means it’s going to be Oregon or Washington state.
C: Mmhm
J: That means a lot of rain and the window of time work best for construction is during summer.
C: Got it, I see. So, do you, um, think that any of your views or values, um, about living in the US has changed since you’ve been living here or or did you like have a different view before you moved here?
J: Um, no, I think it’s- (pause) well, let’s see. I moved from, from, uh, Honduras. I always lived in countries of the third world. Coming to the United States, yeah, you find another dynamic. You find another way. Um, uh, for example, Latinos, we are masters of improvisation. Uh, Americans: Planification. Is making plans. We don’t make no plans, but we are very good improvising, um, in coming to this country and put together both. I enriched my life because I’m good in this, but this other thing is good too.
C: Yeah, It’s cool to see how those mesh
W: Interesting.
C: So, so far, what would you view as the happiest or best time in your life?
J: Being with my kids.
C: Anytime, that that is?
J: Uh, yeah, for me is the best, I think. I have three kids. Um, it’s not easy to meet together. Like I said before, the youngest years ago was living in India. Uh, she moved from India, from Kolkata, India to Seattle. Um, later, the oldest who was living in D.C, she moved to Luxembourg.
C: Oh my.
J: and is quite complicated
C: (laughs)
J: to meet together, but when I meet together is, is heaven for me. I love it. I love to be with my kids. I love to be with my grandkids.
C: Mmhm
J: I have um, uh, we have a very good communication with our kids. We talk even when they live very far. We talk almost every day with them. Yeah.
C: That’s great.
J: How many times you talked with your parents?
C: Definitely not as much as that (laughs)
J: No?
C: No.
W: And you?
W: Uh, somewhere in like every three or four days, you know.
J: Yeah
C: Mmhm
W: (I) Just try to do that every day
J: Yeah
W: or something
J: Yeah. Good.
C: It’s probably cause we take for granted how close we are to our family.
W: Yeah, you’re right.
J: Yeah. Okay!
C: (Laughs)
J: Next question.
C: Um, the last question I have is, um, what historical events have had an impact on your life?
J: Say again.
C: What historical events have had an impact on your life? So I think specifics, so you mentioned the hurricane, um in Honduras, that had a big impact. Has anything else had a really big impact on your life?
J: I can think a couple of things. Um, first of all, I think, uh, Jesus Christ for me was really
C: Mmhm
J: impact my, my life. He changed my life completely. He saved my life. Um, 19, 1994, I was in, in Goma in Zaire, Zaire, at that time, during the Rwandan War and visiting some of the feeding camp. That was the most shocking things for me. But at the same time was kind of shaking my life when I saw that reality. Um, see human beings in that condition was, gave me something that I never experienced before. Um, most of these was children. That was the most. Yeah, um, the magnitude of this tragedy was overwhelmed. Uh, at that time in Goma, there was easily a million and a half, maybe more, refugees living in, in, in a poor area. The condition was so extreme in, in everything. Food, water, bathroom, uh, medicine. Um, that was incredible for me. Um, for example, I didn’t know that there was an organization on the world. Not many people know this organization, but this one NGO who work there specific work is to remove bodies from, from the camp
W: Wow.
J: because they need to move (snaps quickly) quick these body because, uh, prevent sickness and other thing. And that, that was, if I think about something that impact my, that that place was, yeah.
C: Wow, that’s crazy. Well, those are all the questions we have for you.
J: Yeah?
C: Yeah. But it was very nice talking to you.
W: Very powerful, yeah
J: Yeah

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Interview with Carlos Maldonado

Interview with Carlos Maldonado

by Joel Ferrel

Carlos Maldonado is an immigrant from Honduras, who now attends James Madison University. Carlos is a rising senior and is a sociology major with a business minor. He is 23 years old, and he came to Honduras when he was around 9 years old around

Republic of Honduras

2005. He didn’t really have any dreams or aspirations because he was just a child upon entrance, but he did have visions of what America would be like through movies and pop culture.

He has worked with his dad in landscaping jobs and has been in American school ever since 4th grade to now. He struggled all through elementary and middle school communicating with people, since English was his second language. But in high school he really flourished and began to communicate with friends and teachers, making connections and social networking.

Around 11th grade Carlos was thinking about life, to either finish school and go right into working with dad or to go to college, but the question was how, he was an immigrant? He was starting to give up on his and his father’s dream of him going to university, but thankfully, When Barack Obama was still president, he came out with something called DACA (Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals) in June 2012. This gave him “hope,” like Obama campaign message!

Ever since he applied for DACA and got accepted, he’s applied to JMU and got accepted, got his license, and has a worker’s permit; all thanks to this program. He’s been involved with numerous clubs on campus as well, Carlos began to become very incorporated with the school; he joined LSA (Latino Student Association), Environmental management club, Madison Motors, and played intramurals soccer. He joined LSA to make a voice for the Latino community within JMU, he would attend events like the Silent Protest for DACA and TPS, where they walk around campus and discuss immigration issues like these. He also liked to go volunteer and plants tree within the community, to give back, with Environmental management club.

Although at first, Carlos didn’t like his experience in the USA because of occasions of being in a detention center for 2 weeks and not being able to communicate. Now, Carlos loves the US and couldn’t imagine being anywhere else.

 

TRANSCRIPT

(0:00 – 0:34) Joel: Alright, I’m here with Carlos Maldonado, resident here in Harrisonburg. Interviewer myself, Joel Ferrel, I’m here to conduct an oral history interview about his come a bout in Harrisonburg, and in the United States and how he impacted Harrisonburg, or since he’s young, how his parents impacted Harrisonburg and how it all came to be. So, to start off, why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself, Carlos.

(0:35 – 0:49) Carlos: I’m a current JMU student, I’m a rising senior, and I’m a sociology major with a business minor and a concentration in business.

(0:50 -1:04) Joel: Alright, so we can definitely relate because I obviously go to JMU too so, yeah, what country are your parents or you originally from?

(1:05 – 1:08) Carlos: We’re from Honduras.

(1:09 – 1:12) Joel: And how long have you lived in Honduras for?

(1:13 – 1:28) Carlos: I lived over there until I was 9 years old, then I made my journey over to the US, and ever since I’ve been here for 13 years. My parents about 15-16 years.

(1:29 – 1:46) Joel: What made you guys want to leave Honduras? Was it because of that Hurricane that happened there, Hurricane Mitch in 1998? Or was it because of other reasons like work or money?

(1:47 – 2:05) Carlos: Just work and money. And we had some family over here, so my parents thought there were way better opportunities; so, we were just chasing the money and a better life and a better future for the whole family

(2:06 – 2:22) Joel: So, for whole family, like, does that include aunts and uncles that came with you. Or were there friends and families that went with you or were there friends or family waiting for you in a certain area that you came to?

(2:23 – 3:05) Carlos: To a certain extent. My parents came here first, like I mentioned. Around 2003 or 2004 I believe, and same with some uncles, 3 uncles if I recall. Then we came here in 2005 me myself and 2 brothers. But as of now its just the close family, my brothers and my parents. My uncles, they all left to Honduras, they didn’t like it so-

(3:06- 3:35) Joel: So, you guys are not about your culture and stuff or, did you bring your culture here to USA like the cooking and dressing or did you guys accustom to United State- burgers and fries and JORTS. Did you bring a taste of Honduras with you?

(3:36 – 4:00) Carlos: Oh yeah definitely, at home yes. We kind of prefer the Latino restaurants, especially my parents. I don’t mind it much, neither do my brothers; my dad still, he actually wants to back soon in 2-3 years. My mom, she’s not very fond of that.

(4:01 – 4:02) Joel: She doesn’t want to back?

(4:02 – 4:09) Carlos: No, she doesn’t want to back. She actually likes it here, but he, he wants to go back; he kind of misses it.

(4:10 – 4:27) Joel: Do you send remittances or like do you send your own money to help out you family or friends in need back to Honduras?

(4:28 – 4:56) Carlos: Yes, they do that, my mom and dad, so they either send it to my uncle or grandma. My dad is building stuff over there, he’s building stuff, he built 2 houses. He’s got a lot of cows, so it’s like a farm over there, he cultivates things, you know like corn and beans.

