Professor | Immigrant Harrisonburg

Interview with Katherine (Kate) Small

Interview with Katherine Small

by Dylan Shafer

Kathrine Small is a student attending JMU for one year before returning back to England to finish her degree. She was born West Sussex to Methodist parents. During her childhood she gained an idea that every person should be able to try new things, leading her going to university after finishing school. Her job back in the UK working at a summer camp for kids during the summer.

Though she has been here for a short time, she has already viewed the city of Harrisonburg in a good light, remarking that it is friendly and

00:00:10
Speaker 1: Hello this is. My name is Dylan Shafer and I am with

00:00:12

Speaker 2: My name’s Catherine small. I’m 20 years old and I’m an exchange student from the UK.

00:00:22
Speaker 1: Where is your family from in the UK?

00:00:27
Speaker 2: Both my parents are Scottish and then they moved on to England with me and my brother were both born.

00:00:39
Speaker 1: Is there anything you want to talk about from your childhood or any experiences.

00:00:46
Speaker 2: I have a good childhood. Yeah, I went to a primary school in my village.

00:00:54
Speaker 2: I was in school all the way through to 18.

00:00:57
Speaker 2: I went to university in the UK to study history.

00:01:08
Speaker 1: Are you religious?

00:01:10

Speaker 2: Yes I was christened when I was a baby and I’m still Christian. I believe in Christianity.

00:01:20
Speaker 2: I’m part of the Methodist association

00:01:23

Speaker 1: I’m a Methodist too. How did you come to America? You came as an exchange student?

00:01:30
Speaker 2: Yes. So, this is my first time here. I came by myself. No one else in my family has been to the US before. So yeah, I’m here studying for a year as part of my university degree.

00:01:46
Speaker 1: Um do you want to explain more a little bit more about your town here.

00:01:53
Speaker 2: So, I’m from the county of West Sussex.

00:01:57
Speaker 2: It’s in the south of England. The various outfits on the English Channel which borders funds got near Plymouth.

00:02:09
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well or somewhere. Well it’s Portsmouth. Yeah, it’s the others. Yeah.

00:02:15
Speaker 2: It’s the other side. Yeah, it’s really nice mm. What was your first impression of Harrisonburg?

00:02:28
Speaker 2: It feels very like communal right. There seems to me like in a strong sense of community here and I felt safe pretty much straight away which was a concern of mine because it’s such obviously America’s so big that I and I come from an area which is really small that I was concerned about but not instantly felt welcomed and safe.

00:02:59
Speaker 1: And have you seen any changes in the short time you’ve been here in Harrisonburg.

00:03:08
Speaker 2: Not really. Like I guess that when I came here I everyone was really friendly, and I immediately felt welcomed and that hasn’t really changed.

00:03:17
Speaker2: Like I haven’t noticed any difference

00:03:20

Speaker 1: I think I already know the answer to this one, but have you even met a significant other.

00:03:27
Speaker 2: No.

00:03:33
Speaker 1: Do you have a job here.

00:03:35
Speaker 2: No, I’m not allowed based on my student visa.

00:03:39
Speaker 1: Do you work back in the UK.

00:03:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, I work in the summer holidays like kids summer camp. Yeah.

00:03:48
Speaker 2: Okay.

00:03:50
Speaker 1: And do you have like a business or organization you’re involved with here on campus or in Harrisonburg.

00:04:01
Speaker 2: Not really. I’m involved in sort of being an ambassador for my university about Come here. If that makes sense so trying to get students to do a semester abroad at my university in.

00:04:18
Speaker 1: And so what are your future plans.

00:04:26
Speaker 2: Finish their share and go home. I’ll do my final year and then hopefully go into politics in some way either through journalism or work and so in office.

00:04:45

Speaker 1: What changes do you think you would like to see in Harrisonburg and we are going to save the world, in terms of foreign nationals.

00:04:53
Speaker 2: I think in terms of the world I think people should become a lot more tolerant of those that are foreign coming into that country. I know being from the UK it’s also a contentious issue that I personally think everyone should be welcomed everywhere. Yeah I just I think I’d like to see people become more tolerant unless scene phobic.

00:05:35
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah yeah.

00:05:40
Speaker 1: What do you think of the rhetoric used in immigration both here and abroad.

00:05:47
Speaker 2: I think it’s one to try and make people scared and to try and make people fear. People coming into the country and make them see them as a threat as opposed to someone that could help in which the culture already. I think it’s a shame. I think it should be the other way around.

00:06:11
Speaker 1: But what what do you think students should learn about immigration and foreign nationals having.

00:06:36
Speaker 2: During my youth but now I personally think it’s something that if possible every student should try and do. It’s been a really enriching experience for me in terms of learning about a new culture and sort of learning to embrace as much as possible and I think it’s something lots of students would benefit from if they could make it.

00:07:04
Speaker 1: That’s all I got so that’s going to be and be the end of the interview.

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Interview with Evelin Gonzales

by Sophie Grace & Meghan Healy

MIGRATION

Evelin Gonzales was born in 1983 in Nicaragua, and lived in the countryside near the Costa Rican border with her parents and grandparents until she was a year old and her family moved to the country’s capital city, Managua. She discusses living and and growing up in Nicaragua, specifically in the city, and the overall limited educational resources:

“Nicaragua is very limited in education resources. So, what I just remember if you wanted to– the main thing for me, I really enjoy reading. And so if you wanted to read the good books you– I remember walking like a mile and a half to get to the library or more…from my high school there was a government building and they had a good library. So, but then you have to walk back home and it’s dark. I remember going after classes and spending maybe an hour, hour and a half, but you cannot check out books. So you can only read there, so you will be like, okay, ‘I’m finishing my page, 146, I’ll pick it up tomorrow’, so you have to be very disciplined.”

Evelin lived in Managua until her immigration to the U.S. 5 years ago after meeting her husband, an American citizen. Evelin met her husband while he was doing 4 years of service work for the Mennonite Central Committee in Nicaragua. After dating for three years, the couple got married in Nicaragua two months after Evelin graduated college in 2006 with a degree in accounting. During her 5-year accounting degree program, Evelin was very involved; she was a member of the student union, and did a lot of networking and research on international trade agreements and their impact on education and the lives of women. Evelin and her husband both lived and worked in Nicaragua for 12 years.

Before ultimately agreeing to move the U.S., Evelin had substantial reservations about living here. Her perceptions were based on her experiences of violence and turmoil growing up in Nicaragua’s unstable political climate, and informed her overall negative sentiments of the U.S.:

“So I was born in 1983, so we have a very long history with the United States and, the US finance– help to set and finance a dictator for 45 years in Nicaragua. So finally the Nicaraguans were able to organize a revolution until that happened in 1979. But then since the revolution there were a lot of, pretty much they wrote a new constitution and there were like more rights given to women and uh, there was uh, there was a lot of social changes and changes in the distribution of wealth too, uh, but there was also more war financed by the United States. So we had the revolution in 1917 and 1879. And then we have 10 more years of war, and so like that I can definitely remember like bombs, airplanes dropping bombs and stuff like that.”

Evelin honestly did not want to come to the U.S. She and her husband “had a long three years negotiation” about moving here. She recalls thinking, “I didn’t want to come to the US. I think that if I ever thought about marrying somebody, how that was for sure…So, um, it was really difficult to think about coming to the United States.” After she and her husband had a discussion about their personal differences and their country’s cultural differences, Evelin and her husband made an agreement to get married and move to the U.S. so her husband would be able to do work in the community, and so Evelin would have an opportunity to meet the people that “didn’t bomb [her] country” and who were “pretty much against that”.

Evelin and her husband lived with her family for 2 years in Nicaragua after they were married. Evelin describes getting her visa as “a really easy process”, because she felt she got lucky by her parents sharing a connection with the interviewer (they both attended the same university). Evelin also acknowledges that her relatively smooth immigration process, that was finalized in 30 days, was definitely unlike most cases, which often take years.

When Evelin came to visit the U.S. for the first time, she stayed for about a month and then returned to Nicaragua. She had both of her two children in Nicaragua, and came back again when her youngest child was seven months old, and her oldest was two. Five years ago, Evelin and her husband moved to Harrisonburg, her husband’s hometown, in order to be closer to his parents and his side of the family, and have been here ever since.

INTEGRATION

Evelin’s integration was a very unique case. She came to America because of her husband’s status and his family is over here. She said, “We mostly moved because we wanted the kids to be close to their grandparents for the side of the family in”. Her economic integration included her multiple visits to America. She has been back and forth for many years. Her second trip to America she got a job at a daycare:

“He came to the US, he could get a job. So we came on a Friday. He started working on Monday and um, yeah I, after two weeks I’m like, dear, I’m ready to go back home so or I get a job or I’m leaving. And so, but then I went to OCP. They had a community activity and I met a lady in She asked me, I saw a little boy walking in and he could be cute. So the lady was like, “do you like kids?” So I’m like, “I don’t know what she’s trying to say” with my husband and interpret for me and he’s asked your girl. And so she’s like, um, she was the director of program (Roberta) Webb Child Care Center and she’s like, “if I have an opening I will let you know”. And so she called me that same week and they had an opening”.

They decided to go back to Nicaragua and get married. One they had two kids and decided to move back to America after an ongoing debate and counseling. Now they have been in America for five years since their last visit. Evelin wanted to get a job quickly just like the last time since she needed her independence too. She started to work at Bowl of Good while she was looking for something more permanent. “wanted to work because I’m very independent. I go nuts with kids and home and just baby talk grownups and know I cannot be in home. I started working for a few hours and a bowl of good. So I was helping in the kitchen”. Evelin started to get a little bored so she was looking into First Step which helps those who have been in abusive relationships, specifically women. Since Evelin had experience working with a women and domestic violence prevention she thought that would be a perfect choice. Her husband suggested Everence down the street from Bowl of Good since she has an accounting background so she applied to both companies. She heard back from First Step but turned it down. “I get a phone call from the other place, offered me the job for working in First Step as a case manager. But then I’m like, no, I want to try the financial figures and do something different”. Evelin now serves as the Branch Manager for the Everence Federal Credit Union branch located in Harrisonburg. She joined the Everence team in 2015 by helping to meet clients’ needs through loans and other credit union services for individuals, families and small businesses.

Evelin talked a lot about the attitudes she received from the Harrisonburg community. When she first came to America she did not speak a word of english and was only here for a couple of months. People thought she was very nice and sweet at first. When she started to learn more english and question some things the Mennonite church was doing her friends changed their views. When she came back the second and third time the church community were not a fan of her views and reservations.

“So I feel like my first visit to the US, it was kind of a honeymoon. You don’t actually talk you’re so quiet. You’re so cute, you know, like you don’t actually express yourself because you don’t know the language. And so the second time that I came then I wasn’t that great anymore because you start seeing how are the church dynamics and how are the politics and you were like, oh, but I don’t agree with that and what is the church doing and how. And so then people were like, Oh, let me tell you how we Mennonites do it”.

Other than her few struggles with the church Evelin had a smooth transition to regular life in America. Her sister moved out to be closer to her and she started a family with a westerner as well. The process for her to get her papers were very easy. She actually applied back in Nicaragua thinking it would take a long time, enough time that she could still live in Nicaragua for a couple of years. It actually only took a couple of months so she decided to decline the order so she could stay in Nicaragua longer. We did not ask specifically about the Nicaraguan community and if she had a part with them if there was one.

Going off experiences learning English and going to school were interesting. She told us she learned English by means of work since her husband was her main translator and many did not speak Spanish at the time. “I learned English mostly by work pressure and so I enrolled into the MBA program at EMU a one year, a year ago. So I’m completing my first year”. Going into her educational experiences, Evelin got her bachelor’s accounting degree in Nicaragua and just enrolled in EMU’s Masters degree in business as she said in the previous quote. Since she had a college education before coming to America it made the whole job process and reception much easier.

Evelin spent a great deal of time talking about her preconceived ideas of America. Her political incorporation was a pretty big deal. When she was young there was a lot of conflict with the Nicaraguan government and the U.S. ideals. Nicaragua had a dictator at the time and of course America is/was against those types of power structures. The U.S. sent lots of troops and warfare to Nicaragua which affected Evelin’s perceptions of Americans. She saw them as these negative people who destroyed her homeland with bombs. Those events had a lasting effect until adulthood and resentment was very prevalent.

“So we had the revolution in 1917 and 1879. And then we have 10 more years of war and so like that I can definitely remember like bombs, airplanes dropping bombs and stuff like that. And even coming to the U.S. it’s funny because sometimes I meet people and they were like, oh yeah, “I was in Nicaragua in the eighties and I was working in the aviation”. I was like, yeah, maybe you were one of those dropping bombs, those bombs that I still remember”.

Evelin’s integration was/is very different than most stories we have looked at in our class. She came over here because of marriage and family while many did it because they wanted a better life. She had a great life and plans to return to Nicaragua very soon.

MEMBERSHIP

Overall, Evelin’s attitudes about moving to the U.S. and the U.S. in general were not favorable. To this day, and especially under our current administration, Evelin still has her reservations about living in the U.S. She discusses,

“I didn’t want to come to the U.S. because I’m like, what kind of people live in that place? What kind of– what are their values? Really? I just didn’t want it. I don’t have any desire of coming to the U.S….After the these elections I told my husband, this is exactly the country that I thought it was…”

Despite these doubts, Evelin is now a citizen of the United States. She discussed a little about the lengthy bureaucratic process and mentioned that a spelling mistake was made on her naturalization certificate and how she is currently waiting for that to be fixed, “I got my citizenship like a month ago. But my certificate, my naturalization certificate, my name was misspelled. And just to fix that it’s going to take like close to $600 and maybe between 6 and 13 months and they haven’t even sent me a letter saying that they had received the papers and I, I sent it back overnight so I know they got the papers…”

Evelin doesn’t really go back to Nicaragua for visits with her family because she doesn’t have an American passport yet, but her parents do visit once a year and stay for about a month. However, she does anticipate going back to Nicaragua with her family to potentially do a 3-5 year service term. Her two sons are both bilingual in Spanish and English, and are both enrolled in dual-immersion programs, which are offered in most Harrisonburg public schools. She also mentioned that her sons always say their evening prayers in Spanish as her mother and sister taught them.

To conclude the interview, we asked Evelin if she had any advice for her younger self, to which she answered with words I think we all have needed to hear at one point or another,

“Just be adaptable and wherever you are, just be yourself, learn the culture, it takes several years, and be open and be adaptable. I think an open mind–and I have to adapt so much in this job and in this culture, what do you say and what you don’t say and what the rituals and yeah, just be open. Um, there’s nothing that will prepare you for, you know, the different scenarios you’re going to face, but take it easy. Always take it as a learning experience. Even when I get really upset, I’m like, ‘ah, I’m definitely learning something from this one’…Everything is different and every person, I don’t know, has a way of expressing themselves and that’s not just about you, it’s about a lot more than that. And so I learned not to take anything personal and to always try to learn something from your experience and yeah, don’t let it get to you. Learn something from that experience.”

CONNECTIONS TO CLASS

In the second half of the class we talked a lot about receptions and Evelin had a good amount to say about this topic. She was well received at first but when she began discussing her personal opinions her truth came to the surface. Since then she has felt like Harrisonburg is her second home. Her sister is about to live in the house right next to her and has started her own family. In the Washington Post article by Andrew D. Perrine, you can definitely see signs of a positive reception. One even said, “This support shows us the community is standing with us. This makes us feel like we are all Americans”. What we have previously seen in Evelin’s story is very different to the stories we have mainly studied. She was not undocumented for that long and was very privileged when trying to obtain citizenship. In Roberto G. Gonazales’ “Learning to be Illegal” we saw the struggles of being an undocumented teen. Evelin says that she understood the struggle others had and because of that she would take her kids to all of the local marches surrounding immigration. She wanted to show them the other side of immigration that she fortunately did not have to go through. In the Massey reading, “Why Immigration Occurs” we see how Evelin’s marriage and connections with her husband’s family is what ultimately brought her to the United States. In fact it was the only reason why she would come over since she had reservations about America to begin with especially its government policies.

Sophie: Yeah. Do you want to just start off about talking about like where you were born and just like the background. Yeah.

Evelin: What kind of background?

Sophie: Like um, so you were in Nicaragua, correct. So just Kinda just talk about your childhood and stuff like that, if that makes sense?

Meghan: Well I guess we could start with like where and when you were born. Let’s start with something specific.

Evelin: I was born in Nicaragua, the and um, I live with my grandparents and parents until I was one year old and we were born umm. I was born in the countryside and then my parents decided to move to the city and so I grew up in Managua, the capital.

Meghan: Okay.

Evelin: Yup.

Meghan: Um, what is your like education history like? Where did you go to school? In Nicaragua or did you do that when you came to the US?

Evelin: No, I went to, um, I didn’t, I have an accounting degree and so I did that in Nicaragua

Meghan: Okay.

Evelin: And so, um, when I came to the US we came five years ago.

Meghan: Okay.

Evelin: And so, um, I learned English mostly by work pressure and so I enrolled into the MBA program at EMU a one year, a year ago. So I’m completing my first year. Oh, the MBA.

Sophie:Nice. And then when you said we, was it just you coming over or was it your family, your husband?

Evelin:Yeah, I met my husband in Nicaragua. He was an MCC, MCC is a Mennonite Central Committee. He was a service worker for the Mennonite church and so he went, to Nicaragua for four years of service, so we met there and we dated for three years and then we got married and he started working in Nicaragua, a local worker for the same organization. And so he pretty much ended up being there for a total of 12 years.

Meghan:Oh Wow.

Evelin: And um, yeah. And so we got married in 2006, I was just talking with some friends and I just got married like two months after I after i finished my college. like thats too much.

Meghan:Yeah, that’s definitely a big change.

Sophie: Yeah, for sure.

Meghan: So you said that you grew up like on the countryside and then moved to the city. What was your experience like growing up in the capital and like what was that like being there.

Evelin: You know, so growing up actually I was from like maybe one year old when we moved from the countryside.

Meghan: Okay.

Evelin: So living in the city it was, Nicaragua is very limited in education resources. Okay. So what, I just remember if you wanted to, the main thing for me, I really enjoy reading. And so if you want it to read the good books, you um, I remember walking like a mile and a half to get to the library or more and um, yeah, or uh, there was um, and from my high school there was a government building and they had a good library. So, but then you have to walk back home and it’s dark. And so, um, so I remember going after, um, after classes and spending maybe an hour, hour and a half, but you cannot check out books.

Meghan: Oh really?

Evelin: So you can only read there, so you will be like, okay, finishing my page 46. Oh, pick it up tomorrow.

Meghan: That’s crazy

Evelin: So you have to be very disciplined.

Sophie: Right. So, um, how has your, education, you said you got your degree in accounting. So how was that process like going to like college in Nicaragua? Is there any conflicts or anything, anything like that?

Evelin: Um, you know, it’s. So the, I went to a public school, a public university, and actually in accounting, the public university was the one that was pretty hard to get in. Um, it was cheap. The problem in Nicaragua is not that you cannot afford, you can only not afford college because you, your family needs your income, so you must do work. It’s not that it’s expensive. Um, but my parents were very supportive, so I applied for the university. You have a test that you have to pass and it’s very competitive. But um, I got in accounting and it was a five year program, um, and I really enjoy kind of studying in networking and so I got into, into the student union and so I did a lot of networking in research for international trade agreements and so all their student unions, we’re also focusing on that. And so we were working like in the Central American region doing education about the impact of international trades like CAFTA

Meghan: yeah.

Evelin: Yeah, because it had a lot of impact in education and women.

Meghan: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Wow, that’s really fascinating. Um, was there like a, a culture of migration, like where you were from? Like, did you know a lot of people that like either left Nicaragua to go somewhere else or like people that went to the US? Did you know, a lot of people that left or?

Evelin: I knew a little, not in the city and the city I guess, there was a lot of migration, internal migration from, uh, the north or the countryside to the city.

Meghan: Okay.

Evelin: Um, but yes, I remember a lot of migration from my hometown because that’s close to the Costa Rican border. And so a lot of people you will know that half of my, my aunts and uncles are in Costa Rica and it is, it is very common, that kind of migration.

Meghan: Yeah. Yeah

Evelin: But I didn’t know a lot of people moving to the United States. Nope.

Meghan: Okay.

Evelin: Most people migrate in Nicaragua, most people migrate. And um, to Costa Rica and if you see it right now, if you see a with Nicaragua is struggling politically right now, but they you don’t hear about Nicaraguans and the Immigration Caravan that is coming to the US right now.

Meghan: Right, Right

Evelin: They still migrating, but they like to stay closer and I guess we don’t have the language barrier and so people just cross the border and go to Costa Rica when things settle they go back or they back and they go back and forth.

Sophie: Okay, nice. Um, so before moving to the US we’ll talk more about that, but did you have any like preconceived ideas about the US and your like perceptions?

Evelin: Definitely! We have a lot. Um, so I was born in 1983, so we have a very long history with the United States and like, the US financed, helped to set in finance a, what is it called, what is the word that I’m looking for? Dictator for 45 years in Nicaragua. So finally they (Nicaraguans). Were able to organize a revolution a until that happened in 1979. But then since the revolution there were a lot of, pretty much they wrote a new constitution and they were like more rights given to women and, there was uh, there was a lot of social changes, and changes in the distribution of wealth to but there was also more war finances by the United States. So we had the revolution in 1917 and 1879. And then we have 10 more years of work and so like that I can definitely remember like bombs, airplanes dropping bombs and stuff like that. And even coming to the US is funny because sometimes I meet people and they were like, oh yeah, I was in Nicaragua in the eighties and I was working in the aviation. I was like, yeah, maybe you were one of those dropping bombs, those bombs that I still remember. Wow. And so, so when I met my husband, we had a long three years negotiation because I didn’t want to come to the US. I think that if I ever thought about marrying somebody, who was not from the United States that was for sure. So it was, it was very interesting because I, and even agreeing can now, talking about getting married. I’m like, yeah, but we can live here, right? We don’t need to go to the United States. So, um, it was really difficult to think about coming to the United States. Uh, we even have like a counseling sessions.

Meghan: Oh really?

Evelin: It was, so they call it, like the, it was some friends that were doing a masters in psychology. And so they have, they call it family constellation. So you are in a, you have like an audience and there were like 20 people in the room. And then you are the couple, they’re used to do the counseling, so each of you is invited to choose for the audience who is going to represent your family. So you were like, okay, you can you be my sister? And could you be my? And so they asked you to arrange your family. And so I chose my mother, my father, my brother, my sister, my country. And so I put them my idea, my mom, my dad, my brother and sister. I’m the middle child and then my country in front. So my husband chose his mother, father, sister, him (himself) and the country was big, tall guy from Italy. And so I remember that. Then they ask you to introduce your fiance to the family and you go. And my husband is, he went and did a big bow to the family and to the country. And then they asked me to do the same. And then for me that was the end is it wasn’t conscious that I was standing there and thinking, I’m like, I’m just going to move my head too, you know, that’s a recognition. That’s a reverence to the country. Ten minutes later my body didn’t move and then they asked me like, hey, this is over, I can do this. And then I turned back to the guy representing the US and my body for another five minutes didn’t move. So then there was like the breaking point. There were obviously a big difference between us like are countries would have been. Yeah. So we, we discuss about that and that was when we made an agreement. Okay, okay. He was like, you know, I’m from the US but I’m [inaudible recording] I put a lot of energy and time and community development and making my community a better place. So I think that I would like you to come to the US and meet the family the people that you know, didn’t bomb your country, that didn’t finance the war. They were pretty much like against that. And so we made that agreement and that was when we, okay, we can get married now. And so we live with my family for two years after we get married and then we came to the US and we lived with his parents and his community and we went to church and I met all these other people and then we went back to Nicaragua.

Meghan: So you said five years ago you came?

Evelin: Yes, but I guess five years since we have our kids, I came that first time and yeah, we can now get to know his family. I can know Harrisonburg and pretty much like the Mennonite community. And, and then we moved back to Nicaragua.

Sophie: And how long were you back in Nicaragua?

Evelin: Five Years.

Sophie: Ahh five years again. Okay. And then how was that transition coming back into the US? Was it intended to be permanent or did you think?

Evelin: No, I don’t think this is permanent. I think I wanted to get my citizenship because that’s the other part about immigration. It’s not once you are a US resident is now that you can just go back to your country and stay there. So you will have some legal immigration status that you can, have to protect. And so were in Nicaragua for five years, but we have to do a letter like a special permits. And so when we came back I knew that I couldn’t go back to Nicaragua for many years because I needed to because I didn’t have any. If I was, if I decided to go back to Nicaragua, just to visit, I was taking the chance of not being able to come back to the US.

Evelin: And so, uh, my only choice was to stay solid, um, in the US for four years and then apply for a citizenship. And so I did that. I didn’t, I didn’t travel or do anything. Um, and then I applied for citizenship. I just got my citizenship like a month ago.

Meghan: So you got your citizenship, like separate from being married to your husband or was there like something about like him being a US citizen, because I know that there’s like the K-1 visa thing where like people can come over and like get married here or like there’s like different, like routes you can kind of take. Like were you just kind of like on your own? Like, do you know what I’m saying?

Evelin: Yes. I know what you were saying. umm I think it wouldn’t be the case. It would have been the case. I got married in Nicaragua we didn’t get married in the US.

Meghan: Right, right

Evelin: Sometimes it’s difficult when you get married outside the US, it’s better to do the fiancee visa to the US and get married. That’s the easy one. Some people like in our case, like I wasn’t thinking and coming to the United States like right away or anything. They told me that my visa was going, my, my paperwork, it was going to take between six months and a year in a half hour. So I get married soon after I finished college, then, um, then I applied for that and they give it to me in 30 days.

Meghan: Oh Wow.

Evelin: And then I was like, oh, I’m starting a new job. I’m excited about my job and I don’t want to go to the United States. Right. So I have to. And so they told me, okay, you can deny your residency and apply again. And so I didn’t have any other choice. I came, it was a really easy process and I, I can easily identify what happened. My parents went to Nicaragua, they went to the embassy, they sign in Nicaragua, the affidavit of support and she (worker at the embassy) made a special connection with the person interviewing us. They went to the same college and I don’t know what happened there, but something made everything easier after that. So we got everything, um, finalized it in 30 days and that wasn’t usually the case. Right. And so, um, so that was my experience and, and I do acknowledged that that’s the best way for most of the case.

Meghan: That’s just one that I’ve heard of, you know, the most like…

Evelin: And some I have had some other friends that they got married in Nicaragua and then the husband was in the US trying to bring her.

Meghan: Right.

Evelin: It didn’t work. Yeah. I have another friend that it was the same and NCC service worker married over there for more than a year and she’s still there trying to get her papers.

