Interview with Prof. H Gelfand from James Madison University

H Gelfand is a history professor at James Madison University. In this interview, he talks about many of the extraordinary things that happened in his life, as well as the incredible people he’s met. We also talk about H’s career as a professor and as a historian.

First Half (30 minutes)

Seth Davis: [00:00:01] All right. This is Seth Davis. I’m here with H. Gelfand He’s a professor at James Madison University. It is Thursday October 25th at three thirty nine p.m., it is a cloudy afternoon. Would you mind just stating your name age and what you do?

H Gelfand: [00:00:17] Yes hello I’m H and I teach in the history department I also teach interdisciplinary liberal studies and honors.

Seth Davis: [00:00:22] Awesome. What brought you to Harrisonburg?

H Gelfand: [00:00:24] I got offered a job here.

Seth Davis: [00:00:26] Really?

H Gelfand: [00:00:27] Yes.

Seth Davis: [00:00:30] Where do you come from originally?

H Gelfand: [00:00:31] I grew up in northern New Jersey right outside of New York City and stay there until I was 17. Do you want me to tell you the whole story?

Seth Davis: [00:00:39] Yes please.

H Gelfand: [00:00:40] Okay so I was there until I was 17 and I graduated high school then I went to University of Georgia where I got my undergraduate degree. Then I went to the University of Kentucky for a year and a half and got my first master’s degree. Then I moved back to Athens Georgia and I worked for a history professor for two years. Then I got my second master’s degree in history. Then I moved to Tucson and went to the University of Arizona where I got my history PhD. And then I moved for one year to Phoenix where I taught at Arizona State University. Then I moved back to Tucson and taught for two years at year of Arizona. And then I started teaching here.

Seth Davis: [00:01:15] Awesome.

H Gelfand: [00:01:16] In a nutshell that’s the whole thing.

Seth Davis: [00:01:18] What made you get into–

H Gelfand: [00:01:19] (Jokingly) No other questions.

Seth Davis: [00:01:20] No other questions!

H Gelfand: [00:01:20] What got me into history? 

Seth Davis: [00:01:23] Yeah.

H Gelfand: [00:01:24] So it’s it’s a strange story but I’ll give you the abbreviated version. So in between what I just told you I had graduated from the University of Kentucky and the degree was in diplomacy and the goal was that I was going to work for something called a Foreign Agriculture Service. And the idea was that I was going to go to Africa and attempt to help people figure out more efficient methods of agriculture so that in drought or I guess you would say like areas stricken with some sort of like horrible problem that we would go over and educate them as to how to plant better how to plant more diverse or something like that. And while I was in the process of training for that the federal government eliminated the entire project. So I was left no job and so I was trying to figure out what to do. So I went back to Athens where I knew a bunch of people and I was trying to find a job and I could not find a job and one day I was walking by the history building at the University of Georgia and there was this light on and it was the office of this professor who I’d had when I was a freshman. So we’re talking like six years before that. So it just sort of out of desperation I went up to his office and I was just like… I think he remembered my face but not my name. No idea who I was and I told him my situation and I said “I just need a job. Do you know of anything?” and he said “No.” And as I was shutting the door he said “Wait come back” and I went back in and he made a phone call and he had this conversation. He said “My best friend in this department just found out today that he has cancer, and he’s going to need somebody to organize all of the papers in his world so that all of it can be organized and given to the library before he dies. Could you do that?” And I’m like “Fuck yeah.”

**omitted**

H Gelfand: [00:06:28] So that’s how it happened.

Seth Davis: [00:06:34] All right. Other than teaching what have you done with your a history degree.

H Gelfand: [00:06:40] Well I’ve done a bu– I guess a bunch of things. So when I went out two years of Arizona, I realized that because getting a PhD is really intense that I was going to need something and kind of take my mind off of the intensity. So I don’t know how or why it occurred to me now but one day, Tucson has this enormous air force base in it because all of the planes that the military stores they’re all stored at this Air Force Base and so there’s tens of thousands of airplanes. So there’s very sort of strange facilities all around the city of Tucson. And so one day I just drove to the Air Force Base, this was way before 9/11 when you could still drive on military bases, and I met up with the the base cultural resources manager and I said to her “I’m H I have a Ph– or I’m getting a PhD. I said Do you have something that I could do as a volunteer job” And she’s like “What do you want to do?” And I’m like “I have no idea what needs to be done?” And she said “Well” she said “We have a couple of old airplane hangars that we’re trying to get preserved. You could write the reports on them” and I’m like “Fuck yeah. So every Friday, because they did a class on Fridays, I just go sit in this tiny little like wooden building at this Air Force Base that was built during World War 2. And I would just go over all of these architectural plans and all these logs and I wrote these two reports. And– then one day just by some weird coincidence this other graduate student said to me, **omitted** “Don’t you do something at the Air Force?” and I said “Yeah.” And he said “Oh because I’m looking for a summer job and I saw this in a printed it out for you.” And it was in advertisement for a job working for the Air Force doing historic preservation work which was exactly what I was doing for the Air Force in Tucson. The only problem was that this was like, on, I don’t know it say, like a Wednesday and the due date was on the previous Monday. So I was like (gestures confusingly). So I called the phone number and I said to the guy you know “I realize some company is late. Have you already filled the position?” And he said “Do you have a fax machine?” And the history department had a fax. So I fax in my resume. And five minutes later he calls back he says “I want you to apply right now.” And I’m like “Okay.” So I apply and I get this job and so what it led to is that all the summers of my PhD I was employed by the Air Force.

Seth Davis: [00:09:07] Wow.

H Gelfand: [00:09:07] And so I got to go to all these Air Force bases around the country. (Walks over to bookshelf) So if you look at all of these books here that have these stealth fighters on them I helped to write or edit all of them.

Seth Davis: [00:09:19] Really?

H Gelfand: [00:09:19] And those were all out of an Air Force Base in New Mexico and then I was at an Air Force Base in Virginia down in Hampton, Virginia. I was down there for a while. And then I was at an Air Force Base outside of Tacoma, Washington. That was one summer, and then one summer I said– spent living in Santa Barbara even though there’s not an air force base there. There is a government contracting firm that was doing a big products live there. And so I got all these publications and I got all this expertise in historic preservation. So that’s part of what I do now on the side of– of the teaching part, is I’m the head of a historic preservation organization in New Jersey.

Seth Davis: [00:10:04] Really?

H Gelfand: [00:10:04] And it’s called the Bergen County Historical Society. That’s that certificate up there.

Seth Davis: [00:10:09] Mm hmm.

H Gelfand: [00:10:09] And basically what I do is I am the person who advocates for all these buildings being kept standing around. This is a county that is across the Hudson River from Manhattan. So it’s the greater New York City metro. So there’s as you might imagine a lot of pressure a development because people want to make a lot of money. So right now, I don’t know if I’ve told you this before, but right now the big project that we’re working on is a place called the Van Gelder studio which I did not even know about. We have a professor in the history department named Lamont King who is a jazz musician and Lamont and I talk about music all the time and one day he gave me this uh, this John Coltrane CD. And he said “You should listen to this.” And I’m like “OK.” And I’m reading all the liner notes and I see it is recorded at this place that’s in a town up in the county where I grew up and I’m like (makes surprised expression). So I called them up and I’m like “What is the deal with the studio?” He goes “It’s the most important music studio in the world.” He’s like “How do you not know about it?” And I’m like “I have no idea.” So the next summer I go to New Jersey and I look the place up in the phone book and I call. And the guy at the time was 92.

Seth Davis: [00:11:16] Really.

H Gelfand: [00:11:16] And he had built a studio in 1958. It’s designed by a couple of students of Frank Lloyd Wright. And it’s believed to be the first music studio that was ever designed and built as a music studio, because most of them are just in other buildings like Sun Studios where Elvis– it’s a little just a storefront.

Seth Davis: [00:11:35] Mm hmm.

H Gelfand: [00:11:35] And then NBC and CBS they did all these jazz and rock and roll recordings in New York City but they’re all just news office buildings. So uh– so yes I’ve been the lead person on this big effort to get the building saved. So it’s a really incredible project. Yeah. John Coltrane recorded what a lot of people consider to be the most important recording of all of music which is called A Love Supreme.

Seth Davis: [00:11:59] Mm hmm.

H Gelfand: [00:11:59] In that studio.

Seth Davis: [00:12:00] Wow.

H Gelfand: [00:12:01] Yeah. And then his last recording which came out just after he died, he was a heroin addict and he– he died the year that I was born. And a couple of months later his final CD came out and it’s called Interstellar Space. And that’s the specific recording that if you read Beyonce, Kendrick Lamar, Dr. Dre, all these people they say this is the piece of music that created hip hop.

Seth Davis: [00:12:28] Really?

H Gelfand: [00:12:28] So it’s just kind of interesting that the tail end of his career the beginning and the end is two big recordings are in that studio. Yeah.

Seth Davis: [00:12:34] I’ve just really gotten into Kendrick Lamar so I should try to check that out.

H Gelfand: [00:12:37] You should check– yeah. If you listen to A Love Supreme it’s very very sort of beautiful interesting recording where he attempts to bring in a lot of tribal music from various places in Africa. It’s a very very interesting recording. Yeah. A lot of people have thought about that but Interstellar Space is a totally different ballgame. You might really like that. It’s a little bit out there that sounds kind of fun.

Seth Davis: [00:12:58] So going back to you where you grew up in New Jersey you might tell me a little bit about your childhood?

H Gelfand: [00:13:04] Well I guess the sort of kicker of it **omitted** is that I’m adopted.

Seth Davis: [00:13:14] Really?

H Gelfand: [00:13:15] Which I did not know. So I basically just you know grew up in this very modest middle class household, older sister, parents. My dad was a superintendent for a school system. My mom was the vice president of a company that makes furniture fabric.

Seth Davis: [00:13:29] Mm hmm.

H Gelfand: [00:13:30] And then I just kind of ordinary middle class New Jersey lifestyle you know nothing particularly fancy. You know like a lot of other people you know went to New York all the time to do– for a while my parents really big into go into Broadway musical so we did a lot of that and, just kind of average lifestyle. Yeah. **omitted**

H Gelfand: [00:13:56] Anyway.

Seth Davis: [00:13:57] All right. Let me find another question to ask. I have a lot so don’t worry. Let’s see.

H Gelfand: [00:14:04] You’re welcome to ask all of them.

Seth Davis: [00:14:07] Huh?

H Gelfand: [00:14:07] You can ask all of them.

Seth Davis: [00:14:09] Okay, let’s see. All right. So you mentioned that these books here you helped write, are there any books that you’ve written yourself?