(4:57 – 5:08) Joel: So, the economy is essentially good over there? Well, I know there’s a lot of poverty and stuff, which I guess made you guys move to make more money, but as of now, is the economy better?

(5:09 – 5:42) Carlos: I wouldn’t say the economy is better, but it’s, you know how it’s a third world country, were still back in the bartering things and cultivating, so if you have animals, land, and tractors you pretty much can grow your own food and sell it. Compared to other people who don’t have that, are the ones who suffer if you ask me.

(5:43 – 5:54) Joel: So, how did you journey to here happen. Through boat or through Mexico? How did you to USA?

(5:59 – 6:18) Carlos: I made it through land, and through vehicle. So, from the beginning I recall one morning waking up, my grandma she woke us up. And we didn’t know about it.

(6:19 – 6:21) Joel: So, the kids didn’t know you were leaving, you and your brothers?

(6:22 – 7:19) Carlos: NO, we didn’t know. It was like 5 in the morning. And she was like “oh you guys are leaving to the US.” You know I was confused because you can’t just throw- I think I was 9, I’m the middle one by the way, I got 3 siblings. I was 9, my big brother was 10 and a half, and my little one was 6 years old. They woke us up, put us in a pick-up truck with an aunt so we then made it over here. I believe we crossed Guatemala, el Salvador, then Mexico. We shared a tractor-trailer.

(7:20 – 7:23) Joel: Like a big truck, filled with other people?

(7:23 – 8:06) Carlos: Yeah, they smuggled us in one of those, then we went to the safehouse. Then we crossed the river, The Rio Grande, The Grand River. So, once we crossed that, immigration caught us, so then after crossing swimming through the river we got caught. We went to this shelter. What are they called? Where they house the immigrants?

(8:07 – 8:09) Joel: Homeland security?

(8:10 – 8:25) Carlos: Yeah, it’s a part of homeland security. Yeah, but they keep the minors there, and they deported my aunt that came with us, but they let us stay because we were minors. Then our parents-

(8:26 – 8:30) Joel: Sorry, you went with your aunt and your parents and you 3 brothers?

(8:31 – 8:45) Carlos: No, no, just my aunt. My parents came over here 2 years prior. They had to come over to make the money to you know to save for us.

(8:46 – 8:47) Joel: Make a foundation for you guys

(8:48 – 8:49) Carlos: Yes, yes exactly.

(8:50 – 8:58) Joel: So, your aunt got caught, then you 3 just went, how did you go about, how did you find your way? I would be scared as a kid.

(8:59 – 9:10) Carlos: We all got caught, the thing is, since we were minors, they kept us, actually they kept us jailed, feeding us burritos for 2 weeks at least.

(9:12 – 9:13) Joel: Was it good at least?

(9:14 – 9:43) Carlos: They were pretty decent, you know, I would just go to Walmart and I would see those things and they would give me those things at school. Just the whole time it would remind me of the whole experience, we were pretty much jailed for about 2 weeks, a detention center. Feeding us burritos, until our parents showed up. Then our lives came about.

(9:44 – 9:48) Joel: You parents were on the US side coming to get you?

(9:49 – 10:00) Carlos: Yes, they were already in the US, and we were in Texas actually, so they drove from Virginia all the way to Texas to pick us up.

(10:01 – 10:02) Joel: All the way from Virginia to Texas?

(10:03) Carlos: Yes

(10:04 – 10:14) Joel: So, how long was your journey, in hours? From Honduras to Virginia? Or where ever your final destination was?

(10:15 – 10:41) Carlos: Honestly, I couldn’t tell you, because it took days, close to a week. And like I said, we were inside a tractor-trailer. So, there’s no sense of time, plus we were young, so its hard to make sense on it.

(10:42 – 10:50) Joel: So, when you came to Virginia, what part did your parents settle in?

(10:51 – 11:08) Carlos: We came to Harrisonburg, we’ve been in Harrisonburg since 2005. I went to half of 5th grade I believe, and then all the way to college here in Harrisonburg.

(11:09) Joel: So, you’ve just been staying local?

(11:11) Carlos: Yes, I’ve been local.

(11:13 – 11:22) Joel: How have your parents contributed to the economy of Harrisonburg, or work-wise what do they do around here?

(11:23 – 11:34) Carlos: It’s hard to contribute towards the economy and society when they’re immigrants themselves, they’re really limited-

(11:35 – 11:37) Joel: So, they couldn’t really get good jobs? Or careers?

(11:38 – 12:21) Carlos: Yeah, they couldn’t really get a career because of their status. But my dad he owns a landscaping company, so he still pays taxes through his tax payer ID, he can do taxes, so they tax his company and all the revenues and profits he does. He works locally, he also travels outside-

(12:22) Joel: Outside of Harrisonburg? Like all of Virginia, DC, northern Virginia too?

(12:29) Carlos: Yes, yes

(12:30 – 12:47) Joel: Let’s backtrack a bit, what was your first impression of USA? Like you said, that Walmart with the burritos, it makes you remember the burritos you had. What was your impression of all these stores, all these roads, how different was it from Honduras?

(12:48 – 13:17) Carlos: Very different, at the beginning I couldn’t get used to it. It’s a different culture, different language, different people. It hard to make sense of it, even the food. But you come to like it, and its nice now.

(13:18 – 13:23) Joel: Your initial impression was not so good, but how has it changed now?

(13:24 – 13:51) Carlos: I just really miss my family, Like I said, they dragged us out of bed at 5am without saying anything; pretty much it was a bad start from the beginning. If it would’ve been planned differently, I would have had hopes and aspirations on what to expect, but I just came to a random land and I wasn’t fond of it.

(13:52 – 14:07) Joel: So as kid you said you had hopes, what were you hoping for when you came to America? What did you expect of all this?

(14:08 – 15:03) Carlos: Pretty much, popular culture, you know just watching movies you see all the Americans having fun, hanging out with friends, socializing, going to king’s dominion/six flags all those types of things. But as an immigrant you can’t really do all that, you’re not just limited yourself, but your parents too. They can’t drive much because of license problem. Like you mentioned, the roads and stores, this and that. You can’t read the road signs, you can’t make sense of the money, its hard to put yourself out there.

(15:04 – 15:21) Joel: Were you treated differently since you were an immigrant or where you grew up or where you were at, were there more immigrant people or white people. How were you treated?

(15:22 – 16:00) Carlos: I used to think that people would treat me differently. But I think that’s just psychological, it really depends on your personality and how you go about yourself. I don’t think I was treated differently, but for sometime I felt like I was, but that is because of my barriers; of not being able to communicate or make sense of the environment and the people around me. But no, I wouldn’t agree with that.

(16:01 – 16:23) Joel:  Did watching American movies fulfill your expectations? Or were you expecting something way more? Like you said you couldn’t go to kings dominion. Was your idea of America the same as it was in your reality or was it different?

(16:24 – 18:01) Carlos: I would go in between, thinking about it now, its life you got to take care of bills. I understand now why my parents wouldn’t go out on a lot of adventures/trips. But if you have the means to do all that, definitely I would have said it met my expectations, but I came to a country where my parents had to build the foundations of my family and take care of us from scratch. When my dad came and my mom, they had to be housed by my uncle I think, that was already here. You know, they came over here with nothing; a bag behind their back, clothes on them, pair of shoes, maybe a few dollars on them; but that’s it, you gotta start from scratch. And If you don’t have anyone to house you, your pretty much homeless, so it all starts from there.

(18:02 – 18:10) Joel: What was you experience like in middle school and high school?

(18:11 – 20:14) Carlos: I really liked middle school a lot, made a few friends moved on. My English wasn’t the best, but by 9th I got pretty good at it, I was pretty smart, good grades. Then it was 10th grade I started thinking about life, I started working with my dad in his landscaping company. In my off days, I wasn’t fond of them, I didn’t really like them. Then there was 11th grade, junior year, I was like wow, one more year I’m either going to be a full time worker or go to college. I thought about it, how am I going to go to college? Carlos: There was no way of going to college because I was an illegal immigrant. So, all those years of studying, trying to get good grades, and get through high school. It really challenges you, your mind and everything. Because you do all that, and at the end of the day, you just graduate high school and you’re just going to be another immigrant working in either construction or landscaping. Just getting paid minimum, because you can’t make a career of yourself, or get employed legally.

