Luis Brem’s Journey: From Dominican Republic to Embracing American Dreams.

[00:00:00] Flynn Rodgers: So I think I have to give a quick intro.

[00:00:02] Luis: Okay.

[00:00:02] Flynn Rodgers: Hello. My name is Flynn Rodgers. I am part of Dr. Truille’s, um, Sociology of Immigration class. I’m here doing an immigrant story interview with Luis. Luis

[00:00:15] Luis: Brens.

[00:00:16] Flynn Rodgers: Yes. And do you know the date? Sorry, I think I left my phone in the…

[00:00:19] Luis: 11: 20

Uh, eleven twenty nine.

[00:00:28] Flynn Rodgers: Alright, it’s…

[00:00:29] Luis: Two thousand twenty four.

[00:00:32] Flynn Rodgers: Three fifty two p. m. I just remember in the, uh, the directions it said you had to state the time. So, um, so to begin, um, hopefully I’m not just reading off of this. Um, but I guess, you know, it makes sense to kind of start with kind of your initial story of, you know, uh, immigrating into America.

When you had kind of the idea of maybe wanting to leave the Dominican Republic, was it kind of a sudden moment of realization of like, “Oh, this is possible. And this might be a good direction for me”, or was it kind of a, a more kind of just slower, like it just kind of slowly comes to you like, Oh, this is the direction for me.

[00:01:09] Luis: Um, I would say that, uh, probably everything started, I finished high school in the Dominican Republic.

[00:01:14] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:01:15] Luis: And I did apply for a few colleges, and there was, we, we didn’t really have enough resources for me to go to college there. Um, you know, in Dominican Republic, they don’t have the financial aid that is in here and in scholarship that there is in here.

[00:01:31] Flynn Rodgers: Right.

[00:01:32] Luis: And, you know, I was just running, you know, through dead end street, uh, how to, how to pay for college. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:01:37] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:01:38] Luis: So my mom was already living in the United States. So, uh, that’s when the decision came, you know, for me and my brother, I will say too, to move to the United States. And I, you know, I wanted to go to college specifically because I had the opportunity that my father was in Boston.

Both of my parents were divorced by that time. And my mom was living in New York and my father was living in Boston. So I say, you know what, Boston is a great city to go to college. I’m just going to, you know, make the move. And also my mom was, you know, put it really clear to us that the best opportunity for us was to come to the United States.

And that’s really, that’s really where the decision mostly came from.

[00:02:24] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah. Very much an educational kind of opportunity.

[00:02:27] Luis: That was, that was originally my goal. My intentions of it.

[00:02:30] Flynn Rodgers: So the next question I had was um, did you kind of did you come to the U.S. by yourself? Or, and now of course you were going to join your parents, but were you, did you make the trip by yourself, or did you bring your brother? Or…

[00:02:42] Luis: Uh, we flew together me and my brother

[00:02:44] Flynn Rodgers: Okay.

[00:02:44] Luis: Yeah, my mom my mom was already here.

[00:02:47] Flynn Rodgers: Yep.

[00:02:48] Luis: So she waited for us, and we flew together. Actually, we we came through New York City.

[00:02:53] Flynn Rodgers: Awesome.

[00:02:54] Luis: Yep

[00:02:54] Flynn Rodgers: That’s cool. Um, so I was, I was then going to ask, um, so when it comes to kind of like the, the whole paperwork kind of situation of like, you know, um, getting the okay to come to America, I know some people sometimes, you know, come to America and then the paperwork processes and goes through as they’re in the country.

Sometimes you have to wait outside of the country to get the okay. Um, were you able to come to America as the paperwork was still getting processed?

[00:03:23] Luis: No, for us it was a little different. My mom really was the person who went through a lot of work, a lot of, um, tough times to actually to, for her to become legal here in this country.

My grandfather, her, her father was, um, lived in the United States, 60s and 70s, and he was the one who basically started the paperwork for her to get the green card for her.

[00:03:48] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:03:49] Luis: And at that time it, you know, it took a while for her to get the paperwork.

[00:03:54] Flynn Rodgers: Right.

[00:03:55] Luis: Uh, also she did marry a U S citizen. My stepdad, and that kind of was speed of the process for me and my brother.

[00:04:02] Flynn Rodgers: That makes sense.

[00:04:03] Luis: We were still under age, both of us. And when you have kids that are under age, it’s paperwork goes a lot faster, at least back, back in the eighties and nineties. And no, when my brother and I came here, we came with green card. Okay. We can completely with all the paperwork.

[00:04:19] Flynn Rodgers: That’s, that must be nice, you know?

[00:04:21] Luis: It was nice.

[00:04:22] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah. But, uh, okay. That’s, that’s great to hear.

[00:04:24] Luis: But we still struggle.

[00:04:25] Flynn Rodgers: Right? No, hey, there’s always struggle, right? But, *filler words*, so you received your green card before you came to the U S.,

[00:04:36] Luis: Mhm.

[00:04:39] Flynn Rodgers: Is, and you might not be able to put really like a timeframe on it, but how long do you think it took for your paperwork to kind of start the processing process and to actually getting it?

[00:04:50] Luis: Um, well for me, like I said, for me, my brother was no, it didn’t take a long time because when my mom, uh, when she, when she became legal, when she got her green card, basically she just submitted all the paperwork of us, me and my brother. Uh, and because we were underage, the paperwork with it, I would say if I recall correctly, maybe to, to get our paperwork, maybe four to six months? After she, she, she had her green card.

[00:05:24] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:05:24] Luis: Um, that’s basically when, after, you know, I would say probably a good six months, you know, that when, um, when we got, we both got a green card, we went to the post in the Dominican Republic, we went to the embassy, we went have an interview. They, you know, they talked to the two of us and all that kind of stuff, but it wasn’t too long for us because we were, we were underage. We were, you know, we’re not 21 yet. So yeah.

[00:05:51] Flynn Rodgers: That makes sense.

[00:05:51] Luis: 21, and that that’s a whole different story.

[00:05:54] Flynn Rodgers: Really? So like once you kind of hit that, Oh, that’s interesting.

[00:05:56] Luis: That takes a lot longer.

[00:05:58] Flynn Rodgers: And you know, cause it’s, it’s interesting, right? Cause it’s like, you hear four to six months and you’re like, well, that is kind of a long time, but then comparatively to other processing situations for different people, then you’re like, “oh, four to six months, that’s a breeze!”

Right? Um, so, Now, you know, granted, I wish the paperwork could be processed quick for everyone, right? You know, I mean, some people just get stuck waiting for years!

[00:06:21] Luis: Oh yeah, I mean, that’s, that’s our broken immigration system that we have.

[00:06:24] Flynn Rodgers: Oh, I know it. Um, okay, so moving on to kind of the second kind of set of questions I had, um, How many different places did you live in throughout your time in America? Um, Are there any locations and cities that have, uh, great, like a great Dominican community? Um, and culture that usually goes maybe unnoticed? Maybe like an area that, you know, doesn’t, um, might not be known for their great Dominican culture, but it has it? Um, and then I was going to ask, how is kind of the greater Boston area in terms of like Dominican culture and community?

[00:06:58] Luis: Uh, so we, we moved in 1990. I was just turning 20 years old.

[00:07:04] Flynn Rodgers: Yep.

[00:07:04] Luis: Uh, we came through New York because my mom was living in it. My mom, by that, by then my mom was living in New York City. So we stayed with my mom about a month.

[00:07:15] Flynn Rodgers: Okay.

[00:07:15] Luis: Um, my dad was already here in Boston and we told my mom that we really wanted to move to Boston because we wanted to go to college.

[00:07:22] Flynn Rodgers: Right.

[00:07:23] Luis: So about a, about a month, maybe six weeks tops, we moved to Boston. My father was living here then actually in West Roxbury.

[00:07:30] Flynn Rodgers: Oh yeah!

[00:07:31] Luis: Um, and um, we, we didn’t move in any place house. We said it with my dad for a good year. Yeah. And then me and my brother finds, you know, a small studio in Allston. And that’s where we took off the two of us.

So I’ve been, basically in Massachusetts since I moved in. I was in the city of Boston, I was in Allston, I was in, um, West Roxbury. I was in Roslindale. I was in J. P., Old Boston area.