Meghan:Wow

Evelin: It was pretty it sometimes when you think about immigration in some cases about of luck, there’s no pretty much the person interviewing you decide, how is the process going to be.

Meghan: Exactly. Yeah. Um, so I know that you like with the whole story about like kind of like counseling sort of thing. You did like obviously you had reservations about leaving.

Evelin: Yeah

Meghan:What were some of like, I don’t know, like your fears and concerns, like specifically like, I don’t know, you’re leaving your family or like adapting to like a completely new, you know, culture.

Evelin: I wasn’t even thinking about that. I was just like the image of international image of the US is about, especially as in Jamaica, like the damage that the United States have been doing with a financing wars and it’s an economic strategy. You know, if you control what they eat, you control their people.

Meghan: Yeah

Evelin: If you control every time that something big, major umm war happen in Nicaragua or happened in Central America. Then as soon as everything is okay, the US gain more power or the companies, it’s not. Think about it. the big corporations, they the one, they create the, the crisis and then they gain markets, ensuring the markets. So I didn’t want to come to the US because I’m like, what kind of people live in the US?

Meghan: Yeah.

Evelin: What kind of, what are their values? Really?

Meghan:Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

Evelin: I just didn’t want it. I don’t have any desire of coming to the US. I’m like, I just, I don’t know. We had three years of negotiation.

Meghan:Are you still kind of dealing with that? I mean, are you, do you feel like, I don’t know, like better? or?

Evelin: I feel like when, when, um, after the these elections and I told my husband, this is exactly the country that I thought it was, um, like all these, you know, I don’t, I don’t blame it on the people that are working for US CIS, but it must be really hard when you were working and we are used to following rules and policies and be ethical and your behavior and comply with everything at your job. But then the law is changing.

Meghan: Yeah

Evelin: and you are processing paperwork that is sending people away and divided families. So is that about you? or is it about a system? So if you were the person that you used to send a letter saying, hey, by the way, you know, we still need these other three documents for your case and now the, the new regulations says that instead of saying you need more paperwork, they get a letter saying present to the court because you are in a deportation note. And so it is pretty hard to differentiate the people that work in the system and their ethics and the system itself. So It’s still pretty hard. I feel like with all these changes right now, this is the country that I didn’t want to come to.

Sophie: Yeah, I think we all have. Yes. Mutual feelings. Um, I would love to talk more about you coming here for the second time, which is like the time now. Um, if you would like to talk about, um, did you end up here in Harrisonburg when you came over with your husband?

Evelin: Yeah, my husband’s family from Harrisonburg. So in now we have two kids. Um, when we came, my youngest child was seven months old and my oldest child was two years and seven months. And so, uh, we mostly moved because we wanted the kids to be close to their grandparents from the side of the family and my husband only has one grandmother alive, so we wanted them to meet them

Meghan: Ohh okay.

Evelin: And um, so we came to Harrisonburg and, you know, looking for jobs and all that stuff. But what do you do when you have kids that are so little? So it was pretty difficult and I didn’t want to leave them or send them in a childcare for me it feels like um too much. And so, um, we, we played the immigration game, um, so, but I want it to work because I’m very independent and I go nuts with kids and home and just baby talk. I really need grownups and no I cannot be in home. Isn’t that healthy for me. So, um, I started working for a few hours at A Bowl of Good. Okay. So I was helping in the kitchen. I’m like, at least this is getting me out. So my husband was working for New Bridges, immigrant resource center and so as soon as he came home a few nights a week I was working there, then I’m like, no, this is boring let me find something different. And so I, I, I, I applied for a note for a job at First Step because most of my work experience, um, it was working with a women and domestic violence prevention or women and empower men or women, so a fair trade and all that stuff. Um, so I wanted to work on that field, but um also, my background is accounting. So my husband told me about a job in Everence and so I’m like, I’m look like. So I, I, I grabbed the phone and I call this office and they were like, are you available? I’m like, yeah, come now for an, from to get the paperwork. And it was actually an interview and they were like, okay, here are the paperwork apply and I am like hmm, but the same day I get a phone call from the other place, offered me the job for working in First Step as a case manager. But then I’m like, no, I want to try the financial field to do something different. And so, um, I applied, took a while to get it, but I, I got the job, I got, I was an MSR member service representative for three months and then they offered me the branch manager position.

Meghan: Cool. So when did you start here?

Evelin: Four years ago.

Sophie:Four years?

Evelin: So I was pretty new. I have learned a lot.

Sophie: Um, I would love to talk more about your kids. So you said they were born in Nicaragua, how was that process? I’m dealing with documentation and stuff like that was pretty easy?

Evelin: pretty easy when they were born in Nicaragua, and the US because of their father, they get immediate citizenship. So we just went to the embassy and, completed the paperwork. They were kind of mean in the interview. Whenever they have power they can use it. So they were like, why did you waited five years to have a baby? Did you have any abortions? They were awful. But anyway, after the interview they gave the paperwork and um, for the second child it was actually even easier. They didn’t ask any questions

Meghan & Sophie:[Laughed]

Evelin: And they just give them the paper where they even got their passports. The US passport faster than the Nicaraguan passport in a month they had everything.

Sophie: Oh Nice.

Meghan: Okay. Um, so is all of your family back in Nicaragua or are there any family members in the US?

Evelin: My sister came, so the way that I arrange ahh arrange, childcare it was that my mom came to take care of the kids for six months and then my sister came and helped me with the kids because I wanted to keep them in the home and with family and so, so they can still have that connection.

Meghan: Yeah.

Evelin: So my sister finally met some, her husband here and they got married and so now they live together.

Meghan: They live here in Harrisonburg?

Evelin: Yes, three blocks from my house. Then the house next door.

Meghan: Oh really? That’s picture perfect.

Evelin: Families to stay together.

Meghan: So let’s see, was there any like initial kind of like, when you first arrived, was there any kind of culture shock or anything? Did you experience any like “firsts”?

Evelin: Like when I came with the kids or when I came by myself?

Meghan: Yeah.

Evelin: Yeah, definitely. Like I didn’t speak the language and I knew nothing. My husband, as soon as he came to the US, he got a job. So we came on a Friday. He started working on Monday and um, yeah, I, I, after two weeks I’m like, ‘dear, I’m ready to go back home so I get a job or I’m leaving’. And so, but then I went to OCP, they had a community activity and I met a lady and she asked me– I saw a little boy walking, little baby oh so cute. So the lady was like, do you like kids? So I’m like, I don’t know what she’s trying to say, my husband interpret for me, and so she’s like, um, she was the director of program Webb Childcare Center and she’s like, ‘if I have an opening I will let you know’. And so she called me that same week and they had an opening. And so, um, I practice, my husband was asking me all these questions and I was answering, like what is your name, where do you live… So anyway, when I went there I couldn’t say anything. I was so shy and so red. And I couldn’t say– it’s like she knows everything, they were very nice and they were like, yeah, go and see the job, come over tomorrow and work the entire day. If you like it, you can, that’s your job, you know, you can do it and if you don’t like it, that’s fine. So I went there and I liked working with the kids and I learned a lot and, and I really wanted to work with kids because they say if you want to learn the language, work with kids and they don’t have any problem in letting you know that. So yeah, I did that. It was fun. I really enjoy. So it was close from home so I was able to ride my bike two point six miles and then come back.

Meghan: Were there any like negative experiences? Like maybe, like we’ve talked about, like kind of like a negative reception. Like when immigrants come to like there’s like stereotypes, things like that. People have given you a hard time about…

Evelin: No actually I have a different experience. So I feel like my first visit to the US, it was kind of a honeymoon. You didn’t actually talk, you’re so quiet, you are so cute, you know, like you don’t actually express yourself because you don’t know the language. And so the second time that I came, then it wasn’t that great anymore because you start seeing how are the church dynamics and how are the politics. And you were like, ‘oh, but I don’t agree with that and why is the church doing this and how do–’ And so then people were like, ‘Oh, let me tell you how we Mennonites do it’. I’m like ‘hmm, cool, you were so open and so different’. But when somebody is questioning the way that you do something, um, and yeah, so I think it has been the cultural shock has been more the second part when I can talk and understand and express myself. And I had different interests than just learning, and I knew I was leaving. And this one, I know that I’m leaving, but I know that I’m staying a little bit longer and that, you know, if this is not fair for me, it should not be fair for my kids either. So let’s make some changes. And so I joined like, um, there is an activity– its called Hope for the Future, is pretty much leaders of color in the Mennonite church asking for changes and not just in the church. Also in the church agencies, like Everence is one of them.

Meghan: Um, so would you say that like the reception in Harrisonburg of immigrants, maybe not just with your, like unique experience, would you say it’s like overall positive? Like do you feel like it’s an accepting place to come? I guess elaborate on–

Evelin: You know, I have a lot of privilege, I have education. Um, I have a legal status and now I’m a citizen. I get a job that I’m pretty sure that the first thing, engagement for all, or the first thing for this job was a, they knew my husband, they knew my husband’s family. Um, you were very well seen when you come from service outside the country serving for the Mennonite church. So I get a lot of benefits that I don’t think other people have. And um, yeah, I don’t think that I’m not a good person to compare with the other cases. I know a friend that I’m trying to help her and she has three daughters. She has a deportation order but nobody does anything about it, you know, it’s like, so nobody has asked any team to a lawyer or any other way to, I dunno. I feel like people in Harrisonburg are very nice and very kind and they are very um, willing to help if they connect with other people but they are not very open to people are not that. So it is confusing. It is complicated. Like if I think about the members in my church, you know, they’d go to all the marches, they have a different way of thinking, and if they knew a need they will try to help them. But then they only relate with white people that doesn’t need any help. So I’m like hmm that’s the double side of, I don’t know, it’s complicated, but anyway, maybe I’m not explaining it correctly…

Meghan: No, that’s actually a very fair point. Like we’ve been talking about how overall, receiving communities, or even people in general are more– like if they know someone who was an immigrant or if they like– instead of like “othering” people I guess would be the best way to describe it. Like a lot of people sort of like, see difference rather than seeing similarities. Like they’re, they’re not very “like me” in terms of their language or their culture or whatever. So like I’m going to separate myself from them. You know what I mean? So like, I mean that’s exactly what you were mentioning.

Sophie: Um, have you talked to your kids about your immigration story at all? Does that ever come up?

Evelin: You know, it’s, it’s amazing what kids learn, and how they interpret everything. They know about immigration just because we have this friend that has three kids and they know that, you know, things are difficult. We don’t have tv at home, so whenever they hear news or they hear stuff, they really pay attention. I remember that they went to visit their grandparents one night and my parents in law have a TV and they watch the news and so my oldest child, this was last year. He was watching the news and uh, they were listening, oh, about immigration and all these changes and all that. And they knew that my mother was coming and so he started crying and crying, woke up crying. Like, ‘Mimi’s not white, Mimi’s not from the US, they’re not going to let her come in. Mommy, I would never be able to see my Mimi.” So they get it. They know it. And yeah, there is no way that you can avoid that, you know? And sometimes they come and say, “so their parents don’t speak the language”, you know, “they don’t speak Spanish or they don’t speak English, and so are they going to be deported?” Or, “they are not white, are they going to be deported?” And so they repeat all these stereotypes from the schools, right. Or what they see or what they learned in the schools and um, yeah it is, it is– there is almost no point. They come with us to all the immigration stuff because we don’t usually leave them behind. But um, you know, I try to respect that they are kids and that they are learning and whenever they come up with questions we try to answer and the best way possible in trying to, you know, don’t scare them but tell them what’s going on. But I don’t feel like my situation has not been anything difficult and so it has not been that stressful.

Sophie: So like talking about like a multicultural family, has that influenced anything like in the schools? I know Harrisonburg’s are unique because they have a lot of languages spoken there. Is there any like anything different that you find in the schools when you have like a multicultural family like that?

Meghan: Like with the community, maybe like the other parents or teachers or anything like–

Evelin: You know I’m, I’m really bad because with this master, like I, I rely on my husband and how he connects. He works for the school system and so he takes the kids with him in the morning and he bring them– he comes with them in the afternoon. He’s pretty much the one who is in charge of that. I think the first year that Sammy was in Waterman, the way you know, I grew up with my parents coming to see me in school and bringing me like a snack at 10:00 AM. So I used to see my parents every day during school, and so I did that for, sent me the first year I went to have lunch with him every single day at 11:30 I was in the school. I will warm up his lunch and the microwave and I will jump in the car and be there. It’s so close, you know, it’s like four minutes away, that um, I get to know a lot about the teacher. I think that the teachers were kind of annoyed to have a parent there every single day, but I was able to see how they interact with the kids and set some boundaries with the teachers and with myself and expectations. Maybe they don’t get that kind of interaction with other parents. But for me, it’s like my parents did it for me. Why should I, if I’m able, why shouldn’t I do it for my kids? Um, yeah, I, there were a couple of things that I didn’t like it and I name it right away and she’s like, if you ever need to talk to– you know, she was referring in that very loud voice for child. And I’m like, okay, by the way, here I am. If you’re referring to the way that he’s communicating to me, why don’t you communicate with me and talk with the child and a different tone. Like don’t do that. So anyway, it was um– but I don’t quite relate with a school system, just because I just don’t have time. I leave work and I go to study. I sometimes have classes until 10.

Meghan: Oh 10 at night? Oh Wow. Um, let’s see. How does Harrisonburg compare with the capital back in Nicaragua? You know, big city, I’m assuming so. And then coming to Harrisonburg is relatively small…

Evelin: This is small but Nicaragua is also small and the city is not that big. I feel like the main issues– public transportation is awful. If you don’t have a vehicle you just… So I ride my bike, I walk because I was better off walking then waiting for the bus. So when I came here the first time, if I wanted to take the bus, I will have to walk a lot and then wait for the bus and then the bus will take forever. Actually I was able to get home in 15 minutes and it will take me an hour to ride the bus. So public transportation– I don’t enjoy driving. I hate it. If I can catch a ride or go with somebody else, I would love that. But um, yeah, public transportation, that was a big thing. The other is that the city is not, is not very welcoming, and doesn’t have like a main place where people can get together. Like in Nicaragua in the main cities you have like a, a park in front of the church. But people interact, and they have a common place, and in Harrisonburg downtown, if you’re not in a restaurant where are you? Like there is not a place with benches and a water fountain or something pretty where you can sit down and enjoy being with friends. I don’t see that.

Meghan: I guess was there like a– Did you, I guess observe or experience like a rich culture of um, people from Nicaragua or like I guess like Latinos in this community? Like did you see that? Did you experience it?

Evelin: You know, I experienced fear actually. Like I didn’t have– As I can say, you know, I have a lot of privilege and I can easily not worry about a lot of stuff. But working here, there was a nice lady that I was explaining to her, you know, sometimes I’m not here, can somebody else help you? And, and she was like, can you, you know, teach me how to, can I say deposit? And so I told her how to say deposit, she repeated. Withdrawal, and I say, do you know that in the library there is a nice program that you can use to learn a second language? And I use it, and she’s just like library? She didn’t know. She has been in the US for so many years. And I say, yeah, I will be in downtown today. I say, can we meet? It was like they would– we were going in circles around the town. They couldn’t find it, the library. So we finally met I think like um, close to community mennonite church, and then we walked down to the library. Then I took her to the library and we get our library card, and she’s like, ‘my son can use thi? and how much do you pay?’ So it’s not a membership it’s free. And we went and download Rosetta stone and the app on her cell phone and I explained everything. Then, she called her husband to pick us up. And then we– I remember seeing some bright lights flashing. And um, I thought, oh there must be an accident. It took, we were in the library maybe for an hour, an hour and 15 minutes. And then when we were– when her husband was coming to pick us up, those bright lights, those bright lights were– do you know Community Mennonite on 42? So the following entrance takes you through, close to the ice house and all that. So that was blocked. There was a police checkpoint. And so, um, her husband didn’t have any documents, and so he was coming to pick us up and then we got the phone call, and he starts saying, you know, I think this is a checkpoint. And then I remember the lights, then you connect everything. And I was like, oh my goodness. And he’s like, and I cannot go back because when you are in that strip, how can you go back? So he finally realized that he can turn into, I don’t know how that road, it’s more road, spangler sister, I don’t know, is a store. And so he, he went there and he even walked. It was a nightmare. It was a nightmare. I ended up like trying to find him. Then we found him. Then I say stay here or go pick up at the vehicle. I got pick up the vehicle. By then I didn’t have a citizenship. I was just a resident. I’m like, what if they stop me and I don’t know whose vehicle this is, you know, realize, I don’t know anything about his vehicle. Then I was in trouble. Finally, thank goodness, I found a way to the back road that connects that road with 42. Then I was looking for them. The main point is- those people almost got deported for going to the library. So my easy going experience with all the benefits and going wherever I want and travel wherever I want, it’s not the same. Then all the immigrants and the community that can– that’s why they just go to the poultry plant and work and go back home, because even going downtown sometimes can be risky.

Meghan: Yeah, it’s terrifying and totally unfair. Um, do you speak Spanish at home with your children?

Evelin: Both, yes. Sammy’s pretty good. Both of the kids are very, pretty bilingual and yeah, we uh, we usually go back and forth.

Meghan: Are there any other kind of cultural connections that you keep with them? Like keep at home?

Evelin: Uh, they always do their prayers in Spanish for like going to sleep and stuff like that. Um, because my mom and sister taught them that and so they had like (unintelligible). I dont know they sometimes, they talk to my mom and text her in Spanish and say this was a good day, you know, and writing in Spanish and stuff like that.

Sophie: Do they um– I know some of the schools do like the, they do like the classes in Spanish. Do you have them in those classes?

Evelin: Yeah. They’re both in the same program, in the dual immersion program.

Meghan: Cool. Um, do you, I mean obviously I’m sure you still communicate with your parents and all that. Do, do they come and visit often?

Evelin: Mhm. They come every year and stay one and a half month or so.

Sophie: And then do you ever visit them?

Evelin: I almost, no, because I, I have been in the US with the purpose of getting my citizenship. Now I got my citizenship like a month ago, but my certificate, my naturalization certificate, my name was misspelled. And just to fix that it’s going to take like close to $600 and maybe between six and 13 months. And they haven’t even sent me a letter saying that they had received the papers and I– I sent it back overnight so I know they got the papers. And so I’m stuck in this country for the next 13 months without a passport. And then whenever I get it I’ll have to get my passport. Yeah, I was going to Costa Rica for a, one of my classes and I had to do something else. Cannot leave the country without a passport.

Meghan: So you do have intentions of, I mean obviously traveling, but going back to Nicaragua?

Evelin: Yeah we don’t know yet if we’re going back to Nicaragua. We’re going to do like, um, service term and that’s usually between three and five years in one country. So we prefer to go to South America maybe. Yeah, we pretty much value the– for the kids to know that service is important.

Meghan: Yeah. And I’m sure it’s just like a really enriching experience like all around like, you know.

Evelin: Yeah. I think so.

Meghan: Yeah. I mean travel is so important I think. But um, let’s see. I guess, do you have any– I like this question. Do you have any like, advice for your younger self maybe before you came to the US? Is there anything that maybe now after living here for however many years, being married for almost 10, over 10 years. You said 2006. Yeah so 12 years. Is there anything that you would say, to you know, college grad, like to yourself, I guess. Any advice?

Evelin: Once again?

Meghan: Um, so I guess like after all this experience, you know, leaving your country and all these changes, is there any, anything you’ve learned, any advice that you’d give to your younger self?

Evelin: Just to be adaptable and wherever you are, just be yourself, learn the culture, takes several years, and be open and be adaptable. I think an open mind–and I have to adapt so much in this job and this culture, and what do you say and what you don’t say, and what the rituals– and yeah. Yeah, just be open. Um, I– there’s nothing that will prepare you for,, you know, the different scenarios you’re going to face, but take it easy. Always take it as a learning experience. Even when I get really upset, I’m like, ‘ah, I’m definitely learning something from this one’. Yeah, don’t take it personal. I’m like, sometimes I’m like, I should do anthropology, like learning cultures and study them. Um, everything is different and every person, I don’t know, has a way of expressing themselves and that’s not just about you, it’s about a lot more than that. And so I learned not to take anything personal and to always try to learn something from your experience and yeah, don’t let it go to you. Learn something from that experience.

Meghan: Very well put. I don’t think I have any more questions for you. Is there anything else you want to share? Anything specifically?

No, I hope that I didn’t go, you know, from the– too far away from the questions, say too many things…

Evelin: Yeah, I, I had um, I was helping with this research of about first and second generation of women in the United States, uh, and how they relate with healthcare and how they can identify sexual abuse or domestic violence in their house, especially with pregnant women. Those were fascinating interviews because it is just so difficult. You don’t have any resources or –Who do you talk to?

Sophie: If you don’t have a community, yeah that’s really hard.

Evelin: Yeah and, and, and I guess you, you are so vulnerable.

Meghan: Right you’re so dependent.

Sophie: Oh yeah.

Evelin: And when you don’t have immigration on your side, you, you even feel afraid of asking for help outside and all the police. What if they get to deport you? I don’t know. It’s just I have many lessons and included immigration because I have never had to struggle with them. With those. Yeah. Yeah. There’s so much privilege in my– Yeah.

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Ali Barranghi’s Story

Interview with Ali Barraghi

by Andriana Mesmer and Colette Toma

Introduction:

Everybody has a story to tell. With project, Immigrant Harrisonburg, it is our job to magnify those stories of immigrants. The following project is the story of Ali Barraghi. A Kurdish-American who immigrated with his family from Iran to Harrisonburg. We, Colette and Andriana, have listened to his story and have created an analysis of his experience. In the following paper we will present our methodological issues and insights, Ali’s departure, settlement and attitude toward his immigration process, and lastly Ali’s story with connections to our Sociology of Immigration class content.

Methodological Issues/Insights:

We scheduled to meet Ali at the Barnes and Noble on Burgess Road. When he walked in we greeted each other by shaking hands. From the start, it seemed that interviewing Ali was going to be like getting to know a new friend; you could tell that he was comfortable going into something that most people would be hesitant to do. The two of us, Colette and Andriana, originally chose to sit at a table, but Ali suggested that we find a corner that was more private and comfortable. After he introduced himself, we exchanged a few words about how he knew Professor Trouille. When we told him we were going to begin the interview, he even yelled “Testing 1-2-3, hi David!” into the microphone. You could tell he had a light-hearted attitude, and a sense of humor. Once we got into it, we first asked him about his family dynamic and where he was born. We originally created a list of questions to guide us through the interview, but once we got a conversation going, the list became unnecessary. The interview had a natural flow, similar to your everyday conversation. Around ten minutes into the interview, we were interrupted by a man who worked at the Barnes and Nobles who Ali actually knew. They greeted each other and exchanged a few words. Through this interaction, along with what we learned in the interview, it was clear that Ali had created friendships with many people in Harrisonburg. If you said his name to anyone, many would probably know who he was. As the interview went on it was clear that he enjoyed telling his story, because he had so many impactful moments in his life to share with us. Ali would sometimes mention something about his life that one of us could relate to in our home life. Every so often, we would spend a minute or so making small talk on the side whenever we found we had something in common. For example, when we asked Ali if he spoke english at home he said, “No, because my dad didn’t want us to forget our culture.” Since Andriana had a Thai mother, she noted that she also didn’t speak english at home, because her mother didn’t want her to lose the language being an Asian-American. Ali’s ease with telling his story was contagious. The more he would speak, the more comfortable we felt asking him questions. The interview ran for about 48 minutes. Once the microphone was off, we had a small conversation with him about his current soccer team before he left. In this way, it is clear that we took a strong but relaxing approach to this interview. We can both say, that his story was eye-opening and we enjoyed being able to hear it.

Departure Findings/Questions:

Ali’s departure story was fairly intense. Him and his four brothers at the time, were born in Tabriz, Iran. The family was made up of 5 boys, his mom and his dad. He noted that he was only in second grade when him and his family had to leave Iran. We questioned the word “had,” because in many immigrant stories, the family wants to leave their home country. This was not the case for Ali, and he explained that the primary “push” factor was that,

“My dad was on death row because he was a political figure. And since I’m Kurd, Kurdish people, we don’t have our own country, so he spoke out against the government and they caught him. And then, in Iran, if you’re on death row in Holidays they let you go back home to visit the family before, you know. And my dad decided just to all run away. And so we left.”

We were interested in how this process felt because he was so young. He explained that because he was so young, he had no idea what was going on and was just doing what he was told. After fleeing Iran, the departure only became more difficult. Ali and his family couldn’t use any of their vehicles to leave because that would draw attention; they also couldn’t use their passports. There only option was to leave on foot; so Ali, with his little brother in his arms and his family following ran through the mountains to Turkey. We couldn’t imagine having to go through something like this at a young age, but Ali with a lighthearted attitude said,

“we were getting chased by the government. And all I remember is running and getting shot at. So that was that. It was fun.”

Once they arrived in Turkey, he mentioned that things didn’t get any better due to the backlash that Kurdish people received from Turks. Although the context of reception was rather negative; Ali and his family settled there for two and a half years. During this time period, Ali and his brothers weren’t allowed to attend school due to the fact that they were Kurds. When we asked him what he did for the two and a half years, he indicated that there wasn’t really much that they could do. He noted that,

“everywhere we went we were labeled as a Kurd, we couldn’t work because we were Kurd. So we couldn’t have a job. And working wise, I was shining shoes, like polishing shoes. So that’s what I did. Stole gum, stole cigarettes; sold em. So yeah, that was Turkey.”

Although he and his brothers couldn’t work and go to school, he did mention that his parents were able to find work through small Kurdish establishments in Turkey. Besides the shoe polishing, his dad was able to get a job as a translator for the time being. Turkey would be Ali and his families last destination before their departure to America. While the description was slightly vague, Ali told us that because his father worked against the Iranian government the U.N. acknowledged that their family needed help finding a place to settle, and fleeing from the perpetual Kurdish backlash. We asked Ali how he and his family decided to choose America over other possible countries to come to, and he said,

“Well we didn’t have an option. The UN is like a lottery. We picked it and the US came up.”

Just like that, the U.N. would aid in getting Ali and his family on a plane and to America in the year 2000. From this point on, they would be starting their new lives as Kurdish-Americans, as soon as they touched down in Harrisonburg, Virginia.