(20:15 – 20:22) Joel: And most of the time be paid under the table, if your employed by a corporation.

(20:23) Carlos: Right

(2:24 – 2:37) Joel: I guess you worked for your dad, and he had his company. When you got out of high school, your choices were work and study. Which one did you choose and why?

(2:28 – 2:40) Carlos: My dad he always supported education, he didn’t get an education himself. So, I didn’t really get a choice, he always wanted me to study. Just the means to get the education was challenging because illegal immigrants don’t get FASFA, federal aid; we do get scholarships though. Most of the immigrants they just slack off, and at the end of the day they don’t get FASFA. So, you got to pay everything out of pocket, and you can’t get loans because you don’t have a valid social security. You can’t get FASFA or loans, because you don’t have social security. However, back in 11th grade, in high school, that’s when Obama put out DACA, deferred action for children in America. So what DACA did, it provided any children of illegal immigrants. It provided them driver’s license, the ability to work legally, a social security, and you could also go to college! So that’s when my world came about. That’s when I got excited about life, you know I felt that all those years and the journey and sacrifices were not in vain because I was finally going to do what they wanted me to do.  We were finally living our dream and changing the history of our family, because no one in my family went to college prior that. This was a big come about for us.

(2:41 – 2:55) Joel: You applied for DACA and everything, and you got your way in to college. What made you want to choose JMU?

(2:58 – 25:06) Carlos: I just feel that being a resident of the Harrisonburg community, I heard a lot about JMU, even though there aren’t a lot of Latinos in here. It’s a really nice institute, always driving in the streets, I imagined myself as one in the crowd. Backpack on, walking through campus, walking the quad, as an actual student, not just visiting. I remember the first time I saw it, I was amazed by it. And you know I was amazed and at the same time sad, because I thought I was never going to experience it. Because of my previous immigration status, but like I said, when DACA came around that changed.

(25:11 – 25:19) Joel: Alright, how has JMU, or Harrisonburg, shaped you as a person?

(25:20 – 26:42) Carlos: It’s definitely made me see things from a different perspective. For example, people don’t have it as easy as I imagine, its JMU a hard school, its very difficult. Everyone who’s here earned their way in, their acceptance. How it shaped me is, I can really see how people feel about the community by being a part of it. I see why the choose JMU, there’s a lot of Virginia residents, they really want to shape the community. Volunteering and joining clubs; the students are doing amazing things here and like I said, I’m glad to be accepted into it, and I try my best.

(26:43 – 26:49) Joel: So what organizations and clubs have you been involved with around here?

(26:54 – 27:54) Carlos: Right now, I’m in LSA which is Latino Student Alliance. And Environmental Management club, and I also play intramural soccer. I was also a part of Madison Motors, which was a club for car enthusiasts. I’ve tried to join other things, not a lot of things get my interest. I’ve gone to the thing where they show all the clubs.

(27:55 – 28:00) Joel: The interesting meeting?

(28:01 – 28:19) Carlos: I can’t recall, I feel like every time I go there the interesting clubs aren’t there. Either that, or I feel like there are too many female-related clubs.

(28:20) Joel: Sororities and stuff?

(28:21) Carlos: Yeah, rather than just, co-ed type of things.

(28:31 – 28:36) Joel: So, what made you want to be involved with LSA and EMC?

(28:37 – 30:41) Carlos: LSA, you know the whole Latino Community here in JMU and how there’s been a lot of things going on within the Latino community, ever since Donald Trump. So, I just wanted to stay inform and attend their meetings. Support the community, for instance, last year we were highly involved. I think we did about 3 walks around campus. Like, Silent Protest for DACA and TPS and another one. I forgot what the other one was for, but the reason for those protest, a silent protest, we just stand against the decisions made by the legal system; hence Donald Trump and all the decisions he’s been making. Especially on how he was trying to abolish DACA and the same with the TPS, which is Temporary Protected Status. Both of those services, what they do, they pretty much make illegal immigrants gives them the right to work and gives them driver’s license. And it just takes away their illegal status and their allowed to work. They help the community by working, and buying stuff, owning property and stuff like that.

(30:42 – 30:51) Joel: How did you apply for DACA? What papers did you have to go through and what did you have to turn? Was there a type of fee?

(30:52 – 32:14) Carlos: Yes, the way they do it, there’s like a certain criteria. I believe you have to arrive to the US prior being 29 or 30 years old, before 2001 I believe, and not have any criminal record. Also, yes there’s a fee, I think its about 500 or 600 dollars. The way you apply is, you either get a lawyer and they do all the applications and you can also do them yourself. After the application, you send it by mail and you wait around a month/a month and a half, they send you an interview. Not an interview, yeah, they send you something, so you can go take your fingerprints, after the run their records, their background check on you. They either decide if you qualify or not.

(32:15) Joel: And so, you qualified for everything?

(32:16 – 33:59) Carlos: Yes, I qualified back in 2011, and the way they do it is, that it expires every 2 years. So, every 2 years, since 2011, I’ve applied 3 times. Yeah, I’ve applied 3 times, all those 3 times it’s the same process. You send your application, you send a check for 500 dollars I believe and then you go for you biometrics appointment and then you wait for the month of their reply; whether they accepted or not.

(33:00 – 33:36) Joel: Under Obama’s presidency there was the Dreamers Act, DACA, all that he provided for illegal immigrant type students. But now that Trump under presidency, its been said that he terminated DACA and that he said he was going to send everyone back home. How does someone still renew their DACA or is still under being appealed?

(3:37 – 34:13) Carlos: The way how that goes is; he did try to revoke it, but you know both houses of congress didn’t let him do it. However, it did get revoked for a little bit, for about 2 weeks I believe. Can you refresh the question?

(34:14 – 34:29) Joel: Like, I guess it’s been said that Trump terminated DACA program, and you said only for a little bit. How does someone still renew their DACA or is still the same process now?

(34:30 – 34:57) Carlos: Oh yeah, it’s the same process pretty much, but its been rumored that this is the last renewal that people are going to get. But I haven’t heard anything about it being completely revoked; however, there is rumors that this is the last two years that it will run for.

(34:58 – 35:03) Joel: And can someone get denied their DACA by any chance?

(35:04 – 35:58) Carlos: Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, they say its discretionary decision. Depending on your record or anything like that, your background or whether the immigration agent who’s with you and your application, if he feels that anything doesn’t look right or if he’s in a bad mood. Then he can say no, and just stamp it and deny it. It’s a tough process, an agent being a in bad mood can determine the outcome of whether your legal or not.

(3:59) Joel: So, is it a bit like getting a Visa?

(36:05 – 36:21) Carlos: Yes, just that Visas tend to run longer, 5 years. The difference is just that DACA is 2 years.

(36:22 – 37:29) Joel: I have a cousin, his name is Dennis, and he came here on a vacation VISA. He was supposed to leave around December and even while he was on the vacation VISA he was still working, just getting paid under the table or getting paid under my uncle’s name, who is a legal resident of America. For someone that has DACA and its been repealed or denied now, like they had DACA they could study and whatnot which makes them a legal student under the eyes of the government. If you’re under DACA, you’re from Mexico you can study and get a license but let’s say they do something bad and they deny their DACA. What can that person do or are they seen as illegal immigrant, or can I support them?

(37:30 – 38:15) Carlos: Definitely when they make your sign, fill out applications and fingerprints. They ask for you addresses, for example me, they have my JMU address and my residential address. If by any case my application gets repealed/denied in anyway, ICE can show up any day at my doorstop and send me back to my country.

(38:20 – 38:34) Joel: Now that you’re here in JMU, under DACA, do you have any plans on bettering the community. What’re your plans after graduating.

(38:35 – 39:50) Carlos: After graduating well, what I’m trying to do with my degree, like I said I’m sociology with a business minor with concentration in markets and culture. I definitely want to stick around either work Human Resources or non-profit. I can go either way, or I can do any business-related type of work. But definitely local and I’d really like the non-profit way because it’s more centered towards helping the society/community, those around you. Either that or go towards the green center and renewable energy type of thing. Anything that betters the environment and the community around me.

(39:56 – 40:24) Joel: Alright, so, in the community of Harrisonburg what do you think about the whole immigration deal here in Harrisonburg, VA. Do you think they affect Harrisonburg in a good or bad way or does it affect the economy? What do you think on them?