[00:07:58] Flynn Rodgers: The whole greater Boston area!

[00:08:00] Luis: The whole greater Boston. And then, you know, just a little, just when the pandemic hit, I moved here to Dedham with my wife and my kid.

[00:08:07] Flynn Rodgers: That’s awesome. How would you describe the, um, Dominican Republic? Yeah, the Dominican Republic kind of culture?

[00:08:12] Luis: Well, back in, I would say back in the 90s when I moved, it was very small, extremely small. Uh, but it slowly grew, it grew, you know, it just, it took off from there, you know? I think one of the reasons is because, Boston is very close to New York.

[00:08:27] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:08:27] Luis: So a lot of, I, I, I do believe a lot of people move from New York to here. And once people start moving a little by little, it just take it, you know, takes a life of it’s own.

[00:08:38] Flynn Rodgers: Right, no, yeah.

[00:08:39] Luis: You know, not today. There, there’s, there are tremendous amount. There’s a lot of community, a lot of Dominicans, not just Dominican, other, you know, other Other Latinos too, and, um, Lawrence, the city of Lawrence is the one that had the biggest community of Dominican.

Um, so, um, but it’s since then it’s been, you know, you know, big, big community of Dominican.

[00:08:59] Flynn Rodgers: And that must be nice to kind of see, you know, maybe a smaller population and community kind of grow into something bigger. That’s, that actually is really cool. Um, so, you know, part of it, uh, and I guess, you know, this might be a silly question, but, um, You know, we just talked about how the, you know, the Boston area has this growing kind of Dominican community and culture starting kind of from the 90s and growing up.

Um, does it hold a candle to the community and population around the New York City area?

[00:09:28] Luis: What do you mean hold a candle?

[00:09:29] Flynn Rodgers: Like, like, um, in the sense that, uh, Cause, cause, um, from what I, from the research I did, uh, New York city and that kind of greater area is basically kind of, um, the biggest center of kind of Dominican culture. So…

[00:09:45] Luis: it will always be.

[00:09:46] Flynn Rodgers: Right. You think so? Yeah?

[00:09:48] Luis: Totally.

[00:09:49] Flynn Rodgers: Why so?

[00:09:50] Luis: New York is unique.

[00:09:52] Flynn Rodgers: Right.

[00:09:52] Luis: New York, the state of New York, New York city is unique. Yeah. You know, there’s not another city like New York, you know, in my personal opinion.

[00:09:59] Flynn Rodgers: I went once, I’d say the same thing.

[00:10:00] Luis: It’s very unique. Uh, it’s. You know, everything is there.

Uh, I mean, it’s not just Dominican. I would say anybody who leave their own country, their own culture, especially when you’re an adult, like I was, uh, you still are very attached to that. So they like to continue, you know, what they do, what they believe, you know, perhaps eating almost the same food, listening to the same music.

It’s, it’s, it’s just a nature. It’s a nature, um, habit to do. Yeah. Uh, also it’s a place where, you know, everybody feel very comfortable too and they, they can identify themselves.

[00:10:41] Flynn Rodgers: Okay.

[00:10:41] Luis: You know? Um, also had to do with what people want to do too. You know, some people don’t have, some people don’t want to, um, not looking the same thing like the other.

Like, I came here for certainly ambitions, I wanted to go to college, I wanted to become, um, you know. You know, pretty much what I am today. So I, I pushed myself to not just to limit myself to my culture. I wanted to learn more about the culture. I’m a big believer in, you know, in different culture. I love, you know, talking to people that are completely opposite of anything that I do or what I believe or what I eat, you know, but there are other people that are not like that.

[00:11:19] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:11:19] Luis: You know, but New York has always been, you know, the big, you know, You know, zero ground when it comes Latinos. You know, Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, you know, and there’s not really another place like, like New York. You know? You know? I mean, I don’t I can’t live in New York. I don’t think I will ever would live in New York.

[00:11:38] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:11:38] Luis: You know? But it’s different. I don’t, you know?

[00:11:41] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah, in New York and in, you know, from your situation where you, kind of just talked about how you kind of wanted to you know just talk, you know be around different cultures hear different perspectives because I I feel the same way. And I guess, you know, New York is kind of unique because, um, especially from your position because you still, you know, if you ever want to touch back into the Dominican culture, it’s there, but you can always stretch your hand out and see, you know, a million different other groups.

[00:12:06] Luis: That is correct.

[00:12:06] Flynn Rodgers: That’s, that’s part of the uniqueness to New York.

[00:12:09] Luis: You know, safely to say, it’s probably the capital of the world.

[00:12:12] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah, basically, I would say so. Um, so, moving on to question three, for nations where people are immigrating or migrating into the country, an obvious structural force that draws the migrants is the job opportunities.

When it comes to the Boston area, how possible is it for someone, um, like perhaps maybe a Dominican immigrant, maybe somebody who’s new to the country, Um, to find work that pays enough to support themselves, and more importantly, support their family’s cost of living.

[00:12:44] Luis: Mm hmm. That is a, I will say that’s a very complex question, but uh I do can say one thing in here, um, if you move as an adult to the United States and perhaps to a city like, you know, like Boston or come to a state, you, you, you typically, you typically have to look at it that you’re going to start from zero.

[00:13:07] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:13:08] Luis: Um, if you have no English language at all, that’s your first priority to try to learn the language.

[00:13:15] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:13:16] Luis: Um, because otherwise you can’t do anything.

[00:13:19] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:20] Luis: Uh, Well, on the other hand, there are people who have been here a long time and they speak very little English. Not just Dominican, although all the culture to all the country.

[00:13:31] Flynn Rodgers: Right.

[00:13:31] Luis: And they’re still be able to do very well.

[00:13:33] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:13:34] Luis: So, so it kind of contradicts a little bit what I’m saying. But for me was I knew that if I, if I, you know, if I move here from my culture, from my country.

[00:13:45] Flynn Rodgers: Yep.

[00:13:46] Luis: I was gonna do something with it. Yeah, I wanted it to, you know, to take it to the level, you know, as high the level that I can.

[00:13:54] Flynn Rodgers: Right.

[00:13:54] Luis: I knew that learning the language was very important to me. I knew that not disconnecting, not disconnecting from my culture, but rather than embrace my new journey, you know, because the United States, although I can, I can stay with a culture with Dominican culture almost every day, you’re exposed to so many different things in here that I personally believe that is, that is a plus in my life.

 

[00:14:18] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:14:19] Luis: Um, but anybody who come to this country and they don’t speak the language, depending where they come from, of course, and what they’re going to have in here, you know, it’s difficult. It’s very difficult, you know, because not only they’re dealing with, you know, they’re changing culture, they’re changing the, you know, who they are, everything now. And then they have to adjust and then they have to figure it out where they’re going to find a job. And that is not an easy, it’s never been an easy in my opinion. That is not any of the things to do.

[00:14:45] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:14:46] Luis: But at the other hand, it’s still the country, that anything can happen.

[00:14:50] Flynn Rodgers: Right.

[00:14:50] Luis: Because you know, I’ve seen it every day.

I’ve seen it. You know, I mean, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m part of that.

[00:14:56] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:14:56] Luis: You know, I’m part of, I’m, I’m, I’m the perfect example. I came here with no English.

[00:15:00] Flynn Rodgers: Right.

[00:15:00] Luis: Zero.

[00:15:01] Flynn Rodgers: Wow.

[00:15:01] Luis: And I met it, you know, I made my life in here. I went to college. I graduated from college.

[00:15:05] Flynn Rodgers: Right.

[00:15:06] Luis: You know, I have a career, you know, you know, I have my family, so I see a lot, you know, So you can come here.

And, you know, with no English, you can still make it if you, if you, if you had the desire and if you have the energy and the work that you have to put into it, you know? So…

[00:15:24] Flynn Rodgers: I, you know, it’s interesting, it’s, you know, I didn’t have this written, but it kind of strikes me when you said you came to the country without speaking English, and you had to learn it, kind of, and, um, you know, that must be such a culture shock, kind of, because you’re kind of, you’re, you’re taking in American culture and that whole situation, then you got to pick up the language, and, you know, uh, I’ll say, You know, I’ve always spoke English, so I can’t speak from this. But from what I’ve heard, English is kind of a hard language to really pick up.