Settlement Findings/Questions + Attitudes Findings/Questions:

Ali and his family, first came to the United States early in the year 2000. When they stepped off the plane life got a lot easier for eleven year old Ali. He comments upon their arrival that ‘a lot of weight was off our shoulder’ and that they felt welcomed when they first got to Harrisonburg, Virginia. They didn’t know anyone in Harrisonburg, but were connected with other Kurdish families from the moment they stepped off the plane, ‘when we came here there was a couple families at the airport waiting for us because the UN lets the refugee department here know and they send a Kurdish family’. When Ali first arrived in Harrisonburg there was a total of 80 Kurdish families within the city for them to connect with. The Kurdish community, along with other factors made life smoother; ‘I mean overall the life here was different. So it’s like, it was easier to adapt to and there was nothing to be scared of.’ However; a year after the families arrival, ‘9/11 happened, so it was even worse’. Ali was suddenly faced with discrimination; ‘for your teachers and friends to turn around and look at you like, why is your people doing this?’, life became hard in the face of segregation once again. Hard for Ali, and hard for his parents,

‘It was hard for us to watch them (Ali’s parents) go through that process again. Cause that’s like almost my whole life they went through it. So it was a new beginning for us to come here and than bam. All over again….And all these people are looking at us everywhere we go because she (Ali’s mom) has a traditional hijab and stuff on. It was like everywhere we went we would hear this aisle camera focus you know, so it was hard.’

Ali says none of his friends were caucasian by the time he reached high school due to this backlash. Even after all these unfortunate events, Ali keeps things positive, ‘I mean its life, you get used to it. You adapt to the situation. Which we were used to.’

Ali and his family soon moved to the ghetto of Newark, New Jersey for a year; ‘we lived in the middle of the ghetto. So its like there were shootings, stabbings, crackheads doing business on the stairs in the hallway doing drugs.’ However again, Ali stays positive about Newark by seeing it as ‘another life experience you adapt to.’ From Newark, they then moved back to Harrisonburg just in time for Ali to start high school. Ali went to Harrisonburg High School. Here, he was the President of the Kurdish Club and played football his senior year. He tried out for the soccer team his first three years; however, still receiving backlash from 9/11, he was cut from the team, ‘The coach wasn’t too open to Muslims. So yeah I got cut’. He received discriminatory treatment within social and sports life as well as academically. One example of this, was his unawareness of having to take the SAT in high school; ‘Everybody else knew cause the counselors would tell ‘em. But it was the foreigners who had no knowledge of anything.’ On top of this common treatment; the school had no programs to help Kurdish speaking children adapt to the different language and culture. Ali knew no English when he arrived. He was forced to learn English from cartoons such as Dragon Ball Z and the Looney Tunes, then apply the dialogue into the real world. In order to further adapt to the language, he asked all his Kurdish friends to speak only English around him; ‘we had lots of Kurdish friends and I told them not to speak to me in Kurdish. So it’s like, I could break out of my bubble and get comfortable. So like start speaking English. You know, so I got better at that.’

Once Ali graduated high school, his father moved the family to Portland, Oregon where they had extended family. It was here that Ali’s father opened the families first business; selling windshield wipers. This was a significant change in jobs as both his parents first got jobs at Harrisonburgs Cargill Turkey Factory. In Portland, they did well with the business but only stayed for two years. Inevitably, they moved back to Harrisonburg and began their first Hookah business called Brooklyn’s, and again they did well; ‘ we did very good cause we had to sell that place and open up a second place which was a lot bigger; which was Vibe.’ Eventually, they sold Vibe as well. Now, the family has a Hookah bar called Social, which was originally opened by Ali. Ali now runs Social, is an assistant coach for EMU men’s soccer and works as a fitness nutritionist. Ali is content with where he is now and has many options for his future; “I don’t know, there’s still so much to do…I’m trying to still figure it out”.

Conclusion:

In class, we discussed theories on push and pull factors as to why immigrants migrate. In contrary to many immigrants, Ali faced no pull factors for him coming to Harrisonburg. However with that being said, him and his family faced a huge push factor. There were structural changes within the Iran government which resulted on Ali’s father acting against the government. This ended in him on the list for death row, which inevitably pushed the family to flee their country. After listening to his story, we concluded that ideally, Ali and his family would have stayed in Iran for the rest of their lives if not for the push. They had jobs, family and a good life; and no reason to be pulled to America. Ali also identifies first with his Kurdish culture, and second with his American culture. Him and his family still speak Kurdish at home. Ali was president of the Kurdish club in high school and currently owns a hookah bar in town. So he is still involved in the culture of his previous country.

On top of them being pushed out of their country; they weren’t exactly welcomed with open arms to America. A little pushing from caucasian Americans occurred in America after 9/11. They experienced backlash in there country of migration, which isn’t uncommon. One thing that did create more comfort though was the Kurdish community in Harrisonburg. There were Kurdish families here to welcome them to the community and make the transition easier to manage. They didn’t know anyone at first when they came which contradicts theories in migrant networks. But knowing that there were families which shared similar experiences as them in the Kurdish community created a psych comfort.

Envitabally, Ali and his family pulled their extended families to Harrisonburg. He had a uncle who had migrated to Oregon, but who eventually brought his family to Harrisonburg to be with them. From stories like this is why the Kurdish community in Harrisonburg has rose since Ali first immigrated here; from 80 families to over 1,000 families. Social networks is typically a big pull factor; such as how Ali’s uncle came to Harrisonburg. This networking occurs in almost all other cultures as well. Many friends and family members will move if they know of people in a area. Social networking is a huge reason as to why Harrisonburg is such an immigrant hub.

In conclusion, although Ali faced many harsh changes from a young life, he keeps his outlook positive and his Kurdish culture close to heart. Ali follows his passions and leans into them wholeheartedly. A characteristic clearly attributed from his father who spoke out against their previous countries government for what he wholeheartedly believed. Although Ali isn’t risking his life for his passions, he is pushing his personal limits to what he can achieve. He owns a hookah bar, coaches and plays soccer, provides services as a independent nutritionist specialists while keeping close to his family and friends. Ali believes in being good and doing good; he truly adds greatness into the American melting pot.

Interview of Ali Barranghi

By Andriana Mesmer and Colette Toma

November 19, 2018 at 3:00 p.m.

COLETTE:

Where were you born and what was your family dynamic?

ALI:

Okay, I was born in Tabriz, Iran. A long time ago. There’s 5 brothers, no sisters. Um family dynamic; poor. I came from a very poor family. So it’s like everything we did in life was like hard work to get where we are now. I’ve been working since I was 14, no, 13. And everybody in the family has been working since then. And now we’re here now. After our fourth store.

COLETTE:

Fourth store? Okay, I guess, how long were you in Iran for?

ALI:

I was in Iran till second grade and then we had to leave.

COLETTE:

Okay, and why did you have to leave?

ALI:

My dad was on death row because he was a political figure. And since I’m a Kurd, Kurdish people, we don’t have our own country, so he spoke out against the government and they caught him. And then, in Iran, if your on death row in Holidays they let you go back home to visit the family before, you know. And my dad decided just to all run away. And so we left.

ANDRIANA:

Wow, that’s intense.

COLETTE:

So it wasn’t a hard decision for him to make, it was just like alright, I’m about to die Im coming back to my family, lets get out of here.

ALI:

I mean it was hard. Yeah the thing was him and my older brother ran away first. And then we all had to run away.

ANDRIANA:

So you didn’t all go together?

ALI:

No, cause like they found out that they had run away so they came after us. And I was in second grade.

ANDRIANA:

So how old were you?

ALI:

Six/Seven. And then, my little brother who was like three/four. Cause we’re all three years apart, so if I was seven, the other one was like four and the other one was one. So it’s like, we couldn’t take any vehicles with us cause we so we couldn’t use a passport to run away. So its like we ran, like running over mountains and shit. And then we were getting chased by the government. And all I remember is running and getting shot at. So that was that. It was fun.

Colette: It was fun..

ANDRIANA:

Like adrenaline rushing you mean?

ALI:

To be honest I don’t remember the adrenaline, I was just running. I was running. My mom had to carry my younger brother.

ANDRIANA:

So you were on foot?

ALI:

Oh yeah, we were crossing the mountain, yeah. And then I had to carry my younger brother. I mean, that’s too much for a seven year, old you know? And then we went to Turkey. Which was worse. Cause the Turks, Turkey doesn’t like the Kurds. So we lived there for two and a half years. I wasn’t allowed to go to school cause I was a Kurd. So its like two years of no school. And everywhere we went we were labeled as a Kurd, we couldn’t work because we were Kurd. So we couldn’t have a job. And working wise, I was shining shoes, like polishing shoes. So that’s what I did. Stole gum, stole cigarettes; sold em. So yeah, that was Turkey.

COLETTE:

So did you do that when you were like what, seven; you said you were there for two and a half years so like seven to nine years old.

ALI:

Basically, yeah. Well, ten. Ten and a half.

COLETTE:

Okay, and how were you labeled as Kurd? Was it how you looked?

ALI:

Language. Cause I mean, we didn’t know the language. So when we go there…

ANDRIANA:

People automatically know…

ALI:

They would know that your Kurd because Kurdistan is part of Iraq, Iran, Turkey and Syria. So it’s like when you go to Turkey, they know your a Kurd you speaking. So it’s like, they knew who we were. So yeah we couldn’t do anything.

COLETTE:

Was your dad and brother there too? Is that where they went?

ALI:

The whole family was there, yeah. They got there before we did, set everything up, and they were working. Just like the same way I was working, but they weren’t polishing shoes, there were other Kurdish establishments that were hiring so they were working there. So yeah, so my dad was a translator over there.

COLETTE:

And why did your dad originally go to Turkey? Did you all know other people that went to Turkey?

ALI:

No, no that was the closest. And Iraq during that time, we couldn’t go cause Saddam was still in power. So we couldn’t run there and Syria was too far so Turkey was the closest place to go.

COLETTE:

Okay and were did you all go after Turkey?

ALI:

We came here. We came in through the UN.

ANDRIANA:

What year? How old were you?

ALI:

Early 2000. 11, yeah I just turned 11. Cause we got here January so December I turned 11.

ANDRIANA:

What was the biggest deciding factor for your family to finally come here?

ALI:

Well we didn’t have an option. The UN is like a lottery. We picked it and the US came up.

ANDRIANA:

Did you come straight to Harrisonburg?

ALI:

Yeah, straight to Harrisonburg.

ANDRIANA:

Was it easy?

ALI:

I mean…

ANDRIANA:

How exactly did you guys get here?

ALI:

Well, airplane. The UN send us here. But when we got here it was a lot easier. A lot of weight was off our shoulder.

ANDRIANA:

It felt like relief…

ALI:

Yes. A lot. But the funny thing is that when we got here the year later 9/11 happened. So it was even worse.

ANDRIANA: Timing…

ALI:

Yeah, so it was like, we left Iran, left Turkey, and then got here. It was more segregation because were Muslim during 9/11.

ANDRIANA:

That’s when like it all sparked.

ALI:

Yeah and like its not; again for eleven and a half cause I was in seventh grade when it happened. For your teachers and friends to turn around and look at you like, ‘why is your people doing this?’

ANDRIANA:

Like they expect you to explain.

ALI:

Yeah, yeah I mean like that’s not even me, that’s the Talibas. Were over here they’re over there. So yeah, fun times.

COLETTE:

Alright, well I guess you said a year after you came is when 9/11 happened; so did you feel welcomed that first year you were here? Was there a large Kurdish community here?

ALI:

Yes. There were at least eighty families, now it’s over a thousand and some hundred.

COLETTE:

Dang did you know some of the families when you came here?

ALI:

No, no.

COLETTE:

Okay so it was purely you pulled from the lottery with the UN, came to Harrisonburg. just because they told you too and you didn’t know anybody here.

ALI:

No, nobody. When we came here there was a couple families at the airport waiting for us because the UN lets the refugee department here know and they send a Kurdish family, whoevers here to come pick us up at the airport.

ANDRIANA:

Just like any random family?

ALI:

Yeah

COLETTE:

Okay, so did you feel welcomed here the first year?

ALI:

Yes

COLETTE:

Okay and was it because of the Kurdish community or was it because of the entire community in general?

ALI:

I mean overall the life was here different. So it like it was easier to adapt to and there was nothing to be scared of.

COLETTE:

Okay so then 9/11 happened and you felt like there was some backlash; or so you said your friends and people were turning to you being like ‘why did this happen?’, so how did that affect you?

ALI:

I guess it made me stronger. Well, I guess I was already going through all this stuff so like I was already used to it. Like as a seven year old your running in the mountains and you get shot at, like what else is left. But the thing was, it was harder for my parents.

ANDRIANA:

Were they getting backlash or was it hard to watch you?

ALI:

It was hard for us to watch them go through that process again. Cause that’s like almost my whole life they went through it. So it was a new beginning for us to come here and than bam. All over again.

ANDRIANA:

It’s happening again in a new country when your trying to like leave it.

ALI:

Yeah. I mean it was tough for my mom. Cause she left her whole family over there and now she’s her by herself other than us. And all these people are looking at us everywhere we go because she has a traditional hijab and stuff on. It was like everywhere we went we would hear this aisle camera focus you know, so it was hard.

COLETTE:

So what jobs..

ALI:

McDonalds.

ANDRIANA:

Was that the first job you got?

ALI:

Yeah, McDonalds than Marshalls, Sheetz. I’ve had a lot of jobs.

COLETTE:

Jobs, so you’ve said you’ve had all types of jobs. I guess you worked at a gym.

ALI:

Well, I used to work out, but the thing is I’m an independent personal trainer. So I go to your gym, I don’t work at a specific gym. So I do my own pricing, they don’t do my pricing for me.

COLETTE:

Okay and when you first got here, what jobs did your parents have?

ALI:

Cargill

COLETTE:

What was it?

ALI:

Cargill, the turkey factory. Cause like to be honest when a foreigner come here, they don’t have any options to go anywhere else, as soon as they get here…

ANDRIANA:

Whatever can get you the money

ALI:

Not even that, it’s like the people around here, they stay to themselves. So if there’s a good job they don’t tell them. They take them to the shitty establishment and bam, you work there.

COLETTE:

Do your parents still work there?

ALI:

No, no not anymore. I’m working now so they’re relaxing now. Cause they took, what, eighteen years taking care of me so its like my turn now. There’s like five brothers, all of us working hard so they just get to relax.

ANDRIANA:

Yeah they get to relax until old age that’s what my dad says too. My dads always like make sure you get a good job so you can take care of me.

ALI:

Yeah so that was highschool life. Cause even highschool life wasn’t that great.

COLETTE:

Yeah just cause it was high school or like why?

ALI:

No cause when you go from seventh to senior year you have no friends other than the foreigners. That’s all we did until senior year i played football. And then I guess I was good so everyone was like ‘oh we’ll be your friends again’

ANDRIANA:

So did you have trouble making friends in high school? Or your only friends were a specific…?

ALI:

All my friends were African American, Hispanics and the Kurds. I had no caucasian friends. Until like senior year. Because they were all looking at me the same way.

ANDRIANA:

Yeah they didn’t warm up to you until…

ALI:

Yeah like they were all my best friends when I go there, sixth through seventh and then as soon as that happened it’s like…

ANDRIANA:

Really? They switched up?

ALI:

Oh yeah, yeah.

ANDRIANA:

Wow I thought you just came, wow thats messed up.

ALI: I mean its life, you get used to it. You adapt to the situation. Which we were used to.

COLETTE:

So your used to change now, how do you take change?

ALI: the same way. Like since my whole life I had to change situations, environments, people so like it’s easy for me now like *snap” like that I change.

COLETTE:

Okay, dang. So I guess you joined football in high school, where you a part of anything else? It didn’t have to be just in school.

ALI:

I was president of the Kurdish Club. I got cut for soccer Freshman, Sophomore…let David know; Freshman, Sophomore, and Junior year got cut.

ANDRIANA:

You got cut, why?

ALI:

The coach wasn’t too open to Muslims. So yeah I got cut.

ANDRIANA:

Wow that’s insane.

COLETTE:

Were you goalie in high school?

ALI:

Yeah my entire life. And then I got cut but then several years later I had two professional tryouts. Like I’m saying that throws you off. Why?

ANDRIANA:

Yeah…like I got cut from my high school team but now these professional teams want me.

ALI:

Yeah and the funny thing is, is I got injured in both try-outs. So like all I do is now, well, I stopped coaching, I used to coach at EMU. I was assistant coach for men’s soccer. So its like maybe I’ll take my skills somewhere else. Bigger school maybe.

COLETTE:

Okay. Did you have any expectations before; I guess we’re now back tracking; but did you have any expectations before coming to Harrisonburg, to America?

ALI:

The thing was back home, we used to see the movies. So its like you know Wild West, Detroit and the shooting New York and stuff so like when we got here it was the opposite, like whats going on this is not the movies we saw. Cause like back home it was illegal to have American channels. So it’s like when the DVDs come everything is censored. Or not DVDs, cassette players, everything is censored. So we’ll see like bits and pieces and then we came here and it wasn’t the same and it was like uncensored, I guess. So it’s different.

ANDRIANA:

So America was like an uncensored movie.

ALI:

Basically, yeah. So yeah, it was different. But it was easy to adapt to.

COLETTE:

Okay yeah cause you’re used to all this adaptations and change and stuff. You said back home, so do you still consider Iran home?

ALI: Well all my families there. Everybody in my family is there. I mean I have two homes; here and there. But like I can’t really go back and live there anymore because well I can’t go back period. Cause my name is on the list.

COLETTE:

Really, so you can never go back?

ALI:

No, the last time I went was before eighteen cause when you turn eighteen in Iran government you have to join the military for two years so if I go back, I have to join the military. And then when I join the military the US would be like why are you joining the Iran military and not the American. So I could lose my citizenship here and my citizenship there.

COLETTE:

So you have Dual Citizenship?

ALI:

Yes.

COLETTE:

Oh wow, okay so you said…before you were eighteen did you go back at all?

ALI:

When I was; 2006. No I lied 2004.

COLETTE:

Okay so you went back once.

ALI:

Yes.

COLETTE:

And what was that experience like?

ALI:

I mean it was very brief. Still had to smuggle myself back and then forth. No really I couldn’t go back.

COLETTE:

Smuggle so like you walked there and walked back?

ALI:

No well this time we had like cousins in Iraq who came with us, yeah so it was easier. I mean it was still horses going across the mountain and stuff but there was nobody shooting at us.

COLETTE:

It was still a little risky so what made you go back?

ALI:

Grandparents. My mother wanted to see them because she hadn’t seen them since, what, ‘97 so she had to go see her parents.

COLETTE:

Has you grandparents or family there ever come visit you over here?

ALI:

They cant. They can’t cause US and Iran don’t get along.

COLETTE:

So they can’t leave at all?

ALI:

We can go visit them but they can’t come here. And then you have to apply for a bunch of crap for them to come here and it takes, what, its been taking like eighteen/nineteen years.

ANDRIANA:

So it’s not worth it.

ALI:

No, no. Cause we applied for it in 2002, no I lied, 2004 we became a citizen. And since then we’ve been waiting on paperwork.

ANDRIANA:

You’re still waiting?

ALI:

Oh yeah, cause US and Iran don’t get along. We’re not best friends. So they can’t come here.

COLETTE:

Okay. You said mostly your mom and her parents, how often does she talk to them like on the phone and stuff?

ALI:

Well, she could go back because she didn’t keep my dads last name she kept her own. So she could go back.

COLETTE:

Oh okay so she has no connection technically to your dad because your dad is the one that was banned.

ALI:

Basically, yeah. Cause I have the same last name. Only my younger brother could go because times have changed so they’re not going to take a little kid and put him in jail. So its like those two could go back. But I can’t go back.I haven’t seen my grandparents since 2004.

COLETTE:

Okay, its 2018 now.

ALI:

Well yeah, ‘19 almost. Next month.

ANDRIANA:

You just made me think of the New Year.

ALI:

I know Christmas in two weeks.

ANDRIANA:

Okay so digging into, I want to know, do you practice any religion currently? Or did you?

ALI:

The thing is, my family is Muslim, we practices Islam my whole life. The thing is I see myself as just do good to people. Cause I see religion as something to hold you back, to keep you in control.

ANDRIANA:

So you don’t have a very specific belief?

ALI:

No, I believe in everything.

ANDRIANA:

I agree, I have like the exact same belief.

ALI:

As long as you have a good heart. I treat people nice. Thats how I see it. And believe in something. So I believe in God. Thats it.

COLETTE:

So you said your whole family is Muslim..

ALI:

Yes.

COLETTE:

So when did you…well, so you don’t practice anymore, right?

ALI:

I mean, to be honest nobody in the family really still does, like they don’t practice. My parents have been mellow since the beginning, they were never forcing us. Cause the more strict you are the more idiot you become later in life, you know?

ANDRIANA:

Yeah that’s true, that’s a good mentality to have.

ALI:

So its like my dad was very mellow, he gave us the opportunity to decide what we wanted.

ANDRIANA:

Thats nice.

ALI:

Oh yeah, cause he gave us the option. He’s like this, this cause like my dad went to school for religion so like he got his masters and everything.

COLETTE:

Okay, so he’s aware of everything, okay.

ALI:

He’s aware of everything. He teaches, he was very mellow about it so its like, ‘you guys are grown make your own decisions’

ANDRIANA:

And do what you want to do…

ALI:

Yeah. Cause like I’m not forcing you to one thing.

COLETTE:

Okay, and then what about language when you came here? Did you all know any English?

ALI:

No, like all we knew was ‘ABC’ and then when we came here; I don’t know have you heard of Dragon Ball Z?

COLETTE:

No.

ANDRIANA:

I have, yes.

ALI:

That’s how I learned my English.

COLETTE:

Dragon Ball Z?

ANDRIANA:

You ever heard of that?

COLETTE:

No…

ANDRIANA:

Did you have the actually ball that you can throw?

ALI:

No, no I didn’t but I’m saying like that’s how I learned my English.

ANDRIANA:

Did you watch the show?

ALI: Yeah cause like that’s how I learned English. The Looney Tunes.

ANDRIANA: That was like your first learning of the language, Dragon Ball Z?

ALI:

Well we used to watch cartoons but not when we got here so like that’s all that was on TV cause I was still young and watching cartoons. That’s how I learned my English. By watching cartoons.

ANDRIANA:

So did you just base it off that and just used that in the real world?

ALI:

Yeah, yeah and just used that. Cause like we had lots of Kurdish friends and I told them not to speak to me in Kurdish. So it’s like, I could break out of my bubble and get comfortable. So like start speaking English. You know, so I got better at that.

COLETTE:

Did the Harrisonburg schools, did they have anything to help you?

ALI:

No, it was shit.

COLETTE:

Okay so you were forced to just use English for like Math and like all these classes you had to take in English.

ALI:

Yeah Harrisonburg schools were stupid. It’s like I didn’t know I had to take the SAT until like a year after I graduated.

COLETTE:

Oh my gosh, okay.

ALI:

No, yeah cause they weren’t telling any foreigners, they don’t tell you anything.

ANDRIANA:

Yeah they want you to figure it your on your own.

ALI:

No, not even that. Everybody else knew cause the counselors would tell ‘em. But it was the foreigners who had no knowledge of anything. So they didn’t tell us anything.

ANDRIANA:

So they subject you basically.

ALI:

Yeah, cause Harrisonburg is a very closed minded city, so everybody in the city..

ANDRIANA:
Yeah, is it still do you think?

ALI:

Some parts.

ANDRIANA:

But do you think it’s gotten, is the school system specifically better?

ALI:

It’s still shit.

ANDRIANA:

…Still shit, damn.

ALI:

Cause I had to tell my younger brother who is in high school now to take the PSAT. And he took it. Cause the counselor didn’t tell him. They still don’t. They still see you as an immigrant. Even though, he was born here. So like they still see you as a different person. They don’t consider you as one of them. Even though like this whole nation was once where immigrants came and started this country.

ANDRIANA:

Yeah I was about to say, we made this country.

ALI:

It’s a melting pot, it’s a melting pot of like every other culture around this world. The Asians came for the railroad, the Irish.

ANDRIANA:

Yeah, where would we be..

ALI:

The Italians. For real.

COLETTE:

Well I guess, your family has like businesses and stuff…

ANDRIANA:

Oh yeah…when did that all start up like how did the idea come up?

ALI:

Well my dad first started up with a windshield business when we lived in Oregon.

COLETTE:

So you lived in Oregon?

ALI:

Yeah, Portland. Well, we we lived, we lived around. We lived in Harrisonburg then to Newark New Jersey. We lived in the ghetto for a whole year. Like it was terrible.

COLETTE:

Yeah Newark is terrible.

ALI:

And we lived in the middle of the ghetto. So its like there were shootings, stabbings, crackheads doing business on the stairs in the hallway doing drugs.

COLETTE:

Yeah Newark was a murder capital.

ALI:

So it’s like, I was eighth grade. Still another life experience you adapt to, so that was that. And then we, my dad, if we would have stayed there we would have been very wealthy.

ANDRIANA:

If you stayed in Newark.

COLETTE:

Why?

ALI:

Business opportunity. So much, so much. But the thing was my dad moved back because of us so we wouldn’t get affiliated with gang members. And that’s what all our apartments were. So it’s like, it was like one two three. The apartment we lived in was affiliated with the Bloods and then right across the street it was the Crips. So it’s like everyday was shooting in the roads and stuff. So it’s like you couldn’t really go out and do anything and there was no school buses in New Jersey so we had to walk to school. Other than transit bus. But transit bus like you have to pay for it so it’s like, we’ll just walk. So it was like, what, five miles a day. Back and forth. Walking. And like seeing people get jumped and fights. Normal stuff.

COLETTE:

Normal stuff. Right.

ALI:

Well to me it is.

ANDRIANA:

Do people like, did you get any backlash there?

ALI:

Not really.

ANDRIANA:

Because there’s just so much more going on.

ALI:

Not even that cause our parents, like, raised us better. So it’s like we had friends who were Kurds as well, but they were getting affiliated with it but we just like step back. So its like you guys do your own thing we’re gonna stay home and play video games. And not affiliate with you all.

ANDRIANA:

Good idea, yeah.

ALI:

So yeah, that was life there. We moved back here, we moved back here my Freshman year. High school. Graduated high school and then my dad decided to move to Oregon because we had family there. We lived in Portland. So my dad opened up a windshield business. That did well, but the weather was terrible. Because like what you have two years of no rain. It’s all sun. And then the rest is live all freezing rain. So it’s like we moved back, my dad opened up his first Hookah bar. It was called Brooklyn’s, downtown. We did well. Well we did very good cause we had to sell that place and open up a second place which was a lot bigger; which was Vibe. Vibe was doing well, and then we sold it. And then when we sold it not even a year they had to shut down.

ANDRIANA:

Why?

ALI:

Well the shooting happened, somebody died in there. So the shooting, somebody got killed. The thing I noticed is that every business we had, after we sold it, they just crumbled. I don’t know why.

ANDRIANA:

Like any business that started behind you?

ALI:

Yeah, cause like, we sold the business to them so they tried to continue it. I guess because of the culture, cause hookah is part of our culture. So it’s like, if you have no knowledge of it..

ANDRIANA:

You’re not gonna thrive in it?

ALI:

Yeah, it’s like opening a Mexican restaurant, but like, all the cooks are Asian. You know? It’s not gonna succeed, because you have no laws of culture, so you’re just out there blind.