(40:27 – 42:57) Carlos: I think it’s a positive thing to have, I never really liked the idea of not having different—I really liked the idea of having different groups of people together. It shapes the community differently I believe in a positive way. They used to say, this was the melting pot of cultures, people, this and that. That was an interesting topic in history and I really liked it. I still believe that its still a thing, it just brings about different perspectives, you just don’t know what’s going to happen, but I believe positive things are going to happen. Just because we got different minds, different backgrounds, different cultures; so, you know were all borrowing from each other, we learn. Immigrants in the community are a good thing, plus, it’s really easy to get rid of them, when they do something. All of their records, everyone is required to get an ID, identification card. Either going out, getting a drink, or getting anywhere. Most people, they just get a DMV ID card, or license. So, if an immigrant does anything bad, they’re not shaping the community in a positive way; sadly, ICE will come and get them, so there’s a solution for those who are not helping the community grow.

(43:00 – 43:24) Joel: Back to your parents, because like you said you a full-time student since you got here in elementary, middle school, high school, and college. How did your parents rise up in terms of their job status, in terms of their job status, where did they start off as, working wise and how did they get to the level they are now?

(43:25 – 44:09) Carlos: I would say hard work, knowing how to save money, not have any debts; they never went to college, when they arrived here, they started over in Florida, they were picking oranges and apples, you know any type of fruits doing manual labor. One day my dad came over to Harrisonburg to drop off someone and—

(44:10) Joel: He saw that there was business here and more work?

(44:14 – 44:27)Carlos: Yes, he saw that there was more landscaping here, Florida, I’ve never been there, but from the looks of it there’s no landscaping here, there’s a lot of retired people—

(44:28) Joel: Too many Cubans…

(44:24 – 45:50) Carlos: Yeah, that’s pretty much, that’s the city. Over here there’s more farmland. Like I said my dad did landscaping, and there was more landscaping over here, he liked it and it was better paid. Less stressful, the workload wasn’t that heavy, so from there he came over here, he saved up a little bit. Bought some tools and just started his own landscaping company. You know from there, things just got better for him. We can put it as that he’s a good businessman, he knows how to manage his tools, his money, and he knows how to be effective without an education. It’s surprising

(45:51 – 46:05) Joel: Yeah, same, my dad started from nothing and now he owns his own business, and it’s crazy how they did this without education, but that was back in the day where everything was cheaper, and everything was different.

(46:06 – 46:23) Carlos: True, I can see that too. Now there’s even more competition, there’s a lot of competition in landscaping and in all types of businesses.

(46:24 – 46:46) Joel: Your mom, was she more of a stereotypical housewife? How they put it in Latin America, you know when they grow up, they all got to learn how to cook and clean and that their life. Or when she came here, she came to work too or was it different?

(46:47 – 48:19) Carlos: No, she also came to work, what she did was either work for—cleaning houses, working for agencies, I guess not agencies, but also under the table working for other Hispanic people that have a cleaning company. She just tagged along and went out and cleaned, and now she works at a nursery, taking care of plants, planting plants. My dad has always been the, the one who brings the money home, and she just spends that money on food, groceries, clothes for the family; my dad pays for tuition and her money revolves around the family, taking care of us, and my dad takes care of the bills and for our education.

(48:20) Joel: Are your brothers also a part of DACA?

(48:24) Carlos: Yes, they are.

(48:28 – 48:38) Joel: Have any of them gotten in any trouble to have it repealed or are they studying in high school or college right now?

(48:39 – 50:10) Carlos: My younger brother, he’s in community college at the moment, last time I talked to him he was getting ready to apply for new university, you know transfer. Yeah, but he said he wanted to go to VCU, then he was like no I don’t want to anymore. So, I don’t know what his decision was. My older brother he actually dropped out of high school in his junior year, yeah, he didn’t like school, I have no idea why, he was so close to making it. But, yes, so right now its just my middle brother and I who are in college, that’s 2 tuitions my dad has to pay, both coming out of pocket, as previously mentioned, we don’t get any financial aid. Every class, every dollar spent every semester I feel it for him, so I’m out here trying to do my best.

(50:14 – 50:31) Joel: Does your dad in anyway contribute to Harrisonburg with his work or is he a lot about the money and doesn’t care about volunteering?

(50:34 – 53:12) Carlos: I’ll be truthful, he just cares about the money, like I said, he probably wants to go back in about 2 years, back to Honduras, he misses his country. I totally understand where he comes from, because, he came here in his late-mid 30s I believe, you know, to him this isn’t really his community, he wasn’t born and raised. When your born and raised it’s a different feeling, I know I wasn’t either, but I came as a stranger and I still young enough to adapt to the whole feeling of a community, but at his age, still not being able to perfect his English, barely get around with it, I could see why he doesn’t go out or go around his way to help the community around here, because everything, despite being here for around 15 years, it still feels strange, the fact that you weren’t born and raised. But it my conservation, purchasing either equipment, the fact of paying taxes, owning a company, revenue just goes revolves through the whole economy. I would say in a way, that’s still contributing to Harrisonburg and its economy. So, in a way yes, also he bought 2 tractors, he has a whole bunch of working equipment, so that’s also in some type of way contributing to the economy of Harrisonburg, on whole USA as a whole. Wouldn’t you say?

(53:13 – 53:17) Joel: Yeah, the whole macro economy and micro economy.

(53:18 – 53:51) Carlos: Yes, you know your actually doing something and it just revolves and goes back. Your feeding the whole economy of the US when you purchase a vehicle, house, and equipment and tractors like he did. So you know, definitely I would say he was a successful businessman.

(53:52 – 53:59) Joel: Is you dad now, did he apply for his citizenship? Or is he protected under his immigration status?

(54:00 – 55:54) Carlos: No, he hasn’t applied for citizenship, I don’t know if there’s a path for him to have citizenship, but he does have a workers permit and so does my mom. They just received it a year ago. So right now, they have working social securities and valid drivers license and they feel safer now; however, there was, they felt unsafe about giving the government all their information, because they did have to go and place their fingerprints, they had to give up their address, their workplace. So, if anything, out of the blue, if Donald trump decides to place a criteria on certain individuals, previous immigrants under a workers permit, without you know, that don’t have any visas then, visas hold greater power than just a simple workers permit. Because you’re here illegal, and they can take a workers permit anytime. I would say its like a license, and they can take it away anytime. It’s a license that allows you to get a job, lets put it that way.

(55:55) Joel: They’re using it to their full advantage?

(56:00 – 56:31) Carlos: Definitely, you know because, just last week they were going to look for a house, looking to buy a house, which I don’t understand how that connects to the point that he wants to go back to Honduras. But maybe he wants to buy it, and put a down payment and let us finish the payments ourselves or maybe—

(56:32) Joel: He’s making a plan for you guys, giving you guys a place to live?

(56:35 – 57:47) Carlos: Yeah, maybe, he’s actually looking into the long-run, and hopefully he obtains citizenship one day and travel back and forth; since he knows a lot of people that take goods from over here and go over there and sell them. There’s a lot of things going on craigslist that are given away. With this consumption economy, mass production, there’s a lot of things out there in the curve of houses. He knows a lot of people that go around and collect things and take it back to Honduras and sell them and actually make a profit. I think he’s going to do something like that once he gets older and can’t do anymore landscaping and hands-on type of labor.

(57:48 – 58:19) Joel: Now that were under the Trump administration, do you think it’s hard for someone to apply for working visas or visitors visa or even DACA? Do you think its harder for an immigrant to come and work here now? Now than ever before?

(58:20 – 59:06) Carlos:  Like coming from a foreign country? I would say depending on the skills, engineers are always welcomed, but if its physical labor, hands on type of thing, yeah, they’re not going to let them in. I don’t know if you’ve seen the news lately, Trump says any kid born from an illegal immigrant, he wants to strip away they’re citizenship.

(59:07) Joel: That’s not allowed, anyone born here is a naturalized citizen.

(59:11 – 59:26) Carlos: Yeah, it’s a constitutional amendment, but you know, things like that, one day he’s going to find a loophole out of one of his idea, and something might happen, so who knows.