[00:15:49] Luis: It is, it is, it depends where you come from really, you know, that’s fair to say.

[00:15:54] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:15:54] Luis: Um, but you know, it’s not even about that English is difficult. It’s when you, when you come as an adult, you, you, you already have an identity. You know, you, you, you know, you’re, you’re not a, you’re not developing anymore when it comes to who you are. So you got, you, and then you have to bring this, you, You have to bring this language into you, you have to bring this culture into you. And that’s the hard part.

[00:16:17] Flynn Rodgers: Right.

[00:16:17] Luis: That’s really the hard part. You know, putting the time into learning and trying to, you know, and trying to find your way in. And, you know, that, I think that’s probably the hardest part with that. I mean, I’m still learning English. I always said that.

[00:16:30] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah, yeah.

[00:16:31] Luis: After 34 years.

[00:16:34] Flynn Rodgers: I mean, it’s kind of interesting because I, you know, I, I always hear about people that kind of when they, when they need to pick up a language, um, how much, and so did you go to, uh, like English, like classes to really like pick up the language or did you pick it up very conversationally, um, just through everyday experiences?

[00:16:51] Luis: Well, I, I tell people who come here or people who have a hard time learning English, especially Latino, tell them, “if I learned”, there’s, “you can, you can definitely learn”.

[00:17:02] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:17:02] Luis: And the reason why I said that, because when I came here, I had no English. And also I wouldn’t even leave the house. I was basically in the house with my father.

[00:17:11] Flynn Rodgers: Right.

[00:17:11] Luis: I’m living with my father and I was really afraid to do anything. And it took me a while to break that.

[00:17:17] Flynn Rodgers: Right.

[00:17:17] Luis: You know, I literally. One day I got up and looked at myself in the mirror and say, “you know what? I, I left my culture. I left my friends. I changed everything and I have to make the best out of it”. And from that day, I said, no matter what it takes, I’m going to learn.

[00:17:35] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:17:35] Luis: So I went on the streets and I started to read more in English too, I basically just watched TV in English only. I, uh, uh, I took some ESL classes too. Uh, but the most important thing is that I decided that I will no longer care about what other people think.

[00:17:55] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:17:55] Luis: And when people make fun of me when I say something funny, uh, I would just not, no longer take it personal. Right. A little by little, a little by little, it was a grinder. Little by little, I, I, I, I pushed in, I pushed in, I pushed in, and you know, within a year and a half that I was here, I was accepted in college.

[00:18:13] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:18:14] Luis: I mean, it took a lot of work to get in and actually it took me a whole summer to get prepared for my first semester, but I did it. I did it within, within, within not even two years, I was in college already. You know? So, you know? So…

[00:18:28] Flynn Rodgers: Oh my God, that’s, that’s, that’s really, it’s, I mean, that’s just inspiring.

[00:18:32] Luis: It was difficult. It was very difficult. It was a grinder. But yeah, I did it, you know, that’s, you know, when you put the work, you can make it happen.

[00:18:39] Flynn Rodgers: Yes. And so, you know, and I don’t know how much of this is a factor in people leaving the Dominican Republic and coming to America. Uh, time after time in this pre in this class.

 So, you know, in this class it really, there’s so much focus on people coming to the, um, country for job opportunities. Now education opportunities I think it’s yeah, it’s something massive to that I really should have been thinking about more. But I wonder how big is kind of the you know job market job opportunities in the Dominican Republic are people leaving because they perhaps struggle to find a job there? Or is it that you know, the u. s. Is just so bountiful in, in opportunity.

[00:19:28] Luis: I, yeah, I see what you’re saying. I mean, the reality is Dominican Republic is a third, it is considered a third world country.

[00:19:33] Flynn Rodgers: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:34] Luis: So, um, getting, you know, even, even if you go to college, things like that, getting a good job and a good paid job is extremely difficult. It requires a lot of work. Yeah. It requires a lot of, you know, you kind of have to have some people helping you, um. Just because you go to college, Dominican Republic and you graduated with A’s and everything like that, it doesn’t mean you’re going to get a good job. In fact, most of my friends, you know, they have a decent job, a job that have, you know, given enough to, you know, to for food, a little bit of clothing, you know, pay the rent. But that’s really about it. That’s really about it. So people do leave Dominican Republic like any other country for, you know, quite frankly for better opportunity.

[00:20:21] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:20:21] Luis: Either they, you know, what, what they, what they want to do. When they get the opportunity to leave, they take it because it’s better for them to try to do that, to get ahead and stay behind.

[00:20:30] Flynn Rodgers: Right, that makes sense.

[00:20:31] Luis: However, I think, I think people get it wrong. I think there’s, there’s, there’s a good amount of people in here that have never traveled any place else. They think that everybody just want to come here. Like everybody just want to move to the United States. And that is completely wrong. People don’t want to leave their culture. People don’t want to leave their country. Everybody loves their country. No matter how the situation was in a third world country, when people move and go to another country, it’s basically to. Because where they are, there’s just not enough of them to survive.

[00:21:04] Flynn Rodgers: Right. No, I get it.

[00:21:05] Luis: And that’s why they immigrate. That’s why they move.

[00:21:07] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:21:07] Luis: You know, but at the end of the day, if anybody who is comfortable in their country, they will never leave their country.

[00:21:14] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah, you’re exactly right.

[00:21:16] Luis: Never, no matter what. So, now the United States is a very different country than everyplace else because it’s a country where, you know, it’s a country of immigrants. You know, so, and here, this is the only country in the world that no matter where you come from, You can actually work hard and you can make, you can make a living. You can actually get ahead.

[00:21:36] Flynn Rodgers: Right.

[00:21:36] Luis: Still today, it’s questionable, you know, the way we’re going right now.

[00:21:40] Flynn Rodgers: Right. I, yeah.

[00:21:41] Luis: You know, but there’s still a country where you can work hard and you, you get, you get ahead.

Yeah. You know, if you discipline and if you, if you, if you, if you really have a plan and you work hard. You, you, you find your place in here.

[00:21:56] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah, I, that, that’s, and that’s really fascinating because I, I do feel as though that, you know, perhaps the, the level, cause like you kind of said, this, the kind of almost American dream of just as long as you work hard and you do everything you need to do and you, you know, just stay consistent in your progression in this country. It’s it allows you to like actually, you know achieve the dream and in perhaps that is somewhat faded in these, You know, maybe past, you know decade or so and maybe in the future. Who knows, it might It might even become lesser, but still, the promise of like a meritocracy, where it’s like, Hey, you just gotta, you just gotta be the best you possible.

I think that’s just, it’s such a magnet, you know?

[00:22:40] Luis: It is. Totally.

[00:22:43] Flynn Rodgers: So, moving on. Migration has been shown to occur at a higher rate when the migration population is flowing from a once colonized country to the country which was the colonizer. Which, when I learned that, that was pretty fascinating to me. For the Dominican Republic, uh, this is largely Spain, but I also got to learn that apparently French had controlled the DR for, think it was like 15, 20 years. Um.

[00:23:07] Luis: French had controlled the entire, the entire island at one point. Yes.

[00:23:10] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah. And, and, you know, of course, I know you can’t speak for every single person, but I guess as generally as possible, do you think that perhaps, um, people in the, in the Dominican Republic, um, if they want to, you know, perhaps move to a different place.

Um, do you, do you see kind of a sentiment of perhaps wanting to go to Spain, wanting to go to France? Um, is America a destination of similar popularity, less popularity, more? Um, and is there any chance that Dominicans, and this might just not be, you know, something people think about, but, Um, cause to me, I always thought, like, you know, gosh, I don’t know if I’d want to, you know, immigrate to a country that was once a colonizer.

[00:23:52] Luis: Mm hmm.

[00:23:53] Flynn Rodgers: Is there any angle where people in the DR would say like I want to leave, I want to kind of go to a different place but I’m going to choose the U. S. because the U. S. imperialism didn’t affect the Dominican Republic like Spanish imperialism and French imperialism did?