ANDRIANA:

Yeah.

ALI:

The same thing with Vibe, doing great and then we sold it, bam, dude like less than six months, almost a year, opened, and then closed down.

COLETTE:

Who did you sell it to?

ALI:

It was a Caucasian dude.

COLETTE:

Okay

ALI:

Yeah, and then I opened the one right on Neff besides,

ANDRIANA:

Social?

ALI:

Yeah, Social. I opened that place up, cause my dad wanted nothing to do with it. So I was like, I’ll open one up. Just to fix our name, because everybody used to think Vibe was still us. So, I opened the place up to fix our name, and then my dad out of nowhere decided to come out of retirement. He’s at the store working too, so it’s like, I let everybody think he’s the owner so nobody comes to me, he deals with it. I just deal with the paperwork

ANDRIANA:

He does all the dirty work?

ALI:

Well, it’s not really dirty work when I do everything else, behind the books, you know what I’m saying?

ANDRIANA:

Yeah, so he just deals with the people in the front?

ALI:

Yes! The needy people

ANDRIANA:

Yeah the people who need everything right then and there.

ALI:

The ones that come in who are very needy, I’m like, “pops go ahead, you got it.”

ANDRIANA:

“I’ll stay back here”

ALI:

I’ll stay behind the bar.

COLETTE:

So you run the bar, and you’re also an athletic trainer?

ALI:

Okay, I run the bar, i’m the assistant coach, was doing it together, and on the side I was doing personal training, and I’m also a fitness nutritionist. So it’s like three jobs.

COLETTE:

Okay, are you still an EMU assistant coach?

ALI:

No, season’s over, and like I said; I’m probably not going back, cause maybe, I don’t know, I’ll go somewhere else.

ANDRIANA:

Do something else, yeah!

ALI:

Go to a different school, something?

COLETTE:

Go to a different school and leave Harrisonburg? Or go to a different school in this area?

ALI:

In this area, or maybe leave. I don’t know, there’s still so much to do. I haven’t decided. I’m not going to New Jersey, because I’m qualified for the Red Bulls soccer team, youth team. So I can apply to that. I already talked to someone, that said I have an 80% chance of getting hired for the goalkeeper coach. So yeah there’s so much to do, I can open up my own second place, I don’t know.

ANDRIANA:

So many options!

ALI:

I’m trying to still figure it out

ANDRIANA:

What is the year span of the first business to like…

ALI:

Well from 2009 to 2010 was the first time, and then we sold that in 2011. Six months later, we opened the second place up, but then we took a year and a half break from Vibe to Social.

ANDRIANA:

So in that year in a half break what did you guys do?

ALI:

We hustled; I did Uber I did lyft, I was doing personal training.

COLETTE:

When did you go to Oregon? So you went to Harrisonburg, went back to Newark?

ALI:

2008, we went to Oregon and came back 2009.

COLETTE:

Oh, so you were only there for a year, but you weren’t because family was there.

ALI:

Yeah, I know the families here now because they moved here too.

COLETTE:

Oh so you took them back with you?

ALI:

Well 10 years later they decided to move down here. So yeah, that was that.

ANDRIANA:

I wanted to know if the businesses, reflect your culture? Do you think it helped maintain or shows Harrisonburg a little snippit?

ALI:

Well the thing is like it has a culture that people around here, so they know about like Kurds, because like all the stores we opened it up. So they have knowledge of who we are. So it’s like it opened up people’s eyes because like we have customers from Lexington coming like they have no clue, who are the Kurds? Now they know who we are, but people from Crozat near Charlottesville, they come here and they were like, there were hella backward. Now they’re more cultured. They try our food. Yeah. So yeah, it’s helped us a lot.

Andriana: Do you think that the Kurdish community is strong in Harrisonburg?

ALI:

Very, very strong. The thing was like anything we do, we’re all united. Like anything we do..

ANDRIANA:

Reflects on?

ALI:

Yeah, it’s just their image. So it was like anything we do negative look, bam, because that’s how the city is. The Kurds are “terrible” people.

ANDRIANA:

So it’s like one person could do something bad, and it would be like all of you are bad.

ALI:

It’s like that for all of Harrisonburg, like Hispanics do something bad and it’s like, oh, they’re all bad because one person messed up. The Kurds are the same way. Arabs are the same way.

ANDRIANA:

Probably anyone who isn’t Caucasian?

ALI:

Facts, right! Because that’s how the city is.

COLETTE:

So does that make you feel like you have to tip toe a little more, or you have to be cautious?

ANDRIANA:

Or are you used to it?

ALI:

I guess both. I’m used to it because I’ve lived here, but like it’s still different in a way because sometimes you gotta be careful. Plus now I’m the owner of a store so I got to be a lot more cautious.

ANDRIANA:

Yeah because then it will reflect on…

ALI:

Everything. Not just the business, my family, because like anywhere you go like, Oh, you’re Ali’s brother, you have the same last name so we can’t really affiliate with you. So. Yeah.

ANDRIANA:

Do you identify with your American culture?

ALI:

Our pride is so high for Kurdish-American not American-Kurdish, so like the Kurd always comes first.

ANDRIANA:

So you identify with one more than the other, definitely?

Ali: Yes, but either way we’re still American, but like the Kurd always comes first no matter where we go. Because our people, our pride is so high. So it’s like, Kurd always comes first. So even in Iran, we were Kurdish-Iranian. We weren’t Iranian-Kurds,we’re Kurd-Iranians. Like Iraqi, it’s not Iraqi-Kurds, it’s Kurdish from Iraq.

ANDRIANA:

Do speak the language at home?

ALI:

Yes.

ANDRIANA:

Do you speak any English at home?

ALI:

No. Because my dad didn’t want us to forget our culture.

ANDRIANA:

That’s how my mom was, because I’m half Thai. So I would speak only Thai at home.

COLETTE:

So your entire family, like five brothers and your two parents. You all live in the same house?

ALI:

Culture, we all live there, so my brother has his wife and the kid there too, in the basement,

COLETTE:

So it was just going to always be like that?

ALI:

So we built a house next to it, just expanded.

COLETTE:

You had also said that like having a job, you would take care of your parents now even though your dad came out of retirement.

ALI:

Yeah!

COLETTE:

So it’s all just part of the culture?

ALI:

Yes it’s all part of the culture

COLETTE:

You all are staying together no matter what?

ALI:

Yes, no matter what because the family that eats, they all stay together.

ANDRIANA:

You eat together, you know there’s a saying, oh, I forgot the rest of it.

ALI:

The thing is, our culture is like if the family goes hungry, you’re hungry. So it’s like we all eat together.

ANDRIANA:

And if you’re all down, you’re all down together?

ALI:

Yeah, and you all come up together. So if you see my dad struggling, I’m struggling too. So it’s not just on one person’s shoulder, it’s all of us.

COLETTE:

So would you say your culture is kind of like a community, because American culture seems to be very individualistic.

ALI:

Yes, ours is not like that.

COLETTE:

So would you say you’re more community centered rather than?

ALI:

Yes but it’s not really communities, it’s more family centered. It’s all about the family. Family always comes first.

ANDRIANA:

Well you said that Kurdish community here is very strong too, so would you say your “family” is only your blood related family, or would you say you have family outside of that

ALI:

To be honest, if you dig back to ancient history, we’re probably some way related to the Kurds here too. Because like my grandfather and my great grandfather used to go back and forth between Iraq, because the only job you could have had back then, because we were Kurds, they smuggled cigars and cigarettes and stuff. They probably had some kind of relatives there that we have no knowledge of, so it’s possible.

ANDRIANA:

So you’re ancestry is all connected?

ALI:

But the thing is none of us, like if we try to look into you’re not going to find it. Because we don’t have records of it.

ANDRIANA:

You’d have to dig so deep.

ALI:

Not even that, there is none. There is none, it’s not like here. Over here you could date back to anything back in dinosaur ages, whatever it is. Not like that because there were no records of it. Yeah. Everybody was scared of how many kids they had. So there was no records of it.

ANDRIANA:

So do you plan to stay in Harrisonburg? For like the rest of your life?

ALI:

I don’t know yet. I have no clue.

ANDRIANA:

Too Far ahead?

ALI:

Too far ahead. I plan one day ahead because I might not wake up tomorrow.

ANDRIANA:

That’s true. Do you like Harrisonburg?

ALI:

I don’t mind it, I realized I got to sometimes dumb down, because i’m at the Bar, I’ve talked to people, had conversations. I realized that like, I need to mellow down. Act like a “bro.”

ANDRIANA:

Kinda assimilate to other people?

ALI:

Basically. I gotta get down to their level because they have no knowledge of anything in the world. So I’m like all we can talk about is..

ANDRIANA: It can only go so far.

ALI:

To be honest, it can’t really go far, because like they have no knowledge of anything else but America.

ANDRIANA:

So it’s like a hey, how are you conversation?

ALI:

Basically, how is your day? Like what do you go through as you do today? So i’m basically a psychiatrist behind the bar. I’ll listen to your problems and give you advice because you’re not going to listen, but I’m gonna give you advice

COLETTE:

Anymore of your story you want to share?

ALI:

Well my parents are open to marriage outside of culture if that’s important. Because my brother’s wife is Filipino. She’s a Filipino, Roman Catholic. So yeah.

COLETTE:

Yeah, I definitely have a few friends who were raised Muslim that it’s not okay for them to be like..

ALI:

It depends who the parents are.

COLETTE:

Yeah. I guess that’s true. What about not just man and woman marriages and stuff like that. How’s your family with that sort of stuff?

ALI:

They’re open minded.

COLETTE:

Pretty sweet. Okay, cool.

ALI:

I Mean that’s not really my business, like our family’s business. So like if you’re into it, go for it, whatever you’re into.

COLETTE:

What are your political views?

ALI: I really don’t have any. Every time I vote it’s been liberals, because I didn’t care about anybody else. I think the only time I actually voted for somebody was Obama, his first term. And that was it, I don’t really pay attention because it brings negativity to my life and the way the world is going, everybody’s opinions are irrelevant to somebody else, so I can’t really voice my opinion. Someone will be like, oh no, yours was wrong, and then when you say something, I’m like, oh yours is wrong, and then she says, oh yours is wrong. So we can’t really agree on something. The way the society is going, it’s like everybody’s opinion is wrong.

ANDRIANA: Because everyone has such a different opinion.

ALI:

Because like back in the day it was a lot easier, we all agreed on something. Now a days we don’t because of the way social medias going, the news, the President, so like we can’t really agree on anything. That’s why we left Iran, because it was like that then. Because I think America is 25 years behind everywhere else in the world, but people here think we’re so much ahead on everything. We’re behind. The stuff I was going through in Iran, is happening here now at this time when we’re supposed to be so much more ahead of everyone else in the world.

ANDRIANA:

If you had a choice, would you have came to Harrisonburg? Were you too young to decide or does it not even matter?

ALI:

It doesn’t really matter. Everyone we would’ve went it would have been the same thing. The same 9/11 would have happened. Same thing. If I had the option i’d go to Europe.

ANDRIANA:

To Europe, oh my god that sounds great. Just like no America at all?

ALI:

Because half of my dad’s relatives live in Europe. My aunt lives in Finland,Helsinki. My cousin lives in Manchester, I have a cousin that lives in London, I have family in Germany and a family in Italy, which they don’t know we exist because like I dated some stuff back that was actually available. We have a bunch of Italian family that are in Italy now and that dated back to Renaissance ages that have the same last name as we did. They were from a very wealthy family in Fiorentino.

COLETTE:

Did you do one of those like “23 and me,” is that what you mean by dated back, like heritage.com?

ALI:

Yeah, something like that. I was randomly on there and typed my last name and it was like You have all this family in Italy, and there’s a dude on the Italian national team who has a very similar last name to mine and it has the same meaning. So I know we have family around and my grandfather was fluent in Russian, so he could’ve been Russian. I know we’re part German as well, because when that trial came in they went everywhere.

COLETTE:

So you talk a lot about keeping negativity out and bringing positivity in. Sorry, you don’t talk a lot about it but it kind of just seems to be a theme of yours.

Ali:

My whole life has been negative so I try to stay positive.

ANDRIANA:

That’s good because I feel like in some cases, people would have experiences like yours and be down for the rest of their lives.

ALI:

I realized that I don’t even get offended at stuff anymore. Like my friends come and they joke, they make a bunch of terrorist jokes.I just laugh at it.

ANDRIANA:

It doesn’t affect you at all?

ALI:

No as long as parents aren’t involved, I don’t really care. They make a bunch of jokes but it doesn’t really hurt anymore. It used to in the beginning, it was tough in seventh grade.

COLETTE:

When you were in seventh grade, did you stand up to those jokes?

ALI:

I mean there was fights. There was not a week that I didn’t get in a fight, over some students.

ANDRIANA:

Did you think it was going to get better?

ALI:

At the time, no. Then senior year hit I play football, and I’ve gotta sword it seems like. It wasn’t a full ride, but like if I were to play one more year, I would have had a full ride to Tech.

COLETTE:

For football?

ALI:

Yeah. Well I guess that’s when people wanted to start being my friend because people were like, “Oh Ali he’s good enough,” and I was like, “you all suck, get out of my life I don’t affiliate with y’all.” Then I turned to my friends over there, my hispanic friends, and i’m like, “Hey!” This was American football, not soccer.

ANDRIANA:

Yeah, I assumed that.

ALI:

I should’ve played in high school. I could’ve played my senior year and I was like hmm?

ANDRIANA:

What made you not?

ALI:

Because I was scared I’ll get cut again because they didn’t give me a specific reason why I got cut. They just cut me. He didn’t tell me to work on this for next season.

COLETTE:

Did you keep playing soccer outside though? With friends?

ALI:

Yes, everything I learned about soccer was from Youtube, because I didn’t get the training in high school, because I got cut so I was watching Youtube. I haven’t missed a Man United game because I’m a big Manchester United fan. I haven’t missed a game since ‘98. I could wake up at like 7:00 AM to watch the games. So it’s like everything I learned is from watching tv, again, just like English and watching cartoons.

COLETTE:

I guess you got injured for both your tryouts, but what professional teams did you try out for?

ALI:

Well, one was a Scandinavian team, that was like a tier 4 team. The other one was a division 5 German team. At the division 5 German team, I messed up my shoulder, which is still messed up, and then the Scandinavian team, I tore my meniscus. After that I was like, hmm, I guess professionals not for me. So I started coaching. I was coaching at Fort Defiance high school, and then Broadway high school assistant coaches, and then EMU 2 years later for 2 seasons. By coaching a college I realized I could easily make the teams.

ANDRIANA:

Based off what?

ALI:

The talent of the schools we played. Even like watching some JV games, if I had the proper training I would have made it.

ANDRIANA:

The college team?

ALI:

Oh yeah, definitely.

ANDRIANA:

I thought you were talking about professional.

ALI:

Professional, I can see myself not D1, but D2 maybe D3. Also I didn’t get to go to college because I had to work, and I didn’t take the SAT.

ANDRIANA:

So after high school you dove straight into work?

ALI:

Yes, Work.

ANDRIANA:

Was that in the first windshield business?

ALI:

Well I graduated in ‘06. Yeah, 2006 I graduated high school. I went to Blue Ridge and realized school wasn’t for me; I didn’t want to go to elementary school all over again. That’s what it felt like, and then I saw my parents were struggling so we started working. I started working at Marshalls.

ANDRIANA:

Okay. So this is when you start working at Marshall’s and Mcdonald’s?

ALI:

No, Mcdonald’s was junior year of high school, and then, Marshall’s, and then Sheetz. Walmart for a year, a year and a half because I went back again, and then I’ve been working at the restaurant since then.

COLETTE:

What about your brothers, did they go straight into business after high school too?

ALI:

One is at EMU doing business, and I was his coach for soccer because he plays goalie. One just came back from the Philippines with his wife, he got his bachelor’s in the Philippines for a biochemist, and his wife has a bachelor’s for RN so they could all easily work here. My older brother just graduated for bioengineering at EMU and now he lives in northern Virginia, and he wants to continue school to be a surgeon. Then the younger one is in 10th grade now. So that’s everyone.

ANDRIANA:

Well thank you for letting us interview you and sharing your story.

ALI:

You’re very welcome.

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Hannah Smith

Interview with Hannah Smith

by Todd Dubyk and Cabot Martin

We had the pleasure of getting to interview Hannah Smith, PhD. who was born in London, England and moved to Harrisonburg in 2012. She is a dual citizen and works at James Madison University teaching and researching child development and best practices for working with children. We interviewed Hannah on Tuesday November 13, 2018 at her home. She warmly greeted us and we enjoyed some tea in living room while her 16-month old son played. While getting to know her, we were able to learn much about her experiences coming to the United States and life in Harrisonburg.

Migration

Hannah differs from many immigrants because she has been a dual citizen of both England and the United States since she was born because her mother is from the United States. Hannah was eligible for citizenship because of United States policy that allow for citizenship to be extended to children of citizens if born overseas. Initially this was only if both parents were citizens before being changed to either parent being a citizen. Without this policy in place, Hannah would not have been eligible for citizenship and her migration story would be very different.

Growing up she visited the United States often, spending some summers with her grandparents in New Hampshire. As a teenager she wasn’t sure living in the United States was something that would happen. As she told us, “In that time I remember thinking you know this is a weird place. Mom I don’t know that I want to keep coming back here.” When she finished high school she decided to move to Trinidad where she lived for a couple of years before heading back to England.

It wasn’t until 2012 when Hannah decided to move to the United States. Since she is a dual citizen, her migration process was fairly uneventful in the sense that she already had a legal status that would allow her to permanently reside here. She had some luggage, got on a plane and came to the United States. One of the struggles that she did encounter with her dual citizen status was the difficulty in maintaining a presence in two countries. As she describes when she first moved here:

Living straddling two places in terms of possessions. So I, When I came here [it was] with a suitcase. That has evolved. For a number of years when I was first here. I didn’t have the things of my life that were meaningful to me. Or even some of my clothes or filing system. And so eventually I went back. And so, I have stuff at my mom’s and I packed up and shipped a bunch of boxes.

This is something that Hannah still deals with today. She would still like to live in England again someday which complicates the decision of what to bring over from England and what to leave behind.

The reasons for Hannah coming to Harrisonburg are similar to those for many immigrants, a family network and employment opportunity. Hannah first learned about Harrisonburg because of a cousin who is a professor at JMU. Family networks are a common pull factor for many immigrants. It has become an even stronger factor in the United States since the passage of the Hart-Celler Act of 1965. This legislation made family based immigration the primary factor in determining who could come here. While Hannah already had the legal ability to come the United States, without family here it is unlikely she would have ever moved to Harrisonburg specifically.

Another reason she came here was employment opportunities related to JMU. Prior to coming to Harrisonburg Hannah had been working with children and young adults, specifically underserved populations of children and teens. She found that approaches taken by newly appointed President Alger resonated with her and her interest in applying research to creating policy for how to best serve and help children and young adults.

Membership

When immigrants go to a new country, there are two borders that exist. The first is the territorial or geographic border, crossing this border is the physical act of entering the country. The second border that exists is the internal border of citizenship. The process of becoming a citizen is not the easiest task; it involves collecting legal documents, filling out bureaucratic forms, fees, and an investment of time. Hannah, being the daughter of an American citizen, received citizenship at birth despite being born in England. So when she moved here she had already crossed the internal border. The benefits of already being a part of that inner group has not been lost on Hannah. When asked about when she realized that her dual citizenship was a unique situation she relayed to us:

The magnitude of that position didn’t really hit me until I was here and started to see how much people go through when they don’t have that. So, I left London because I wanted to. Not because I needed to. Not because I was running away from anything. Not because I was in any of the number of challenging or adverse situations that most, many people who immigrate are, whether that’s just a purely economic one or otherwise. And so realizing what a big deal it is, no one’s gonna hassle me about being here in the slightest. I’m already at benefit because I’m middle class, white, and educated so even if I didn’t have a passport, it would be a lot easier for me. It is a lot easier for me. Regardless of whether people know my, my citizenship.

This doesn’t necessarily mean that she is viewed the same as a native local, her accent is a constant badge of her foreign-ness. Hannah has felt welcome and well received in Harrisonburg, even staying here longer than she expected because she enjoys the area and also met her husband here. Even as she begins to feel more connected to the area and more at home, she is reminded frequently that she is a foreigner because of her accent. Hannah describes:

My English accent is something that is pointed out here. And it is never, obviously pointed out in England. And so I am made aware of my Englishness. You know I can phone LD&B insurance and speak to Rebecca and know that she’ll know who I am because she’ll remember my voice for example or meet people a couple of times and they go oh yeah I remember you and I say aw yes it’s the accent that gives me away.

Her accent is novelty in the Shenandoah Valley and as such piques the interest of native residents. She also noted how when she is in New York City, her accent is never pointed out to her, highlighting a difference in the immigrant experience in a large urban setting versus the moral rural Harrisonburg.

One of the interesting results of this focus on Hannah’s accent is an observation Hannah has made about the English accent at large in America. Hannah has taught and worked in some area schools with students and many students would comment on and compliment her on her accent. As Hannah explained to us:

One of the things that I noticed was that students would often say to me that they really love my accent. Implicitly what they were saying was “Your accent is better than mine.” Because people think that you’re smart. You’ve got an English accent, right? There’s a huge assumption there … If those kids are saying your accent’s better than mine, what they’re saying is that “mines not good.” Often if that’s either country accent or Hispanic accents. There’s a whole hierarchy there around assumptions about intelligence, assumptions about worthiness. None of these kids ever said that explicitly but, that’s part of what was going on. I always made a point of saying “Thank you. I like your accent too.”

We both found this to be an extremely powerful insight. The value or meaning assigned to accents is a hugely powerful social factor that carries with it important consequences that need to be evaluated. It is interesting to consider that within Hannah’s experience it can be seen how in a location with a long history and population of immigrants like New York City accents seem to be given less credence or are pointed out as frequently. While in a smaller city with a more recent history of migration, accents are much more prevalent and on the surface.

Connections

Hannah still maintains a strong connection with her homeland via many avenues. She continues to travel home at least once a year to see her friends and family still living in England. Her family will also come to the United States and she is looking forward to her father coming for Christmas so that she can partake in some more traditional English Christmas activities. She is grateful for the many technologic ways that she can stay in touch with her home whether it be through Facebook, Face Time, or any of the other forms of social media. Hannah still likes to enjoy a cup of tea and some traditional English foods she has not found herself playing up any of these symbols of her home. She has noticed that she has begun to adopt some more American practices such as the styles of clothing she wears or the fact that she will now wear baseball caps.

One of the more amusing and benign American customs she has adopted is the high five. After we concluded the interview and were preparing to leave, Hannah told us a story of how she had attempted to give her father a high five after something good had happened. He responded by blankly staring at her, moving his eyes from her face to her upheld palm in a state of somewhat confusion. It is clear to say that the high five is an Americanism not present in other cultures. This small act, while wholly unremarkable, demonstrates how differently cultures can develop in their everyday interactions, even when having many shared cultural norms and mores.

Conclusion

Hannah Smith came to the United States for many of the same reasons that other immigrants do, family networks and employment opportunities. While many of the same pulls led to her migration to the United States, Hannah is also a unique case being a dual citizen since birth. Her status as a citizen before her migration has allowed for a smoother process and given her a level of stability and security, knowing that her place here in the United States is not at jeopardy.

Todd Dubyk: [00:00:08] So, we are here. I’m Todd Dubyk and this is Cabot Martin. We are here with Hannah Smith, talking about her story of immigrated to the United States. So let’s just start at the beginning. Hannah where are you from.

Hannah Smith: [00:00:21] I’m from London England. That’s where I grew up and lived with the exception of a few years. That’s where I lived all of my life before coming here to the States.

Todd Dubyk: [00:00:38] You said six and a half years ago? So thats going to be the beginning of 2012.

Hannah Smith: [00:00:44] Correct. Yeah. June 2012.

Cabot Martin: [00:00:49] What can you tell us about, in our sociology terms, the pull factors. What were the things that made you decide to come to the states. Also, we will ask questions but if you would rather Give us a big introduction or if you would rather go off on tangents at any time, say whatever it takes.

Hannah Smith: [00:01:06] I’m sure that you have really well-designed open ended question. *laugh* I may Be slightly different from some of the other examples of immigrants in the I’m a dual citizen so I am a U.S. citizen anyway. My mom is American and has been in England for close to 50 years and is still there. So my dad is English. My mom is American so I have lots of family here including family in Harrisonburg not just In the country generally. So the pull for coming to Harrisonburg for me at that time was overall. An interest in being somewhere new a bit more of an outdoorsy lifestyle. I’m a city girl and I love that and I love nature and wanted to be somewhere where that would be closely accessible. And I also have a Cousin and his family who live here, He’s actually a professor of JMU which is where I first found out about JMU and professionally I was interested in. Some of the things that were going on at JMU in 2012 the president had just started some of his approaches were resonant for me because I work with children and young people and yet I also have this academic work that I do. I’m very interested in how policy of how we work with young people is informed by research. So I work in this academic field in order to work better with children and training people who are children so the engaged idea with JMU and some of the ways in which those that approach is being applied was appealing to me.

Cabot Martin: [00:03:00] When you say the approach of young people do you mean like children or like the students that you’re working with?

Hannah Smith: [00:03:05] So prior to coming to Harrisonburg. I hadn’t taught in university. I had completed a PHD I had been working in my professional life with children and teenagers. So when I’m talking about Applying research and understanding of how to have best practices for the interests of working with children young people that I’m talking about largely underserved populations of children and teens stay.

[00:03:37] Interesting, so it was like JMU was doing such interesting work with what you were doing![00:03:45] It wasn’t like I researched the whole country and thought JMU that’s the place for me. It was a confluence of having family day being interested in in an outdoorsy life thinking that coming to Harrisburg was actually a step. I didn’t Imagine particularly I would Stay in Harrisonburg. I didn’t think of Harrisburg as being my final destination. The stepping stone. It really it was a confluence of of opportunities and timing for myself. I was a couple years after finishing my PHD and had been working as a social market researcher in London. And wanted to do somewhat more applied. So when I came here I started working with local teenagers in their schools.

Cabot Martin: [00:04:44] What does that mean that you’re working as a social market research. What kind of stuff is that.

Hannah Smith: [00:04:48] So that is an example of what social market researcher would you say market research would be OK. I want to sell this thing. How do I sell it. Social Market Research is about OK. We want to implement behavior change we want to understand How to Influence. OK I’ll give you some examples. So gun crime knife crime among youth. you interview a bunch of youth to work out what’s happening in those Environments and how do you produce government sponsored messaging or programming that will be effective with those young people. I was very interested when the Olympics was going to happen in London. And the transport system. Well what are we going to do. We’re going to have a million more people travelling on these trains that we got. So there was a very long And detailed set of studies into how do we effectively message people to change their behavior so Londoners needed to take different routes so that all the visitors could take the routes on the trains and the buses and be in that be effective means Transport. Which would require me as a regular Londoner to take a different route. So we sampled a whole load of messaging around what’s gonna make me actually change my behaviour or what’s just going to piss me off. And so social market research is around behaviour change and understanding how do people perceive the messaging that they get. What’s effective and what’s not effective.