H Gelfand: [00:14:18] Yeah. It’s called See Change at Annapolis. It’s about the Naval Academy. And uh– yeah that– so one of these summers that I had been working for the Air Force I was working at the Pentagon and, sort of a funny story because the woman who is my supervisor just decided from day one to dislike me. So I called the supervisor and I was just like “I don’t know what to do because this woman apparently is not going to like me.” So he then arranged for me to get a job working for the National Park Service for the summer.

Seth Davis: [00:14:49] Really.

H Gelfand: [00:14:49] Doing the same thing just with the National Park Service. So that turned out to be a much much better job. And the woman who is my boss who has incredible title, her title is the keeper of the National Register of Historic Places. So she is like in charge of making all the decisions about what gets listed or not listed in terms of historic purposes. So once a week I had to go to the Library of Congress and get her books for her. And uh the library Congress is not like most libraries. You make a request and then hours later somebody arrives with your books because they have so many books there everything is in storage. So a couple of weeks before, there is this one day that I go, a couple weeks before this friend of mine, his dad is an Air Force general down at Langley Air Force Base in Hampton, invited me to come down for this big party weekend that they were going to have and he said “Is there any way you can on the way down here can you stop in Annapolis and take this friend of ours up?” and I’m like whatever. So this kid went to the Naval Academy which I’d never been to before so I go in and pick him up and then we have like a three hour ride down to Hampton so we’re chatting the whole way and I’m learning all this stuff at the Naval Academy and then I bring him back. And he says “Have you ever gone on a grand tour of the Naval Academy?” and I said no. He’s like “Well then why don’t I show you around?” So look around and I’m like you know very interesting place I know have you’ve been there before. I’ve been to West Point a bunch of times because it’s right by New York City but, so this one afternoon I’m just waiting and waiting waiting for these fucking books at the Library of Congress. And I needed to pick a topic for my dissertation.

Seth Davis: [00:16:27] Mm hmm.

H Gelfand: [00:16:28] And so I just typed into the computer “Naval Academy” and almost nothing comes up. And then you type in “West Point” and it’s like every year dozens of books are written about West Point because all these war generals came from there and so people are like obsessed with West Point. And then all the world war 2 generals. So the next day I call over to the Naval Academy Library I do what you’re not just do I call the reference desk. And I’m like you know here’s who I am and I need a topic. Do you think– you know the woman said you know “What kind of things you’re interested in?” And I said “I’ve been envisioning doing something either deals with race or ethnicity or gender or maybe all three of them.” And she said “What are you doing at lunchtime tomorrow?” and I said nothing she said “Can you say can you drive over here?” and I said yeah. She said “I’ll arrange for a tour of the archive.” and I said OK. Well as it turned out I got the history librarian. And so I get over there and she and the archivist and I were walking through the archive and I don’t know if you ever seen like a documentary archive it’s basically rafters that are filled with boxes from the floor to the ceiling. And this guy says “Well you know we have like these fifty seven boxes about the integration of black people here that have never been opened. So I have no idea what’s in them.” And we go down the next row and he says “This entire wall is papers about the integration of women. These things have never been opened and I’m like (surprised expression). So I called my dissertation advisor back in Tucson I said “I think I have a topic.” There’s like hundreds of boxes of shit that has not been opened. So– so I ended up living at the Naval Academy for two years and the guy who was the admiral who headed up the school was John McCain’s roommate for all four years. And so I subsequently later on got to know John McCain and John McCain wrote the foreword to the book.

Seth Davis: [00:18:17] That’s amazing.

H Gelfand: [00:18:17] Yeah. So it’s sort of like a really fun topic. Yeah fun project. Living in a place like that was a really extraordinary experience.  It was a very interesting thing. **omitted** It was a very very intense and memorable two years in my life. Yeah. And then the dissertation turned into a book.

Seth Davis: [00:19:03] That’s awesome.

H Gelfand: [00:19:04] Yeah it’s very exciting.

Seth Davis: [00:19:05] So you mentioned you knew John McCain.

H Gelfand: [00:19:08] Yeah.

Seth Davis: [00:19:08] And I see there he wrote you a personal autograph.

H Gelfand: [00:19:10] Yeah.

Seth Davis: [00:19:11] Do you mind, uh, sharing a little bit about any encounters you had with John McCain.

H Gelfand: [00:19:14] Yeah. So what happened is um– so one of the nice things about the PhD program at the University of Arizona is that they allow graduate students to teach their own classes so that when we go on the job market we’ve now told our own classes which is basically how I got the job here because by the time I taught here I’d already taught nine different classes and most– mostly at University of Arizona, few at Arizona State. And so one of the classes that I was teaching every summer is the class called Vietnam and the Cold War, it’s a Vietnam War class. And it’s done in what is called The Summer Precession there which is a three week period. So you go to class every day for four hours Monday through Friday for three weeks. So it’s very intense. Students are only allowed to take one class at a time. And what’s really awesome is, because we’re together all day, they– it’s just a very intense learning experience because you’re just sort of living and breathing only this well because it’s also so short. You can’t really assign very long books. So John McCain has this one of his uh– autobiographies which covers the time of Vietnam. So I assigned it. And so the first year I just sent him a letter and I just said you know ” I’m teaching this class they’re reading your book do you want to come here?” Nothing. Second year, same thing nothing. Third year I don’t know why I did it the third year but I faxed the invitation, and– maybe like two weeks before the class. And then on the last week– I want to say it was like on Wednesday, I get done teaching and I’m leaving the building, and one of the history secretaries comes running after me. She’s like “Don’t leave yet don’t leave” and I’m like “What’s the problem?” She goes she has this piece of paper she goes “You have to call this number” and I’m like “What is this number?” she goes “It’s John McCain’s office” and I’m like oh dear God. So I call and it’s his scheduler up in Phoenix. Phoenix is about about an hour and a half to two hour drive from Tucson. So I call the woman says “McCain is coming tomorrow to Tucson. Do you want him to come to your class?” And I’m like fuck yeah. And she’s like “He can only spend 15 minutes” and I’m like if he can spend 15 seconds that’s great. So I’ll tell you this story because it’s actually so funny. So our class is being held in the business school and the College of Business Arizona is this massive thing. It’s very highly ranked. And so they have a building which is sort of like a a big rectangle and there is this huge outdoor atrium in the middle. And it has like all these palm trees and it has like a waterfall and a pond and all this stuff. It’s very beautiful. And our classroom was off of this courtyard. And, uh, but– that sort of sunk it into the ground so to get to our classroom you have to actually enter from the floor above which is facing the street. So I get all dressed up. I’m outside by the street waiting for McCain to show up. I have no idea how McCain is showing because I don’t know what the protocol is for a senator coming into campus. So I don’t know if there’s gonna be like a police escort or a helicopter I have no idea what’s going to happen. So I’m waiting and waiting and all the sudden like 10 cop cars come like, sirens full blast come pull up before the building and these dudes all go running in the building and I’m like holy shit this is awesome. So I said to one of them. I said “Are you here for John McCain?” And he goes “No I’m here for the naked guy.” I have no idea what that means I’m just like OK. And then this Honda Accord pulls up and out pops John McCain and McCain I’d like– I’m like– Seth I’m just like totally dumbfounded because there he is.

Seth Davis: [00:22:52] Yeah.

H Gelfand: [00:22:53] I’d seen it on TV like a million times. And he was a lot shorter and a lot more crippled than I had anticipated he would be. And so I walked up to him and I shook his hand and he said “What’s with all the cop cars?” And I said “I’m not really sure exactly. I thought maybe they’re coming for you.” and he’s like “For me?” and he’s sort of laughing he’s like “I’m not that important.” Like, OK. So we go up these stairs into the building and then down the stairs. And when we are approaching the waterfall part. There’s this homeless dude who just decided to take his clothes off and just go swimming in this pond. So as McCain and I are walking by the guy is like this (mimics being handcuffed) junk out right in front of us. And McCain just stops and he looks at me and he says “You know, I’ve been a guest at Arizona State University many times. They’ve never arranged to have a naked guy to greet me.” I was just like– And at that moment I knew that he was going to be like totally awesome.

Seth Davis: [00:23:50] Yeah.

H Gelfand: [00:23:52] So uh– so instead of spending the 15 minutes he spent the entire four hours with our class.

Seth Davis: [00:23:57] Wow.

H Gelfand: [00:23:57] And his son if you saw, I don’t know if you watched the funeral, the son that was sitting with his wife who is in the Navy now he was graduating high school that night.

Seth Davis: [00:24:05] Oh really.

H Gelfand: [00:24:05] And McCain was late to the graduation because he was in my class.

Seth Davis: [00:24:08] Wow.

H Gelfand: [00:24:09] And he first lectured. And then when he got done lecturing his assistant who drove him she was like sort of hinting that they needed to leave to get on the road back to Phoenix. And he comes up to me he whispers in my ear and he says “Do you mind if I talked to all of your students individually?” And I’m like “I’m sure they would love it.” They all had their books. And so he said at a desk and each one of them came and sat, talked to him face and he asked you know who are you, where are you from, what’s your major, what’s your life plan. He signed your books and up until he just died two of those students were still working for him, one in Phoenix and one in DC. That’s how fucking nice he was. So on the way out he said to me “I didn’t even ask, like, who are you, what do you do?” and I said “I’m a history PhD student.” And he said “What are you studying?” And I said “Well I’m writing my dissertation it’s about the Naval Academy.” And he goes “Do you know that I went there?” and I’m like “Yeah because your roommate is the guy that ran the school for the two years” and he’s like “You know Chuck Larson?” And I’m like “Yeah.” And then he looked at me all funny he was like “Oh..” I was like “…Okay whatever.” And he said if you ever write it up as a book I’ll write the foreword to the book. So he wrote the foreword to the book.

Seth Davis: [00:25:18] That’s amazing.

H Gelfand: [00:25:20] So since this woman from my class got hired as one of his staffers every time he came to Tucson she would email me and say McCain’s gonna be here/there whatever. So I have all this shit with his signature on it. I have books, T-shirts, pictures, all the stuff. So sometimes he was just going to like an Elks Lodge. Sometimes he was going to like speak to some class. Sometimes he was just going to a bookstore or whatever and I would always go. And every time that he saw me. I don’t think he had any idea what my name was. But he would go like this, he would go “You’re the Naval Academy guy I know you!” And I’m like “Yeah!” And he would say, he would always ask the same thing he would say “Tell me a story that didn’t end up in the book.”

Seth Davis: [00:26:00] Really.

H Gelfand: [00:26:01] And then I would just tell him some random story. And so the last time I saw him, which was the last conversation I ever had with him he said “Tell me a story that I don’t know– what was not in the book.”