[00:24:09] Luis: I don’t think anybody who, I would say the majority of the people who does leave the island, the Dominican Republic, they, history is probably the last thing they’re thinking about.

[00:24:19] Flynn Rodgers: Okay, yeah.

[00:24:20] Luis: I don’t, you know, I guess I have to see more, I have to see any evidence for that of, “well, I want to do this”. People, like any other culture, like any other country, they immigrate because the cost of living is, You know, they’re, they’re, they don’t have enough.

[00:24:34] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah, that makes sense.

[00:24:35] Luis: They have very little. So, and they’re going to move to a place where they can find some kind of a support so they can get it going.

[00:24:42] Flynn Rodgers: Right, right.

[00:24:43] Luis: On themselves.

[00:24:44] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:24:44] Luis: Uh, the U. S. clearly we have tremendous amount of Dominican living in the U. S. Probably, it’s probably, I have never met a Dominican that doesn’t have a family or relative that lives in the United States.

[00:24:55] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:56] Luis: Is there anybody that does not? Probably. But everybody in Dominican Republic will, that I know, either has a family, a friend.

[00:25:05] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:25:06] Luis: You know, so when people get to leave, somehow they figured it out. Or they have some common arrangement about some people and I can help them out for a little bit to get going.

[00:25:15] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:25:16] Luis: Do Dominicans would like to go to a different part of the world? Yeah. I can see that. I mean, there’s a lot of Dominicans who went to Spain.

There’s a

[00:25:24] Luis: big community in Spain. The language is attractive. So they don’t have to learn another language. But the opportunities are not the same. And their support is not the same.

 

[00:25:33] Flynn Rodgers: I see what you mean.

[00:25:33] Luis: And the immigration system in, in, in Europe is even, if we think it’s really tough in here, it’s even tougher in Europe. Especially for Latinos.

[00:25:41] Flynn Rodgers: Okay. Wow.

[00:25:41] Luis: You know, to stay there, you know, to stay legally and do things like that, is very difficult.

[00:25:45] Flynn Rodgers: Really?

[00:25:45] Luis: There’s not much support there.

[00:25:46] Flynn Rodgers: Huh.

[00:25:47] Luis: Yeah.

[00:25:47] Flynn Rodgers: Wow.

[00:25:47] Luis: So, and, you know. So I think just people, when people, when, when anybody decide to move out of Dominican Republic, it’s basically because it’s not sustainable the way they’re living. And they’re going to go to a place where they can make a little bit more money and, you know, put food on the table and, you know, get some kind of a, you know, buy an apartment or a house or something, you know, more stability, you know?

And because of the Latinos are so, there’s so much, there’s so many now in the entire United States, it is, it is the first option. Plus, you know, the United States is too, the country that many immigrants want to come to get ahead.

[00:26:27] Flynn Rodgers: For sure.

[00:26:28] Luis: Still is. Still is. I mean, that’s just, that’s just what it is.

[00:26:31] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah. And it’s, it’s really interesting you say that because a massive thing highlighted in um, my, the class that I’ve been taking this past semester is kind of the, both things you touched on where, um, Almost this chain of migration where, you know, X amount of people move, small amount. And then if, if they realize like, Hey, yeah, no, we can, we can, you know, have a good life here and there is more opportunity.

Then you start to see, you know, friends and family start to come over. I mean, truly it’s like almost in every group, right? Every group that immigrate that it’s that kind of chain. Um, that’s really, that’s really fascinating. But so moving on number question, number five, But if you could generally estimate, I’m making you make a lot of generalizations, so, you know.

[00:27:13] Luis: No problem. I get it.

[00:27:14] Flynn Rodgers: If you, if you actually don’t have an answer, that’s fine. But, um, Oh, okay. I see. I see. So, did you end up getting any family and friends to move to America after you did? Because I know you came with your brother, but, um, like, was, was there more people that you were able to bring over maybe from your extended family or maybe friends?

[00:27:34] Luis: No, not in, not in my case. No. Not in my case. I mean, I don’t. No, I mean, I know, I have friends who move, you know, that’s, those were their decisions to move. Um, but I, I always, we always had, since the 80s, we always have quite a bit of family living in the United States. Especially in New York, um, New York, mostly we have a little bit in Puerto Rico, but typically in New York was where our family was, but no, I never really… never got anybody to actually, that I, that I influenced that person to move here.

[00:28:08] Flynn Rodgers: Yep.

[00:28:08] Luis: No. Not that I can recall anything like that, no.

[00:28:12] Flynn Rodgers: Interesting, okay.

Um, now, again, you might not actually know the answer to this, but it just kind of piqued my interest as I was kind of studying. Um, There is, and I think I’m going to touch on this, yeah, this fact is down here in question eight, roughly, you know, of, from what I remember, the two point, I think they got about 2. 8 million, um, uh, people from the Dominican Republic in America. And of that,

[00:28:37] Luis: I thought it was even more, but…

[00:28:39] Flynn Rodgers: Maybe, yeah, maybe I’m low balling the estimate.

[00:28:40] Luis: Maybe those are the legal ones.

[00:28:42] Flynn Rodgers: But, um, so apparently there is a popular, and I don’t know how they get this number, but roughly like 164- 65, 000 undocumented Dominicans in the country.

[00:28:52] Luis: It’s possible. Yeah, I believe it.

[00:28:54] Flynn Rodgers: Now. It’s kind of interesting, at least for me because I’m kind of out of, I, I don’t know the situation. If, you know the average American when they think about somebody trying to get into America, you know, they, the classic mexican U. S. border, um, but with D. R. being on an island, I feel like that kind of, that’s a kind of slightly different variable.

[00:29:14] Luis: How to get, how to get to the border.

[00:29:16] Flynn Rodgers: Right. And so, I was going to ask you like, you know, if people need to go to America and they really feel like their hand is forced and they have to go, are they, do you think they’re going to some place like Mexico and then trying, or are they doing something like, getting like a like a quick like a couple month visa or a vacation visa and just overstaying? I heard that’s a very…

[00:29:37] Luis: It’s a little bit of everything in there. I mean, I don’t have accurate information on that. Yeah. Yeah, I know back in the 80s. Um, you know back in the 80s and 90s, there was a massive amount of dominican You know, hopping into a boat to get to Puerto Rico illegally that way.

[00:29:56] Flynn Rodgers: Oh, really?

[00:29:56] Luis: Yes, that was a massive event. That somehow just got really to nothing today, I believe. Uh, but you know, a lot of, I would say there’s a lot of, you know, Illegal immigration, like any other country. People get the visa, they stay here illegally. People who get through, people go to another country to get here. Perhaps there’s people who go to Canada and cross over that way. Now today it’s a lot more difficult now because, you know, the border is very different now through Mexico too.

I mean, through Mexico there’s a lot of different country and cultures that are trying to, not just Mexico.

[00:30:34] Flynn Rodgers: Fully agree.

[00:30:35] Luis: Um. You know, I would say probably that’s mostly the way, uh, I mean, illegal immigration is so difficult. It’s so complicated, you know, I mean, to my understanding, most of, most of the, most of the illegal situations happen actually through, you know, to regular, to no more entrance planes, you know, to, you know, but I don’t know.

That changed tremendously. I’ve been very disconnected about how, you know, a lot of Dominican may be just getting here illegally. Uh, but I know back in the 80s in the United, there was a massive amount of, you know, uh, Dominican hopping into a boat and trying to get, get into Puerto Rico in that way.

Because once they’re in Puerto Rico, they can just board a plane.

[00:31:17] Flynn Rodgers: Right.

[00:31:17] Luis: With no problem to get to here, the United States.

[00:31:20] Flynn Rodgers: I never thought of Puerto Rico.

[00:31:21] Luis: Oh, yeah.

[00:31:21] Flynn Rodgers: That’s really interesting.

[00:31:22] Luis: That was, that was something, that was huge in the 80s and the 90s. Huh. A lot of Dominican died in the ocean.

[00:31:27] Flynn Rodgers: Oh, yeah. I can imagine. I can imagine.

[00:31:29] Luis: I mean, which is, it happened to the Haitians too, try to get into, you know, into Cuba and trying to get into Miami to send him with a Cuban. That’s also how a lot of Cuban got to, you know, say right in a boat, getting in a boat, trying to get into Miami. Yeah. And there too. So.