Cabot Martin: [00:06:35] For the government or also for private companies?

[00:06:38] For a private company would seek to repeatedly win bids to work for the government for these particular jobs. So we have an outside agency you have. That puts a bid in. So this is what we can do. This is how we’re going to do it.

[00:06:56] This is how many hundreds of interviews we’re going to do. This is how we’re going to test the messaging. So it’s whatever whatever they you would be working on possibly multiple projects at the same time. Government initiative to get people cooking more healthy food. You traveled around the country interviewing people about around what are barriers to them you could be healthy. What kinds of messages are effective them. What kinds of recipes are when the government puts out a series of advertisments, local recipe books in supermarkets etc etc that have been tested to know that they’re going to be effective in supporting people to do what the government is trying to get them to do right.

Cabot Martin: [00:07:46] That sounds very applied. You said you be here because you wanted to do something more applied, but that seems like a big world.

[00:07:51] It’s also applied in the sense that if you’re trying to help make a better world that’s one way you can do it. You. Know my particular interest is is in working with children and young people around broad education and wellbeing. So I did someone that was connected with that stuff on gun crime and we we did a lot of projects around them and you use ideas about masculinity and femininity in that. So we started digging into some of those attitudes and experiences and looking at them. From young people to have more healthy attitudes around sex and sexuality. So those are two very interesting.

Cabot Martin: [00:08:41] Kind of like different sides of this issue. You said you came here because you liked the outdoorsy element. Did you ever end up doing that stuff?

Hannah Smith: [00:08:52] Cycling and hiking. And yeah you can see the mountains.

Cabot Martin: [00:08:57] Yeah I live in Charlottesville which is just on the other side of the mountain. Yeah. So it’s kind of comforting to know that home is just on the other side of that.

Hannah Smith: [00:09:05] Yeah that’s cool yeah.

Todd Dubyk: [00:09:08] getting into of you deciding to come over here. Obviously Your mother you said wasn’t American and immigrated. Was there a history of other people in your family people that you knew coming to the US or was that something you even thought would happen.

Hannah Smith: [00:09:27] To answer your last question first. No I hadn’t conceived of moving here. Actually no really. I had come here in The summers with my grandparents as a kid. But really it’s my my grandfather Lived in New Hampshire and obviously that was very outdoorsy. Yeah I’ve had an imagined moving here. Its Interesting. So I remember as a teenager coming here And There are lots of stereotypes about Americans who you come here and. Americans on the surface in comparison to English people are much more friendly. Hi how are you. Have a nice day. They’re also much more overweight. And drive great big huge cars. Walk anyway. These are stereotypes right. But when you come for a brief period of time from a very different culture and you see those things you go it must be true. This is this is strange and this. I’m 43 now. This was Five years ago talking about So in terms of world politics in America’s position And in that time I remember thinking you know this is a weird place. Mom I don’t know that I want to keep coming back to this. I don’t know anywhere that’s not always in place right. That’s true. I’m a teenager I’m kind of getting socially minded and I remember thinking This is a very strange place. In other are people starving in other parts of the world people seriously underserved in other parts of the world. And yet you are. You have this huge is obesity problem here. I just do those sort of connections that you make without much grounding. Then I met more of my family and my cousins and. Realized you know actually good people who do good work just get bored wherever they get bored. America America’s not so bad it’s just it. Was a bit weird in its own way. Yeah. So I remember thinking as a teenager. This is a strange place. I’m not you know. I’m not sure. So my evolution into being interested in moving here. Kind of rational and kind of got. So that was the last question that you had asked.

Todd Dubyk: [00:13:01] Yeah. There’s more family people from growing up but were there people migrated and moving that had maybe influence too? Was getting up and going someplace new something that was a real possibility?

[00:13:18] Yeah. Great question. So definitely a possibility. And so I lived I lived in the Caribbean I lived in other parts of England as a teenager. And while I was studying and so and as did friends of mine and I have family. With the Caribbean and with the states and have always been interested in traveling and grew up in a household. Both my parents had traveled a lot and my mom was on international affairs and so we had people around the world coming through the house and we taught music from around the world and food from around the world and. I was just. I was somewhere the other day and I was with family and I was sitting right there with him and I was just doing something and was whoever I was with said you know that’s even not most Westerners. Can sit in that position. And I saw my mom sit like this as a as a normal position as a kid. Yeah. And people from other parts of the world sit like this. And so I just saw him do that just. Right. So the notion that the world is a place out there that’s interesting and that you can be. More. Than just where you are right now is that you have always been. And I’ve. Worked with many teenagers who are Ah you know 15 16 17. And not only have they not been out of their city they’ve not been out of the area. And they all kinds of reasons for that but I definitely grew up in an environment in which the world was there to be explored. And that was in. I was 18 when I told my mom was going to Trinidad. She said Well that’s a great idea.

Cabot Martin: [00:15:03] That’s huge. That’s really interesting with the idea of being in a household that’s like a global household.

Hannah Smith: [00:15:08] It’s in those things. Yes knowing that’s out there for you. Definitely informative.

Cabot Martin: [00:15:17] Not to talk about myself but I’ve definitely just even going from Charlottesville to here. Thinking about my hometown not as just a place to be from but just a place like everywhere else as a place. It’s possible to go to places other places are different.

Hannah Smith: [00:15:36] And you know you don’t know what’s normal to you until you step out and you don’t know. I think in many ways you. You learn so much of what’s possible in the world and what’s different in the world. And you also learn so much about yourself and your own upbringing and some perspective on. Immediate family culture but also your environment and your social culture that I think is pricey. Often wanted to do in working with children, You know you think you’re hard done by because you have to go to school. Let’s take you to a place where kids are breaking into the school because they’re so desperate to get an education in that sense of fleeting generalized statement. But you know that sort of thing. Up in some film for me growing up in an environment where there was all kinds of contrasts. All kinds of awareness about the world. Yes very.

Cabot Martin: [00:16:41] There’s so many different kinds of being aware to, what you what you think about your education. What do you think by your food compared to what *unintelligible*.

Hannah Smith: [00:16:55] If you if you ever meet people from your 50 meters.That’s Very different from meeting people. Five ten thousand miles away. But also I bet London was a place where there were people from. Oh yeah. Yeah. It’s one of the things that I find challenging actually about being in Harrison but. As much as Harrisonburg is a diverse community it’s not a mixing community experience. I walked down to the International Festival and. That looks like normal life to me. But you never see that any of the rest of the time you’ve been to the International Festival. It’s it’s it’s in September. Do you know about it. I think it’s it’s well worth it because that if you. Buy. Immigration. That’s a context that is being. Generated in order to give some support to acknowledging the value of different cultures from different places. But it means that you will that. You walk around and there are multiple languages. Multiple ways of addressing multiple ways. Using your your body communicating physical ideas about physical touch and space etc etcetc. Yes. London is like that.

Cabot Martin: [00:18:19] I went to my dad teaches at the University of Virginia. He was teaching class in London. He took my mom and I Last spring, I was just shocked by like the like it it feels so much different than New York. She feels diverse in its own way. But just like a few of the cities is like so many things are happening and there’s so many different perspectives.

Todd Dubyk: [00:19:44] Which has been your favorite (vacation)?

Hannah Smith: [00:19:50] London this is great because that’s the opportunity for him to meet everybody like the family. You asked Do I know many people who have moved to other countries. I guess a few. It’s not been a massive Massive exodus. Right. Do I know a lot of people who have done a lot of traveling. I know a lot of people in England who are from other countries. Yes. There was People were moving not necessarily in huge waves but it was certainly something out there. Yeah and it can happen. I could go again. So yes to to and fro. So in London. You know a lot of people from Europe a lot of people from Central and South America.

Cabot Martin: [00:20:44] So you were you’re saying that you were thinking Harrisonburg might be your stepping stone, and then you’re thinking you’re going to go to a different group of people and do something like that.

Hannah Smith: [00:21:03] I think that’s a good likelihood and good possibility yes. Yeah. My husband. I. Met him. He’s from Pittsburgh. Because Of some of those points that we’re talking about in an urban environment. The urban environment that we would choose it would be much more usual to be in a much more mixed environmentally. That’s something that. We both want for ourselves and our kids.

Cabot Martin: [00:22:15] If you’re looking for urban places to live Charlottesville is right there. It’s the best it gets!

Hannah Smith: [00:22:21] So two comments about that one. It’s interesting. You would call Charlottesville a big place, to me a big place has 12 million people here. I’m not saying that that’s the size that I would want. Charlottesville weirdly feels more like a city than harrisonburg because the population is the same sense. And they both have a universe yet that does Not just have different cultural trajectories for how they’ve gotten to where they are right now. And you can feel it. Very much so. And it’s also interesting that you think that where you’re from is the best place I’ve ever. Because this is also part of the benefit of all. Around the world and seeing that people feel attached, theres Benefit to seeing the benefit of different places.

Cabot Martin: [00:23:24] Funny that I say Charlottesville is like a city it’s like not even that much bigger than Harrisonburg.

Todd Dubyk: [00:23:38] I Wanted to dig in a little bit on being a dual citizen. And I think the first question I have is: Did you first realize that was something unique that you had coming up like Oh not everybody is a dual citizen. When was that.

Hannah Smith: [00:24:14] it’s a big deal. Yeah. I think that. The magnitude of that position Didn’t really hit me until then. I was here and started to see how much people go through when they dont have that. London because I wanted. Because I needed to not because I was running away from anything not because I was in any of the number of Challenging situations that most. Many people who immigrate are, whether that’s just a purely economic one or otherwise. Right. What a big deal. That is. No one’s gonna hassle me about being here in this life. It is Really a benefit because I’m a middle class white and educated so now and if I didn’t have a passport. A lot easier for me. A lot easier for me. Regardless of whether people know my my citizenship. I would say. So how difficult it is to not have that but nothing like the lived experience. A huge amount of the population they have.

Cabot Martin: [00:25:52] How little we can take for granted. In this country people give their lives every single day to be able to be here.

[00:26:04] And not just because they feel lucky but it’s a lack of option. There’s no severe threat. I was so scared saying goodbye to the. Little one the other night and I said to him you are safe and you are loved. Could started crying because you see all these people. Leads me to exalt you at the moment is the caravan thats coming. They’ve got kids this age and they’re not safe. They call stay where they are do that. They say they’re moving now safe if they come into this months. But imagine what that’s like as a pair. Don’t. Have control. And to be treated like a criminal. That’s a whole nother debate but yeah. Yeah but you’re asking me about when did I realize what a big deal it is to have citizenship. Not really until I was here. Before that it was a unique factoid to come in and out of the country because I’m also going an American possible run you know so. So I can go for a holiday anytime I like or you know. Yeah. Make it easier. Yeah. Easy.

Cabot Martin: [00:27:38] How often do you go home. Nowadays.

Hannah Smith: [00:27:40] At least once a year so far since I’ve been here.

Cabot Martin: [00:27:43] Is that do you still really enjoy that.

Hannah Smith: [00:27:46] Yeah. I love it and I miss my people when I say my people. I mean my English before I mean my girlfriend right. Family And friends and I’m forever grateful to technology 18 19 20 and living in the Caribbean. We didn’t have WhatsApp who got. A. Video from. And so this is. Something that is has more contact with other immigrants is that because we have technology. People Whose lives are still connected in a way that you couldn’t. Twenty years ago.

Cabot Martin: [00:28:51] When you go back like do you do you feel like being in America makes you look at your family and your friends differently?

Hannah Smith: [00:29:07] I would say yes. I think it does influence you being in a different cultural environment to how you. Experience people when you former. Cheer up. You mean it. Yeah. When I go to England and it gets going you know the weather’s is really shitty.

Cabot Martin: [00:29:37] I’m glad they’re back because we’re cheerful. That’s what makes me feel good about Harrisonburg.

Hannah Smith: [00:29:42] Well it’s interesting. What is our personal disposition and then we’ll watch to see. Or is that a cultural disposition. Right. In the environment. I mean I’ve before I long before I lived in America I would say hello to my neighbors and some of them that you know will get up and down the street in England and for some that would be a surprise for others. Often people who are from other parts of the world that’s not yet another human thing. Say hello. And then you could also say that that’s something that’s appealing about being here because people are more likely to say hello to someone they don’t know without thinking that they were mad or hitting on you. Yeah. So I do think it it lends some perspective. And interpersonally not being in London all of the time. Like the pace of life. The. Is more about this city living the pressure of of how hard you have to work in order to survive in a city.

Cabot Martin: [00:30:46] Did you feel that was there a lot of competitiveness. I’m sure also that university that’s a different. There’s not as much of that because people are in their jobs and they’re not fighting and paying all the money they have for rent .

Hannah Smith: [00:31:31] I think it depends only on the institution as well. And is a very good experience to teach at UVA Ave and to teach at JMU. Right. They’re very different institution. Yeah. So the experience of being that. The cost of living of being in the two places and types of students the expectations you know. Shoo position.

Todd Dubyk: [00:32:05] What are some of the ways that you’ve tried to retain your Britishness. Or have you found there are things that you do now or even more overt to demonstrate. I’m British. Like when we first came in you immediately basically offered us tea. But essential British. Are there other things you find yourself doing to really play that up?

Hannah Smith: [00:32:23] So I deliberately hand out tea because you’re coming to interview me. It’s quite normal that I would offer someone a cup of tea coffee on entry. Or maybe conversely American things that you’ve picked up right. You didn’t do before were you kind of adopted. That’s why I like this American style of doing. I know that my friends tease me on occasion for sounding a bit American or wearing a baseball cap. Well I. I would say probably there is some influence. From just being out of London could be partly being in America. Probably how I dress is probably a bit everyday just by what I see around me. My English accent is something that is pointed out here. And it is never obviously pointed out in England. And so I am made aware of my. You know I can find. And be insurable and speak to Rebecca and know that you know who I am because to remember my voice right for example or meet people a couple of times and they all yell at me and I say aliens is the accent that gives me away you know. The middle schools and the high schools in Harrisonburg in hard rocking County and Paige county other northern. One of the things that I noticed was that students would often say to me that they really love my accent. Implicitly what they were citing. Your accent is better than mine. Because people think that you’re small. You’ve got an English accent Yeah. Theres a huge assumption right which is correct in this make up especially your high school sentence yeah get Susie and I was I was teaching personal responsibility education sex ed right. So say hi boys. We can have sex today. So I have your attention.

Hannah Smith: [00:35:30] If those kids are saying your accent’s better than my. What they’re saying is that mines not good. Often that’s either country. Accent. Or Hispanic accents. There’s a whole hierarchy that. Around assumptions about intelligence assumptions about worthiness. Nina none of these kids ever said that explicitly but. That’s part of what was going on. I always made a point of. Saying thank you. I like your accent too. And I’d say I’ve got an accent. I say Yeah of course you’ve got an accent. You don’t notice it because everyone around you has the same exit right. No one in England ever comments about my accent ever. Isn’t it true that that’s right. And so. I made aware of my accent. Different kinds of ways I think. Different implicit meanings from different people in different environments. When I’m in New York no one ever comments about my Client. There’s so many. Yes. And there’s also. A wariness about highlighting difference because we’re all here. Making a go of it. Let’s not. Right. You know there are different though different implicit things happening in New York than they all here. I do I do things that are more in ritual but hold on to my Englishness.

Todd Dubyk: [00:37:07] Specific holidays that you make sure you celebrate.

Hannah Smith: [00:37:16] There may be some traditions. So for example my dad is coming from London for Christmas. So there are particular foods that we will make. And I will love that because that’s a food that is a is it is. Reminds me. Of being in London. Incidentally funding this is totally to the side but my mother in law late one evening when we’d all been socializing for a while. Talking about Thanksgiving and she asked. How did we celebrate Thanksgiving in England. I said that I made some jokes about the Pilgrims when you. Let me let me refresh myself. I mean a lot Thanksgiving so much I know what Thanksgiving is right then. That’s not something that was a tradition that my mom celebrated for example. So I did grow up even though she’s American and she would have grown up celebrating Thanksgiving that’s not something that she transposed to our life in England. Right. One thing that I am aware of is. So when I am in London I speak differently depending upon who I’m talking to. you adjust to different friendship groups or different types of peers or you know. So I do notice that when I am talking to different people in London I will use vocabulary and speak in ways that I’ve done speak to people here. And my husband and I have an ongoing joke that we don’t know what each other’s talking about half the time because what does that mean. And connected with other use that right. And can you tell when when you’re like. It’s just another part of communication is that the point of communication is that you’re understood. And so you know different ways of using language in different environments just like you want to talk to your.

Cabot Martin: [00:40:31] You said how people in New York don’t notice that as much maybe that’s like indicative of people in New York being more blind to color and being more hip to where people are from

Hannah Smith: [00:40:40] I don’t know. Neither is a blindness or just a the kind of attitude and a. Yeah. And you have to Ask a new Yorker you know about that. I just noticed that when I’m in her makeup and context like that no one ever mentions it. And it’s frequent here.

Todd Dubyk: [00:41:03] Yeah yeah. Here he is it’s still a novelty right for people to get in there. Whenever you’re the third guy. Yeah.

Cabot Martin: [00:41:10] Yes it is. Every day like how late if you talk to 10 new people like how many people will say something about your accent.

Hannah Smith: [00:41:19] A good percentage 80 percent said so

Cabot Martin: [00:41:29] This is. This is great. I feel like I am just totally learning what your story is great your perspective. What is something surprising about the immigration process that was surprising?

Hannah Smith: [00:42:14] Living straddling two places in terms of possessions. So I. I came here with a suitcase. Evolved it’s gotten a little vague about that too. . Number of years when I was first here. Have the things of my life that were meaningful to me. And so I have stuff at my mom’s and I Packed up and shipped a bunch of boxes. There’s something psychologically. When You know you’re making a job application in my life I want my certificate for my undergrad. Well that’s in London. Which file. Well I would ask my mom to try and find it. I was fortunate in that I had somewhere that I could still not stop. She wasn’t best pleased about it all the time. I did have some but I didn’t have my stock when it divested myself. So much at home. See all your stuff always was a strange experience because I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t live in England the game. I didn’t come here thinking that I would be Very open to that. My husband’s my husband as it happens is also a dual citizen American. I drove out. Okay so he’s never lived there but he has an Irish passport. And. Is this kind of strange. I hear enough to make it worse. You’ve been with this stuff Necessarily forever. Being away from my friends forever. Doesn’t make any sense to leave stuff there. You said that. That’s an interesting kind of struggling which I’m sure. Many people experience in different ways not just in terms of possessions but relationships. My feeling is that. If. You’re. A person as I am. Things are Meaningful to me because. The story that is attached to. Oh it’s really important that I have those records because each of those records I know where it came from. Yes or no. Who gave it to me. And what it. Because I’ve written it inside it. Oh. Oh that vase up there is really valuable because that’s given to me by a block that picture that was painted by my grandfather. You know like so so those that association with your history I suppose is what’s interesting about that question it’s not do you think. It’s not just do I have my winter jacket. It’s not just I really like that picture. It’s having having a history through things. Yeah. Meaningful and is around that gives you a continuity even though the environment is completely different. Think about people. My mom’s husband second. Husband was Sri Lankan. It was completely washed away in the tsunami. All of his photos his possessions everything that had that. His books everything that had. In theU.S. for his history he’s got. People who are losing their houses in the fires in California now will people who have who have who are in that caravan and had to flee they got everything in one backpack. Photos no gifts from somebody that was important because of the thing you know so I think that actually that’s incredibly. Meaningful to me and I’m sure. Difficult. Many to be not just separated geographically from what’s familia. From your life in.

Hannah Smith: [00:47:28] That little stool thing now oh my goodness in Brighton on the south coast of England that some Yard sale. Specific set of examples would be the. Right Thing. Oh yeah I remember that Saturday it was raining you know. Yeah yeah.

Cabot Martin: [00:47:50] I mean I haven’t even been alive for many years.!

Hannah Smith: [00:47:53] Is that right. I don’t know if you like it’s not just a testament to the fact that the things can last that long.

Cabot Martin: [00:48:09] Well this is so fantastic. I don’t have any great conclusions but thank you! Thank you.

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Interview with Madiha Patel

by John Kinney and Raven Archer

Discussing issues of cultural dissonance, civil instability, Muslim treatment after 9/11 etc., Madiha Patel shares her experiences during and after her transition from Pakistan to the United States at age 12 – conducted by John Kinney and Raven Archer

Interview Summary and Analysis
Madiha Habeeb Patel
The overall immigration platform has come a long way in terms of attitudes, reception, border policies and perceptions. Owing to the increasingly popular cultural diversity, and cultural competence engendered by globalization, the United States natives and systems are becoming more accommodating of other cultures. Further, people are moving away from the overt racism setup that discriminated upon and disregarded immigrant’s races. Things are looking up as border policies and life chances are becoming better. In Harrisonburg, where the immigrants make up 9.7 percent of the population, respectively 33.6 percent are naturalized and 12.5 percent and employed (New American Economy 1). This paper analyses an interview conducted on one such immigrant, Madiha Habeeb Patel; whose transition from Pakistani to American citizenship has been commendable. This paper seeks to explore some of the social, economic, and labor factors that have been vital to the settling in of the immigrant families. It also looks at the assimilation process that Madiha Patel went through and the changes in perceptions of immigration throughout her transition; such experiences that paved the way for second generation immigrants like her 4 daughters and also shaping sentiments among the welcoming Americans. Lastly, the paper explores the changing attitudes between the two communities involved, to understand the assimilation barriers involved in the process. While some Americans still have problems with immigrants, most do not harbor any ill – will against them. In fact, some feel that immigration is a plus for the country as it expounds the labor market and the United States economy in general. This interview also seeks to establish that, poor economic opportunities underly most of these movements as most skilled immigrants flee unemployment, and poor wage jobs in their countries to better-paying jobs in United States. The attitudes of the people in the receiving country, as well as racial relations, affect integration and come in handy when cultivating a willingness to become American.

Migration
The actual immigration process for Habeeb Patel was almost a dream come true for any kid in a war-torn country like Pakistan. Habeeb Patel moved to America in 1998 in the company of her parents and her siblings. The main reason behind their fleeing their home country of Pakistan, was the civil instability in their hometown of Karachi. The political instability was a source of insecurity, and only a small percentage of Pakistani natives who were financially capable, were able to escape to the United States to secure their futures. An added advantage that aligned with their movement goals was that the family was sponsored by her grandparents and did not have to apply for asylum or come as illegal immigrants in the United States. This sums up some of the push factors in the home countries that forced people to relocate to the United States. It also supports the idea that Africa, Asia, and Latin America have been the biggest sources of the United States and Europe based immigrants.
The fact that Madiha already had family who were already living in the United States indicates some of the immigration trends that have existed for many years. Although sponsored by her grandparents, her aunt accommodated them for almost 3 months until they could move to their own apartment comfortably. As long as they were on sponsorship, they were legal and had the freedom to seek education and employment in the United States. Her argument that the parents were able to get on their feet and find their employment provides the evidence that at that time, the United States policies of ethnic distinctiveness and third-rate treatment of immigrants were fading away. From her attitude and confident tone, we learn that the systems instilled confidence in them because they were fair to all the immigrants. For instance, she says that her father did not take long to land a good paying job which enabled him to provide for his family. Overall, the social and economic integration framework accommodated immigrants at that time.
Several factors came into play when it came to Madiha Patel. To start with, Pakistan was unstable and crime-ridden at that particular time so people had to flee the country and seek asylum elsewhere. Another economic factor that came into play was the high unemployment rates as well as the low-income earner jobs. Despite college education, the job opportunities were still limited, and the parents had to look for a country that could absorb them even for the limited wage scenario. The scenario is actually quite desperate in Karachi as there was little to no room for advancement or even improvement in the future. As she said, her dad was still supporting family back at home even after years of being in America. This situation reflects that the prevailing economic scenario in the developing countries is still unfavorable for many citizens.
The factors, on part of the United States, was the chronic and the dire need for low wage rate employment. Being a world class economy comprised of manufacturing and practical related work, it had a large number of opportunities for employment for immigrants, whether documented or not. According to Massey, “employers wanted employees who viewed bottom-level jobs as means of making ends meet other than the source of prestige” (39). The interview confirms the recent statistics of the United States Economic and employment sector. As of 2012, 12.5 percent of the immigrant population of Harrisonburg was in the employed forced labor (Flum 1). The United States values the immigrants with technical specialty especially in mathematics, technology and sciences and for that, these immigrants scoop key positions in the manufacturing, transport, and other technology sectors for an above average wage.
Several resources, social ties and legal procedures came in handy towards boosting the application and the acceptance of such naturalization status. As concerns the law, Pakistan had kept very commendable standards when it came to complying with the international immigration policies. Because of that, it was fairly easy for Habeeb Patel and her family to navigate to the United States. Furthermore, the regulations were fair and did not discriminate against people based on policies. They also favored the immigrants and increased the acceptance chances for her. On the social scene, the family survived due to its connections with relatives here in America. Without such support, the process of settling down and navigating across the country would have been much more difficult for Habeeb Patel and her family. Additionally, the training and the financial support received from her grandparents and aunt as sponsors came in handy when getting settled in.