[00:26:10] And I said well I said your roommate was Chuck Larson and Larson was the admiral who was running the Naval Academy and I said I wrote a letter to Admiral Larson asking if I could come do all this research at the Naval Academy, and in the letter I asked to go through something called the pleeb summer which is like the initial training that all the kids there go through. And I thought it would be as an outsider a really quick and easy way for me to learn everything because it’s simultaneously like a total military indoctrination, a total Naval Academy education, like the whole overview fo the history. And everyday you run like eight miles and you do like eight million push ups and sit ups. And I’m, you know, in relatively good shape and this was also like 20 years ago so I was in much better shape then. And I didn’t hear anything back for like a month. And finally the department head at the University of Arizona she said “Did you ever hear back?” And I said no and she called out there and the next day I got this letter from Admiral Larson telling me you can come and so Larson later told me that the delay was that he thought that the letter was a joke because he couldn’t believe somebody was volunteering to go through the pleeb summer. So he was sharing this letter with all these people as if it was a joke and finally somebody said you know this actually might be serious. And then my boss called and said you know the kid was waiting to find out if you can come out there or not. So I told McCain this whole story. He goes I told you to tell me a story I didn’t know, I already knew that story.” I’m like “You knew that story?” He said “I knew that story the day I met you” and “I’m like you did?” He was like “Because Chuck called me up and said ‘this crazy person from Arizona wants to come here to do research what do I do about this.'” And he read the letter to McCain, and McCain said well he must be serious about it so let him come. So he also inadvertently ended up being in part responsible for my being even able to go there.

Seth Davis: [00:28:02] That’s amazing.

H Gelfand: [00:28:03] Yeah. So you see now I got really emotional when he died because–

Seth Davis: [00:28:08] Yeah.

H Gelfand: [00:28:08] You know even though he’s not somebody I had, exactly, a personal interaction with on a regular basis– nice enough. And then, Seth uh, like a week after he died his wife’s secretary called.

Seth Davis: [00:28:19] Yeah.

H Gelfand: [00:28:21] And says we’re going through all his papers do you want the papers that have your name on the file and I’m like “My name is on it?” So what they sent me this is a copy of the last version of the book before it got published so that he could read the book and then write the foreword from it.

Seth Davis: [00:28:41] No way.

H Gelfand: [00:28:42] So he literally touched all this, but anyway.

Seth Davis: [00:28:45] Oh my gosh.

H Gelfand: [00:28:46] So it was really funny. So I said yes and then one day one of the secretaries in the department goes “Oh my God John McCain sent you something and he’s dead” and I’m like–

Seth Davis: [00:28:57] From beyond the grave.

H Gelfand: [00:28:57] Yes from beyond the grave I got mail from John McCain.

Seth Davis: [00:29:01] He truly was a once in a lifetime person.

H Gelfand: [00:29:03] Yeah. A really really super guy. I didn’t agree with most of his politics but–

Seth Davis: [00:29:06] Yeah.

H Gelfand: [00:29:07] You know, that’s neither here nor there. He was just at the end of it just a very nice person.

Seth Davis: [00:29:12] Yeah. Sounds like it. So it sounds like you really you know look up to John McCain and draw inspiration from him, are there– is there anyone else that you sort of, you know, connect with, draw inspiration from?

H Gelfand: [00:29:25] Sure lots of people. So Seth, uh do you see that broken door behind the door.

Seth Davis: [00:29:29] Yes.

H Gelfand: [00:29:29] So that door came from the house of a guy named Charles Gatewood, have you ever heard Charles Gatewood?

Seth Davis: [00:29:35] I have not.

H Gelfand: [00:29:37] So do you know, uh, the Indian leader who’s named Geronimo.

Seth Davis: [00:29:40] Mm-mm. Oh wait yes I do.

H Gelfand: [00:29:41] Yeah. So Geronimo very famously kept the American army chasing him for a decade in Arizona, New Mexico, and in Mexico. And there was an Army officer who befriended him he was named Charles Gatewood and befriended him to such a degree that he learned the Cheracow Apache language and used to hang out with Geronimo in Geronimo’s camp.

Seth Davis: [00:30:03] Really.

H Gelfand: [00:30:03] And when it was– the sort of pressure was on for Geronimo to surrender, he’s the individual who rode horseback about thirty-five miles found Geronimo in a canyon and convinced Geronimo to surrender. And that guy was from Harrisonburg.

Seth Davis: [00:30:17] No way.

Second Half (28 minutes)

H Gelfand: [00:00:00] And that door is from his house.

Seth Davis: [00:00:03] Wow.

H Gelfand: [00:00:03] So when the guy who owns it was doing some work in the house he called me up and said “I’m going to get rid of this trashy door do you want it and I was like “Of course.” So there it sits. Yeah. So Gatewood, he’s one of the few people– he was from Harrisonburg, he graduated from West Point, and he never killed an Indian person because he was so religious. I’m not terribly religious but his religious sentiment was such that you love people you don’t kill people. So he went to all this extent to learn the language and then his papers are actually kept at the University of Arizona, so when I was out there one summer I read all of the papers. He was out in all these different little towns in Arizona collecting money for donations for the Cheracowa Apache.

Seth Davis: [00:00:50] That’s amazing.

H Gelfand: [00:00:51] Anyway so that’s somebody who inspires me a great deal. 

**omitted**

H Gelfand: [00:03:42] Yeah. And then I guess you know there’s like this whole host of other people

**omitted**

Seth Davis: [00:09:43] Yeah. So as a– as an historian what do you think is the importance of oral history? Do you think it’s– do you think it’s as credible as written history, and do you think that it should be something that should be looked into more?

H Gelfand: [00:10:00] Well for that dissertation I interviewed 350 people, roughly, at the Naval Academy. So yeah I’m very big on oral history especially where we are today when people don’t write letters anymore and paperwork is just simply not generated anymore. Andrew (Andrew is one of H’s former students who sat in for the latter half of the interview) is sitting over there in front of those two blue containers that are filled with all these photocopies of things that I got from the archives at the Naval Academy. But people don’t print that shit up anymore. So, when you look at today’s world where we are in terms of communication oral history becomes very very important because that is mostly the only way you’re ever going to get to know stories.

Seth Davis: [00:10:39] Mm-Hmm.

H Gelfand: [00:10:39] But the other thing that I really like about it is it really brings a human face into archival material. So for example like one of things I was doing– I was intending to, uh,  to interview all of the people who were in the top two positions at the Naval Academy from 1949 when I started until 2000 when I finished. And when you read people’s papers you know you sort of get a sense of them a little bit but mostly not. Then when you sit one on one with them, it all kind of starts coming together and you sort of get a sense from what people tell you, are they bullshitting you or they’re being serious, do they drink Kool-Aid, you know. You really get an idea of who they are. And so that’s like one of the great joys that I have had as a historian is doing oral history projects because it really allows you to talk to people who can fill in answers to the questions that you have. We can tell you the details that are not written down. Just as an example, like, Gloria Steinem was the first woman ever invited to the Naval Academy. Do you know who Gloria Steinem is?

Seth Davis: [00:11:43] I’ve heard the name.

H Gelfand: [00:11:44] She is a very famous feminist who started the most important women’s magazine it’s called Ms Magazine.

Seth Davis: [00:11:51] Okay.

H Gelfand: [00:11:52] And she was very famous. She– for a writing assignment she dressed up as a Playboy bunny for one of Hugh Hefner’s Playboy Clubs and served as a waitress. You asked about my earlier life, my parents used to take me to the Playboy clubs around New York City as a little child. I can remember the whole thing so vividly. As a little kid it was you know not as much a sexual thing it’s just like there’s women dressed up as rabbits like what’s the deal bringing around drinks and bringing me Shirley Temples and it was all very exciting. I can remember that so vividly. So she did that and then wrote a series of articles that exposed the sexual harassment, the rape that went on with this whole system and then subsequently became this very famous feminist leader. So when I found in the paper that she was the first woman to be invited I sent her a letter and I was like “Is there any way that I can interview you?” And she was like “Of course!” And she was like she called me up and it was the most amazing thing. It’s not very often that I get to interview like super famous people. And she’s like she was laughing she said “In a million years I would never have remembered that I even went to the Naval Academy.” And in order to rile everybody up it’s this very very famous moment in the history of the Naval Academy because they got the entire student body together in an auditorium. And when she saw that it was all guys and there was literally not another woman. The first thing she said it was to get everybody riled up. She said quote “There is no job I can think of that requires a penis or a vagina.” And then there’s just this uproar, people booing like “What the fuck!” and all this stuff.

Seth Davis: [00:13:34] Yeah.

H Gelfand: [00:13:35] And all of the guys who were there very very vividly remember it. The admiral who was the head of the school at the time very vividly remembered the whole thing. And then I interviewed her and she dumps forward all of this information which none of them share with me about the experience and I’m like “Fuck.” And it was great we were on the phone for like two hours. The next day she calls me back again because the conversation just kind of like evoked all these other memories about that day. So I would know none of that without having had done that oral history. And on the other side I got, I think I calculated it was about a 14 percent reply rate to the letters that I sent requesting interviews.

Seth Davis: [00:14:15] Wow.

H Gelfand: [00:14:15] And then as soon as that book got published I– somewhere in the drawer here I have the hate mail file. All these people are like “You’ve got this story wrong!” “Why the fuck did you say this when it was that!” And they were all people that I’d asked for interviews. So I handled them all letters back and I said “I’m sorry that you don’t feel that this is how it happened.” I said, that’s part of what’s in those blue folders I kept carbon copies of everything I sent out, I said “On like April 24th of 1999 I sent you a letter asking for an interview you never replied. So therefore I cannot know this.” So that just sort of underscores how important it is to we get people– now they may or may not be telling you the truth but at least you’re gonna get some ideas.

Seth Davis: [00:14:59] Exactly .

H Gelfand: [00:14:59] Like the very first guy who I interviewed was the the dean of students when women came and he was fairly old at the time he lived in some suburb of D.C. and I drove out to his house and he was very lovely. We sat down on his back porch. He made a sweet tea. And he looked at me and he said “I’ve read everything you sent me and this is what I don’t understand.” And I said OK. With a smile on his face he says “You’re making women out to seem like some big deal. We were told they were coming. We made it work. So why do we have any questions?” And I know damn well women were raped, sexually harassed, the whole nine yards and he’s acting like none of it happened. And I’m like “You really don’t think any of those things happened?” He’s like “If any of that had happened I would have known about it!”

Seth Davis: [00:15:46] All right.

H Gelfand: [00:15:48] So yes I do think oral history is incredibly important but– on its ow, may not help you that much when it’s backed up with archival material, the newspapers then it’s very very useful. Very useful.

Seth Davis: [00:16:01] Only two more questions left. The next one is, as a professor what is one thing that you hope all of your students take away from your class?