[00:31:44] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah, no, that’s, that’s really fascinating.

Um, now, it’s interesting, because I was taking a peek at, um, kind of the next question I was going to ask you, and since you, you know, um, said, you know, this was really, coming to America was an educational opportunity, as well as generally a bigger opportunity, um, so I might have to adjust this question. But I’ve, I’ve read about how there’s been, you know, in the migration kind of flows from The DR to the us, um, there are some periods that are more dense in, in migration than others. Um, with one being, you know, largely in the 1980s

[00:32:19] Luis: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:19] Flynn Rodgers: Um, and I, I saw that I, the catalysts that I, I I read about were kind of economic crisis.

[00:32:25] Luis: Oh yeah. Um, and eighties in the United, that was a huge economic crisis.

[00:32:29] Flynn Rodgers: Right.

[00:32:30] Luis: A huge one.

[00:32:30] Flynn Rodgers: And so do you believe, like, you know, the people that were leaving the DR in that kind of time. Was that a majority factor of just like…

[00:32:38] Luis: Of course.

[00:32:39] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah. It seems kind of obvious, but yeah.

[00:32:42] Luis: It’s well documented I mean there’s and there’s been some you know, not only documented there was there’s been some Many musicians have beautiful songs that they they they created all for that to you.

 It’s, yeah, the Dominican Republic was in a tremendous crisis in the 80s and the 90s.

[00:33:00] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:33:01] Luis: And that really forced a lot of Dominicans to do the unthinkable.

[00:33:05] Flynn Rodgers: Right.

[00:33:06] Luis: You know, hoping to get into a boat and try to get to Puerto Rico.

[00:33:08] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:33:09] Luis: Many of them died.

[00:33:10] Flynn Rodgers: I know.

[00:33:10] Luis: You know, I mean, it was bad.

[00:33:12] Flynn Rodgers: Right. That’s really, that’s, that’s something else. So I wanted to touch on kind of, and this is where I, you know, I bring up the, um, the undocumented number where, um, and, and this isn’t the best number because it’s like dated back to 2019. Um, but it said there that the amount roughly of undocumented Dominicans in America was 164, 000. Um, this is a very small fraction of the entire U S undocumented population.

Um, Um, and while also, and what’s interesting about this is that, um, there’s, yeah, up to 2. 8 million like legal, um, Dominicans in the country. And so what that leads to is that the rate between, um, undocumented Dominicans and documented, um, Dominicans in this country, Um, is the rate of that is actually far lower than other countries like, uh, like, like, um, the, the example that they, that I saw was that, you know, and it’s kind of a cop out example, but, um, the, the Mexican population in America of undocumented to documented, it’s, it’s, there’s a higher amount of, of, uh, undocumented.

So, um, I say that is to kind of ask, like, is there kind of a, an answerable explanation? For why, um, perhaps there are, like, less undocumented per, like, and we’re talking about…

[00:34:35] Luis: Or perhaps less desire for Dominican to come illegally, perhaps.

[00:34:38] Flynn Rodgers: Ooh!

[00:34:39] Luis: No, I mean, what you’re saying is probably… What I can tell you about what I, you know, what I know about, you know, Dominican Republics and Dominican culture and who we are Uh, the, the, the island itself, the country itself is full of problems, but it’s, it’s a very stable country.

[00:34:57] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:34:58] Luis: Right now. It’s a very stable economy. Stable. There’s a lot of problems. There’s a lot, there’s still a lot of poverty.

[00:35:03] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:35:03] Luis: There’s still a lot of, uh, necessary there, but in my, and this is just my personal opinion.

[00:35:11] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:12] Luis: I, I believe that a Dominican eat every day. They have food to eat every day.

We’re not an- the island is not in necessity. There are people that are literally dying of hunger. You know, and I think that probably has stabilized the, the, the idea that every Dominican wants to leave the Dominican Republic.

[00:35:32] Flynn Rodgers: Mm hmm.

[00:35:32] Luis: And that is not true. I mean, in fact, every year when I go back, I notice a less desire for Dominican to come to the U. S. Unless, unless they come legally and we, we, we clear a pass to do something.

[00:35:45] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:35:46] Luis: You know? Also, I don’t, I think also it’s very difficult to stay illegal in this country too in the U. S.

[00:35:52] Flynn Rodgers: Yes!

[00:35:52] Luis: This is not the, this is not the 90s when I moved here.

[00:35:55] Flynn Rodgers: No, for sure.

[00:35:56] Luis: You know, this is no, uh, when I moved here in the 90s, uh, back then I knew a lot of Latino that were illegal, but they, they were working, they had jobs. They were working and they were, you know, they were making a living, you know, and, you know, and, and they have, you know, there was opportunity for them. I think today it is very difficult to be illegal here. I mean, the opportunities are not what it used to be. Um, and that’s economic, that’s economic. That’s beyond what I can really make any opinion on.

[00:36:27] Flynn Rodgers: Right, right, sure.

[00:36:28] Luis: But I do know that, uh, the Dominican Republic has since probably, like, probably since the last decade, the country has been very stable.

[00:36:37] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:36:38] Luis: There’s still a lot of problem. There’s still a lot of people that needs a lot of stuff, but it’s stable.

[00:36:42] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:36:42] Luis: And like I said to you, like, when I started this conversation with you, Not everybody wants to move. Not everybody wants to leave. You know, people move when they really have to move.

[00:36:50] Flynn Rodgers: Yes,

[00:36:51] Luis: When people, when they, when you don’t have nothing.

[00:36:53] Flynn Rodgers: Yes.

[00:36:54] Luis: You don’t have a dime to buy any food. It’s a natural survival that you’re going to try to move to a place where you can find some food and things like that. You know, so.

[00:37:04] Flynn Rodgers: Makes so much sense.

[00:37:05] Luis: You know, so, and, and, and, and people, you know, it’s easy for, people that are not in that situation to judge those people. “Wow”. That, you know, but they have no idea what that is. They have no idea, you know, people, you know, these people, you know, people who move and do crazy things to get to this country, they’re desperate, you know, they’re absolutely desperate, you know, and, you know, and sometimes we have to think about that way, you know, you know, so why they’re doing this, you know, you know, so maybe that way we can figure it out how to manage this situation better.

[00:37:35] Flynn Rodgers: For sure. Yeah.

[00:37:36] Luis: So.

[00:37:37] Flynn Rodgers: And I, you know, I fully agree. I just think, you know, it, it is, there, there sometimes is a sentiment amongst kind of, you know, some people in America that, yeah, they almost don’t piece together the extent to the desperation of some people to come to this country and they just kind of like,” why do they keep on, why do they keep on trying to cross the border”?

And it’s like, yeah. You know, it’s probably not because they, you know, absolutely want to. It’s just like, hey, they’re between a rock and a hard place. They got to do something. Right.

[00:38:06] Luis: And you know, today, back in the 80s, there was a massive amount of Dominican trying to You know, to flee to the US. To the US. Or you know Cubans too, and you know, and what is today? Today you see a lot of Venezuelan trend coming here. You see that a lot now. You see a lot of Haitian too. You know, because the situation in Venezuela.

[00:38:27] Flynn Rodgers: Right, right.

[00:38:27] Luis: You know, so. And through the border, which is, I find it really interesting.

People think it’s just Mexican that’s coming through the border. They’re completely wrong about that. You know, there’s so many nationalities that are coming through the border. It’s not just the Mexican.

[00:38:41] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:42] Luis: But everybody thinks it’s just the Mexican that are trying to get out of their country.

[00:38:46] Flynn Rodgers: I know, I know.

[00:38:47] Luis: You know, but. It’s complicated, but the immigration problem is, is globally, it’s not just here.

[00:38:53] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah, no, you’re right. You’re right. And it’s kind of interesting. I, you know, I don’t, uh, I don’t have the stats to truly, like, argue this point. But, uh, when, when I was kind of doing some research, it’s interesting, um, specifically what I saw was pertaining to, um, the Mexican population that are in America.

But, you know, you always hear about the, like, coming into America. But there’s actually a sizable population of people that will return to Mexico.