(59:27 – 59:47) Joel: Alright, so, thank you for the interview, this was also for my History 313 class, if I didn’t mention it, and this was the interviewee Carlos Maldonado, and how old are you again?

(59:48) Carlos: I’m 23.

(59:52 – 1:00:08) Joel: So, we just got two students here, one who’s me the interviewer, Joel Ferrel, and Carlos Maldonado. I just want to thank him for doing this with me, and Thank you, and alright goodbye.

TRANSCRIPT-1ousg5q

Nicolas M Iglesias

Interview with Nicolas Iglesias

by Ashley Alderman and Emily Shlapak

Nicolas Iglesias

By: Ashley Alderman and Emily Shlapak

Introduction

My partner and I interviewed Nicolas on Monday, November 26th, at his office in his place of work, Rocktown Realty. Nico was born in Buenos Aires, Argentina in 1974 and lived there until he immigrated to the United States in 2000 at the age of 26.  He currently resides in Harrisonburg, Virginia after moving from Miami in 2015. He works full time as a realtor at Rocktown Realty. We interviewed Nico to find out information specifically about his life in Argentina, what lead him to becoming a citizen of the United States, and ultimately about his life here in Harrisonburg.

Life in Argentina

Nicholas Iglesias is 44-years-old and was born and raised in Argentina. At home in Argentina, him and his father owned a printing company, but the business was not doing well enough to support their family. The lack of success from their printing company is what ultimately pushed Nico to start a life in the states so that he could make a better living. In 2000, he was 26-years-old when he left Argentina to find work in the U.S. What’s important to note is that at the time of Nico’s departure, Argentina was undergoing a severe economic crisis, which was affecting their small printing business. During most of the 90’s, Argentina led mostly all Latin American countries in terms of economic growth. Everything took a turn in the late 90’s due to the country’s currency peg to the U.S. dollar, various fiscal policies, and an excessive amount of foreign borrowing. This left the country in a major currency, debt, and banking depression (The Argentine Crisis 2001/2002).

As seen in the graph, it’s clear to see that Nico left Argentina right before the country was in complete economic disarray. The graph shows the severe dip in the government’s debt as a percentage of GDP. In December 2001, President Rodriguez Saá announced a default on Argentina’s sovereign debt, in which he was forced to resign a few days later. Four different Presidents attempted to take control of Argentina’s economy in December 2001, none of them managed to stay in office (The Argentine Crisis 2001/2002). The volatile economic state of the country coupled with political instability was the “push” from Argentina that justified Nico’s decision.

When asked about any significant event that helped Nico transition to American life, he provided a fascinating response that encapsulates the essence of his “push” from Argentina and his “pull” to America. He said it wasn’t really an event, but the “option to have a future is the big difference.” Nico said that in mostly all of South America you could have an “okay” business but then “in two months, something changes, new taxes… or deflation… You’re gone. You have no idea what’s going to happen. It’s completely unstable.” This brilliant and eye-opening response shed light on the fact a lot of countries current economic/political state does not allow for its own people to have the option of a foreseeable future. Due to Argentina’s state when Nico left, he felt that the country was too unstable to be able to organize himself and plan ahead. That is a luxury that Americans take for granted the ability to make 5 or 10-year plans for the future with the reliance that the government or economy won’t radically decline/shift in an abrupt way. We see our stability as a necessity rather than a luxury. Nico’s response to this question perfectly illustrated his motivation to leave Argentina and migrate to the states.

Change to America

When Nico first arrived in the U.S. he settled in Miami, Florida. A friend he had attended elementary school with was already living in Miami; therefore he saw it as the best option for a place to start. Connecting with this friend allowed him to become part of an already present surrounding Latino community which helped make the move and acclimation to the U.S. easier. He entered the U.S. with a B2 visa, or in other words a tourist visa (Temporary Work Visas). His tourist visa allowed him to stay for 6 months at a time and but did not allow for employment. In Nico’s first year he traveled back and forth from Miami to Argentina 17 times. When asked what he did to make money he explained, “what I was doing is coming in, buying some stuff, buying electronics, buying clothing, going back, selling and trying to start a kind of a business and make a living off that.”  He also worked multiple other jobs to make ends meet, one included making pizza. When traveling back to Argentina he would often get asked about his work, receiving comments such as “Why are you doing it in Miami and not doing it back in Argentina?” when relating to pizza making or he would get ridiculed, his friends constantly asking “why he was going to go and wash dishes for the gringos over there?” and yet these comments didn’t affect his plan. His response would be “Because if I’m doing the dishes, I can live with that money.” His jobs and the opportunities available in Miami were allowing him to save and count on money that wouldn’t have been possible back in Argentina. His employment held in Miami, and the money coming from it showed him a future that he could count on, without the threat that was present in Argentina, that one day he would wake up to it all changing or disappearing.

He received an opportunity to obtain a temporary work visa through his friend who was already working for a cellular company. His friend was able to connect Nico with a job and chance to put down permanent ties in the U.S. While this job created more stability for Nico, he still worked hard, once even holding three jobs at a time. He continued to work for the cellular company for 6 or 7 years until they went under bankruptcy. Due to this he then transferred to another company which also offered him a work visa until he eventually started up his own business. He was able to apply for his green card after 6 years and then worked on applying for his citizenship through his new LLC.

Around the time Nico was applying for his green car, he married his now wife Sandra, in Miami. Sandra was from Columbia and had already been going through her citizenship process when they met. She was steps ahead of Nico and once she was finally a citizen, he was able to expedite his process through her file as well. He and his wife lived in Florida for a total of 5 years after they got married. His business, Pro Arco LLC, a cargo company which specialized in international business, had flourished, however it held a lot of responsibility which was often put solely on Nico. After receiving an offer to sell in 2015, Nico, Sandra and their dog, Shanty decided to complete their mutual goal of moving north. During an annual road trip the trio happened to stop in Harrisonburg where they found everything they were looking for.

Work in Harrisonburg

In September 2015, the family of three packed up and moved to Harrisonburg. When asked why they choose Harrisonburg, Nico responded with one word, “adventure.” Due to the fact that Nico wanted to cut back on working and the original headquarters of Rosetta Stone, the company his wife worked for, was located in Harrisonburg, they saw this as the perfect choice for them. Once settled here Nico planned to take a yearlong sabbatical, however, this ended after just a short 3 months. Previously in Miami, his clients use to ask for and trusted his advice given on investments and properties. With this move, he decided that was what he wanted to continue, but in a more official manor. He got his realtors license in hopes of making a profit on the side of his everyday work, however it ended up becoming a bigger focus than he expected.

“I’m probably not the real, the ideal realtor or, the one that you will figure out that is a realtor,” Nico claimed. Starting out his work mainly focused on investing in properties, calling up those who had asked for advice previously and offering his services officially. His previous work in international business allowed him to create contacts and clients who don’t even live in Harrisonburg, but who now own the buildings. Often times he has sold properties without the client even seeing them. He sees his work as mainly numbers and can convince a client or potential client with only 10 minutes of talking about the logistics of an investment. While he started with a more adviser/behind the scenes approach, his growing connections to Harrisonburg as well as the Latino community are resulting in him becoming a bit more hands on.

Life in Harrisonburg

Nico’s first impression of Harrisonburg is that the place truly encompassed its name of being the “Friendly City.” During Mr. and Mrs. Iglesias’ first Thanksgiving in Harrisonburg, they were completely by themselves and they did not even know where they could buy a turkey. They went to Food Lion and someone that was stocking the shelves took 10 minutes out of their time to explain to them where they could go to buy one and how to get there. Nico recounted that you would never see that type of hospitality in Miami, they’d probably just tell you to “go to the store.” Him and his wife’s encounter with the Food Lion employee was their first symbolic interaction that shaped the way they viewed the city of Harrisonburg. He feels as if he’s acclimated very well to Harrisonburg, especially because it is not a large city. Nico remarks, “I mean I, I know people all around and being here only three years. So that’s the main, the main thing you have friends all over and that helps, really.”