H Gelfand: [00:16:11] Now the one thing that they’re not going to take away is any information because they’re all going to brain dump the information. So basically I think at this stage of my teaching career– however many years, the first class I taught was in 2000 so or 18 years in– is to try to encourage people to read and to think for themselves. Those are the two most important things that really I can do. Because most people are not going remember– Andrew took like seven classes with me, Andrew doesn’t remember a single fucking thing that he learned in my classes. I can guarantee you. But, people need to be reminded all the time to keep reading and keep learning. The knowledge base continues to expand exponentially every hour. And in order to keep on top of things you need to keep reading all this stuff. And this is what I would say. This is what is the most helpful thing that I can try to do to encourage people. But I think also, you know, then– as you have probably gathered there are some students with whom I develop personal interactions because they’re just awesome people. And with those people I would say I’m trying to encourage them to live good lives. You know, do interesting things. This is the only thing about my life which has been really awesome, is that most of the time– not all of them but most of the time– when given unusual opportunities I’ve just gone with the flow and just done them. And as a result I’ve ended up meeting a whole bunch of interesting people, interacting with others, having strange and interesting interactions. Because, you know what, when you put yourself out there things happen and that’s an important life lesson it’s the only thing that has really been interesting about my life. When I look back, like if I were to die today and look back at all the things that were interesting, they’ve all been about the moments where I was just like fuck it and just go balls out and do whatever. Because–.

Seth Davis: [00:17:59] Yeah.

H Gelfand: [00:18:00] If you’re given an opportunity and you don’t take it what might happen you know and all sorts of things happen. You meet people who you know have these things take place it’s very interesting. That was not a very good answer.

Seth Davis: [00:18:13] That was a very good answer.

H Gelfand: [00:18:15] I don’t know.

Seth Davis: [00:18:15] Alright so my last question is: What do you want people to take away from your story? What do you want the listeners to hear and get from your story?

H Gelfand: [00:18:22] From my story?

Seth Davis: [00:18:23] Yes.

H Gelfand: [00:18:26] Just keep exploring. Because you never know what you’re going to learn about yourself. And keep talking to people who knew you when you were young and knew you along the way. Because, in the process of the whole thing about finding out about my adoption, I found out, just by asking all the people that were aware of it, things and pieced together a lot more than I knew because everybody had a little tiny pieces. But just keep talking to people because– this is one of the things that I find interesting like this is an example. A few years ago I started talking to people randomly on the subway in New York. Now I do it all the fucking time. And then what you find out is that you have all these unusual things in common with people that you would never know if you didn’t just simply sit and talk to people. And then you end up with people that you interact with later on. This is how– half the people I’m friends with on Twitter or Instagram how I know them. Like I– Seth I’ll give you an example. One last story. OK so I don’t even think I told Andrew this story but so in August I was giving this conference paper at a place called Santa Clara University out in California. And I was gonna be there for enough days that I was going to have to have some kind of transportation. Normally one– if you’re in a big city you just used public transit, if you’re not going to be in a big city you’ve got a car or whatever. You provide a budget to JMU, JMU pays for all of it whatever. So San Jose doesn’t really have very good public transit. And I knew that, because the conference is gonna go late in the day and there’s no real restaurant scene around the campus or I was staying, I was gonna wanna get somehow to the downtown of San Jose to eat at restaurants. So I proposed getting a bike. So JMU finally agreed to let me get a bike. I rented a bike. And it was fucking awesome. And so one of the things that I was just sort of like doing was, everyday as soon as the conference was over I got on the bike– well, I went and changed I got rid of the tie– and then I plotted from (gets up and points at a map of San Jose) basically from Santa Clara to the downtown of San Jose which was about six miles. Plotted a different route each day. The destination was the same restaurant because this restaurant, I was obsessed with, a taco restaurant. It was just so fucking good. And then every night afterward I just went and tooled around in San Jose and just explored. So the last night that I was there it was a Saturday night. I get done with dinner I’m all excited about life. Well, San Jose State University is this huge ca– college campus in the downtown of San Jose. And I’ve taught about it. I’ve read about it. There’s a lot of significant and important people went to school there. For example Gaylord Nelson, the founder of Earth Day, went to school there. A lot of interesting people. So I go over there and I’m just kind of like astounded because the place is stunningly beautiful. So I’m just like on the bike and I’m just like taking it all in. And somebody taps me on the shoulder, and it’s a group of Punjabi kids, and they want to know if I’ll play cricket with them. And I’d like and they’ve got the whole paddle and everything and I’m like “I would be happy to watch you play. But I do not know anything about it” but. Anyway they come watch us. And they barely speak English. They were just students there and they were awesome. And we had this really great time and I was like very stoked about life. So I hang out with them for a little while and then I notice that it’s going to be coming to about the time of the sunset and the bay area is surrounded by mountains and I’m thinking to myself it would be beautiful. So I’m trying to figure out how can I get up high so I can see above the buildings. So I see this parking garage so I hike up with the bike to the top of this parking garage and just watch the sun go down, it’s glowing on all the mountains and I’m like– so beautiful, this place. And I’m hearing this noise that sounds like construction noise and I’m like why would there be construction on Saturday. Well it turns out it’s not construction noise. It turns out it’s this group of about 80 kids half students half alumni from San Jose State who are in this organization preparing for this Ganesh festival. This is in August. The Ganesh festival is in September. So they all have these enormous drums that are made out of steel, like basically like drums. Sort of like Jamaican which is much bigger and they have all of these animal hides that are all covered with Sanskrit and they’re all just like pounding. I’ve never heard anything like this in unison that’s what the noises that I thought was construction was.

Seth Davis: [00:23:01] Wow.

H Gelfand: [00:23:01] So half of them are drumming. The other half are doing this dance which is unlike anything else and I’m just standing there going “What the fuck am I looking at here.” It was like mesmer- it was so loud, because it was in between buildings, that it was making my heart skip. And it was just like I was in a trance and they stopped to take a break. And these kids came over to me and they’re like “We don’t ever have an audience who are you?” and I’m like “I’m just a guy from the East Coast and I’m here” and they’re like “And you came here?” and I’m like “Yeah” and they’re like “What the fuck.” I’m like “I know.” And I’m like “What are you doing?” and they explained the whole thing to me and it’s the only group of musicians that performs this particular thing in North America.

Seth Davis: [00:23:41] Wow.

H Gelfand: [00:23:42] And because they’re the only one and it’s in the middle of Silicon Valley– so it’s all these people from India– they are live broadcast back to India. And I’m like what the fuck is so crazy. So they get done. I go on my way. I go a few buildings over and I come upon this statue and I’m like– I’m just mesmerized you know the famous Black power salute at the 1968 Mexico City Olympics.

Seth Davis: [00:24:07] Yeah.

H Gelfand: [00:24:07] The two dudes who are black were students San Jose State at the time so the center of the campus is this like three-times-larger-than-life statue of them. And it’s amazing. This is so fucking cool. And I’m like standing there and I’m just like taking it in and some dude taps me on the shoulder and I turn around and is this African-American guy. And he goes “Can I ask who you are and what you’re doing?” I’m like Yeah. And I told him. And he’s like “So let me get this straight. You came all the way here. You’ve got a bike. And now you’re just tooling around on our campus?” and I’m like “Yeah.” And I’m like “Who are you?” and he goes “Oh I’m actually kind of doing the same thing you’re doing.” And I’m like “What!” And he goes “Yeah!” And I’m like “What’s your deal?” And he goes “Well I grew up in Tucson.” and I’m like– (makes surprised expression) which is my adopted hometown– and I’m like “What?” And he goes “Yeah I have a computer science degree from the University of Arizona and I work for Intel and I work,” and he points to this building he goes “I work in that building and I look out at this campus every day. And tonight was the night to come after work and kind of tool around on the campus.” So we get into this huge conversation. He has an Instagram account that’s called everyday encounters which is all about exactly what I’m talking about, which is just randomly talking to people. So we sit down on the lawn in front of this big statue of the Black Power statue and he’s doing exactly what you’re doing. Interviews me puts me on Instagram.

Seth Davis: [00:25:30] Really.

H Gelfand: [00:25:30] And then we go on our way. And I’m just like, I’m on the bike and it’s now pretty late at night and it’s Saturday night and I’m just like, this has been one of the strangest evenings of my life. And I’m just trying to like take the whole thing. And so I’m on a side street and I’m about ready to get onto the main street through the downtown of San Jose which is a big city and then ride that back to the campus. So I’m at this traffic light and all of a sudden, this mass of probably two to three hundred people on scooters, skateboards, rollerblades, bikes, all come by. Everybody is wearing like you know those like necklaces that are like neon color. And some people are pushing baby strollers and there’s music blaring and I’m like “What the fuck!” So I have no idea what this is the light changes I pedal as fast as possible I catch up to the end of this mass of people. And I’m like riding alongside of these two women that are in a tandem bike and I’m like “What is thi?” And they’re like “We don’t know we’re just from Germany and we just saw these people riding so we joined them.” I’m like “What the fuck.” So I go further up and this guy says “Oh this is called San Jose Skate Night.” And I’m like “What the fuck is San Jose Skate Night?” And the guy goes “Every Saturday, just, we’re given a– on, there’s a Facebook page you can look it up it’s just called San Jose Skate Night– and the guy who runs it says “Meet at this intersection.” And hundreds of people show up who do not know each other. Some of them are high. Some are not high. Some have babies. Some of them are kids. Some are in costume. Some are like professional cyclists. And just as a communal activity they ride three or four miles together through the downtown of San Jose. It’s always a different route. Never the same people. So I just rode around with them. And everybody was like “Who are you?” I’m just like look at all these people. I got back to the dorm room that night and it was just like, what in the name of God. If I had not gotten this bicycle this entire evening would not have happened. And here just I interacted with people from all over the world in fucking San Jose. It was one of the most memorable nights of my entire life. That’s what I’m talking about when I say be open to when random things happen. Just go with it because you never know what is going to happen.

Seth Davis: [00:27:47] Yeah.

H Gelfand: [00:27:47] Now I’ll probably never see or talk to any of those people ever again.

Seth Davis: [00:27:50] But at least you have the experience

H Gelfand: [00:27:51] But it was a moment.

Seth Davis: [00:27:51] Yeah.

H Gelfand: [00:27:52] You know a moment of interaction with fellow humans.

Seth Davis: [00:27:56] That’s amazing. Thank you very much for sure.

H Gelfand: [00:27:57] You’re very welcome Seth. It has been a pleasure interviewing you.

H Gelfand: [00:28:00] And you.

Seth Davis: [00:28:01] Thank you very much.

Interview of Paola Iturbide

The following interview is between myself and Paola Iturbide, who came to Harrisonburg, Virginia from Guadalajara, Mexico. During our interview we discussed her reasoning for coming to the United States, how her experiences have been while here, and what her plans are when she returns to Mexico. I chose to interview Paola, because she is a younger perspective on immigration in the modern world.

INTERVIEW –

Colby Mocarski: [00:00:00] Hi my name is Colby Mocarski. I am a senior at James Madison University and today I will be interviewing Paola Iturbide. And so my first question is can you tell me your age and something about you?