[00:39:18] Luis: Yes, and not just Mexico, Dominican Republic too. I mean, my grandfather did that.

[00:39:23] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah, yeah.

[00:39:23] Luis: My grandfather came here and worked for, you know, 40 plus years and then when it was time for him to retire He picked up all his stuff and said i’m done i’m going back and he hasn’t, He he only come for like a week. Uh two weeks to see his family but he moved when he when he moved back to Dominican Republic he never came back anymore and there are a lot of people who does that. They come here, They work hard build something save their money. You know, and legally, because that’s another thing You know people think that oh everybody will come here, you, you’re doing things illegal and they’re trying to, you know, they’re destroying the system, and they’re doing things that I know, which is completely wrong. Really, you know, uh, it’s unfortunate that people think that way, you know, uh, but there are a lot of people who go back. I know a lot of people, I know Dominicans who went back and they’re, they’re not coming back. They’re done.

[00:40:12] Flynn Rodgers: Wow.

[00:40:13] Luis: That’s Dominicans. That’s, that’s other cultures too, you know?

[00:40:17] Flynn Rodgers: That’s so interesting.

And, and, and it’s, it’s funny because, You know, we can both understand that, but I truly believe, like, if you kind of, uh, explained that to, like, a lot of people in America, they would just be like, “What are you talking, what”?

[00:40:30] Luis: They don’t, they don’t understand that. They really don’t.

[00:40:33] Flynn Rodgers: There really is a disconnect.

[00:40:34] Luis: There is, there is. Plus, you know, the situation of, having this problem that we have with immigration also, a lot of people, a lot of people who are doing the right thing in here are victim to the problem itself.

[00:40:47] Flynn Rodgers: For sure.

[00:40:48] Luis: You know, you know, you know, I’ve, I’ve been judged. I’ve been just thinking about it, you know, “wow, look at this guy”, you know, like, like, like almost like I came here and then I’ve been, you know, sucking it from the system. It’s like I had to stand up for myself many times, you know, look. Just because I’m, you know, just because you see me and I don’t look like you, or perhaps I don’t speak the language, English the way I do. Let me just tell you my story. I’ve been here, legally, I’ve been working hard. I’ve been paying my taxes every year. I never have, I never got any, any freebie from the government. Everything that I have, I built it myself. I’m, I’m, I’m what made this country great.

[00:41:28] Flynn Rodgers: Right, yeah, exactly.

[00:41:29] Luis: This is what this country’s supposed to be. That’s the dream, right? You know, I have to stand up for myself because they feel like, you know, like, oh, he’s a head because, you know, because he, he got it easy.

A handout or, yeah. A handout or something. No, I’m sorry. Yeah, so do, do we have people that are trying to do, that are know that I’m doing things that they’re not supposed to? Yes. But that’s, you know. Don’t, don’t confuse everybody the same way because that’s just not true.

[00:41:49] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah,

I mean, you can’t, you can’t throw them all, but and you know, and I don’t mean to get into the weeds of it, but I certainly believe a lot of that kind of generality of like, um, “every immigrant legal or illegal coming over or just leeches on the system”, it’s, it’s media narratives that people kind of, you know. If you, if you, the same narrative is being pushed year over year, um, and eventually it just kind of gets into people’s mind. That’s just how they operate and they don’t, you know, they probably don’t put too much research into the actual issue. So whatever the talking head says on the tv, it’s just kind of like, okay.

[00:42:21] Luis: Lack of education, lack of, um, you know, Responsibility.

[00:42:25] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:42:26] Luis: You know, you know, it’s okay not to be educated something that you don’t know.

[00:42:29] Flynn Rodgers: Right.

[00:42:29] Luis: But it’s not okay. No, you know be You know being irresponsible and starting judging and doing things that you don’t have any idea what it is.

[00:42:37] Flynn Rodgers: No, I agree.

[00:42:37] Luis: You know, so if you’re gonna pass judgment if you’re going to make an opinion do your homework.

[00:42:42] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:42:42] Luis: And figure it out first way, you know, this is the country of immigrants. Nobody’s from here

[00:42:47] Flynn Rodgers: For sure

[00:42:47] Luis: That’s just what it is. No matter what. It’s amazing how a lot of people don’t understand that they don’t understand what that is.

[00:42:54] Flynn Rodgers: Oh for sure. Yeah. Oh, man, it’s it’s it’s really it’s such a complex so many different perspectives. It’s Something else, but, um, so on to the ninth question, would you happen to have any examples from your day to day life that you feel strengthens and protects the bonds that you have to Dominican culture?

Um, and you know, it’s probably an obvious yes, but is it important to keep those cultural ties strong and why?

[00:43:21] Luis: Um, yes. I mean, I guess it’s important to keep the, the culture tight. And I think it’s important. I think it’s important to, you know, to, um… to me, I, I came here, I was already an adult when I moved here and you know, and then now I lived in this, I lived here in the United States longer than I actually live in my own country.

[00:43:46] Flynn Rodgers: Wow. Yeah.

[00:43:47] Luis: So now, you know, people like me, we become very, we become like almost citizens of the world because we have our culture originally and then we acquired a new culture and now we have this conflict between the two cultures.

[00:44:01] Flynn Rodgers: Right.

[00:44:01] Luis: So I don’t leave my life thinking about. I gotta make sure I’m Dominican, I gotta make sure I listen to Merengue, I gotta make sure that I speak Spanish. I don’t live my life like that. I don’t need to prove anything to myself or to anybody. I know who I am. I love where I came from, who I am, and you know, the language, my first language, and I’m very Dominican, look, you know, just like any other Dominican.

But I’m also a person who enjoy other stuff. I enjoy all the different type of music. I enjoy You know, uh, speaking with, uh, somebody who is completely from a completely different country. I love different type of food. Um, uh, I, I just think that one of the things that I, for me was important was yes, I’m Dominican and yes, I’m going to always, that’s always going to be there for me is that perhaps what I thought was the best in the world isn’t that there isn’t anything that is better than the world.

Because, you know, when I met somebody who’s from. You know, from India, you know, and I get to try Indian food,

[00:45:02] Flynn Rodgers: Right.

[00:45:02] Luis: Phenomenal.

[00:45:03] Flynn Rodgers: Right.

[00:45:03] Luis: And they’re culture, what they do. And, and then he made me think about, wow, what the way I was brought up, the way that I, with the food that I was eating. Perhaps, it’s not the best in the world.

 Perhaps there’s not, there’s not such a thing best in the world.

[00:45:18] Flynn Rodgers: Right. That, yes. Exactly.

[00:45:19] Luis: You know what I’m saying? So, so to me, I enjoy Dominican food. I enjoy the merengue. I enjoy jazz. I enjoy blues. I enjoy techno. I enjoy rock and roll. I enjoy Indian food. I enjoy, you know, Chinese food. I, I, I’m, I’m a big believer that I’ve, you know, the, you know, the, the whole thing about collaborations and people being different and getting along and talking to each other is the best for humankind, in my opinion. Right.

[00:45:47] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah, that’s really a fascinating perspective because, um, it’s interesting and perhaps, perhaps, you know, maybe I was interpreting kind of, maybe the education that I got from the class, maybe a little too one note in the sense that, um, I remember, like, People are from, you know, videos that they would be shown in class. Like there was a emphasis on, uh, people that come here. Um, just, you know, of course, since you’re like living in a, in a, in a country that it’s, it, that is of its own culture and different from the culture that they came from, they’re gonna kind of, you know, be enveloped in that, into the new culture. But, um, there’s been, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve heard from some people that, you know, they really stressed, wanting to keep, you know, their, their cultural strengths alive. But your perspective is really fascinating.

[00:46:35] Luis: I’ll tell you why. And I’ll tell you why. Because I think there is a, there, a lot of people are very afraid. They think they’re going to become somebody else. They think, they think that if they don’t play merengue every day, it doesn’t make it right.

[00:46:47] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:48] Luis: They think that, you know, they, um, that’s part of it. You know, they, they’re really, They also struggling with not living in the Dominican Republic, you know, so they want, they still want to, they want to have what they have back home here, you know? And you know, there’s nothing wrong with that, you know, you, you, people choose what they want to choose. I happen to believe that if you, if you actually, uh, you know, assess and engaged and allow yourself to go beyond where you come from, it’s actually, you become a better person. That’s just my, that’s just my personal opinion.