Integration
In regards to fitting in, the economic and the social front were quite favorable to Habeeb Patel. It appeared that it was quite easy for her to assimilate into the economic culture of the United States. The interview indicates that she came to the states as a minor and started middle school in Ellicott City, Maryland. The fact that the application for citizenship was successful proves that the system in the United States was more open for the skilled labor that came from these immigrants. The economic climate favored immigrants too as it offered everyone an almost equal chance of getting into a good school based on academic merit, as well as an employment opportunity thereafter. Her Indian husband was admitted to medical school, and even after graduating, it was possible for him to get employment in most parts of the south. This means that the economic situation allowed for the vertical mobility of the skilled immigrant labor. As for her, she had an opportunity to acquire a job even without training. This proves that the labor system was accommodating and gave people from outside of the United States a chance to practice and be better at the particular job.
Additionally, Madiha’s children grew up experiencing assimilation differently, being second generation immigrants. Particularly looking at cultural assimilation and demonstration, Patel explains her oldest daughter as being very in tune to her Pakistani culture while still also noticing an amount of assimilation. Patel states, “Once I moved here just the adapting and then just having the culture shock of how everything different it was not like, nobody told me that it would be so difficult and that it would take forever kind of to get used to.” In a sense, Patel paved the way for her daughters to be able to be express their Pakistani culture while also claiming their American identity. “You know like in fact my daughter it was just so funny she came down in a Pakistani outfit like the traditional outfit and that’s how she went where I was fighting to not choose to wear that and she is so comfortable and proud of it and she wanted to wear that and it was just so interesting for me to process that you know the confidence that she had to present or to express her culture and yet I was having such a I was kind of ashamed of it.” Like to the TEDTalk with Aziz Ansari, we see this idea of immigrant parents facing difficulties that their American born children may not experience, or experience differently.
Lastly, the entry into institutions like schools and social groups seemed structural and civic, as there appeared to be no power struggles in play. Overall, this segment proves that both the immigrants and the host are adopting a new perspective when it comes to assimilation. The visitors are more enthusiastic and determined to attend schools and compete for the top-notch job positions. This fact proves that the system and the attitudes foster self-determination and confidence among the people.
In regard to reception and social integration, every area felt like home right away. In the interview, Habeeb Patel states that her peers and the teachers at the schools were extremely kind and supportive of her endeavors. Even though a few people victimized her Muslim status following the 9/11 attack of the United States, it appears overall, the reception was warm and inviting. Even after moving from Maryland to Harrisonburg where the cuisine, customs and the routines slightly differed, she adopted and made friends. This segment cites that American’s attitudes towards these problems were changing and becoming more accepting. Never once did she ever feel rejected or the need to move back to her homeland.
In regard to the relationship with other people, Habeeb Patel blended in because she had shed the aspect of ethnic distinctiveness. That is why she had no trouble marrying an Indian immigrant; as she stated in the interview, Indian and Pakistani cultures differ. However, even though their cultures and norms differed a great deal, they found common ground for their children because, at that point, their personal cultures were not a factor anymore. She says that even though they valued the languages, customs and traditions of their original cultures, they have moved from many of them and are now focusing on building an American home for their children. The attitudes of such individuals towards the American culture are positive. Her situation indicates emotional maturity seeing as she can identify with both cultures with time. More importantly, her willingness to associate with the American people is evident, as her interest was to live in a city whose housing system allows for proximity between members. This aspect proves that she has already established a sense of identity in the new setting.

Experiences
Learning the English language was also fairly easy for her seeing as she was enthusiastic to do so. She says that she had an advantage of attending an international school in Karachi where she had the opportunity to learn basic English. When she arrived in Maryland and started school, she took ESL classes and familiarized herself with the language and its basic requirements. However, she went out of her way to listen to the lyrics and sing along with American music CDs to become fluent. More interestingly, her pace of picking up English was much better when compared to that of her parents seeing as her generation was characterized by intense schooling and exposure to online and media platforms which sped up the learning process. In the interview, she says that her parents are still not as confident or strong in the language as she is. However, her fluency and prowess in the subject are impressive. This overwhelming difference between the prowess marks the separation of generations. Prior to the 2000s, the learning of such language was not as vigorous as it is in the information era.
On the other hand, her experience in school was pleasant. Even though she experienced some culture shock, she learned at the same time. The styles, preferences, and norms differed on every level and while she did experience culture shock she eventually became comfortable with the environment. Some of the culture shock she experienced was the dating relationships. In America teens dating in high school for fun was a normal occurrence, but in the Pakistani culture, it was not something that was done. Another area in which she experienced culture shock was clothing. The clothing styles were very different in the United States than in Pakistan. In Pakistan, the outfit of choice was the shalwar kameez while the Americans preferred casual body-hugging attire like jeans. However, this posed much more of a problem for her father than it did her.
As for the social and political assimilation, the American systems were fairly welcoming to these immigrants. Habeeb Patel gives a detailed chronology of the events that led to her full citizenship status. First, they scored an immigration slot thanks to the sponsorship program. After completing the required years, her parents applied for naturalization status, passed the test and became citizens. Habeeb Patel became a citizen by virtue of being a child of naturalized parents. This process reveals that during that time, the boarders were generally willing to absorb any individual who qualifies for the naturalization status legally; versus the now restricting immigration policies.

Membership
Madiha Patel’s attitudes towards United States citizenship were a bit unclear at the start, but nine years later, it is evidently positive. Leading to the end of the transitional process she confesses that she could not have been more proud of her United States nationality. She naturalized after her parents took and passed the naturalization examination. From there, she went through the assimilation procedure until she internalized the values shared by any American – born citizen. Even though she was not born in the United States, she feels as comfortable with the American culture as she does the Pakistani. Indeed, she says that lately, she rarely goes back to Pakistan as she misses her family back home. To her, America is home. These feelings could only come from a person who fought hard to be where they are. From her high spirits and her affinity to America, one can conclude that she feels American as opposed to being foreign. Even her attitude throughout the culture shock phases and the occultation was admirable and positive. For instance, post 9/11 when everybody sneered at her for being a Muslim, she kept the attitude that stress and grief pushed the people to such lengths of being awful. With time, she discovered and appreciated the diversity in the United States, found her footing, and fit in like any other American.
Many of her relatives are fortunate to be living in the United States so she feels no obligation to go back to Pakistan. Although her uncle, his wife and children still live in Pakistan, there are many factors at play that hinder her from returning, including financial restrictions and a decreasing desire to go back. She says that her father sends money to her uncle and aunt in Pakistan but that is as far as it goes. She does, however, donate to a charity in Pakistan that performs philanthropic work. One can conclude that the determination that she has towards remaining in America and failing to visit her home is a direct source of being a proud American citizen (Massey 40). As long as one feels at home, there is nowhere else to feel at home other than America.
Madiha Patel appreciates the fact that she has two cultures that she can identify with. She also feels proud to be a member of the American social, economic, and political society. Even though she still upholds the Pakistani values, she finds a way to balance them with the American ones. She also confesses that the social system has adapted her; as it has introduced new delicacies which cater to the vastly diverse population of Harrisonburg.
Conclusion
The immigration scenario in the United States is taking a new shape. As opposed to earlier times where the immigrants were third-rate and took only the slave job positions, the scenario is changing by the day. The interview of the Pakistani immigrant, Madiha Patel, concludes that immigrants are an integral part of the United States economy, which can be seen by the natives help with assimilation. Also, when it comes to ethnic distinctiveness in all the spheres of operation in the United States, most people value it less. Madiha Patel’s narration proves that the pull and push factors, based on the segmented labor market theory of economic assimilation because the recipient country, is in dire need of skilled immigrants from these low wage countries. The interview also indicates that the assimilation zone is swiftly changing, as different cultures are moving towards integration and diversification. The attitudes of the natives towards the newcomers and vice versa are improving. Immigrants are determined to overcome the cultural barriers like culture shock and assimilation blocks and are quick to learn English and find lucrative jobs, just like their American – born counterparts. When all is said and done, she feels American and accepts her naturalized citizenship. Patel succeeded in her acquisition of American citizenship because factors of economic integration, attitudes, as well as reception were paramount towards engendering a naturalized citizenship in Madiha Patel.

Works Cited
New American Economy. New Americans in the Harrisonburg MSA; A snapshot of the Demographic and the Economic Contribution of Immigrants in Rockingham County, the Harrisonburg Metro Area. 5 April 2012. 28 November 2018 .
Flum, Alex. Chris Jones and Sal Romero Jr. win Harrisonburg City Council seats. 6 November 2018. 28 November 2018 .
Massey, Douglas. “Why does immigration occur? A Theoretical synthesis – a chapter in the book, the Handbook of international migration: the American experience.” Hirschman, Charles and Philip Kasinitz. Handbook of International Migration, The: The American Experience. New York: Russell Sage Foundation, 1999. 35-45.

SOCI 318
John Kinney
Raven Archer

Interview Project
“Immigrant Harrisonburg”

Raven: Okay, so we just want to start with the beginning but before that can you just state your name for the record?
Patel: Yes. My name is Madiha Patel
Raven: Ok and where are you from?
Patel: I was born in Pakistan
Raven: Ok and when did you immigrant over
Patel: I immigrated in 98. 1998
Raven: OK And what were the reasons for your immigration
Patel: Two main reasons. One being the civil instability taking place in Karachi where I lived and the other reason was my parents were being sponsored by my maternal grandparents so it was just an incentive to kind of escape the civil instability and then move here
John: How did people treat you here
Patel: Really well. Well at least initially. The people would then. So I moved to Ellicott City, Maryland and I was 12? 11, 12. So I started middle school here so my peers were very kind, very inclusive and welcoming. So I had a very good experience transitioning here at that age.
John: Did you have any like major culture shock?
Patel: Yes I did. Oh my gosh um the idea of dating. that was yeah just the fact that people dated in school or just dated for leisure. The idea Um yeah I come from a very or at least back in Karachi, Pakistan around that time, dating was not a thing marriages were arranged. Occasionally people would like you know people would like each other but that was just not a thing so dating was a huge thing. Clothing was a huge culture shock. Food was a huge culture shock so yeah I was very shocked all around.
Raven: Were there any ways in which you would say you assimilated and your parents kind of, not stuck their nose up, but it was just strange to them?
Patel: Oh absolutely, there was a huge push back from my parents because if I wanted to wear certain clothing to them it was me alienating my culture that I was born in so I’ll give you an example. So the traditional dress in Pakistan is called shalwar kameez and my dad insisted that I would go to school in shalwar kameez. I didn’t want to wear that, I wanted to wear a pair of jeans and a pair of shirt. So my dad one morning he was really upset about it and he was insisting for me to wear a shalwar kameez so I kind of challenged him and said Ok fine if you wear a shalwar kameez, because there is a male version and a female version. I challenged him that if you wear the male version of the shalwar kameez to work I would wear the female version of shalwar kameez to school and that didn’t go to well. But It definitely ended there. You know I got grounded and got punished but he didn’t force me to wear it to school so yeah.
John: Who do you identify more with? Like Which Identity?
Patel: Oh my God. Identity to begin with is such so complicated and so difficult and then to have have you know half of my life, back in the day at least. Having my foundation years happen in Pakistan and then to move here and having the second half of my foundation, foundational years to take place here it was very challenging. I definitely I think it just depends depending on my environment so if I’m going to if I’m visiting Pakistan then I can immediately kind of click into it and feel like aww yes. The clothing I’m inclined to wear the traditional clothing and stuff but um it’s just I can identify with both identities my Pakistani identity as well as my American identity but then at the same time it’s never a hundred percent. You belong but you don’t belong it’s this strange space I’m constantly in yeah so
Raven: So how do you navigate that? Like do you have friends from back home and then friends here or do you have like a Pakistani community here that you’ve like identified with or found in Harrisonburg
Patel: So I’ve tried to … I’ve tried to kind of stay in touch with some of the friends from back in Pakistan but I think out of like 30 of them I’m only in touch with one or two and even that it is more of like a Facebook relationship like Oh Ok that’s great you know this is what you’re doing these days but I think all of my friendships are my close friendships and my acquaintances are all in the US and then yeah I definitely have friends that are Pakistani have Pakistani backgrounds and then I also have friends that don’t have any Pakistani roots or anything so
Raven: So how often do you visit?
Patel: It’s been a while I haven’t been back for 13 years yeah
Raven: Wow, so What’s the reason
Patel: I think, there’s lots of reasons. One reason, okay I’ll list it off. Not laziness but just hesitance I think that’s the right term. Most of my all of my family and extended relatives are here so my uncles and aunts from both my mom’s side and my dad’s side are here with the exception of one my paternal uncles he still lives in Karachi Pakistan but as much as I want to go back just the idea of going back into that environment um it’s not scary I’m just hesitant to do it and because I have a choice I choose not to to some extent. I will say this I did about 4 years ago my grandfather, my paternal grandfather was still alive who I used to be very close to. I wanted to visit him and he got really sick and passed away immediately while I was traveling to a different part of the world. When I got back I wanted to go back to Pakistan and kind of pay my respects to him but again there was political instability that was taking place in that area that I belong to so you know my dad immediately put his foot down “you can’t go it’s very dangerous people are being abducted” they were going after specific types of people and I kind of fell into that group of people so my dad was like “do not take that risk” because I have young children so there thing is like you don’t need to right now so that was the last time I really tried. I’d bought my ticket and everything so I couldn’t go then. Since then I just haven’t.
Raven: Wow so you mentioned you have kids
Patel: Yes
Raven: Wow How many
Patel: I have four girls
Raven: Wow and do you see the difference between them and yourself in regard to like your culture and stuff like what they have picked up on and what they haven’t, and stuff like that.
Patel: Absolutely well they love they love the Pakistani and Indian cause the Indian and Pakistani culture is very similar it intersects. They love the clothing they love the food they love the music, the entertainment. The cultural norms traditions when they hear it they are like “what do you mean that just doesn’t make sense why would you do that” I’m like “I don’t know that’s why we don’t value those kind of traditions” and we’ve kind of like moved away from those kind of traditions and norms in my household. But those like food, clothing and music is something that they’ve like grasped and they like hold onto tight. You know like in fact my daughter it was just so funny she came down in a Pakistani outfit like the traditional outfit and that’s how she went where I was fighting to not choose to wear that and she is so comfortable and proud of it and she wanted to wear that and it was just so interesting for me to process that you know the confidence that she had to present or to express her culture and yet I was having such a I was kind of ashamed of it which was I don’t know it made me think so I’m still processing that
Raven: So what was the immigration process like? Like Coming over here. You said you went to Maryland first?
Patel: Yes we moved to Maryland first. It was fairly easy. We did not have much issues because the regulations were not that strict I think it was our laws and our country I think was much more welcoming not as biased I guess in terms of what where the immigrants were coming from so it was a fairly simple. I mean you apply you know you get a response by a certain amount of years then you come you have to make sure you stay here for that period of time then after that you apply once you’ve had your green card for a certain amount of time you apply for citizenship, citizenship date comes if you are I think above 18 you have to take the exam and anybody that is below 18 doesn’t have to take the exam because it’s automatic citizenship from your parents so I didn’t have to take the exam my parents did. They passed and then and so we became naturalized citizens I think that was, It’s been awhile
Raven: So I know you said that it was a rough like political climate in Pakistan when you left so did you what was your status when you came here was it asylee
Patel: No we did not it worked out because we had that sponsorship from my grandparents we didn’t have to apply for asylum or we didn’t have to run for our lives so
John: How much family would you say you left behind
Patel: In terms of like immediate relationships just my paternal uncle, his wife and three children the one’s that I felt the most close to or had a very strong relationship with
John: Was it hard
Patel: Yeah you know my aunt and my uncle they raised me because I lived in a joint family system so it was like three families, my grandparents, my uncle and aunt, their family and then our family in one household so I mean we did everything together like that was your social circle so it was I missed them a lot when I moved here initially and then I guess with time you just kind of move on
Raven: So how did you end up in Harrisonburg? Like from Maryland. Why Harrisonburg?
Patel: I don’t know! Man, that is exactly what I asked my husband. So once my husband finished his training. As he was finishing his training. He is a physician by career or profession and he was just finishing up his residency we had decided like Yes we are going to move out to the west coast it’s a different vibe it’s you know more of our kind of feel and then when you’re applying for jobs of course you’re not going to apply to one job so he just kind of applied to everywhere and Harrisonburg was one of the places that popped up and he just applied he wasn’t serious about it but then when he they offered him a position. And just the position they offered him with the benefits it was just one of those things a no brainer. When you’re coming out of training and med school after that long as students you take what you can you know and like I said it was the benefits that really kind of won us over so that’s why Harrisonburg
John: If you could tell your past self anything regarding immigration and going through what would you tell you
Patel: Like the process or just the post immigration sort of experience
John: Post
Patel: I think like I said so kind of I never felt unwelcomed by my peers or my cohorts or even my teachers and everything in fact I felt they were very supportive. It could have maybe had something to do with the fact that where I settled. Like I said I settled in Ellicott City and it’s a very diverse area so yeah it was pretty good I think not until high school especially after 9/11. I think everybody will echo that like 9/11 changed everybody’s life across the board. And then especially it changed my life because belonging to the group that was kind of blamed for the whole event kind of like blindsided me. It really impacted me because people that otherwise were good friends of mine kind of like created this distance from me and I was only like 9th I was in 10th grade when that happened so you know my peers were kind of like my relationships with certain peers changed I started hearing like really rude and nasty comments about it and then there was definitely a lot of verbal statements that would be made that would just again were just very nasty by people that I never would have thought both those who I knew and those who were random strangers like walking down the street and it was very difficult to process that because I personally lived by this motto that you don’t blame a large group for somebody else’s doing and I so I had a very challenging time but I can see how you need somebody and something to blame kind of like maybe it is part of the grieving process or, not healing process, but definitely grieving process we need something to blame and that’s why so many people kind of went that route.
Raven: Alright so let’s talk about Harrisonburg. Do you like it?
Patel: Now I do. So I’ve been here for 9 years yeah So I’ll tell you the context right when I moved from Karachi to Baltimore, the suburbs of Baltimore which is Ellicott City. You guys have been to Brooklyn, I understand like how populated it is in just like the kind of set up of the city is that’s like where I grew up essentially so like Karachi in Pakistan is like the Brooklyn of the United States. So moving from there to like the suburbs in Ellicott City was just like “What! What do you mean the people aren’t walking around?” Because like the city never shut down right other than when the instability started happening and we started having curfews and it would get quiet in the evening hours but it was always lively so to that to Baltimore it was like a culture shock and finally when I got used to it then I had gotten married and then I moved to Harrisonburg which was another culture shock Like what “There is nobody on the road at like 5 pm” Now it’s different and because I live closer to campus it’s different but so initially I didn’t like it only because I was used to living into populated and densely populated cities coming here where you just had lack of uh the cuisine was lacking in diversity I mean the shopping was lacking and then just in general I was not feeling it was the best way to put it. But I think once as my children were getting older and they went to school I made new friends you know through other with other children’s parents so it started growing on me just because I finally had but its just yeah there’s not enough spaces in Harrisonburg at least when I moved here where you can go and meet people so that kind of hindered me Harrisonburg growing on me but once I started meeting people and nine years later like I can not imagine moving out of here it’s home
Raven: So would you say that Harrisonburg has like adapted since you first got here? Like Are there more restaurants that are like inclusive for you or places for like shopping that you feel like you can go to now
Patel: Oh yeah definitely I mean it’s grown immensely in terms of diversity and then this whole initiative to kind of bring the life back into downtown has really helped with that and it also really helps the fact that you have CWS, are you guys familiar that organization, so people are genuinely kind of in support of that so I kind of lost my thought. It’s definitely much more inclusive you have so many restaurants that are popping up that are more fusion based so they’re introducing several different types of cuisines it just seems much more friendlier and there’s like I said there’s spaces where I go and I feel comfortable being there and enjoying myself. Does that answer the question?
Raven: It does I’m glad that it’s great
John: Is it anything like you’d expected?
Patel: The city or the
John: Yeah or just America in general
Patel: Just America in general. That’s a loaded question
Raven: Did you have an idea of what America would be like when you got here then it was like this is not what I thought.
Patel: So I used to like I mentioned most of my mom’s side family had completely moved here before I moved here so we would visit occasionally you know to me there is so much hype around going to America and like it is so cool you know like the McDonald’s and like the Toys R Us. It was just so appealing and I couldn’t wait to move here because my life was going to change drastically like it was going to be cool I get to be the cool kid on the block in that sense at least in my cohort or at least in my peers in my environment back home. But once I moved here just the adapting and then just having the culture shock of how everything different it was not like, nobody told me that it would be so difficult and that it would take forever kind of to get used to.
Raven: So what are your relations like back to Pakistan? Like do you send money back to your family or do you
Patel: I don’t I definitely, there is an organization there that I feel very that I love dearly for what it stands for and I know its foundation and I’ve always I was exposed to that organization since I was like a toddler like once I could understand things I knew about this organization and I knew the guy who ran the organization he was like very approachable guy on the street kind of deal. He has done some amazing work he’s passed away since then. So that’s one organization it’s called the Edhi Foundation they would have issues over there like babies being abandoned or women being battered or children being abused and assaulted so this guy him and his wife would literally just go around the streets kind of like gathering people and providing that shelter and working in that shelter and working in their organization so they were very transparent with the work they did
So that’s one organization that I try to support as much as possible just because I know how transparent they are with how they expend their funds with what they are doing. That’s about it. I know my parents financially support my uncle and aunt there to some extent because just the job market is very terrible over there is a huge gap, income gap, you have your very you have poverty you don’t really have a middle class and that gap has just been widening until you know you have your elite and then you have your impoverished and then there is like a very small group that would be considered the middle class
John: What have been some of your favorite foods since moving here? Like new foods
Patel: Oh man I have so many but have you guys heard of samosas so it’s like those like puff not puff pastries. It’s like this really thin flat bread like very thin and then you put whatever stuffing you want and the most famous stuffing is like spiced potatoes like spiced mashed potatoes or like minced meat so you like wrap it up in a triangle and then you fry it. Those oh my God I could eat them all day. Biryani that’s like you have whatever choice of meats and then you like cook in this stew thick stew and then you have like parboiled rice and you kind of make those two things separately and then you put them together then you steam it together and its just oh my gosh it’s just beautiful another one of my favorite dishes again I could just eat it all day long. I have a lot but if I had to be stranded on an Island those are the two things I would like take with me.
John: Do you remember anything special about the trip itself over here?
Patel: Oh man That’s a great question. No I just remember being excited and I couldn’t wait to get here but I can’t I don’t have any images in my head of like the plane ride or anything, no. That’s crazy. I can’t you know I haven’t thought about it in years and now that you’ve brought it up I can’t even think of anything. I think the only plane ride I remember coming from Pakistan to the United States was my last time that I had visited back in 2006 no 5, 2005 that’s when I was, last time there and I just remember, I hated it and I couldn’t wait to get back home. I was..so when we would travel back when we would visit Pakistan we would go for the whole summer so you’d go from like school’s closed from June to like August so you’re spending your whole summer there. Initially it was fun but as I got older I did not want to be away from home that long. So that’s one plane ride I do remember It was the most turbulent plane ride. Over the Atlantic is never fun but it was so turbulent that everybody’s food had fallen off and people had gotten their clothes dirty so that’s the one I remember and I was like “I don’t want to get on that plane again”. So yeah.
Raven: So do you remember like what happened when you got here? You just moved in with your family that was here? And then how long did you stay with them until you guys kind of separated
Patel: Exactly so actually when I moved here to Maryland my mom’s sister was the one who kind of supported us. Initially when we moved in my dad was out looking for jobs every single day. He was lucky and blessed in a sense that he was able to find a job right away. As soon as I think we stayed with my aunt for about 2 to 2 ½ months. Both of my parents were very motivated to like we want to be on their own. We don’t want to have, excuse me, this um not only like not be a burden on anybody also not like so anybody would ever say that, “oh we did you a favor” kind of a deal. You know like you only welcome for so long.
Raven: like indebted to
Patel: Exactly even if it’s family it’s just people will only tolerate you for so long. Yeah we moved there we stayed with them for 2 ½ – 3 months then we moved out into our own apartment. And yeah
John: Do you remember your first friend?
Patel: Oh my gosh it was these three girls, Sajel, Ima and Michelle. They were just they introduced me to pop music and bought me my first CD to Backstreet Boys which I loved and worshipped. It was just so awesome. They kind of like helped me like figure out and navigate things “This is what you do, this is what you don’t do” so it was really nice. They would always save a spot for me at lunch and make sure I was just kind of getting situated into my new environment really well. So yeah they were awesome yeah. I’m kind of in touch with them but I keep telling myself that I need to make a genuine effort and like, write a personal letter and kind of like “Hey how’s life you by the way you were such a, you played such an important role in helping me transition into this new environment. And yeah
Raven: What do you think the transition would have been like if you didn’t have like friends that like kind of gravitated towards you from the beginning
Patel: Oh I’m sure it would have been horrible I mean it was so difficult to begin with right even when you have that help it so difficult to get used to the food even the water taste different right like everything taste different it’s hard to sleep Every you notice and observe every single thing that’s around you so If I would not have had those individuals from teachers to certain friends that I made I think I would have had definitely much of a more challenging time and I know it sounds funny to call it trauma but there’s definitely some sort, to some extent, there’s trauma involved that takes a very long time for you to heal from because of not only the cultural difference but like even ideologies and just the way people approach things and practice you know basic etiquette it’s different. You know so yeah
John: Any problems from like learning the language or before
Patel: Um a little bit. So when the kind of school I went to a private school in Karachi Pakistan and it was a British based system so you were taught English and you had to like speak and do everything in English so it gave me that introduction sort of right but then at the same time when I was going home I wasn’t speaking in English I was speaking in Urdu and then another like a not a tribal language but like a specific area where my grandparents had immigrated from so like a couple of generations we were all immigrants in that sense but so I was not doing that English primarily but once I moved here the ESL classes helped a lot back in the day they used to be called ESOL or something or at least in Maryland. So they helped but it’s still one thing learning it and just getting really used to it right because you have to learn to think in English and comprehend in English and like navigate in English so it took a while there were definitely times where even like so like the Backstreet Boys CD that actually really helped for me it used to come with the lyrics so I would play it and just read it and learn it you kind of mimic it right and you practice it that way so that was very helpful it took a while but I got it and that program helped and yeah everybody did their part in kind of like
Raven: Do you think you had a easier time learning than like your parents?
Patel: So my parents my dad did not have too difficult of a time other than just like the cultural parts of communicating in English right like certain things imply certain things right like there’s literal meaning and then there’s like what’s implied when you say something like that so he definitely had a challenging time but I think he’s learned to we all learned together My mom had very low confidence in communicating with it until this day. She’ll, she understands it like the basic communication she understands it and then she’ll communicate like with my children right so she’ll communicate with her grandkids in it but again it’s very basic but when it comes to like being outside and like really taking it she won’t communicate it because of just this she’s conscience about it she’s very self-conscience about it that people will think that what she is saying is not going to make sense and that it is somehow its going to be like aww that poor woman that kind of thing so she avoids situations where she has to put in that position to communicate in English.
John: Was there ever any other like any other country considered for the immigration do you know of that
Patel: No I don’t think we would have moved well I don’t know how bad it would have gotten for my dad right, at that point for him to stay but I don’t think at that point my parents were considering moving to another country they were considering moving to another part of the city which my grandparents were not in favor of at all and if just the way the cultural or the traditions are that you listen it’s like you listen to what your elders say so I think that’s one of the reasons my parents my dad didn’t push it with my grandparents and his thing was well okay we’re going to move out of the country that way my children have better opportunities and we can avoid we can get away from this political instability which was impacting them too but they were able to move past it especially my grandparents because they had already experienced it and they were kind of immune to the instability when they were living in India before Pakistan was created because Pakistan used to be part of India and then in 1947 they separated that’s when my grandparents immigrated to Pakistan because they were dealing with discrimination religious discrimination so
John: You ever wonder how it might be if you hadn’t immigrated?
Patel: Oh man I don’t know I mean I guess I can guess I wouldn’t have had the opportunities that I’ve had here and because I think back there I would have to access certain things or to fight for my rights within internally you know like whether it’s like I think my parents I don’t have a doubt in my mind that my parents would not have allowed me to go to college or anything but like to work in certain areas or be in certain industries have a career in certain industries I would have to fight that not only with my parents but my grandparents too and again we grew up in a very sheltered household because of my grandparents they their intention was to kind of protect us by keeping us as sheltered as possible not realizing that they were just not allowing us to grow and be successful in our lives or just learn you know protection is not always the way in that sense yeah but I don’t think I would have had the opportunities to live my life and pursue my ambitions as much as I’ve been able to being here
Raven: To your knowledge do you know if it’s like a lot of people leaving Pakistan to come here or is it just like a few people when it’s unstable they come over or is it like a constant kind of cycle?
Patel: Whoever can afford it to move to immigrate to one of the western countries they are doing it whoever can’t afford it are not doing it. Are we at the point of where we have groups of people becoming refugees? No we’re not there and I hope we’re not going to get to that point because there’s definitely a rise of the younger generation where those who went away to get educated in the western countries sorry and then coming back into the country to kind of revive it and really lay the foundation down for a strong country, for it to progress in different ways. So Yeah yeah like if people have the opportunity to move they do it but I mean affordability comes into it because it is very expensive
John: When you say affordability like how hard is it really like as far as money wise. Like you either can or you have absolutely no chance like you don’t even think about
Patel: Like let’s think about it in terms of like a ticket right it costs one way ticket from Pakistan to here average we’re not talking about deals that come up you know come up some days like about two grand or so one way two grand is geez a lot when you convert it into Pakistan rupees it’s a lot of money I’m trying to convert it in my head. I want to say $100 is about 10,000 rupees give or take so and to also put it into context like these your average Joe in Pakistan is not making even $10.00 a month that’s how difficult it is so you save you save you save and then you get your ticket after like let’s say so many years but then you also have to save for when you come here who’s going to support you are you know your relatives or friends and stuff so like it’s very expensive so my parents had saved a lot of money my dad had saved a lot of money. He had a very nice position um job back in Karachi Pakistan so to leave that you know I mean he saved a lot from that position and to leave that and come here it was definitely a big adjustment
Raven: Would you say that he had been saving for a long time? I don’t know was it like a thought in his mind “like alright we’re going to leave soon, just give me a second”
Patel: I don’t know if and we’ve never had this conversation it’s interesting you bring up that question. We’ve never had that conversation about like how long he was saving and stuff or even now how much he saves or I know he saves I know he has investments but he doesn’t discuss it with me specially and I don’t know if its because he just doesn’t feel comfortable or that’s just him and his personality right like he just finances discussing that with me has never been his thing but I know that just the way he is he is an accountant by nature so he is just frugal. He just likes to save and always worrying about like that rainy day that might take place so I mean I think that’s why he was able to help has been able to financially support my uncle and aunt to because he’s just really good about saving him and my mom you know if my mom gets like some like monetary present from her dad like you bet will save it she’s not going to go spend it and be like “Oh I’m going to go treat myself” like her idea of treating was “ I’m going to save and if somebody needs it I’m going give it back” so
John: I know here they have like a lot of festivals. Do you attend a lot of that?
Patel: Like here in the …
Raven: Like the International Festival
Patel: I have not been able to attend the International Festivals that have taken place here because
Raven: Oh it’s amazing
Patel: I’ve heard! And every time I have something that I had pre-planned and have to leave town for that but I know like a lot of my friends and acquaintances who are help in the organizing and really actively taking part in it. And It makes me so happy to see it take place and that it’s such a focal point in this community like people look forward to the international week and all these cultures and all these communities that live here are being represented which is just cool. So no I haven’t attended but I am aware and try to support it in whatever way that I can
Raven: Yeah you should definitely go
Patel: I need to I need to
Do you want me to tell you guys about like the weddings
John & Raven: Yeah Sure
Patel: So the Pakistani weddings are like a fricking week affair. Ok I’m exaggerating. It’s definitely at least 3 to 4 days of an affair no joke you’ve gotta have like your 3 to 4 outfits and everyday you wear a different outfit and you like deck out. Like you’re going to some masquerade ball. If you’ve seen it like you’ve got to bring on the jewelry you’ve got to bring on like those heavy embroidered outfits specially for women like they go all out. And then you have all these like traditions so we’ve definitely held on like we as in like the Pakistani and Indian diaspora community to our like you know like the expressive part the art part of our culture and we I mean we go out expressing it when it comes to our weddings. So like you have a day called mehndi it like essentially like a yellow party and you try to wear colors that are in the yellow family so like yellows and greens and oranges and reds. There’s a lot of dancing and not just like free style dancing like friends and family of like the bride and groom they’re going to prepare dances and like dances like weeks ahead of time months ahead of time and there’s like a competition the girl side dances versus the guy side dances and then there’s like a singing party too where you have like the more elderly women of the family will compete the two sides will compete in the songs right and you’ve got like this it’s called a toull it’s like a two sided drum and like that’s like your instrument and then you have all these voices like just singing the songs and whoever sings the longest the hardest knows the most words it’s just so much adrenaline that’s happening that day so that’s your mehndi. And then the day of your wedding it’s traditionally women wear red but then of course you see like now women kind of going away from that but same thing you’ll have like somebody will always try to have that kind of like leave a mark you know one of my family members the guy walked in not walked he rode in with a horse like that was his entrance and like family members and friends are dancing around him and he’s riding into the horse and it’s just like an amazing show except it’s happening and it’s live and it’s right there so that’s kind of carried over to this day and even those who my gen kids or individuals who were born and raised here who might not have been back to Pakistan or ever to Pakistan maybe visited once or twice they have held on to that parts like they want to have their weddings in that manner or express themselves in that manner which is really cool so yeah our weddings are kind of awesome
Raven: So how was your wedding? Was your wedding more traditional or how did that go
Patel: So yeah it was really my wedding was extremely interesting. The guy I married so my husband’s Indian and if you guys know a little bit about the Indian Pakistani politics or at least how it used to be back in the day and to some extent still today they did not like each other they still don’t like each other but I think at least the arts and the humanities people belong are much more welcoming and loving of each more so than those who are more on the politics side. But So my mother in-law and my father in-law they weren’t very happy with my husband’s decision to kind of marry me so I had a very odd wedding like they were all there but they had like this kind of like strange like face put on just to kind of like “oh we’re happy with this and yes we’re going to be supportive about this” and even though so the day of the wedding is thrown by the girls side right so I get to call the shots and even though it’s my event and I was supposed to call the shots I kept being like pressured into making my mother in-law happy she’s very traditional very like you’ve got to do it this way and the guy and the girl can’t sit together until they’re you know exchange their vows officially and I was like what to me that was so stupid but then I had to make her happy and more so than making her happy because I didn’t really care to I was like well if you want to do things your way then you pay for it but because I’m paying for it I’m going to do it my way. My parents felt like obligated to like have they were our guest and to make them happy so it was really this weird I wanted it to very low key and relaxed and stuff and I had to like do things a certain way to make my mother in-law happy essentially so it was really frustrating if I could redo my wedding I would. Totally would
Raven: You would make it more about you
Patel: It would be more about me exactly! I would have like a Barbeque in some huge park and not like dress up a certain and then just be limited to like a space where I just to sit and perform this like weird identity of a bride what a good bride is supposed to be.
Raven: So in that aspect do you see yourself more, more so like assimilated to American I don’t want to say ideas of weddings but it sounds like from what you said it was very traditional and it was kind of like this is extra type stuff
Patel: Yes and I think that’s I think more so well it definitely kind of aligns with the Americans sort of way of doing things but also progressive right like you always have had those certain voices progressive voices even in Pakistan yes they’ve been like kind of like pushed down uh un you’re the minority don’t don’t try to be all whatever but definitely helped to be here because I feel like I’ve been kind of gotten that like sort of power by being in that and being able to say to put my foot down and say no I think I’m going to do it this way or I don’t feel oppressed right because there are different types of oppression and depending on your environment certain oppression is not as oppressive I don’t know if that even if it actually is possible when you compare it to some extent but yeah like I definitely feel assimilated and definitely feel like having the opportunity to like kind of live my way or what I believe in.
John: In sticking with cultural events we talked about weddings what are the funerals like?
Patel: oh man that’s a good one I I mean nobody likes the idea of dying whatever and stuff but I love the way Muslim funerals are that take place because I’m Muslim as well. And they’re very simple they’re supposed to really be grounding and they’re supposed to remind you of the fact that like you don’t take anything back with you like literally nothing back with you. So traditionally as soon as the person passes away you’re supposed to bury them within like a day or two. Kind of a deal So if those funerals are taken back in Pakistan you have somebody pass away you take they’re at home most likely if they passed you wash the body in your bathroom or whatever kind of thing you, you know there’s yeah I mean literally within hours you will have that person’s body ready to go and to bury and everybody just comes together. And then there’s a way of wrapping for a male body you will have two pieces of white cloth that you wrap them in and then for women you have three pieces of cloth you wrap them in White and that’s it. You wash the body. The body is washed by the close family members and if those close family members are not present then the close friends and if not close friends then close relationships so you kind of like go down this like thing. But yeah and so it’s similar over here too that tradition has stayed very true in that regard where like My grandmother passed away earlier this year and she passed away in Houston within like a day everybody all the family kind of just like flew out there was there and then we the women because she had all her like daughters and her cousins here and her granddaughters or grandchildren rather we got together we washed the body there’s like three to four people who kind of lead it because again there’s a like process where you’re supposed to wash the body you start with the head that’s more like tradition it’s not necessarily religious the religious part is to get it done as soon as possible, come together and remind yourself like this is where we’re all headed. The tradition part is like Ok well three women are going to head it versus four women are going to head it. Kind of a deal of who’s going to be there. And the whole time you’re supposed to keep a white sheet over the body. So imagine like this is the sheet this is the body here and you put your hands here you’re not supposed to look but you’re supposed to the point of that is to maintain as much privacy as possible. To give even though that’s a deceased person that they have some respect in that regard they would not like to be kind of like to have their body out in the open in that sense. So yeah we wash the body and wrap it up. And just because the way things work here there’s regulations and rules here. We did it we washed her body and prepared it for burial the night before like Sunday evening then Monday afternoon you did we got together at the mosque prayed together and then immediately head to the cemetery to bury her. It’s very It’s very simple but it’s very like I find it very
Raven: meaningful
Patel: It’s very meaningful it’s very grounding in that sense. To kind of just like let’s get it together
John: Are there any like events for say coming of age like quinceanera, bat mitzvah
Patel: No we don’t it’s just one of those things like everybody comes of age you know men and women and it’s just Ok so that’s great
Raven: Still can’t date though
Patel: Well there certain things like after a certain age like ok so I’ll put it that way this way when I was younger like my parents didn’t care when I was like 10 or 9 if I played with my guy cousins but as soon as I was like 13 or 14 developing a little bit, looking a certain way they were like I don’t think you need to play with that cousin you can go wherever girls should play separately and the boys should stay so its like these unwritten rules that were kind of there and you just understood you know just have to keep separate so even if you weren’t thinking certain ways you have a natural now we split up so that’s the only coming of age thing I know it sucked like I can’t play with my cousins anymore.
Raven: Do you think you like are different in that aspect with like your children? Because you said you have four daughters right? How is that? Like are you do you think you’re more different than your parents? In that aspect of like dating or traditional things for like females.
Patel: That’s a great question. I feel like I try to be different consciously knowing how my parents were like “I don’t want to be like my parents” but then there are certain things that I as my girls get older I kind of just like from experience Oh that’s why my parents did it I just wish they would have explained it instead of just being just like no you can’t go here. It wasn’t like hey I’m actually worried like if you go and like I’m not going to allow you to have sleepovers because I don’t really know that family and even if I knew that family there’s a chance of you being hurt emotionally or physically kind of a deal I wish they would have explained that they never explained that just they were like no that’s it. What I’m trying to do different with my kids is like have that communication line open all the time. Does that mean they don’t question me? Of course they question me that’s the point of the kids to question their parents but I think at least they are able to at least my eldest is able to walk away like initially she’ll get upset and frustrated like why can’t I go on the sleepover then she’ll walk away and I’ll tell her and then she’ll come back oh ok I kind of see your point but you can’t always be fearful of everything you know you’re going to have to let me go one day I’m like I know
Raven: Just not today
Patel: Just not today when you can pay for your own insurance you go for it girl. So my eldest is 11 she’s turning 12 this coming January so we’re definitely crossing that line right like this idea of dating. what can I wear? what can I do? I’m definitely I’m not as strict in terms of dressing as my parents were but you know I’ll tell her you don’t need to wear shorts to middle school you want to wear shorts when we’re out together sure. You know after I hear certain stories in school some girl got whatever of course I’m going to be fearful so I’m like even though I want to have that trust that she should be able to fend for herself I find myself doing certain things that are kind of kind of like what my parents did to some extent so never say never.
John: Where’d you get your first job
Patel: Oh my gosh. My first job like actual paid job right not like an internship. My first paid job was at Rite Aid pharmacy and it was like the best day of my life. And I remember getting my first check. Oh man, I spent it on whatever I wanted. My dad was like “you’re supposed to save your money not spend everything” I was like “It’s my first check” And then my mom was like “You’re supposed to donate to a charity as a thankful thing” I was like “I know but It’s my first check, I swear I’ll do it with the next one” But it was awesome I had to fight for it my parents were not happy with me getting a job. They were like you shouldn’t why are gonna get a job can’t we support you? I was like it’s not about that I just want to learn and have experience. Then the next argument was well why can’t you get a job in an office and I was like you know there’s just no winning. And again, they have very different idea of what a respectable thing to do is and whatever those are just things you have to fight and I think they’ll always exist yeah
John: That’s funny Rite Aid was my second job
Patel: Really I worked from the 11th grade into my senior year into my first semester and a half in college. That was a good paying job at that time and my manager was awesome so I was like I’m just going to stick with it
Raven: So what do you do now
Patel: So currently I’m working part time in the office of Environmental Stewardship and Sustainability. I handle the money for that office. Which is not something I trained for but I’ve learned because it’s very different in a like a government institution to say. So I do that part time and then my other part time I’m working on my masters in writing Rhetoric and technical communication so I do that and then when I’m done doing that I love working in just being part of my local community and the non-profit organizations here so I’ve worked with several different ones but currently I’m working with Faith In Action which is you have about 26 congregations around Harrisonburg come together pick a social justice issue to work on and then use like faith as their driving motivation to work towards that social justice issue. So our current social justice issue that we are working on is criminal justice reform. We’re very passionate about it there definitely needs to be change so it’s just our passion our faith kind of drives us to be part of the larger community and doing good and so yeah
John: One last thing. So how is it intertwining the Indian and Pakistani cultures at home like with your kids.
Patel: It’s so blurry right because Well first of all like yes there are some differences but you can only tell the difference if you’ve kind of grown up in the cultures somebody looking from the outside is like well you kind of where the same clothes and you kind of eat the same foods you know little bit of regional differences like its going to the south versus going to the north and the food is a little more flavorful in the south versus the north it’s like “what is this” so it’s kind of like that with India and Pakistan. But So Riswan, he’s my husband, who he grew up here so again he held on to the clothing and the food but not so much the traditions. If anything he hated half the traditions he’s like they don’t make sense they’re irrational we’re not going to do this. So at home it’s kind of like Indian and Pakistani foods and then clothing on special occasions if there’s like a wedding or one of the religious events that we’ll go to. And it’s funny because I grew up learning mostly Pakistani cooking but then my grandparents and my parents and my aunts they would do certain Indian specialty delicacies but now that I’m here my recipes the little bit of differences between the Indian and the Pakistani cooking are just non-existent now cause like it’s just a mix match in my house
John: My family is Haitian and they like to try to wear, they like to try to mix their American clothes with the Haitian clothes I don’t really like most of it but do you guys try that?
Patel: Absolutely Oh my Gosh So like A very popular thing to do is to have kameez which is the shirt and it’s like, it will come from anywhere, like it will fall anywhere from above your knees to like below your knees and instead of wearing the Shalwar which is the traditional Pakistani or Indian pants they wear it with Jeans. Like that’s like the coolest thing to do. That’s what my husband does all the time and that’s what my daughter did actually today. So she didn’t wear the shalwar but she wore the shirt you know the kameez and she’s like well “I love the jeans, jeans are comfortable”. And then just the top is just like the representative, very colorful piece. So yeah Oh we do that. We even have our music completely at this point. You have your Urdu and English within one song it’s like going back and forth and you’re like how fascinating is that.
Raven: Is that hard to like process or does your mind like, it’s nothing
Patel: When I’ve had good coffee I’m on it. The day’s I’ve not had good caffeine I’m like what can we slow down like pause! What are you saying and what are you trying to say? But it is pretty cool right? The human capacity and the ability to especially when you’re bilingual or multilingual how you can just switch between your thinking ability and the language even but then it’s awesome it’s something I still I don’t think struggle with is the right word but have my days with like I’m really thinking in Urdu right now how do I translate that into English and actually put that down on the paper so people can understand it. It’s fun.
Raven: Yeah it sounds like a challenge. Well, that’s it.
John: Yeah, that’s all I have
Raven: I think those are all of the questions we have.
Patel: Awesome
Raven: Thank you so much for your time
Patel: Oh of coarse, my pleasure
John: This was good
Patel: Thank you for this opportunity. I hope my answers made sense to some extent
Raven: Oh they were great