Paola Iturbide: [00:00:16] I’m 25 years old. I was born in San Diego, California. But I moved to Mexico where my parents lived since I was a baby. My parents used to live in Mexico City. They met there. Then they moved to Tijuana. And they decided to just have me in the United States so I can have more opportunities like in the future. And so I do. I was just born there. But live in Mexico all my life and now I live in the States.

Colby Mocarski: [00:00:50] OK so can you tell me some about your childhood or your education?

Paola Iturbide: [00:00:56] My childhood I grew up in Guadalajara, Mexico. I was in a Catholic school all girls school and my friends were middle high class so they had money to give me the location that I needed and I learned English in school.

Colby Mocarski: [00:01:16] So you said that you went to a Catholic school so that was that your religion growing up?

Paola Iturbide: [00:01:22] Yeah. Because a lot of people in Mexico are Catholic. That’s like the main religion. So I grew up Catholic and I’m Catholic and I was raised in a Catholic school.

Colby Mocarski: [00:01:36] So what made you want to come to the United States?

Paola Iturbide: [00:01:41] The first thing is like there’s no jobs in Mexico because I mean I study a career. But I saw a lot of options but they don’t pay you well. You have to have a connection or know someone in the government to have a well-paid job. And also I did and say I did and I study a lot. Also I had to study more to be someone I think I was a little lazy in school. So that also was the problem. If you put a lot of effort in school you can be successful in Mexico. What a lot of people are lazy and that’s why they come to the United States because they think it’s gonna be easier. But I think you have to work at the same level that you will do it in Mexico or in the States.

Colby Mocarski: [00:02:44] What made you choose Harrisonburg when you came to the United States?

Paola Iturbide: [00:02:47] Because my sister and is in Bridgewater and I came with her and it was easier for me because she knew people because coming to United States not knowing anyone it’s difficult it’s difficult living here it’s difficult.

Colby Mocarski: [00:03:02] What what was your first initial reaction of Harrisonburg? Did you like it right away? Did you feel like you fit into the community right away?

Paola Iturbide: [00:03:20] I think it’s warm because I came from a big city so I prefer big cities. I fall in love withD.C. This is like not for me because it’s like living in a ranch but it’s really pretty. Just like for coming on a vacation I mean and people here are nice. I think there’s a little bit of racism racism. I think there is but I mean it’s it’s ok living here. I’m just not like a country girl.

Colby Mocarski: [00:03:53] So how was it finding a job in Harrisonburg?

Paola Iturbide: [00:03:58] It was so easy. That’s the thing of the United States. It’s really easy finding any job well me because I have papers but I don’t know the people that are immigrants. I work for a week in a restaurant in a Mexican restaurant. The name is El Charo they get it. They they just have immigrants and they treat them like slaves. They made them work all day and they paid them nothing. Just the tips from people and I think people that come here as an immigrant it’s not worth it because they are treated like slaves. You have to have papers to be OK here or on have a decent job. If you don’t have papers is horrible. You are surviving, just surviving and maybe you are living a little better. We maybe in Mexico didn’t have a TV and you have a TV here with you. You have to pay it every month and you work here in the States. People that don’t have papers they work like slaves. They live better but they are their slaves.

Colby Mocarski: [00:05:04] So I know you came here also trying to get a certification to be a translator. Is that something that was offered in Mexico too?

Paola Iturbide: [00:05:16] No I just like look in here and I saw that they have the certification. I just did it.

Colby Mocarski: [00:05:25] So what is like your long term goals? Like what jobs do you want? Do You see you staying here, or going back to Mexico full time?

Paola Iturbide: [00:05:35] I mean if I pass the exam to be a translator. My plan my initial plan was to move here and find a better job, because having a job in Five Guys that mean you earn a lot but if you save it and you go back to Mexico. But here things are so expensive that if you want to leave here you have to have a better job than Five Guys cook. You know what my goal to have my certificate and to work in a hospital and get paid minimum 30 dollars per hour so you can be fine you know because if you have like a job you are not going to leave fine. You’re going to just survive. So while not my plan was coming here study that if I pass it I was going to leave close to D.C. because I fell in love with D.C. But now my ex-boyfriend is talking to me again. We’re going to meet each other and if any if what he proposed I’m going back to Mexico because he has a lot of money so I’m gonna have to worry you know. But if he doesn’t propose in New York I won’t. I’m going to come back and work as a translator in the hospital because in here I will have a decent life. And in Mexico I will be a slave just to survive. Like working in an office eight hours to get paid. I don’t know. Two hundred dollars per month. So it’s nothing. Per day I will get paid like 30 bucks.

Colby Mocarski: [00:07:17] So you said you worked at Five Guys did you ever feel like not being an American has affected you in your workplace?

Paola Iturbide: [00:07:27] No I don’t think so because there’s Mexicans there in five days. I mean Spanish speaking people. There are a lot of Spanish speaking people here.

Colby Mocarski: [00:07:39] So do you think that there are Americans that work in five guys that treat you differently because you are aren’t American?

Paola Iturbide: [00:07:48] No.

Colby Mocarski: [00:07:51] So how is Harrisonburg changed since you moved here. Have you seen any big differences or anything?

[00:08:01] Yeah I mean just because I had a car in Mexico and I have lived with my parents I was fine but what I saw the poor people that live in Mexico is a huge difference here because I’m going to put an example. The bosses here have air conditioner and in Mexico people have to wait in lines to get on the bus and they go squish. They have to walk thousands of miles to get to their jobs. And here is more access to all or it’s more accessible to have a car than in Mexico is impossible because of they because of what they get paid in there. In any job because jobs there if you don’t have a connection or if you know someone if you come from a wealthy family you screwed your whole life! Or you are very smart to become a successful doctor or you know in here you’re not that smart you can work two jobs and you are going to survive and live decently we have to be really smart to stay or to, to do it in Mexico.

Colby Mocarski: [00:09:20] So do you feel like there is a community within a community of immigrants in Harrisonburg because for example JMU has over 200 different countries represented within our campus. So do you think there’s a community within a community of immigrant students or people?

Paola Iturbide: [00:09:45] Yeah. There’s a lot of immigrants here because they told me Harrisonburg is the city that you don’t get deported at deported. I don’t know why. So they call their safe place so that’s why immigrants come here because if you don’t have papers you don’t get deported. That’s why there is a huge community of immigrants.

Colby Mocarski: [00:10:07] So do you feel like that you see a lot of other people reaching out like within that smaller community? Like do you feel like there’s a stronger bond between those people?

Paola Iturbide: [00:10:22] People that I have met makes you can with Mexicans, Chinese we Chinese like they don’t get makes a lot I think because of their racisim, and because of the language maybe they find it difficult.

Colby Mocarski: [00:10:39] So what made you end up working for five guys? Like what made you decide to work there?

Paola Iturbide: [00:10:44] Because it was close to my house and I don’t have a car it is a bad job. But I mean I will love to work in other place but it’s like you so hard to move here because their transportation is horrible.

Colby Mocarski: [00:11:02] So do you see yourself like staying with Five Guys? Are you going and try and look for a new job? Or try to start your career as a translator?

Paola Iturbide: [00:11:15] Yes. I just need the translated stuff I’m just doing my exam if I pass it I think I’m not leaving here because he’s boring. But I’m going to maybe move to Charlottesville, if my ex don’t propose.

Colby Mocarski: [00:11:31] So what Changes would you like to see in Harrisoburg in the nation in general as far as looking at immigrants?

Paola Iturbide: [00:11:45] Transportation people that don’t have cars so difficult. You don’t have transportation you don’t have transportation and Saturday and Sunday. It’s horrible.

Colby Mocarski: [00:11:56] But what about like how our nation views immigrants?

Paola Iturbide: [00:12:02] I think it’s really hard for people that immigrants. So I think they don’t have a decent job. If you are an immigrant you’re screwed. You’re going to leave this in but you’re not gonna live, you’re gonna be a slave. So people here treat immigrants that they don’t have papers as slaves they are slaves.

Colby Mocarski: [00:12:33] As a whole like especially under President Trump he’s been like extremely strict with immigration policies. So like how do you feel about our nation. Like right now he’s shown to appeal the 14th Amendment that says that if you are born in the United States you are a citizen even if your parents are not. So you shine to get that reversed. So like how do you feel about the way that our country is moving towards like a no immigrant population?

Paola Iturbide: [00:13:07] I think is fine if you like if their parents are not from here. I think it’s OK. What they are doing. I don’t know why people come here. They should fight in their own countries to be better and other countries should like fight so that their people have better jobs and not leave their countries. So I think America is doing the right thing not having immigrants here.

Colby Mocarski: [00:13:48] So you said that your family still lives in Mexico so what do your parents do to be successful and have a life in Mexico if finding jobs are very difficult?

Paola Iturbide: [00:14:01] Like I said I was not a very studious person. I didn’t study a lot. I’m kind of I like to study both my parents my parents my parents. My dad he’s he’s really smart so he become a lawyer so like I said if you are smart and you study you can be successful anywhere. But most of the time people are lazy. That’s why they are not successful.

Colby Mocarski: [00:14:30] So what jobs do your parents have in Mexico?

Paola Iturbide: [00:14:33] My father is a lawyer and he runs a call center he’s them. Like their manager of all Mexico. Like all the, the country because they have different call centers in different parts of the of their country.

Colby Mocarski: [00:15:01] And what does your mom do?

Paola Iturbide: [00:15:02] My mom right now she doesn’t work.

Colby Mocarski: [00:15:05] So what do you think about the overall view on immigration? Like what do you think about the American perspective of immigration.

Paola Iturbide: [00:15:34] What Americans think of immigration. I think that right now they’re really racist about immigration and I think they should stop immigration and not let people in. If they are were not born in the United States and or if they are born here and their parents are not from here they should not give them the papers because governments on other countries should fight for better education and everything like that.

Colby Mocarski: [00:16:11] So yeah it’s just America was built on immigration because everybody that’s ever really been here immigrated from overseas from Mexico somewhere. So it’s just like how is how are the times so different now where immigration is viewed as a negative thing and we’re trying to cut it off completely versus we were built on immigration. So like why do you think it’s like completely changed?

Paola Iturbide: [00:16:44] Because back in the days there was they were everything was building it was building like everything was not done yet. So all like Mexico was built because European people move to that country. So now that is overpopulated like they should stop immigration because everything’s done right now like people like countries have their own people so they should stop immigration.

Colby Mocarski: [00:17:17] So what do you think you will take for Mexico to, I guess become more like the United States where it has more job opportunities and higher wages and things like that?