[00:47:28] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:47:28] Luis: I, I, I, I love that. I, I, I personally love that. I can’t, I can’t eat rice and beans every day,

Okay. I can’t listen just Merengue every day. I know friends that are, that’s what they do. And you can get them out of that. Yeah. You know, and, and I respect that, you know, but that’s not me.

[00:47:43] Flynn Rodgers: Right.

[00:47:43] Luis: I actually believe that, you know, if you. Especially if you move out of Dominican Republic, if you really want to, if you really want to get yourself, if you want to, if you want to give yourself opportunity, you have to also allow yourself to go beyond your past and where you come from.

You know, that’s, that’s, you know, some people didn’t have to do that. They’re very successful. Dominicans, they never had to go beyond anything else, good for them, but that’s not the reality. If you’re gonna, if you’re gonna succeed in this country, or if you move to another country that has another culture, you must embrace that culture somehow. You need to, you need to find peace between those two worlds. I find my peace, personally. Um, I don’t believe that I need to, I have nothing to prove about anybody or myself, who I am. I’m Dominican, I was born in Dominican Republic, I came here as an adult, I’m also a U. S. citizen. Proud to be a U. S. citizen, I love this country, have given me, have allowed me to Define my dreams, my work. It allowed me to, you know, to really get where I am, but I work for it. It was not given to me.

[00:48:52] Flynn Rodgers: Yep.

[00:48:52] Luis: You know, and sometimes people get that wrong. I work very hard for that. You know, You know, so to me, embracing that is, I think, is important.

[00:49:01] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah, I think you and me can both agree on the fact that, you know, truly, like, I try to take in, whenever possible, um, you know, as much different perspective and as much different culture as possible. You said something that was like, you know, it like, it hit a light in my head where it’s like, there is really no “best food or best blank. It really is just”

[00:49:23] Luis: It’s the same thing where people say, “Oh, my country is the best.”

[00:49:27] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:49:27] Luis: For everybody who’s, whatever you come from is the best. You know?

[00:49:32] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:49:32] Luis: You’re not going to hear anybody say, Oh yeah. You’re not going to hear a Turkish say, “Oh yeah, Dominican Republic is the best country in the world”. You’re not going to hear that. Everybody thinks, everybody believes that their culture, their food, where they come from is the best. That’s why there’s no such a thing as the best. In fact, we shouldn’t be, we shouldn’t be spending time into that. We just be

[00:49:49] Flynn Rodgers: learning, you know, and,

[00:49:52] Luis: you know, and empower that our differences, you know, that’s, that I think is the best.

[00:49:58] Flynn Rodgers: I think more people got to think that way in all honesty.

[00:50:00] Luis: We, I mean, I’m raising my son now to be, we take him everywhere.

We try to, we have been, he’s been in Euros, he’s been in Latin America. I want him to be exposed. I want him to be, as close as possible. Different culture. Different race. Different scenario. Different food. Uh, for us, it’s very important. Very important that he becomes, that he’s aware about, what the world really is. Yeah. You know, so I’m worried about raising him in a bubble.

[00:50:27] Flynn Rodgers: Yes. Yes.

[00:50:28] Luis: That’s my biggest worry.

[00:50:28] Flynn Rodgers: I, I fully, and you know, cause, cause you know, there’s a ton of people, I’d say a majority of people live their life essentially in a bubble. Um, I, you know, I was able to travel kind of early on in my life. You know, I, I’d have to ask my parents about it. Maybe they were wanting to take me on, you know, these cruises because we would, we would be able to go into Mexico City or something like that. I remember going to kind of some different areas.

[00:50:50] Luis: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:51] Flynn Rodgers: And like, I, you know, I was a young kid, so, you know, you might not be taking everything in and truly…

[00:50:58] Luis: You are not, but it’s something sticking.

[00:51:00] Flynn Rodgers: Yes. I still like remember being a, a very young kid in completely different environments.

[00:51:05] Luis: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:06] Flynn Rodgers: And, and just being, you know. If, if you live too long in your, in your own societal bubble, if you go, it’s very often you’ll go to something else and you’ll be like, “Oh, this is like wrong”, but it’s not wrong.

You’re just so you’re, you’re kind of, yeah, it’s. And so when, when you can get exposed as early as possible to not, you know, to just different ways of life, I think it just, it gives you this ultimate perspective. That’s why I like sociology so much. I get to learn about different cultures and I get to understand.

And it’s. That’s what fascinates me.

[00:51:39] Luis: You gotta travel.

[00:51:40] Flynn Rodgers: Yes.

[00:51:40] Luis: Everybody needs to travel as much as possible.

[00:51:42] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah. No, so I, if you don’t want to touch on this, it’s fine. We’re kind of, I wanted to touch on just kind of current events just because I do feel it’s, it’s kind of interesting. And I think you might have a perspective on this that maybe not a lot of people have.

Um, and cause we, you just, you, you touched on earlier about kind of the intensity of the immigration enforcement in America. Where like, You said like it’s not like the 80s anymore or the 90s where

[00:52:09] Luis: It’s not for dominicans at least

[00:52:11] Flynn Rodgers: Okay,

[00:52:11] Luis: Not for Dominicans, I will say.

[00:52:13] Flynn Rodgers: And it’s interesting you say that because I I fully agree, but it’s it’s you know The reality is it seems to be only getting tougher, in the next in the in the next four years So, you know, I wanted to ask you kind of and because this is this is a hot button issue um the kind of… the ambition of Donald Trump to hope, or in his eyes hopefully get rid of birthright citizenship.

[00:52:37] Luis: Mm hmm.

[00:52:39] Flynn Rodgers: Is that something that like strikes you the wrong way or are you kind of indifferent to that?

[00:52:46] Luis: I? No, I would never approve that personally find the power to go against that. I’m not gonna do that. I think the rights of birth citizenship. I think that should never be changed. Especially for a country like this.

You know, we’re not, this is a country that’s solely have, this country has achieved, what it has achieved because of immigrants.

[00:53:08] Flynn Rodgers: Yes.

[00:53:09] Luis: You know, because, because of everybody who came here, who built this country. Once you go there, maybe we’re there already. Who knows? Once you go there, you will never come back from it. You know, so, um, I hope that doesn’t happen.

[00:53:28] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah, me too.

[00:53:29] Luis: Whatever is in my power to stop that, I definitely, you know, will do it. But on the other hand, you know, we, this is a country still that, uh, you know, people vote and people say, well, they want to be the leader and, uh, he won and, uh, whether I agree or disagree, he won and election has consequences.

[00:53:48] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[00:53:49] Luis: Now, this country is going through an interesting time now.

[00:53:52] Flynn Rodgers: It’s going to be interesting.

[00:53:53] Luis: Yes. Yes. Because we thought, we thought we were more ahead in many issues than we’re not. So we are, we, we have a lot of work to do. A lot of work to do.

[00:54:04] Flynn Rodgers: No, I agree.

[00:54:05] Luis: But good luck. Good luck for him.

If he’s, if you know, to achieve that, I think it’s going to be very, I think it’s going to be, it’s going to be, it’s going to be fight tremendously to try to change that.

[00:54:15] Flynn Rodgers: It’s easier for him to say he wants to get rid of it on social media than to actually get rid of it.

[00:54:19] Luis: I mean, well, this country, you can say whatever you want to say. But you know, the reality of achieving something here, it is extremely difficult. Extremely difficult because it’s a very divided country and I think the worst part of all, the damage that’s been done is that once somebody is allowed to do something, it’s going to, Where, where are we going to stop that?

Because there’s going to be a next one, there’s going to be a next one. And it could be on either side. You know, when something is wrong, something is wrong. What, but if we allow things to be norm, what’s next?

[00:54:50] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah, yeah. It’s, it’s, yeah, I see exactly what you mean. It’s kind of like, it’s a, it’s a dangerous kind of precedent.

[00:54:57] Luis: It is. It is. I mean, but, on the other hand, that’s it. Other countries don’t allow, they don’t, you know, it’s very different than here. I mean..