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Interview with Ling Dong

Interview with Mrs. Ling Dong

by By: Claire Keeton & Trenton Heard

Introduction

My partner and I had the privilege of interviewing Ms. Ling Dong for the Immigrant Harrisonburg Project. She is a teaching aid at a local elementary school and is happily married with a beautiful young daughter. No two stories of immigration are the same and hers is a story of falling in love and wanting to see the world outside of her homeland, Sichuan Province, China. After a few emails back and forth about scheduling, Ling graciously invited us to her home to conduct the interview. We felt very welcome as she had tea prepared and an assortment of Chinese candies she encouraged us to try.

Ling first came to the United States in 2008 and stayed in Lancaster, Pennsylvania for one year. She was doing mission work and after that year was over she moved back to China. Her immigration story starts in January of 2013 however, when she moved to Harrisonburg and has stayed here ever since. Ling met her American husband in China where he too was doing mission work. They fell in love and she decided to move back to the states with him and start a family close to his family that lived here in America.

Connections to China

Throughout the interview she expressed how important family is to her and that family connections are more valuable than anything else. Her and her husband and daughter visit China every summer for about a month to see Ling’s family and when asked about the expenses of making that trip every year, she replied, “…I think for many families they don’t have the fortune to do this. We, I mean we don’t have that much money to do this but we prioritize…we have to cut some other costs…to make sure we can go back.” This summer for the next 3 to 5 years, her and her family are moving back to China so their daughter, Ella, can have a chance to grow up close to both sets of grandparents and it won’t be a 24+ hour flight for Ling to see her parents. Talking about the move, she says, “…[the] older I grow, the more I realize…family is, is very important and that…would be one thing on my bucket list. So…we’re going to do it sooner rather than later.” For as much as she misses her family, we were curious about why they had never come to visit her. She told us, “unfortunately, my family did not pass the visa interview and that was a lot of work and it cost money to do that…so for my mom as a traditional Chinese woman, that was not a pleasant experience for her. So she does not want to try it again.” I have personally never experienced a situation like this one but I can only imagine the discouragement and anger they must have felt after putting in months of work and money only to be denied; I can’t blame her for not wanting to go through that process a second time.

Ling loves and embraces her Chinese culture, “it’s under my skin” she says, “I know I’m Chinese…wherever I will be always be Chinese…” We saw first-hand examples of this throughout the interview, but Ling mentioned that she talks to (and scolds) her daughter in Chinese. She also keeps a Chinese knot in red on her front door and another one hanging in her living room as a reminder of her roots; we learned that it symbolizes happiness and good luck.

Integration into American Culture

Ling had been learning English since middle school so by the time she came to the states reading and writing in English was not a challenge. Listening and speaking, however, proved harder than she anticipated. She recalls, “…speaking slangs or lingos is still difficult for me because those things you don’t get without the language environment…” meaning she essentially could not fully learn the language until being immersed in it. In terms of adapting to Harrisonburg, she said she is “…very impressed with the welcoming atmosphere and also I liked the different culture diversity [and] the groups of people from all over the world. I feel like there’s more new things going on in Harrisonburg.” She also told us how her neighbors and community were welcoming when they first moved in and supportive in times of need. For example, they cooked meals for her and her family when she delivered her daughter.

Ling worked as a middle school teacher in China. She wanted to continue to teach after she moved, but found that the only jobs that were initially available for her were entry-level jobs. She worked at A Bowl of Good preparing food until she became certified as a teaching aide.

Personal Immigration Experience

Before Ling and her husband could even book a ticket from China to the United States she had to start the immigration process and paperwork six months in advance. Fortunately, Ling told us she has not personally felt any “…hostile or unfriendly behavior toward my race or where I come from. So I guess I’m just lucky.”

Immigrating to the US at 35 years old is not a commonality among immigrants. Most move with their families at a young age and build their lives in America. Ling had established a whole life and routine for herself in China before she moved. She told us, “It definitely requires time and patience. I think for younger people, might be easier when you’re younger to when you immigrate at a young age you don’t have family, don’t have other obligations to fulfill. So you could be more focused. At my age, we had not a difficult time but quite stressful to just get back on track, you know. [I never] wanted to work those entry level jobs and I want my career back.”

She says her best piece of advice for someone going through the process of immigration and adapting to a new place is to surround themselves with people that are supportive and empathetic to your struggles.

“I just wish people who in that position dealing with other people’s lives…had more mercy” she says, “To find, to build a strong support system for yourself, to find people that come from the same place you come from, to find people who have similar interest as you. So you, you need, you need to have a circle or several circles…just to have a real life here. Stay away from isolation, really, really, need make friends.”

Other Interesting Findings

My partner and I were very interested in her perception of America and how Americans were portrayed and perceived in other counties such as China. Ling noted that they (we) are portrayed as “much bigger” and “violent”, both of which are accurate. She also talked about the difference between the school systems in American vs. in China. She said the educational philosophy is different between the two countries; Chinese education focuses on the learning and mastering the materials and learning goals while the American school system is all about ‘trying your best is all that matters’.

Another difference between the two cultures is the level of respect that is expected. She said they have much more table manners, and respecting seniors and people who are older than you is “a big thing”. Regardless of whether or not there is a familial relationship between the two people, in China you would address an elder as “Older Sister (their name)” or “Older Brother (their name)”, for example in China I would address Ling as Older Sister Ling even though we have only ever met once for this interview project. The aspect of respect in the Chinese culture carries into the school system as well; Ling recalled students get away with a lot more disrespect and have much more freedom to choose what they will and will not do in school here than they would in China.

Connections to Class

Throughout this interview, some of the answers and topics Ling talked to us about were similar to those we have discussed in class. One example is that most immigrants come to the US already having a set network or some connections for work before they move. Ling had nothing. She knew her husband and that was good enough for her. She had no idea what she was going to do for work, had no friends or family here, and did not know what her life would be like when she got here. As she mentioned before, she found a circle of friends and people that were in the same or similar situations as her to help her adjust to this new life and she basically created her own network.

Another connection to a topic we had learned about in class is that immigrants often have to prove themselves to be good or innocent, or meeting the standard for legal immigration. Ling said she felt that the immigration system is run on a philosophy of “guilty until proven innocent” or starting from an assumption that a person is ill-natured. She felt that it is almost as if the people that allow immigrants into the country are looking for reasons to deny them a visa or citizenship. She said that she also had to prove herself qualified for teaching in the Unites States even though she had been teaching for several years in China. She had to pay to take certification classes and get more education even though she was just as qualified, if not more so, than current teachers here. This idea reminded me of a presentation that we did on the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882. Under this act, Chinese women who were trying to immigrate to the US because of work or more commonly because they fell in love with soldiers, were assumed to be prostitutes or women of poor morals. These women had to prove to officials that they were not prostitutes and were assumed to be something they were not solely because they were Chinese.

In Massey’s Why Does Immigration Occur? A Theoretical Synthesis, he talks about all the different theories of immigration, as the title suggests. From the Segmented Labor Theory to the Social Capital Theory, most all of them discuss the reason for immigration being political unrest, economic opportunities, or variations of those two. Ling’s reasons were her own personal ones: wanting to be with her husband and wanting to travel while she was still young and able-bodied. The only theory that I could see relating to her immigration story would be Cumulative Causation Theory. This theory states that “over time international migration tends to sustain itself in ways that make additional movement progressively more likely”. It could potentially be relevant if her family or friends from China see the life she has made for herself in America and see how happy and successful she has been and decide to immigrate based on her story.

We also discussed in class how some immigrants either try to completely “Americanize” themselves or totally embrace the culture their home country. Ling is neither one of these extremes as she embraces her Chinese culture while still adapting and adhering to American norms. One thing she did mention that is very “Americanized” about her culture is the food. She says American Chinese food is not the same as Chinese food in China; it is much saltier here and it is adjusted to better cater to the area where the food is being sold.

Conclusion

Being able to participate in Immigrant Harrisonburg has been an amazing experience. I feel so lucky to have been a part of sharing and hearing the unique stories of people’s immigration on a platform that can be reached by anyone. We are so fortunate to be able to live in or go to college a town such as Harrisonburg; ‘The Friendly City’ and a place immigrants from all over can call home. It was a privilege to meet with and interview Older Sister Ling and I sincerely hope people take the time to read the Immigrant Harrisonburg interviews and learn about the cultural differences Harrisonburg has to offer.

[00:01] Claire Keeton: Okay, so I’m Claire Keeton

[00:03] Trenton Heard: I’m Trenton Heard

[00:05] Claire Keeton: Um, this is for our sociology 318 class and today we’re here with Ms. Ling Dong, thank you again for taking time out of your busy schedule to help us with this project. We really really appreciate it for the second time. Um, could you just start off by telling us your full name, age, and where you are from?

[00:23] Ling Dong: My full name is Ling Dong and I’m originally from China. My age, I just turned forty.

[00:33] Trenton Heard: And what part of China are you from?

[00:35] Ling Dong: It’s called, why am I looking at it? (looks at microphone) It’s called the Sichuan province and its kind of in the central in China, geographically.

[00:46] Claire Keeton: Um, what year did you come to the U.S. and how old were you at the time?

[00:52] Ling Dong: Um, I came to the U.S. in 2008 for the first time. I stayed for a year in Pennsylvania. The recent time was from 2012, no no no January 2013 till now. I stayed in, yeah Harrisonburg.