Paola Iturbide: [00:17:30] When they when the government stops robbing has a robbing, because people are really really corrupt. That’s the problem that in other countries government is so corrupt and they steal thousands and thousands of dollars they don’t have the values like Americans have. They have honesty values here and Mexicans, they don’t have that because the government steals. The steals their taxes monies taxes money. So that’s why it’s like a circle, like it repeats repeats repeats the same stuff because if they don’t stop from the government, stealing the government give give them more opportunities. People will stop stealing to have a better life. So the government should start not stealing and have their values like America has more Americans have more of honesty. They are more honest. There is not a lot of crimes like in Mexico because of that because it starts from the government that the government steal. They don’t rob. They don’t commit crimes. So is everything. Start start start from the top like from the government.

Colby Mocarski: [00:19:10] So, with not a lot of job opportunities before you moved to the United States even if it was just for a short period of time. What job did you have in Mexico?

Paola Iturbide: [00:19:22] I was just like Secretary.

Colby Mocarski: [00:19:26] What. What did that involve?

Paola Iturbide: [00:19:30] What do you mean?

Colby Mocarski: [00:19:31] Like what were your tasks to do every day?

Paola Iturbide: [00:19:35] Just type things on the computer. Answer the phone. It was awful.

Colby Mocarski: [00:19:42] So how does that compare to like the salary you made in that job. How does that compare to the salary that you’re making in your current job?

Paola Iturbide: [00:19:51] Yeah it’s way like this is a bad job also. Also that’s the difference. Like I had a bad job over there and they pay me like thirty dollars per day. So that’s, no not thirty dollars like twenty dollars per day. And that was an eight hour shift in here a bad job. You get paid per day seventy dollars so that’s a huge amount of difference. That’s the difference. Working in Mexico than working here and in Mexico you work one day and you you can like if you work in that bad job for the whole month you can just buy groceries and that’s it. You don’t like you. You don’t have money to pay rent and to do other stuff in here. If you work a bad job you can’t pay rent. You can have food and you can live decent. That’s the difference between Mexico and the United States that you can live more decently having bad jobs.

Colby Mocarski: [00:20:55] In the span of comparing these two jobs. There is a difference on how far a dollar goes so even though you getting paid less in your other job your money probably went for the men in the United States because things are more expensive here right?

Paola Iturbide: [00:21:13] Yeah. But you can like, but it depends where you go if you to the dollar family store. It’s really cheap. Well it depends on what you do.

Colby Mocarski: [00:21:25] Yeah because the big thing in America right now is buying organic and buying one freshly grown products and going to farmer’s markets which can all be really expensive. So do you see a culture of like Americans spending more. Just because we have more?

Paola Iturbide: [00:21:43] Yeah. I mean here I can see like this consumerism, comsume. How do you say the word? Like you consume a lot like you just want to consume a lot of stuff. It’s a lot of competition. And because these are first world, first world country like they have everything and more so if you were to a store you just want to buy like everything because you can’t like you see everything it’s like you can buy with your credit card. You’re gonna pay it in, I don’t know six months. So it’s consumerism, you you people are buying and buying and stuff that they don’t need.

Colby Mocarski: [00:22:37] Right. So how are things like talking about stores and groceries and that thing like how are they different in the United States than in Mexico? Like do you see a huge difference, are things helps here in one place or another?

Paola Iturbide: [00:22:54] No it’s just like here. I see also the fruit and everything is really I don’t know the word, it is they made their fruit not natural because they don’t know the orange. It doesn’t have seeds. So I think food here is really processed, and in Mexico. No because of their consumerism. So a lot of competition. So people here the food is not healthy like natural like in Mexico and it’s expensive here also.

Colby Mocarski: [00:23:42] So did when you were coming to the United States did you also see it was harder or easier to find somewhere to live to find friends too?

Paola Iturbide: [00:23:54] Oh yeah. It’s really hard here to find like friends and it’s on where to leave also because they ask you for so many stuff like cosigner any of you don’t know anyone is really difficult. And I think people here live more by, they do everything they own and they find people on apps because they are so involved in just their job and just in themselves that they are not like involved in different stuff like in Mexico because here is expense here I’d like to go to our country club and people don’t do that here because it’s expensive just for rich people. The difference in Mexico is like to go to a country club it’s cheap so it’s more like people hang out more. You don’t have to meet someone like community. Yeah because this is cheaper. Like being middle class can go to our country club in here, middle class they cannot do that, people get more and more together. They have more time to do things with their friends. And here everything needs money and work work work work.

Colby Mocarski: [00:25:26] So what would you like when the public is listening to this interview like what is one main thing you want them to take away from your story?

Paola Iturbide: [00:25:38] To think about twice if you don’t have papers to come here you are going to have a better life. You are going to live decent but if you don’t have papers you are going to live like slaves. You are going to work. I work in a restaurant that they hire immigrants and they work from 8:00 in the morning to 10:00 at night and you are going to have a car you’re going to have more things that you’re going to have in Mexico where you are going to work a lot because here things are expensive here, than down in Mexico makes it you can leave poor but you are going to be free. So think twice. Call me here if you don’t have papers. You are not going to be happy. You marry an American or something like that.

Colby Mocarski: [00:26:29] So are also be students listening to the interview. So what do you think they can learn from your story? Like about your immigration experiences your work experiences your living experiences like what’s one main thing you want people and students to learn from your experiences? People are learning about immigration. So as an immigrant like what do you want them to learn from your experience?

Paola Iturbide: [00:27:04] Like I was. I’m not like kind of an immigrant because I have papers but my my friend that I meet here she was she was an immigrant and she didn’t have papers and she lived like hiding because she had to drive with no license. And she always had to be like hiding from the police. She had to work in a Mexican restaurant that they don’t ask for a social security number and anything. And she worked like a slave. So she couldn’t like anything because she didn’t know they, she she couldn’t go out of the country because her their papers were in process to be American citizen. So if you don’t have papers like is no worth it come in here is worth it. Like coming here for a while and then come back just like save money and then come back because here things are really expensive. So if you work like that as an immigrant you are going to earn money but you are going to spend, spend that all and leave just live by the day. The thing to believe you are an immigrant and don’t have papers work a lot and then go back to Mexico or that place that you are and do something there with that money that you earn here because living here is like you’re going to be living good but you are never going to be free.

Colby Mocarski: [00:28:28] Well thank you for this interview. It’s great talking to you and learning about your personal experiences!

Paola Iturbide: [00:28:34] Thank you! Bye!

 

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Honduras to Albemarle: Sofhia

Sofhia Pineda is a 17 year old high school student in Albemarle County, Va who immigrated with her family three years ago from San Pedro Sula, Honduras. This interview outlines her journey in transitioning lives from Honduras to the United States, as well as the climate which brought her family here. Also, she highlights the differences in education from the two countries. This interview helps give perspective on the experiences of people who immigrate while still being in school.

[00:03] my name is Zach Sims and it is October 14th. It’s about 12 in the afternoon and I am here with Sopfia. I’m go ahead and introduce yourself.
[00:14] Hi, I’m Sopfia Pineda.
[00:19] Yeah. So, uh, just general information, like how old are you? Where you live, what school do you go to?
[00:23] Okay, so I’m 17 years old. I go to Albemarle high school. I live in Charlottesville, Virginia.
[00:32] Yeah. Good. No, no, no pressure. This is just, we’re just talking. I can go back and edit if we need to. I can cut stuff out. Don’t worry about it. Alright. So, um, you are a Latino immigrant officially to the United States. So where are you initially from?
[00:50] So I am from some San Pedro Sula around.
[00:53] Ooh, I like that. That’s the way that he said that. Sorry.
[00:57] Um, yeah. Uh, I grew up in a very, what while San Pedro Sula is the most, it is industrial city and Honduras, I grew up there,
[01:17] so. Okay, so let’s talk about Honduras as a whole right now. So, what’s kind of like the situation going on in Honduras? Is it kind of like unrest or people like for the most part kind of alright or like what’s going on in Honduras right now? Because I’m not exactly familiar with that situation there.
[01:38] I’m so right now. Honduras is a very dangerous in some way. We have a lot of problems with gangs and robbery and especially where I lived we had, we were basically surrounded by the areas that were the most like that were attacked more frequently. Yeah. And, and yeah, it was. Well I grew up in a very, like I, I grew up segregated from the world basically. So, I like my childhood basically. I didn’t went out or like I didn’t hang out with friends a lot or I couldn’t go out and just like enjoy my childhood. So, I basically spend my whole time in it for, in like a bedroom with full of toys. And that was it. That was my childhood.
[02:35] Yeah, I know. I’m just. Because I know you, um, your parents are fairly strict. Would you say that was kind of common for people in your area or was really just because your parents were trying to protect you from, from stuff going on?
[02:47] So I guess more generally I feel like Hispanic parents especially, they’re very strict, but my parents kind of just like inherited that cultural thing. Oh, Hispanic community I guess. And um, well my, my whole life I grew up in a school that was Christian and we spoke English. We had every single class in English and we just had like one class in Spanish. Wow. Yeah. Um, so it was, it was basically from my house to school and from my school to my house. So like back and forth, nothing between.

[03:23] Was it a Catholic school?

[03:30] It was not, it was an angelic school, like it’s very similar to a baptist. Yeah. So we had and we had like a church and also in school.
[03:41] Interesting. So how big was the, uh, the town or city that you grew up in?
[03:46] Um, since it was the industrial city ah, in Hondurash, I guess it was very well populated almost. It was very big. Well, it is very big. Yeah.
[04:00] So you’re saying industrial, so there were a lot of factories and stuff around the people worked in to most people work in the factories, um, and kind of like I have some job connected to those companies. I’m kind of like how here in Charlottesville, like so many people work for Uva and like everybody seems like they do something with Uva. Um, was it kind of a similar deal there?
[04:20] Um, I guess where you live, it depends where you stand. It’s like socially I guess. Um, my, well, my family, none of us, we didn’t like grew up in like that kind of environment I guess, but I knew a lot of people that have worked in factories and yeah, it was, even though it was not the capital offender is a list like the second most populated city.
[04:55] Um, more things about Honduras, uh, what are some of the things that, um, you think are distinct? Honduras um kind of in comparison to the other parts of Central America. Um, so like whether it’s like a specific food or a specific tradition that you guys did, like is there something that you would say is specifically very like? Oh yeah, that’s obviously from Honduras.
[05:20] So what I think most people say about Honduras is like, Oh, do you want to know the most dangerous place in the world? Especially where I live and uh, yeah, I mean we are very similar to other countries in Central America. We basically have the same traditions. I guess we have our own food, we produce our own food and we have a do you want me to be specific? Okay. Um, we had food that is very popular, that’s called Ballatas a has beans, cheese, eggs.
[06:05] Then that’s like fried or is it just like a plate of food that you kinda like make up together?
[06:09] So it’s Kinda like a flour tortilla. Yeah, I guess. And you put the beans in there, you can even put chicken if you want to Yeah, it’s very good.
[06:21] All right, cool. So let’s start talking about a little bit of immigration working towards going to the United States. So what would you say were some of the main causes of your family deciding to kind of pick up things and leave?
[06:39] So kind of like going back to like,

wait, hold on, sorry. Not just you. How old were you when you guys moved over here?