Something important to talk about is the influx of immigration that has occurred in the Harrisonburg community the past few decades. In Harrisonburg and Rockingham County (2017), 16.7% of its citizens are foreign-born, which is bold compared to 10% in the state of Virginia (A Brief History of Immigration in Harrisonburg). More notably there has been a “Latinization of the Central Shenandoah Valley.” Although there are many factors that influenced the surge of immigration in the 90’s, one of them was the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) that was signed in 1992 and took effect in 1994. NAFTA had a negative impact on small Mexican farmers, which caused an influx of Mexican immigrants coming to the U.S. Refugees and immigrants were also drawn to the Shenandoah Valley due to the poultry industry, which mixed the pot of ethnicities that were present in the community (A Brief History of Immigration in Harrisonburg). Essentially, “immigrant recruitment” was occurring in the valley due to the need for workers, notably on farms. The city of Harrisonburg was starting to adapt to the strong presence of immigrants at different levels of the community. According to New Bridges, the Immigrant Resource Center, “by the late 1990s, Harrisonburg City Public Schools provided translation and interpretation support for multiple languages, including Spanish, Arabic, Kurdish, and some Russian” (A Brief History of Immigration in Harrisonburg).

Nico is satisfied with the Latino presence in Harrisonburg because it keeps him socially engaged with the community. Nico says, “We are always getting together for, I would say probably once a month just for fun. Having dinner in different places. We have a group of, I would say probably seven to eight couples, kids, dogs and just get together, have dinner, or probably go to a salsa night in the cross keys vineyard.”

Nico’s Latino friend group is part of his contexts of reception in Harrisonburg because it has helped him adjust the most to life in Harrisonburg. Going from Miami to Harrisonburg certainly entails a form of culture shock, but we think that his Latino connections within the city is what keeps Nico grounded. Nico’s wife was born in Colombia, so this is also a feature of Harrisonburg that she benefits from. As pictured, Cross Keys hosts Salsa Night on a monthly basis, which is a primal example of the city accommodating to the ethnic community. Cross Keys hosting these types of events that appeal to Latinos is another context of reception for Nico, in other words, another way that makes him feel more connected to the community. These types of international events are crucial to a growing, cosmopolitan community that seeks to make its newcomers feel as at home as possible.

Attitudes

When asked if there has ever been bias placed upon him due to being an immigrant in his line of work Nico had a few answers. “Yes and no. I mean, the environment that we have in this company, it’s completely different as you can imagine than any other company that’s, that needs to be said. It’s a complete difference. One of the owners was born in, uh, Netherlands, uh, and lived all over the world, so he speaks like six different languages. We have people from at least 10 different countries working in the company.” Rocktown Realty therefore being a diverse and accepting workplace like a lot Harrisonburg, however he has experienced some issues with his clients. “I get phone calls from a lot of people that I don’t know and as soon as they call me on the phone and get my accent or my last name it’s, “uh, I already have a realtor” or “I’ll call you back later”.” Nico also noted the difference in perceptions in Harrisonburg compared to Miami, “Usually in Florida if they are not really, let’s say, pro-immigrant. They just left you alone. That’s it. Over here, they let you know that they are not willing to let you be basically.”

Nico’s remarks highlight that while Harrisonburg may be called the “Friendly City” and that it has become a lot more diverse over the last few years, there are still people that aren’t as accepting. The context of reception in this case would be that the people and communities in Miami were a lot more willing and/or accepting towards immigrants than in Harrisonburg. We believe this is due to the vast population of diverse people, including immigrants, which are integrated into Miami’s society. If there are any issues, they often aren’t showcased, merely they let it be. While there may be some people against the immigrants in their society, they don’t go out of the way to make people feel rejected or unwanted, they’re merely indifferent. Whereas in Harrisonburg, the “natives” as Nico comments, sometimes aren’t afraid to blatantly show their bias, recalling that “When we moved here, I mean the city was extremely friendly. We know that at the very beginning. But every now and then we, when you hear someone that is really against you– is really against you.”

Conclusion

Nico has been living in the U.S. for 18 years now. He has built a home, strong connections to his community, as well as a successful career and continues to do so.Curious to see his opinion on his journey as an immigrant, we broached the question about if he had any advice to give to others thinking about immigrating to another country, “looking back, I will always try to get a helping hand in advance. Try to know where I’m going to land and if there’s going to be uh plan B, let’s say.”  When we asked Nico to look back at his entire experience immigrating to America, in retrospect, he told us something very humbling: “No, I wouldn’t change anything. I mean, again, that’s basically my way of life. I mean, I did it at the moment, I took my time, I thought about it, I thought this was the best, and if it wasn’t, okay, next.” Venturing into the unknown, not knowing anything besides the fact that the journey will be arduous is a daunting pursuit. What really struck us about Nico was his humility. He was brave enough to take a risk, brave enough to make mistakes, and most importantly, brave enough to learn from those mistakes. He did not judge himself when he messed up, he said “ok, next,” and forged forward. No thinking, just doing. He said he was going to America, and that is exactly what he did. For foreigners to come to America, that long process alone is emotionally and physically taxing. The idea that they can then start a life here and lead a life they are proud of is genuinely impressive beyond words. The resilience of Nico, among thousands of other immigrants, is an admirable quality that we truly need to have more of in America.

Interview with Nicolas Iglesias

By Ashley Alderman and Emily Shlapak

November 26th, 2018 at 4pm

Emily Shlapak (1) : Alright, so if you wanna just start with your name, where you’re from and what life was like, I guess in Argentina,

Nicolas Iglesias(2): What life was like in Argentia ha, well my name is Nicholas Iglesias. I’m from Argentina, i am 44 years old and I started coming to the states when in 2000. Uh, there was a big economic crisis at that time between 2001 in Argentina. I was working with my dad in a project and we own a printing company lets say, and it was not giving us enough money to the both families. Yeah. So I just decided to let him start to stay over there and I’m moved here and start from scratch. But it was easier for me being 20 years old.

Ashley Alderman (3): So you were 20 when you came?

Speaker 2: I was 26

Speaker 1: What was the process like to um, get your visa?

Speaker 2: Extremely hard and difficult. It was, I mean when I first came I came with, uh, what was it, a tourist visa, so it all only allows me to stay for six months, not work for anybody. So what I did was for the first year I traveled back and forth 17 times actually.

Speaker 1: In six months?

Speaker 1: No in a year, a year. Crazy. Let’s say about once a month, let’s say 17 months probably. So what I was doing is coming in, buying some stuff, buying electronics, buying clothing, going back selling and trying to start a kind of a business and make a living for that, uh, after that, I mean, long story short, I started working for a company that sells cellular phones and they offered me to get my visa.I got the visa from them, a work visa, a working visa from them. And that every time that since I started trying to do my own business, what I did was I create my own company and start building my own LLC to get my visa through my company.

Speaker 3: What was your company? Like cellular?

Speaker 2: Uh, yes. It was a generic, buying and selling whatever I can do a basically for export to South America, especially different Argentina. And uh, that was the beginning of it. I worked for three different companies at the moment. The first one was going towards bankruptcy, so I moved to another one, got my visa,  transferred the visa, and then after six years I was able to apply for my green card. At that very moment I got married to my actual wife. She was already a citizen, or getting her citizenship probably a year after we get married.

Speaker 1: Was she from Argentina as well?

Speaker 2: No she’s from Colombia.

Speaker 3: She’s went through the same process kind of too?

Speaker 2: Kind of yeah, she did the basically the same process. We didn’t meet at that time, but she, she could make it faster than me,. So when I could apply for my green card, she was already applied for her citizenship. So I did my green card on her file, let’s say. It was faster for me.

Speaker 1: When you first came here, where did you come to? Harrisonburg?

Speaker 2: No, no that was in Miami. I lived in Miami, uh, 15 years.

Speaker 3 : What made you go to Miami first?

Speaker 2: It was easier. It was the idea to live with some Latino, like community. So Latino community is surrounding, make it easier. One of my biggest friends was living there. Uh, so I moved here, moved there and started working with him.

Speaker 3: So it was people you had previously known?

Speaker 2: Yes. I mean only one, one or two friends that we actually did elementary school together. So I decided to start there. And my always, my goal was to move somewhere, let’s say northern to live really in the states basically.

Speaker 1: Uh, did you guys work together?

Speaker 2: Yes, my friend?

Speaker 1:   Yes.

Speaker 2: Yes, I worked for him. He was working for um, a, a cell phone company and he brought me into the company and we worked together for probably six or seven years. Then when the company was heading to bankruptcy I just moved onto another company.