[1:13] Claire Keeton: And how old were you at that time?

[1:15] Ling Dong: That was 2013, so five years younger than 35.

[1:21] Trenton Heard: So when like coming to America, um what were some of the struggles you had to go through with regards of getting actually to the states?

[1:30] Ling Dong: Um, you mean through the immigration process?

[1:34] Trenton Heard: Yes, Exactly

[1:35] Ling Dong: So when I was in China, um my husband and I, we had, we had, to start my immigrant immigration process half year before, before the time that yeah we book ticket to come over here. So that took over half a year to just get all the paperwork done and enabled me to come over from that’s the China side happened. Yeah

[2:05] Trenton Heard: And did you meet your husband in China or did you meet him in the states?

[2:08] Ling Dong: I met him in China.

[2:11] Claire Keeton: Um, that kinda answers the question but was it a personal decision for you to come to the U.S. or did someone, I’m assuming your husband um or something influence this move?

[2:22] Ling Dong: Um, it is ahh, it is a personal decision and also it involved my husband’s input to make that actually happen. Yeah, traveling the world always a dream for younger me back then. And I had traveled to other countries overseas before I came to the states. So that, that seems to be a right timing for me to come over.

[2:55] Trenton Heard: So like what was your biggest concern about coming to the states? Was it like leaving your family, not knowing how to speak english or learning a new language or what was your biggest concern?

[3:07] Ling Dong: It includes all those aspects, be away from family for long time oh yeah was a concern. Um, because I had very close relationship with my family. Also the language I didn’t, uh, I did not worry about language too much but um, it was there cause, you know, language is the main way of communication and even in a different culture that requires a lot of communication.

[3:37] Trenton Heard: And how familiar were you with English speaking language? Did you speak any English while you were in China or did you have to learn that on the fly?

[3:45] Ling Dong: Um, for me, I um, well overall in China on kids have to take English class back to my time was from middle school and for today’s kids they start even early. Yeah to learn english. So before I came, I had some, I had some good vocabulary back then um, the one thing I really have to work on was um, actual talking, speaking. Yeah using that language as a way to verbally communicate with people. So I was pretty good at um, read and write, but the listening and speaking part I had to, I realized later that was harder.

[4:35] Trenton Heard: Now I know like when people learn like another language, everythings is really proper. Um like just like America has a like a lot of slang, a lot of like different ways of people saying things. Um how hard was it for you to learn like the different slangs or the different like I guess like lingos that people say you know depending on where you live too.

[4:54] Ling Dong: Oh, speaking slangs or lingos is still difficult for me cause those things you don’t get without the language environment, without, I mean outside of that, that culture. So I did not know, I did not know much of the slangs before I came and I could not understand what people mean when they use imply those in their, in their, uh talking. Yeah so that I think that’s a challenge for me as uh, yeah as a second or no, uh as someone who speaks english as second language.

[5:31] Claire Keeton: Um, and you mentioned that Pennsylvania was the first place you moved to, what brought you to Harrisonburg?

[5:39] Ling Dong: Harrisonburg, So, um, well my husband he found a job in Harrisonburg. So that’s why we came here.

[5:53] Trenton Heard: And do you like Harrisonburg, do you think it’s pretty culturally diverse here? How do you like living in a place like Harrisonburg?

[6:01] Ling Dong: Oh, I didn’t know much about Harrisonburg before I came. I just gradually, um, I am very impressed with the welcoming atmosphere and also I liked the part of diversity in yeah, just the different culture diversity also the groups of people from all over the world. Um, yeah that’s just has been a learning experience for me to, yeah living here comparing the one year I lived in Pennsylvania. I feel like there’s more new things going on in Harrisonburg

[6:37] Claire Keeton: So Harrisonburg calls themselves like the friendly city. Did you find than it was in Harrisonburg or in in Pennsylvania or just different?

[6:46] Ling Dong: Umm, I guess here. So I didn’t have, I didn’t have, um okay, I guess i’ll put it this way. I have better, a bigger circle of friends or acquaintance here in Harrisonburg because I had more opportunities to meet people and also more opportunities to be exposed to different cultures like hispanic culture and also arabic culture, but I didn’t have those opportunities while I was in Langster Pennsylvania. Yeah, I agree. It is quite friendly. The neighbors came to say hi to use the first or second day we move here. Um, yeah communities been very supportive and especially when the times in need, they cook meals for us when I delivered my daughter and yeah people brought meals too.

[7:46] Trenton Heard: So I guess that question i’m about to ask you, It should I guess be a positive one. So like when you came to Harrisonburg, whether it was Pennsylvania or Harrisonburg, how do you think you were treated as like a an Asian or like a minority because I know there is a lot of black lash between like, you know minorities and the majority because of things that may have happened for example, after 9/11, there were a lot of muslims that were getting, you know, hated upon due to their race and ethnicity because of what somebody else did. Did you feel any of that when you were in Pennsylvania or Harrisonburg?

[8:20] Ling Dong: Yeah many many bad things happened to people from minority, from different background based on their racial differences. Um personally I haven’t encountered any those hostile or unfriendly behavior toward my race or where I come from. So I guess I’m just lucky.

[8:53] Trenton Heard: Now do you face any of those stereotypes? I guess people have put a wrong, like Asians, Asians have, I guess small eyes or Asians are really smart or have you faced any of those stereotypes?

[9:05] Ling Dong: Yeah I head people like talk about those stereotypes like joking way. Um, I don’t see those. Um, so I don’t, I don’t experience with adults but I did hear those stereotypes from my students here in public school. Yeah they would have be brave to come over and ask me those questions like do all asian people you know have this kind of eyes. Yeah, people tend to have those stereotypes such as Asians are good at math. Um, well they work hard, they work lot harder than kids here so. But not everybody, so that’s not true to everyone and yeah, I did get asked those questions.

[9:57] Claire Keeton: I know we last time about how you’re like in the public school system as a teaching aide, was that your first job coming to Harrisonburg or did you do that in Pennsylvania as well?

[10:06] Ling Dong: Um, that’s what I did in Pennsylvania through a volunteer program, but in Harrisonburg, my first job was very entry level. I work at the cafe, so like food service. So I serve and I prepare food and yeah for the customers.

[10:27] Claire Keeton: And where was that?

[10:28] Ling Dong: That was um a bowl of good, if you know. It’s a local restaurant a bowl of good. It’s on Mount clinton pike near EMU. Not far from here.

[10:42] Claire Keeton: Um, Did you feel that as an immigrant, would you have, I’m going to rephrase this question, would you have gone straight into teaching? Do you feel like coming in from a new place if you were not an immigrant do you feel like that had any affect on you having to get like an odd job before you got back into your teaching?

[11:03] Ling Dong: Um, I feel that way. I think that’s true in my case because I was a middle school in China before I came. Um, I see it more as a professional job then those entry level jobs. But um after coming here, I sense there is a gap for me to go straight back to a professional job without any further training or you know, certificates to prove that I am qualified to do those things. So I had to go through the system to you know to have those paperwork to show. Yeah, I so that, that takes time and takes money to go through the training process. I had to go back to school, take classes too, to be able to be where I am at now.

[11:56] Claire Keeton: So even though you were just as qualified, if not more, and were doing essentially the same you felt you had to still prove yourself even though you had a great job in China, in Pennsylvania, is that what?

[12:08] Ling Dong: Yeah I think so. I think here in the states for people to accept you, especially academically, they have to or we as immigrants, we have to show people that we, we know, um, we know what they need and we can provide that. So we have to really prove that for people here before they hire us. I feel that way.

[12:36] Trenton Heard: How hard was it for you to go through that process? I know like going through the immigration process was hard, you know had to do all the paperwork. How hard was it for you to, i’m sorry, Claire said it to prove yourself and get through that system of like proving yourself to become a teacher in America.

[12:52] Ling Dong: How hard that is?

[12:53] Trenton Heard: Mhmm

[12:54] Ling Dong: Um, It definitely requires time and patience. Um I think for younger people, might be easier when you’re younger to when you immigrate at a young age because you don’t have family, don’t have other obligations to fulfill. So you could be more focused. At my age, we had not a difficult time but quite stressful to just get back on track, you know. Um I never, I mean I never, I never wanted to work on those entry level jobs and I want my career back. So yeah, just have to cross those hurdles and to put work into it.

[13:48] Claire Keeton: How often to do you go home to visit family and friends?

[13:55] Ling Dong: We go back almost every summer for about a month to see my family and friends there.

[14:04] Trenton Heard: And I know like going overseas especially China, it’s really expensive, and you know it’s a lot of work and going through that process. Um, is there every a time where you feel like it’s become too much to go back every summer or is there a time where they’ve come over here to visit you?

[14:20] Ling Dong: It is expensive to make that trip. Um, for I think for many families they don’t have the fortune to do this. We, I mean we don’t have that much money to do this but we prioritize so we, we do our best to make it happen so we have to cut some other costs and yeah, to make sure we can go back. It is more expensive.

[14:51] Claire Keeton: I know last time we were here you mentioned that you’re actually permanently moving back. Is there like a reason other than your family that uh, but that’s going to be put in motion soon or is it mainly because you miss your family and you want Ella to grow around them.

[15:09] Ling Dong: Were not moving back permanently, but we are moving back for a certain amount of time like where looking at three or five years to live back, to be with family and yeah, it’s older I grow, the more I realize you know family is is very important and that will be, that would be one thing in my bucket list. So yeah, we’re gonna do it rather than later.

[15:47] Trenton Heard: So coming over to the states, has your family ever wanted to come visit the states or have they ever wanted to see like the big cities like New York or D.C. , like have they ever been interested in coming to do all that stuff?

[15:59] Ling Dong: Um, we did invite my family come over and they showed interest coming over but in reality, the visa is always, always a struggle to to get it, to get that done. So unfortunately my family did not pass the visa interview and that was a lot of work and it cost money to do that. Um so for my mom as a traditional chinese women, and that was not a pleasant experience for her. So she does not want to try it again. Speaking of sightseeing in bigger cities, while China is quite big and some areas that were really developed so I don’t, um, that’s not a big drive for my family to come over. I think it is family is the main reason why why we want to be there or here.

[17:01] Trenton Heard: So like, um, I guess like a big thing is America is the land of the immigrants, you know let all the immigrants in or whatever, but as you said it’s hard to get a visa to come visit the states, even to come for vacation. Um, why do you think it’s easy for americans to get a passport and visit any country they want on vacation but it’s hard for anyone to come visit the United States for vacation?

[17:21] Ling Dong: Well there is a word called privilege. So Americans, if we say it more precisely our American white people, they possess, I don’t know who gave them that power, but the world somehow work that way. They think, I know they are rich, highly educated and also I think in the money. Um yeah, that’s why the countries are competing against each other to, you know, to be rich and they have more, more say, um, as a global stage. I think right now still, U.S. still one of those, one of those who has strong voice internationally. So for Americans, um, yeah they had those diplomacy policies with other countries, so they have those privileges they can just go there without visa.

[18:26] Trenton Heard: Do you think like it’s the citizens of the United States are the reasons why the visas are so strict or do you think it’s more of like regards to the national security. Is the reason why they don’t want to give out that many visas?

[18:38] Ling Dong: Well the immigration process or policies are very restrict and they put that. They say that’s because of security. They want to protect homeland and you know people who live here, they don’t want let any dangerous people come over you know to cause damage here. Um but I personally think it is the nation’s duty job to take care of their citizens, to make sure they’re living life is safe here. And also I disagree on some policies that this country have been carry on because I see they have more restriction on people who are from developing areas, developing countries, or from a different religious background. So I see a system has put people in a place that their not worth trusting. Whoever comes, we have to decide. So it’s not, it’s not , it’s not up to the people who want to come over to this country to prove they are good people or not, it’s up states, up to the government or U.S. government to say you’re good or you’re not good. So like people even have no chance to to defend themselves. So they are sentenced by the government. The U.S. government yeah.

[20:17] Claire Keeton: Something you said last time that I found very interesting was that you feel and not just you honestly I feel the same way but immigrants are “guilty until proven innocent” when the whole thing that Americans like judicial system is innocent until proven guilty. But that was really interesting. You just put that into words because it’s clearly true for months and months of paperwork when you’ve done nothing wrong and you have every right to be here as anyone else. Um not to completely change the subject, but what was your impression of like America, Like what’d you think life in America was going to be like before you ever came? Like before you’d ever seen it for yourself?

[21:02] Ling Dong: Hmm, I guess before you go anywhere, you, it’s hardly need to have the full picture before you had the first hand experience. Um, guess I haven’t thought I would, I would, I would be able to get to know people from, you know, middle east that far or get to know people from Africa or get to appreciate the American culture and African culture here. Um, so those experiences happened after I came so before I came, I couldn’t imagine this. I think the U.S. , the country is more diverse than I used to know and also the life here, I used to think you know (Side conversation with Husband and Daughter) Um I didn’t realize how, how big the race issue. Yeah before I came. And also the gender issue. So yeah in China maybe people never talk about it and it seems like nothing like what’s happening here.

[22:41] Trenton Heard: So how do they portray, I guess Americans in America in China because I know like a lot of Americans now portray China and Chinese people is like oh

[22:52] Claire Keeton: Like on TV shows they’ll be like the really smart one and I’m just wondering if like in America it’s more like we are the fat ones or like the dumb ones, like how it’s portrayed in other countries.

[23:01] Ling Dong: Definitely the size is much bigger. Um, um, poverty and I has was, I just suddenly forgot Americans. Mm, Oh violent. Then the state so the country is not safe because everybody bear arms so it’s not safe. Um, so also maybe due to the government influence, people tend to think that there’s two countries or governments are not friendly with other.

[23:47] Claire Keeton: The American Government?

[23:49] Ling Dong: Yeah, Yeah, the two countries always in competition. Um, because the history that chinese people always and the government always wanting the chinese people to know about the history and how badly the chinese people were treated by you know, the western countries. And um, so there’s not a very, I personally want to say, not very friendly view toward U.S. government. Um, but since the exchange has been that you know the people who are not americans, you know, work and live in China and make China their home there. Um, so people see the both sides, the friendliest of American people but also the aggressiveness in America.

[24:43] Claire Keeton: It’s not incorrect, like there is so much gun violence here and it’s so significantly greater than anywhere else that it would make sense to have that in like other people’s perception of America.

[24:56] Ling Dong: So my mom over phone, my mom would ask me, oh I heard this on news you know, the shooting of school or people got shot and so how’s, how’s the place you are living? And I said, oh, this is a safe place. We don’t even lock the door, you know, let’s say um, so cause people not interesting to, to see the whole picture. I guess the same would happen to American people how they view China or Chinese, yeah they probably know there’s no way to find out the whole story, but people will take those pieces because media approaches or emphasis on those things.

[25:35] Trenton Heard: And is how that they portray Americans in like China? Is like Americans being or Americans and or America being like the violent country that has a bunch of like shootings, killings, and stuff like that. Is that how America is portrayed in China?

[25:51] Ling Dong: Yeah the violence is definitely one thing and also while people admire how well the nature reserve, like the national parks, you know, the work that government has done to protect nature. So people are aware of that too. So there’s a beautiful country with violent and racial problems there.

[26:16] Trenton Heard: Now working, we understand that you work in a school. So kinda going back off the same question I asked you before, are you ever like, what are your views on like the whole bear arm thing and able to defend yourself for like kind of connecting that to like school shootings and stuff like that. What’s kinda your stance on that?

[26:39] Ling Dong: Oh well I definitely support gun control or completely ban gun purchase. I mean if you talk about self defense, well if you have a gun it’s not self defense, that’s killing. Because yeah, there’s no either you die or the other person dies, so it’s life or death. Um, and also you know for people who do not carry guns or people who do not believe in that kind of self-defense, then they put themselves in a vulnerable place like students in schools. (Talks to her daughter) [27:31] Um yeah, I just don’t see why I know Um before the constitute founded or founding fathers, they put that in there too you know, to prevent, like dictator or government like or slave people so they have the arms to fight back for democracy and the rights. But now people are not using guns for those purposes, so.

[27:59] Claire Keeton: This is much less controversial, how have you incorporated your chinese culture into your home and lifestyle here in Harrisonburg?

[28:17] Ling Dong: Chinese culture is a, I realize it’s um, yeah under my skin. I know I’m chinese. The manner where, I mean yeah, wherever I will be always be chinese and also I have adapted to a new environment and I see myself um, has grown into a person who has extended capacity to embrace or difference in countries. So in this house, we cook chinese food and we appreciate mexican food so we have a diversity of foods. Um yeah, we use, we keep our language. I speak to my daughter in chinese, I scold her in chinese (Side comments) [29:26] Um, yeah, we celebrate chinese holidays here.

[29:35] Claire Keeton: So have you brought any like, what’s the word, like decor into your home that’s like traditional chinese, like do you have any like flags or like pieces or anything that um just when you see it, it’s just a little piece of home

[29:51] Ling Dong: Um for instance, that China knot in red, that’s one of the symbol, you know, for, for happiness, for good luck. Um, yeah we do not keep national flag, that’s a different, it’s very different from American, you like to fly your flag, in front of your house people do that, but in China, flag is more like government thing, we do not yeah, we don’t fly a flag around the house, but we keep some small traditions and chinese people would get together for some special occasions. Did that answer that question? I kinda get distracted.

[30:33] Trenton Heard: Yeah that’s funny that you say that cause like I know like America is big on like promoting the flag, you see the flag everywhere. Swim trunks, stickers on back of cars, flags around people’s houses.

[30:42] Claire Keeton: It’s like a decoration, almost like a poster

[30:45] Trenton Heard: So why do you think that’s different in America than like I guess like the Chinese people really don’t promote the flag like Americans promote it here so like the American flags on everything, clothing. So why do you think that’s different? Is it maybe the patriotism or like the patriotism?

[30:59] Ling Dong: Patriotism is everywhere in I mean in all countries they promote that or they try to. China also does they same thing. We just never associate that way, the flag. Yeah it’s interesting and here the flag is everywhere and yeah also maybe the type of governance here is um the election oh we have election there but it’s not the same here so people feel the distance from ruling the country. But here the government is making decisions not as people, but here people maybe feel strongly about, you know, they are involved in the politics, the decision making. They are electing the leaders but there we do not elect leaders so maybe that’s why.

[31:56] Claire Keeton: Um is there something that you like found really weird or funny just like really different about American culture um then you thought it was going to be or like different than like chinese culture, for example, parent, or like the school system or something that you just found funny that we do or like that seems weird?

[32:16] Ling Dong: Um, things people do that here that I think weird (Talks to her daughter)

Weird…Ummm I would not say things are weird, um but they are just different, I haven’t felt like weird or in a weird way.

[32:45] Claire Keeton: Like can you give an example of something that is just like different or just something that you weren’t expecting?

[32:51] Ling Dong: Oh, I can take my work setting as an example. Like the relationship between students and teachers. Um, so here, yeah, here, students are treated (Talks to daughter/husband) Well in China we still spank kids. She’s asking for that. Um yeah, here students, um I know In Harrisonburg a lot of students are from traumatized families, they experienced trauma in their lives, so they’re treated differently but in general, here teachers treat students with is this, you know, they can’t use, I mean, how do I word this? Mmm, so my impression is students can do anything they like at school without consequence. Or the consequence would not be the consequence I’m talking about that you know, would have the students in any sense of fear. I mean I did not mean the negative fear, I mean the respect or honor or the consequences at least they need to remember so next time they don’t do they same thing. But here, they always get away from what they do.

[35:15] Claire Keeton: Like you mean like talking back to the teacher, saying I don’t want to do this. They don’t have a significant enough consequence like respecting their educators.

[35:22] Ling Dong: I think um, yeah that’s one. And also and maybe the educational philosophy is different so the learning goal sit there when students cannot meet it, cannot meet the goals, the teacher would say, well, it’s okay we’ll try that later. Um, but the students never did their best. I mean the could have the potential to meet their goal but they had all kinds of excuses not to make that happen, there’s nothing that teacher could do. Well in China, you know, we say, this is the learning goal for today, you’re going to do your best. So then they need to show their best. Um but if you did not meet your goal by the end of the day for example, like three pages of math, you didn’t get those problems solved, then you might stay at school till we get through this.

[36:16] Claire Keeton: In China, that’s what would happen?

[36:17] Ling Dong: Yeah in China. I could call parents and parents could come over and we could sit there together until you get your work done. So that depends on, so if you really try your best, they can tell right? They know their students they can tell, you tried your best and didn’t make the goal, maybe my goal was too high than your ability so we could lower it. But for some students, they just goof around and didn’t do their work and they are going to stay here till they finish. Or we could call parents and parents is always, in China parents always unconditional cooperative with teachers. So that’s the big difference, so i’m surprised to see there, you know why there that um standard of learning, SOL, why the scores are not as high as some schools. But there is also teachers feel you know, they cannot push students like in China like teachers did. They are afraid of the stress, afraid of you know, that hurts, well hurts because nowadays the suicide rate is high from pressure of stress so afraid of that. And teachers they are tired, they cannot, the academic achievement is not that desirable.

[37:38] Trenton Heard: So the leniency is America is a lot more, I guess greater than it is in China. Kids in elementary school now can like pass with doing like the bare minimum. Cause I know like when I was in elementary school, like as long as you showed up for class and did a little bit, they moved you up to the next grade. So like in China, they make sure you know the stuff before they move you on to the next grade.

[37:59] Ling Dong: That’s right, that’s right. I’m not saying that the way China is doing education is great. I think there is too extreme, like too tight, too much work, kids did not have enough free time. But here, I feel like it’s too loose. Another one, another thing I discovered the difference is parenting. Which I appreciate what I learned from here, I feel like kids at a younger age, they need to learn how to think for themselves. I feel in China, parents kind of did the thinking for their kids which is not good for later on development.

[38:44] Trenton Heard: Now is there like specific customs that you have either adopted like American customs or any Chinese customs brought over to America? My mothers Korean and she’s brought over a lot of Korean customs to our American household. Have you brought any of those over hear or have adopted I guess so called American customs?

[39:03] Ling Dong: Costumes? You mean the way we dress? Any traditions?

[39:07] Trenton Heard: Anything you do for instance, like my mom hates shoes in the house. So before you walk in, shoes are in the cubby and I see you have the cubby over there with shoes. So that’s like a custom my mom’s accounted too. Your shoes are off before you walk around the house.

[39:23] Ling Dong: Yeah shoes off in the house and I guess yeah. I personally appreciate neat, tight, tightness in the house. So i’d rather you know, things to be put away and I often struggle her because she’s opposite. Um yeah, we had more like table manners for say, um well her since that’s not why people you know, when you casual say you don’t really care about table manners or something but there and also respecting to respect the senior people who is older than you. It’s a big thing, you need to always be respectful, especially to people who are older than you, especially seniors. So we do not address people by their names. We always use title.

[40:20] Claire Keeton: Like Mr, Mrs. or Dr or like what do you mean by title?

[40:24] Ling Dong: Um yeah, your title, your work title, If you’re older than me, I need to respect you by calling you older sister Claire, so that way. Um, yeah, Now older people call me would use like younger sister Ling, so you like have that family kind of relationship with people who are not your sole family.

[40:51] Claire Keeton: That kinda answers my next question, so how would I address you?

[40:54] Ling Dong: Yeah you would address me older sister Ling even though we do not have that family tie so that’s yeah, they way you be polite, so the politeness.

[41:04] Claire Keeton: Um, how would your life be different have you not migrated to the U.S. and I know you were a middle school teacher you said in China and you’re still teaching here, um do you still think you would be a teacher in China, maybe a different grade or do you think your life maybe would have chosen a different career path or how do you think it’d be different?

[41:25] Ling Dong: Um, oh thank you for asking this question, Yeah, this is, this is due to a person’s personality and also expectations for life. For me, I always walk on changes and um I like life is full of adventures, at least when I was younger and now probably I would appreciate more stability in life. So if I never immigrated, I might be somewhere else and I see myself as a traveler, as a pilgrim in the world at least, why I still can move my body around and I would like to keep on moving, yeah.

[42:15] Claire Keeton: You said you’re a traveler, do you think you had not lived here, how high up do you think the U.S. would have been on your list of places you wanted to see? Because there’s like way so many other places, in so many other beautiful places around the world. How do you think the U.S. would have ranked on that list?

[42:32] Ling Dong: Um, natural scenery, Um U.S. has quite a few like world level, um, like those national parks. Yellowstone, Grand Canyon, so those places they are worth seeing, um yeah if I couldn’t come here, I might make my trip to other places to appreciate, yeah, the other wonders of the world.

[43:05] Trenton Heard: So I feel like a lot of questions people ask like people from other countries is like how is the food different. For instance, like your in America now and you’re a Chinese women, how is the Chinese food hear different from the Chinese food served in China or how’s the Mexican food here, different from the food in Mexico. Yeah, how is it different and how is it similar?

[43:26] Ling Dong: Um so people ask me the same question before, Chinese culture has you know, has um, that reputation. Travel from away from China, Chinese food here, lots of Chinese restaurants here run by people from south China called Fujian Province. So it’s typically um, Americanized food. The way of cooking is very different from real chinese food. And as for real Chinese food, there could be a whole book written to talk about it real chinese food or regions just like here, like New Orleans has their way of cooking, um Mexico they have their way of cooking. There is a state called New Mexico, so there in China is the same different regions, they have developed their way of cooking their food. Yeah some place favors more spicy, some places favor sour, sweet, so you get very different taste yeah.

[44:43] Trenton Heard: Okay so you’re saying who started these Chinese restaurants, Americanize or kinda develop their recipes to where they are at in the states? So like New Orleans like spicy so they Chinese food down there might be a little more spicy than it was like let’s say Maine, where they kinda like a more, I guess like a tart flavor, is that what’ you’re saying?

[45:04] Claire Keeton: I guess adapt it to where they are setting up their restaurant?

[45:07] Ling Dong: I think so. I think the Chinese restaurants here, they have adapted to American tastes but real Chinese food is very different and I cannot describe, you have to find out.

[45:23] Claire Keeton: Um so finally, I know we have taken up double the amount of time we were supposed to but if you could give yourself a piece of advice knowing what you know now about the immigration process and your life here in the states. What would it be?

[45:39] Ling Dong: Um, advice for the immigration process, I just wish people who in that position dealing with other people’s lives, but they had more mercy there, yeah um, for the second part, advice for my life here. To find, to build a strong support system for yourself, to find people that come from the same place you come from, to find people who have similar interest as you. So you, you need, you need to have a circle or several circles for yeah, just to have a real life here. Stay away from isolation, really, really, needed make friends.

[46:52] Claire Keeton: Well once again, you have been lovely to talk to. Ella, great entertainment as always, Um and we really really appreciate you letting us into your home for the second time and we are again so sorry that you had to do this again. But you’re very interesting to talk to. Thank you.

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