14.

  1. All right. So this was three years ago?

Three years ago. Yeah. So like free recently we, uh, so like I think the 23rd of October. No, September. Yeah, September just recently. Just recently. And let’s say so like Kinda like going back. My Dad, he was a lawyer for the government and then my mom was like, what? So um, he handled money for the government and then my mom for eight years, she was like, I guess you will call it a call her, like the superintendent here from like a district in Honduras. So after that and my mom, she was a principal at school at a, like a high school in Honduras, like on the afternoons and then in the morning she was like a regular Spanish teacher. So she had like two jobs and then my dad, he was still working in the same place. And then, uh, we have a very, we have an issue in Honduras, but like politically, uh, so if you’re from one party than if that party wins in the elections than like they take control of everything, you know. So where my dad used to work, he would he say a democratic liberal.
[08:11] Yeah. So what are the names of those two parties? Like the Spanish names, what would you call him in Honduras?
[08:16] Do you want me to say in Spanish? But the Liberal Party liberal team basically. And then the other party is like nationalists. Yeah. Okay. So my dad, uh, my family is very, they’re like, we were very like, uh, I guess integrated into politics. My parents had worked for the government. Exactly. So of dealing with stuff. Yeah, exactly. So I think it was the elections of 2013, 2014 around there that the nationalist, I won the election in injuries and uh, like they. So my dad had a job and like I said, right. And then like they tried everything they could to take him out of the job just because he was not from the same party as they. Uh, okay. So, um, so yeah, that happened. So he got fired. He demanded. Yeah. So he, um, so he, um, so he sued the government and he won the demand. So we kind of had a lot of money and like my dad was in the news and everything. Yeah. So like having a lot of money and also going on the news then people are gonna Think, oh family. Yeah, that family has a lot of money so we have to go and like about them or something.
[09:44] Say that you guys like it’s. Yeah, that’s, that’s like an interesting situation. It’s almost like, not quite like political refuge but like you guys were just gone in a sticky situation in Honduras and it really wouldn’t be great for you to guys to stay there because you know, another party who had control and your dad was very involved with politics and you just won this, the suit against the power of the party. That has a lot of control. That’s interesting. So would you say this is kind of like a, a deep in my maybe personal question? Um, uh, would you say that you guys were any in any like physical danger if you guys had stayed or do were, you know, do you think it was much less of something like that and much more just political thing?
[10:27] I think it was like a little bit of both because if you’re very like involved in politics then other people know that you’re involved in those politics so you kind of have to like take your risk and going out there. So once he was fired, we stayed like that for two years. So because he was a lawyer, so he, he like, he did some little stuff he seemed like he could handle, taking small cases for some people but we couldn’t stay like that.
[10:57] Yeah, all the time. So that’s interesting because a lot of times you just think like, I’m like monetary gain or like money. It’s like,
[11:10] oh no, you’re fine. Oh my God. Yeah, just do you need to know.
[11:24] So like normally you think of a like monetary gain being something you need in order to, to flee the situation and get out of the country, like you have to, you have to gather up as much money as possible and that’s kind of what’s holding you back. But with your guys’ situation, like you just won this lawsuit and all of a sudden you have this abundance of money and that existence of the abundance of money kind of pushed you guys out because like, um, it doesn’t look good for a political opponent to have a lot of money, you know, and kind of like. So That’s interesting. Um, all right. So what did the process, this is kind of like the nitty gritty stuff. What did the process of coming to the United States look like? Were you like, I don’t even know. It did take a long time for you guys in Honduras to be able to say like, let’s get on a plane and go. And then like once you got here, what did it look like? Um, so just give me the details of that, like how you felt, you know, kind of the whole way that you felt through the process is also kind of important.
[12:22] So let’s see. I was, so I was a bath so like I was about to get to go to high school basically when we came here. So we have been talking about that back in Honduras for like a year in something because we had a, my family, like Andrea’s has a family, like coming here for a similar situation. So we thought okay so if we go then we’re going to have like family support are there and everything but we stayed like that for a year. Like are we going to go, are we going to stay in something like that because like my mom, she was very attached to her work I guess. So it was like an like a struggle to convince her basically to like come here.
[13:05] I mean it’s a, it’s a big deal. You’re like picking up your entire life and leaving.
[13:10] Exactly. And I was like 14, oh, I already know what I’m going to do with my life or something like that.
[13:18] Yeah. All right. So, um, did you guys like apply for anything or did you just like get passports and go?
[13:26] So we already had, we already had this visa here, so I guess like an advantage for like for my brother and myself to like having this like fluent English school that spoke English. Yeah, exactly. And because we’ve been here like almost every Christmas we came here to visit. Yeah. So like we have family down in Rockville, Maryland. We also have family in New York and Miami, so we kinda like went all over the place during the holidays and we done, we went back to Honduras but this time we were like okay. So if we traveled with the visa thing, we’re going to go there and we’re going to apply for asylum basically. So that’s like the legal stuff that we did and still in process I guess.
[14:14] Okay. So you guys haven’t officially like gotten the paperwork that you need to be live here, but you guys are kind of just waiting for it to go through processing still.
[14:23] So we have like, we have legal, legal status a year. We don’t have exactly like the asylum, that’s the one that Andrew family just got like recently, probably like a couple of months ago. And so, um, I guess we’re still waiting for that. It’s been like three years and they waited like five years. So we are so like we’re hoping that something, some loss change through this because like there, there had been some news that some are going to be some reforms through immigration crap all over the place. Exactly. And so we are hoping something comes out but um, we like we were approved to like being the process of the asylum so we have our social security and that’s the way we can work in like say for taxes and everything. So yeah.
[15:14] So that’s really helpful that you guys came and visited every year for Christmas because you guys already had your visa is and you didn’t have to wait and stuff like that. Obviously you’re still waiting a lot of processing. Um, all right, that’s good. Um, so transitioning to the United States, you said already that you went to a school that spoke English, so you, your English was already good basically. What was life like coming to the United States and living here? Like what did you just tell me about it? How did you feel about it?
[15:44] So I guess in education it was like a lot different. I guess like teachers here have a lot of like, um, they’re very professional so like you have to have a year degree to a able to go and be able to teach and stuff like that. But backing Andrew is like if you know English and you know math, you’re going to be a teacher. So that’s basically it. So my, I remember like my math teacher back in Honduras, she had recently graduated from high school and then because she was really good at math, oh you’re going to be it teacher, that she was really good but it was not like professional I guess or like not teacher material. And so when we came here like teachers are very prepared for the classes and they know what they’re doing and like, so it was pretty great, like educated, like in the education side I guess. But then like making friends, it was so hard. It was really hard.
[16:48] So um. Okay, let’s go into that a little bit. So what was the best way I think that for you, what was the best way for you to make friends? Was it was like clubs or just like being in class with people and making jokes and saying hey, you know, like we have this thing in common, like, you know, whatever, what was Kinda the best way that you went about making it
[17:06] So I feel like more recently add fell more comfortable, like talking to like being, being open and talking to people. But back then, like two years ago, I didn’t talk to anyone, like I have my cousins with me anywhere in high school, so it was like during lunch we, we just hung out together and it was basically just asked, us, like talking to each other. So like the first few years for like kind of hard because like you, I, I didn’t, I just felt like that language barrier was like keeping me from like speaking up and stuff like that. But um, recently I just, it was just different I guess. Yeah. And I think like ever since Puerto Rico, I just felt like mean just go for it.
[17:58] So your senior year you guys take advantage of it

[17:59] Yeah. And like I’m doing everything I’m doing like clubs, cra the other way. And I just recently started a club called Latin acts. There’s one at Uva and one in Charlottesville. So we decided to open one in Albemarle and yeah, I just feel like, well we talk like 50 percent English, 50 percent Spanish and I don’t know, I just feel like being involved in like the school and given like the Latino community, like a voice in school. It’s, yeah, it’s been pretty good. It was very important.
[18:34] Shoot, had a question. Okay. So kind of like broader like stuff. Um, what were some things that like culturally speaking, coming from Honduras to the United States kind of you found is like shocking or like wow, I really like that’s, you know, almost exactly the same way that we do things in Honduras or like, um, so like what are things that like kind of shocked you, things that were like didn’t really surprise you and kind of just something you found interesting about the switch from Honduras?
[19:06] So we have a very different culture, very, very different. Um, especially for my family. We grew up like my brother and I, we grew up in a very religious family. So there were stuff that we couldn’t deal and stuff or we could do. And what I noticed is that, um, like people here in the US, like even though you’re a Christian or you’re not a Christian, you hang out with your friends when you go eat, you, you go eat with them or go catch a movie or something like that. Exactly. And then in Honduras I couldn’t do any of that. Like if I went out it was probably just with my parents or if I went out with her friends, it was basically they had to be there as well. So very strict.
[19:55] Wow. Okay. Um, so what was one thing that you kind of, or were there any things that you really thought like, hey, that’s kind of similar to or you didn’t really notice or you know, kind of something that just seemed the same.
[20:06] the same?
[20:10] because normally you highlight like, wow, it’s so different. Like we do all these things and under earth and you guys do all these things here. But I guess one thing that I thought might be a good question to ask is like if there’s any way that people act and kind of do things that’s the same, you know,
[20:27] whether it’s like even something as simple as like we eat the same time, you know, or like, um, I dunno, the way that we care about sports is the same even though it’s a different sport or something like that. Do you think there’s anything like that or.
[20:43] I’m like,
[20:46] yeah, probably sports we have a soccer and under is I guess it’s Kinda like, well it’s not a big thing in the US. I guess they like liked football better than they do soccer. But I mean they are very um, I guess like very into sports. A lot of people like we have a lot of like a small groups in hunters or like a football or soccer. I don’t know the difference. I mean I didn’t notice a difference but I don’t know which one you need. Okay. Uh, so we have a lot of, like different groups in Honduras and I feel like people are very inclined to follow a, a, like a certain sport. You didn’t hear a lot in Honduras, like someone playing tennis or golf specially golf. And so yeah, I guess like the, I don’t know is, it doesn’t really relate with my life I guess because yeah, my family, we are not very into sports as well. Not Me