Speaker 1: Did you like living in Miami?

Speaker 2: Yes and no. I mean it’s a big city, a lot of options, but everything is a, I don’t want to say a mess, but kind of. The worst thing was basically the, the weather weather was too much. Way too much, I mean eighties, at least all year, round around way too much. So again, after we got married, uh, probably five years after we were married, yes, between four or five years, we both have the same idea of let’s move somewhere else and it just happened to be in Harrisonburg

Speaker 3: You came over alone you said?

Speaker 2: Yes

Speaker 3: But did any of your family ever come over?

Speaker 2: Not to live here. They visit at least once a year. Uh, I’m actually going to Argentina next week for 10 days. Uh, it’s my oldest brother, my only brother, 50th birthday, so I’m flying to. I’m going to see him and stay with my family. My mother was here about two, three weeks ago. She usually comes once a year, at least, my brother every now and then. I haven’t even seen my sister in three years, uh nephew’s every now and then. It’s, I mean it’s long trip and an expensive trip,  so it’s not easy for them to come over, especially big families.

Speaker 1: How did you make the decision to come to Harrisonburg, like harrisonburg  specifically?

Speaker 2: That’s uh, Okay. I will, I mean, if I have to say only one word, it will be adventure basically. Uh, I worked for myself for the last 15 years probably, or at least 10. I owned a cargo company in Miami. I was working way too much to be honest. All the records, all the stuff was on my shoulders, all the time. Um, so once a year , for usually holidays we did a road trip. Sandra, my wife, the dog and me, just the three of us driving around somewhere, usually north specially to Canada. I have a friend  who was in elementary school with me yet, so I’m still in touch with him and try to meet each other at least once a year with him. So on one of those trips we happened to stop in harrisonburg. Uh, we liked the city, it was nice, it was friendly, completely different. We were like okay this has all the seasons, you can actually see the changes.

Speaker 1: Yeah that’s why my family moved, cause I use to like in Florida, like West Palm beach area.

Speaker 2: Okay, well the last, my last address in Miami, Florida was um Davy, fort lauderdale?

Speaker 1: Oh okay fort lauderdale! Yeah but I was from Jersey, but we missed the four seasons so we moved back so that’s why. Yeah.

Speaker 2: So, and that trip also I mean, uh, Sandra, my wife works for Rosetta stone, Rosetta stone start here, it started here, the very best big, first beginning of the song encouraged.So, and that also, I mean, uh, Sandra, my wife works for Rosetta stone, Rosetta stone start here, it started here, the very  first beginning of Rosetta stone was in Harrisonburg.

Speaker 1: Oh I was not aware of that

Speaker 2: So she is, a Spanish coach, online coach, so they have to work from certain cities. Usually it’s main cities, Miami, New York, Texas, whatever. And this is one of them being the first one that they had. And we said okay, we can, she can still work from home. And I just, uh, we just decided to move here, one year after we were basically moving.

Speaker 1: What made you transition from the cargo business to realty?

Speaker 2: Uh, I again, was in international business for many years. Most of my clients have too much money in their own countries. They can’t spend it over there because tax purposes or that kind of problems. So they started looking at me for some advisors. So I’m trying to see where they can buy or what they can do with the money. I help them to buy many properties in Miami, but without a license, just telling them what to do or where to buy. When I sold the cargo company, I moved here with an idea of one year of a sabbatical year and do nothing and just wind down. And after two or three months I’d say, okay, I can get my license. I got my license and start exploring a little bit more and started looking at properties. I bought one for myself as an investment. It was too good to be true too. So I get really deep into it. Got into it, got my license and thought okay, I can do something on the side to make a profit and you end up with it being way deeper and bigger than I thought. So I just focused completely on it.

Speaker 1: Do you enjoy being a realtor?

Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. Uh, I’m probably not the real, the ideal realtor or, the one that you will figure it out that is a realtor,

Speaker 3: Like the image?

Speaker 2: The image. Yes. The standard, because for example, I tend or try not to work on the weekends, which is not really a feasible for our standard realtor, but um, most of my clients are investors. 90 percent I’ve focused in investing in properties and I have probably , I can say about 50 properties I have sold, that the buyer didn’t see because it’s just numbers. I mean this is a property, I can do this, I need to do this, do this, and then it is going to be rented at that, okay done, make the offer. So it’s kind of a different approach. But I’m getting lately, probably  for the last six months and in the near future, I’m getting involved really deep with the Latino community so that will make me probably have to move a little more on the weekends. But the last, we just added two new realtors to the team and both speak Spanish and they’re both new so probably all the leads that need more attention and more being taken care of over the weekends, they will help me and do that.

Speaker 3: Has being an immigrant and your previous knowledge of the international trades and all that, has that helped you as a realtor or just ever affected you negatively?

Speaker 2: No, it helped me really. I mean, again, most of my clients, at least my first clients were who I started calling and I saying I can do this instead of a meeting. There’s a big difference buying a condo in Miami for $200,000 and one here for 50.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it’s crazy.

Speaker 2: So calling them with that kind of differences and the rent here, it was even bigger than the one that you can have in the $200,000 in Miami. They were starting calling me back so it really helped me, the knowledge, and I’m a number person. I am. I mean it just comes to me. It’s, it’s easy for me. So all that as a  background really helped me. It probably hurts me in the kind of way that I’m really a, again, linked to investments and that kind of unattached to a property. I mean if it will make me profit, I will give it. If no one will sell it I’ll make you sell it. So every time that, I mean, everybody’s attached to a property or thing that the property is worth more because they grow up there or something that is kind of hard for me because I’m, I see numbers, but uh, other than that, it really helped me

Speaker 1: Have you experienced any bias in the workplace or from potential clients due to being an immigrant, so like people’s attitudes towards you or

Speaker 2: Hm? Yes and no. I mean, the environment that we have in this company, it’s completely different as you can imagine in any other company that’s, that needs to be said. It’s a complete difference. One of the owners was born in, uh, Netherlands, uh, and lived all over the world, so he speaks like six different languages. We have people from at least 10 different countries working in the company. So that’s a different, completely different kind of environment. With customers- yes, I have been, I mean, every now and then we do a lot of investment in advertisement in Zillow. So I get phone calls from a lot of people that I don’t know and as soon as they call me on the phone and get my accent or my last name it’s, “uh, I already have a realtor” or “I’ll call you back later”. Yes. But either investors and they hear me ten minutes about numbers then I can flip them over, but uh, I need to fight it. I need to fight it yes.

Speaker 1: Would you say it’s more so or less than in Miami?

Speaker 2: I’m not in same field that I was in Miami, but I will say probably, you can feel it more here probably, because I’m dealing with a lot of, uh, investors from, I mean from, and I want to, I don’t want to say native, but really American people looking for investors for the investments that it’s a completely different scenario than Miami.

Speaker 1: Miami would probably bring people from all over too.

Speaker 2: Yeah. So they, I mean the, they’re used to it.

Speaker 3: Was it more worse say like when you first got here? Because Harrisburg has  grown to be more of a diverse/friendly place.

Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, yes. When we moved here, I mean, especially now after three years we have a big group of Latino friends, but uh, when we moved here, I mean the city was extremely friendly. We know that at the very beginning. But every now and then we, when you hear someone that is really against you– is really against you.

Speaker 3: Yeah, there’s no medium. They’re stuck with their older values.

Speaker 2: Usually in Florida if they are not really, let’s say, pro-immigrant. They just left you alone. That’s it. Over here, they let you know that they are not willing to let you be basically.

Speaker 1: Um, was there any like significant event that happened either here or in Florida that helped you transition most to American life? We got the big questions here.

Speaker 2: *sigh* I know ha. Uh, it’s not one. Uh, basically the option to have a future here is the big difference. That, uh, every time that I’ll go back to Argentina and speak with my friends or my family and say I can predict, I can know what I’m going to be doing in the next five years, at least, 10 years. That’s a big difference. Back in South America let’s say,  I mean even, I mean Columbia, Argentina, whatever, we can be, you have no idea how much, the value of your money today or tomorrow, or at two months.You know inflation, deflation,

Speaker 1: So it’s hard to like plan ahead?