[21:48] did uh, uh, Honduras go to war with El Salvador over like a couple of soccer.
[21:55] Yes, yes, yes. I heard about that. I, I don’t know the whole story, but I did hear about it.
[22:00] I don’t think it was actually about soccer games, but I think
[22:03] I like um, I, I heard about that they were fighting for an island or something like that and that’s like very close to El Salvador and like it’s what it’s like, it’s like right in the middle, in the middle of like El Salvador and Honduras. But what I knew is that Honduras bought, that island, but because it was like covering one side of the tub, either word, they were claiming that it was theirs. So
[22:28] Yeah. So that’s probably more important than like a soccer match, but it Kinda gets hailed at that because that’s really funny. So. Okay, here’s a good question. I’m kind of like with the sense of community in Honduras, I know you were sheltered so you probably didn’t see as much of that, but I’m sure you could probably be at least a little bit familiar with it was, were there any like major differences just between like people in the same neighborhood having, um, like ties or something like, you know, feeling like they’re close and bonded. Whereas like over here, like I don’t know anybody in my neighborhood for the most part, you know, versus like church groups that you had, you know, you feel really bonded. There is a kind of a, the sense of community. Is there anything really different or are harsh that you found in your, in from going there to here?
[23:23] So I, I guess I didn’t really live this, but I know a lot of people, like people from communities and like, uh, from neighborhoods, they knew each other. Like I guess if you didn’t have your keys to get to your home, you just go to your neighbor and stay there for like the afternoon till your parents got there. And it was like, people are very friendly and they’re very open with each other and they create a relationship like that. Uh, I mean I’ve read a lot of stories of like, oh, my neighbor, she’s my best friend or she’s like, I tell her all my secrets and now everything, everything. Right. And I mean, I didn’t grow up like that, but yeah, I, I,
[24:02] you kind of have like a little bit of a special story, I guess in that sense. Yeah. Okay. So what
[24:12] I want to phrase this, um, shoot. I had it in my head. I’m sorry. So, um, okay. So what was it like? I’m just being in the United States. Um, shoot. I lost my train of thought. I had it, I had it right on the tip of my tongue. Hold on, it’s coming back. I’m going to cut this part out. Um. Oh yeah. So coming in, you said that Andrea and her family, so you guys like New People in this area, do they live, do they live in Charlottesville when you guys were back trying to make the decision? Um,
[24:53] yes. So when they came here and they like they spend like one or two weeks in Brotha, Maryland with my other family but then they moved to Charlottesville just because he thought they was going to be better and they started working at a restaurant and then they start to move on from that. It wants to legal stuff starting this or starting to like uh, like take in like taking place in everything. So we were just looking at how they were doing with all, like how they were basically like moving on from like the harsh, like lifestyle or like the difference on like coming to this country now because you’re not doing the same job. Yeah, exactly. Like you have to really start over exactly like it’s basically like starting your whole life over and not, not just for like us as teenagers or young adults, but like for your parents that they’d basically be able to live there. So like her, her mom, like she used to work, like at the same, like basically the same thing that my mom used to work and then she came here and they started working at a restaurant like as a family, but then they started to like progress and like, um, so we kind of saw their example as to like think like a motivation basically to come here and like, like it’s like it’s hard but then you’re going to move on from that. It’s going to get better basically.
[26:15] So there’s um, kind of the theory behind him or that works with immigration and it’s called networking. So it’s kind of like once somebody comes and starts to do it and they can do it, like they don’t necessarily invite, but they influenced the other people that they know back home basically. And it makes it easier for them to come and like, oh, hey, I know this person, here’s a job here, like I can set you up kind of thing. And it just knowing people around makes it easier to live there and get stuff down. Definitely. So like once that first family does come and it’s successful. So like Andrea’s family, which is incredibly difficult to do just in general, um, like that kind of plays along with the theory. Like it just, I’m sure it made the decision a little bit easier knowing that they were here. Um, do you know of any other reasons why you guys came or would come to Charlottesville other than really you guys knew Rudy and his family came here and were successful.
[27:14] So, um, uh, when we came here three years ago, the first year we, we used to live in Rockville, Maryland guys, they look out there for a little while. Yeah. So we stay there longer than they did. But then um, we just thought that opportunities here in Charlottesville were like bigger for my family. And then like my, like under his mother, she got like a job at a preschool and so my mom saw it and saw that and she was like, oh, I think I can do that because my mom has like a greater mass or like a level of education that my, than my aunt. So she was like, oh, so if she did it that way, that it’s possible that I could do it the same way. So that was kinda like one of the things that we inquire, we chose to stay in Charlottesville the longest I guess. Okay.
[28:03] So, um, you guys have been in Charlottesville for two years then, right? So, um, you can answer yes or no for this. I’m not like pressuring you to answering like, oh yeah, but um, can you kind of feel like a sense of ownership and a sense of community with just Charlottesville itself or um, or that kind of in comparison to like back home or even in Rockville, you guys were there for a year? Um, because like certainly I’ve grown up in Charlottesville my entire life and I, I definitely feel a sense of like logging and like, oh yeah, that’s like Charlottesville, that’s where I live. That’s my home city. Do you kind of have any of the same vibes or similar feelings? We Charlottesville or you know, like is that, are you still like, Nah, that’s not really, just kind of where I live.
[28:46] Probably not. I mean that’s perfectly fine now you feel more comfortable when you’re around people that you’ve known your entire life, you know, and like people that speak your same language. So no, probably not, not yet.
[29:00] I mean, yeah, I don’t want to pressure you and be like, Oh, you have to love Charlottesville because like there are plenty of them,
[29:08] especially when the, I guess I’m really trying to like, just like to feel comfortable in a place where it’s not where I grew up basically.
[29:16] Yeah. Okay. That’s a great bridge into my next question. So like you mentioned the Latino Club that you started, what was the name of that again? Latin acts. Yeah. Um, and it kind of like being comfortable and like it’s not your first language and coming in. So how do you think I’m like that, like what, what does that feel like not being comfortable in like your own high school and kind of like your language and things like that and coming into a new country and then kind of after you answered that question, where do you see going forward and how can we make it better for people that are coming in or are comfortable and especially the Latino community. Um, kind of how we can make them feel more comfortable and you know, Kinda open up things so that they are better.
[30:03] So, um, the Lantin acts club was started this year and our goal is to give a voice to those, uh, uh, like Latinas at school and feel that um, they don’t have to go to school just because they have to get their classes done. But because it’s a place where they can gather together and make friends and like hang out and feel comfortable. Even though it’s not a place where you grew up that it’s not a place that you know, that you’ve had, have known like your entire life, you know. So our goal is our goal is to like integrate those people and give them like an environment where they can feel that they belong somewhere. So like event. And so I went on a leadership retreat this past weekend and I feel like I learned a lot from them from that because like they’re trying to get involved more and more people that are not just like American, you know, like when I was there this past weekend, it was just like five people that were in there were not from like from here. So we had I guess so yeah, like four people from Latin America and then another person from Afghanistan. And so what we’re trying to do is to get more people into going through those theater retreat in like feel that they belong somewhere and identified themselves. Like, oh, that’s Albemarle high school. I went there and like, yeah, I made. I made a lot of memories over there. So make them feel like they’re at home basically.
[31:40] Yeah. That’s awesome. So where do you think, what do you think we can do better? Kind of as a society or a Charlottesville or just as teenagers even, um, to make people feel more welcome and feel more at home. Um, and kind of get away from this idea of like, oh, I’m an American because I grew up here, I’m white, I’m redneck, you know, like, I kind of get away from that idea and into like, you know, this is your home, this because this is where you live and you should feel comfortable. How do you, how do you think we can like, do better at that?
[32:12] So I guess like we like the Latino communities and other people that are in nature that didn’t grow up in the US a day. We just want to feel that they belong somewhere when they come here. So I guess like we have to adapt to this new culture so that, uh, um, the weekend, like succeed or like move on from this or like, yeah, make work. Um, we can just integrate everyone, you know, because the, uh, one of my problems was like, I just felt like the school was very segregated so we had like this type of people taking honors or AP classes or this going to people taking like ESL classes or like they’re not allowed to take any other languages because they now have to learn English. So one of the thing, one of the things that I’m doing is that a, like regular classes like personal finance or this require P.E., those required classes that you have to take to like mix them together and create a sense that it’s not segregated and it’s more like diverse. So like include them in everything they do. And uh, this year what we’re doing in Albemarle is not like if we have a spirit week, we’re not just doing posters in English, we’re doing it in Spanish or in another or another languages we have around a school. So like making them feel more like integrated in it plays where I mean they, they didn’t grow up in. So like making them feel welcome.
[33:46] Yeah, that’s awesome. Okay. Um, all right. So I guess just one more big question, I’m kind of reflections that you’ve had as a whole kind of looking at the way that you felt during the whole process and kind of, um, the entirety of, of moving countries entirely different societies, um, kind of what you get from that. What do you get from that? Like, um, what did you learn from that? Was it good, bad, you know, not really that great experience and kind of just self reflections and like final thoughts kind of,
[34:24] um, it was pretty hard I guess when we came here because we didn’t have like a house to stay too, so, um, I dunno, I guess so the first year, like I said before and we stayed with my aunt down in Rockville, Maryland, so we kind of like lived in her basement for a couple of months and then we moved here. Um, but it was not like it was now you’re home. It was, it didn’t feel like home. So yeah, definitely it’s, yeah.
[34:56] Can’t imagine like picking up things and moving to China or something.
[34:59] Yeah. And I mean like we just like, we had a, like a bag with us and that was it. That’s crazy. Yeah. I mean all our stuff, all this stuff that my mom bought recently in Honduras. It was just gone
[35:13] know people say like, oh, it’s such an adventure, but. No, that’s terrifying. Fine. Yeah. Alright, well that’s pretty much all at all. I have, um, that’s 35 minutes of speaking. Thanks for allowing me to do this. I’m going to write a lot of stuff about this and um, yeah, that’s, that’s all I got. Okay.
[35:34] If you need more things, I feel like I like, I’m not telling it not. I mean we can, we can do this again and just like mean nothing. If I think of a good amount of big questions just like write them down, then we can do like a 10 minute supplements or something like that. That will be perfect.

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Crystal Jing Luo

Crystal Jing Luo

My name is Crystal Jing Luo, and I’m currently a second year graduate student studying 20th century American history at the University of Virginia. My research centers on post-war Asian immigration to the US and the history of Asians in America, with a focus on leftist organizing and immigrant entrepreneurship. This class at JMU has been a wonderful opportunity to expand my knowledge and engage with oral history first-hand.

 

When I’m not swimming through coursework, I’m either watching scary movies, zoning out on Twitter — occasionally at the same time — or visiting my family in Manassas, VA.

Eric Keener

Eric Keener

Eric Keener

The name’s Eric. I’m a Mathematics major and Secondary Education minor with a passion for helping others. My interests include studying history, writing proofs, and teaching others! I aspire to be the best teacher I can be, so I constantly seek out opportunities to expand my horizons. More often than not, I will be hanging around on campus in the math department or one of the libraries.

Zach Sims

Zach Sims

Zach Sims

I am a freshman History major with a double minor in Interdisciplinary Studies and Political Science. I am pursuing a teaching degree and one day would like to teach at the highest level possible. I am from Charlottesville, Va and I am very excited about exploring Harrisonburg’s Hispanic community. In my free time, I enjoy watching sports, spending time with friends, and working out. I also spend a lot of time preparing for my wedding this June!