Speaker 2: Correct. Yes. Because I could have an okay business in Argentina or Colombia, so any, any country in South America, let’s say, as it is today, Chile out of the question basically it’s more stable. But all the rest of South America, you can have a okay business today in two months, something changes, new taxes or money drops or deflation, whatever. You’re gone. You have no idea what’s going to happen. It is completely unstable. So that was a big difference and that was what made me come to America and say I can start, work hard, but make some progress and say okay, in 10 years I want to do this and being able to.

Speaker 1: So it helped you transition because you could organize yourself and plan ahead?

Speaker 2: Mhm, yes, basically.

Speaker 3: Were you originally planning on staying in the U.S.?

Speaker 2: Yes. That was the plan. I have no idea why. I mean, it was, uh, when I came to the states for the first time when I was 14, when my, when my dad was working for Dupont and one of his trips he just brought me in. Okay. I wanted to live there and it was just on the back of my mind all the time. And again, in 2001 when I started flying back and forth, there was also the option to go to Canada. It was probably easier for me to get the visa, whether a student visa or do something different, but I just happened to be Miami. I mean, just I choose.

Speaker 1: From people back in Argentina, what do you think holds them back from coming here and starting a life?

Speaker 2: Uh, it is probably English will be one of, the language barrier could be one of the options. Uh, I studied English in my, in Argentina for 12 years. It’s not that common, but most of the middle class will at least have a knowledge and be able to communicate. But, I mean the idea of a friendship in the states is completely different than the one that we have in Argentina. And even, I guess, that Argentina is completely different to the rest of South America. Front door of my house was not technically open for security purpose, but any friend that was just walking over and just knock on the door. Come on in. Let’s get a coffee, drink mate, or whatever altogether every time. No, no need to call ahead and make an appointment or other kind of stuff that basically we are used to here. I mean it’s really weird that or really not common for you to go over a friend’s house and just knock on the door here.

Speaker 1: That’s true… you got to call..

Speaker 2: Call ahead, oh you’re going  to be home two hours. I’ll be there. So over there is just, I’m here, let’s do something. So I guess that’s one of the bigger issu es and family, being able to have a family, being content with family, that’s probably one of them.

Speaker 3: Do you have any children?

Speaker 2: No.

Speaker 3: Do you plan on having any?

Speaker 2: We tried, we planned, but it didn’t work. We are not going to be crazy about it. We have a beautiful dog.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw that.

Speaker 2: 6 years old

Speaker 1: What’s his or her name?

Speaker 2: His, its Shanty. He’s a rescue. Yes. Black lab rescue from Miami. He came from Miami with us.

Speaker 1: Does he have a lot of energy?

Speaker 2: Yes. I love dogs. I love animals. I trained him myself. So he knows that inside the house is, it has to be mellow.

Speaker 1: Alright. We have a few more questions then we’ll be closing out. But. So what’s your favorite thing about being part of the Harrisonburg community?

Speaker 2: I would say probably friendly.

Speaker 1: People are so nice here. I’m from Jersey and everyone is so mean up there.

Speaker 2: Again, one particular event that happened when we moved in, uh, we moved in September in 2015. The first Thanksgiving were completely alone. No, we didn’t know anybody. What happened was we drove by on that first trip, a year later we just took one of the cars, putting it on a train, came here.  Getting into this office just randomly, rent the property from them and two weeks after just move all the stuff together here, so we didn’t know anybody. So we’re completed by ourselves. Thanksgiving we went to Food Lion and we were willing to buy a turkey breast because only two person. And the guy that was on the shelves in Food Lion took probably 10 minutes to explain us where to go to get it from, Carlisle, or Geroge, i do not remember which one, the outlet, a business that they have, the store that they have. So he took the time to explain and details, in this this corner this is Sheetz, on the left, whatever it is on the right. They really took care and make sure that we were pointed in the right direction. And that was great.

Speaker 1: You don’t see that everywhere.

Speaker 2: No no, I mean if it was Miami they’ll probably tell you “I mean, go to the store”. In Jersey, they’ll probably just ignore you basically

Speaker 3: Half the time you just get no response.

Speaker 2: So that’s the main thing. Being a basically a small city, you know everybody. I mean I, I know people all around and being here only three years. So that’s the main, the main thing you have friends all over and that helps, really.

Speaker 3: What does your community, do you guys do any game nights like for example, or like getting together for any holidays?

Speaker 2: Yes, yes. Uh, we, we are always getting together for, I would say probably once a month just for fun. Having dinner in different places. We have a group of, I would say probably seven to eight couples, kids, dogs and just get together, have dinner, or probably go to a salsa night in the cross keys vineyard. I don’t dance, but my wife does.

Speaker 1: It’s always just fun to listen to it though. Salsa music gets you up

Speaker 2: Yeah, completely. I mean, again my wife is an immigrant, she’s from Colombia so she dances and she loves to dance. I can’t and I don’t want to learn, but I can take her.

Speaker 1: You definitely could haha

Speaker 2: I probably could, but I know I don’t like it.It’s not gonna happen.

Speaker 1: All right. So we’ll make this our last question for this. Um, so, uh, for anyone I guess that it’s thinking about like leaving their country or wants to make that leap of faith to come to America or any country really, uh, what words of advice would you give to them in making that, I guess, jump? Like looking back on your experience.

Speaker 2: Looking back, I will always try to get a helping hand in advance. Try to know where I’m going to land and if there’s going to be uh plan B, let’s say.

Speaker 1: Yeah, so don’t just like put all your eggs in one basket and then you can’t?

Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes. Try to see, uh, what was, what was going to be the plan. Of course everything can change and going back again. Mostly, I mean, some friends back home will ask you, what are you going to be doing? Uh, I cooked pizza for probably two years here. “Why are you doing it in Miami and not doing it back in Argentina?” Because, well, doing this here, I can live. In Argentina, no. That’s the big difference. From as less as I get paid and what he said, “are you going to go and wash dishes for the gringos over there. Why?” Because if I’m doing the dishes, I can live with that money. I can know that I can pay my rent and keep $100 at the end of the month if I want to. I’m not going to be able to do it or project back in Argentina in South America because it’s, you don’t know what’s gonna happen.

Speaker 1: So have a backup plan, have like the resources here?

Speaker 2: Get something in advanced , get something that you could rely on. And that being,  if you have someone that can point you in the right direction, uh, that will make a big difference. Big Difference.

Speaker 3: Okay wait actually one more last. Is there anything you wish or should have done differently in your process of coming here, becoming a citizen, anything?

Speaker 1: Or no regrets?

Speaker 2: No, I mean, but that’s my way of life basically. I did what I thought it was right at the moment and if I made a mistake, I admit it. That’s it. But it was part of the process,yes

Speaker 1: *interjection* And you learned?

Speaker 2: Yes, of defining where I’m going to go next. *pause* No, I wouldn’t change anything. I mean, again, that’s basically my way of life. I mean, I did it at the moment, I took my time, I thought about it, I thought this was the best, and if it wasn’t, okay, next.  Then try to change it. But, but uh, no, change no, no, no, no. I wouldn’t change.

Speaker 1: You wouldn’t be here right now you know.

Speaker 2: Exactly. Probably wouldn’t meet my wife or get the dog that I have now. I mean you can do a lot of different. I would probably be more smart with money, uh, at   the beginning because, I was doing really good in Miami at one point and living a really good life. I mean I won’t regret I won’t change it, but if I did different I will probably be able to stay on track instead of having to downsize and selling the house, return a leased car, all the kind of things that you see easy when you have the money or,I mean, all the advantages that you have being able to live here. For us coming from the, from, from South America, it’s a bit easier now. Now I can lease a Mercedes Benz for $400 a month. That’s cheap basically. I mean there’s a lot of money, but it’s cheap. Okay let’s get it. I mean, why? I mean if you’re saving $500 at the end of month after paying the car. Yes? Well, okay, you probably can afford it, but if  you are not saving the money? Uh, no, why didn’t you get a Corolla and pay 200? Is it basically the same? So that’s the only thing that I’d probably change. Uh, because as soon as you start, start doing better with money, growing, you usually start to spend more and that’s the end of it. At one point it’s going to be, yes, you’re going to pay for it.

Speaker 1&3: Yeah. True. All right. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2: No problem! My pleasure.

 

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