[00:55:04] Flynn Rodgers: Sure, sure.

[00:55:04] Luis: Many country and, and you, if you’re born in Europe, doesn’t mean you’re gonna be..

[00:55:09] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah, of the country you were born in.

[00:55:10] Luis: Exactly right.

[00:55:11] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah. I know. I know.

[00:55:12] Luis: Yeah. So it’s not like, uh, it’s unique in here. It’s, and there’s many country like that. You know, we have the, you know, it’s a right in this country that if you born in the US soil, you are a US citizen. I hope that never change, but now I don’t, I just, anything will happen.

[00:55:27] Flynn Rodgers: Sure. I, yeah, I, and I fully agree.

I guess, you know, if, if hypothetically he was able to pass this legislation, the first thing that really hit me of concern is like, okay, if you get rid of birthright citizenship, how are you now going to draw the line? Right? Or is it, is it gonna be..

[00:55:43] Luis: We’re going to go, we’re going to go in the back and forth because whatever he passed that is wrong. Eventually, you know, what comes around, comes around. ‘re on the top, that’s why you at least have to be careful what they do. Because when you do things that are completely, if you don’t do something that is not a compromise between two sides, it’s doomed to be reversed.

[00:56:04] Flynn Rodgers: Right. Yeah. No, , yeah, I see what you mean.

[00:56:05] Luis: That’s how it is. That’s why this country has been able to be who they are, who we are. Because we, we compromise here, but that stopped many years ago.

[00:56:13] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:56:13] Luis: There’s no compromise anymore and nothing gets done.

[00:56:16] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah. Yeah, that, that kind of used to be like the equilibrium, right? Of America that kept its kind of ship steady, where it was like…

[00:56:23] Luis: it’s about compromise, because everybody had to sacrifice something to move forward.

[00:56:26] Flynn Rodgers: Right. I mean, it’s, it’s basically a key pillar of democracy in general. I mean, beyond the U. S., you’ve got to compromise. Um So, goodness, I’m already on my final questions. Alright. This has been, this has been a great conversation. Honestly.

I’ve had, I’ve had an absolute blast . Um, now this, this question again, it’s like, you know, if you haven’t seen these statistics before, it must be like, it might be hard for you to put reason to it. Um, but I just wanted to ask, because this, this really kind of caught my mind. Um, so these were kind of 2022 statistics.

Um, and it basically was kind of outlining how, um, and the first example is like U. S. Dominican median household income. Um, and they were comparing that to, um, other immigrant groups, like other immigrant median household incomes. And then, um, kind of U. S. born, like household median incomes. And it shows that, um, The Dominican median household income is in the US, in the US compared to the other immigrant groups that that have their median household income.

And then the US born people that have that income median household. Sorry, it’s a big mouthful. But it shocked me because it showed it I saw The Dominicans are making, median wise, average, roughly 25, 000 less than both the other U. S. immigrant, the other U. S. immigrant groups and their median income and the non immigrant U.

12. households. And then it went on to further kind of show that, um, it started talking about poverty rates, where the Dominican American poverty rate in 2022 at least was 21%. Um, and in comparison to the general immigrant poverty rate, which is 14, and the native born American poverty rate at 12. Um, and I understand that these statistics, like, there’s so many factors, right, that lead to these kinds of numbers.

There is no one answer of what causes what. Um, and I, you know, I could kind of try to spitball in my mind maybe why, but I feel like I’ll always be kind of unaware to maybe other tangible factors. Um, but, I guess, are there any reasons you can think of, um, of why maybe these, it show, these statistics show that maybe Dominican, um, American families and people are struggling financially more than others?

[00:58:46] Luis: Hmm. That’s completely new to me. I don’t know.

[00:58:50] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:58:50] Luis: I don’t know if I have any answer for that.

[00:58:52] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah.

[00:58:53] Luis: I don’t. I mean, I’ve been here now 34 years. I, you know, and I’m pretty. I’m pretty active with when it comes to politics. I mean, since I became a U. S. citizen, I vote. I vote locally. I vote, uh, in, you know, you know, in the general elections and everything.

I do watch multiple news to get, you know, to get as much information about what’s happening. You know, I don’t get it just for one place. Right. Um, but the whole Latino community in the United States have changed so much.

[00:59:26] Flynn Rodgers: Okay.

[00:59:27] Luis: Um, since I’ve been here. Um, I don’t know. I don’t, I don’t have any answer for that.

That’s an interesting, that’s an interesting, I mean, uh, that’s a very interesting numbers.

[00:59:38] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah, I was, I was kind of Yeah, I was, I was kind of questioning it too, and, and you know what, you know what I’m gonna probably do, knowing me, I’m probably gonna, like, try to, like, dig deep on the internet and see, like, what are the causes, what are, you know, cause there, there’s gotta be some sort of tangible answer out there, but, um, it, it was just kind of interesting because,

It doesn’t feel I, I never got that sentiment, you know what I mean? Amongst the Dominican population. Like I, I, I didn’t, you know, there was never, I never picked up anything, um, of like, uh, potentially, uh, the average Dominican maybe being financially slightly worse off than maybe a native born, um, American or maybe another immigrant group.

But it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s interesting. You know,

[01:00:21] Luis: If you get some information forward, tell it to me. I like, definitely.

[01:00:25] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah. I mean, shoot.

[01:00:26] Luis: I don’t know. It’s, you know, no idea, but you know, when that’s the fascinating about reading stuff like that, because there’s so much going on with different cultural, different background and we don’t know until we actually read stuff like, “Oh, you know what, this actually happened in a while”.

Yeah. You never think about it.

[01:00:46] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:00:47] Luis: I mean, you know, just, just this election by itself. We, we have people voting. To, you know, to protect, to protect something that they’re also voting for the person who made it possible, to reverse that. I mean, this is the thing about it that you didn’t. This is the stuff that human human condition is very hard to read.

It’s very hard to understand.

[01:01:11] Flynn Rodgers: For sure.

[01:01:12] Luis: You know, people just, uh, somehow they can, they’re capable of not connecting the dot and believe it in one thing that they know they’re not even sure what they believe and doing something opposite what they believe.

[01:01:25] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:01:25] Luis: You know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s I’m, you know, I’m Paso.

I mean, what we’re going through right now as a country and seeing this whole politics played out, it’s just amazing.

[01:01:37] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah, it’s above all, it really just is. That like, you know, I mean, if you remove the positive or negative sentiments, I just, it really just comes off as like, you know, it’s just surprising, you know, we just, I..

[01:01:50] Luis: Hard to render how to really make sense.

[01:01:54] Flynn Rodgers: Yeah. And it’s that whole, you know, your mind is always trying to wrap itself around the issue and fully understand it. Um, and it, since, you know, like I just, I said earlier, like a lot of these issues, a ton of them are just. So multifaceted, there are so many factors like, like these statistics I have right here.

 

[01:02:14] Luis: That’s correct. There’s not, there’s not really one way at it. I’m sure though.

[01:02:17] Flynn Rodgers: And then, and then also, you know, you can probably pick out, um, perhaps some sort of factors or, you know, one factor or multiple factors that may lead to these sort of, sort of numbers or, or anything else in the political sphere of America, but.

It’s not like math, where you get to completely understand, like,

[01:02:34] Luis: No, no.

[01:02:34] Flynn Rodgers: Like, you might understand, like, oh, there’s a factor in this, but you don’t know what extent, right?

[01:02:39] Luis: I mean, we, you know, we are, there’s 21 countries, I believe, that speak Spanish. Yeah. It’s the most language, you know, with country in the world.

Yeah. And we are extremely different.

[01:02:49] Flynn Rodgers: Mmm. Yeah.

[01:02:50] Luis: We speak the same language, but we’re very different. Right. And interests are very different. And we are not even close to be united. In the past probably 10 years, the past three elections, that’s when I personally became to understand how, how divided we are too, you know, sadly, in my opinion, it was very depressing to, you know, to, to see that, you know, because, you know, it’s, it’s hard to, it’s hard to understand, but the reality that we’re very different, the reality is that what happening in one community of, if it’s happening with Dominican doesn’t mean it’s happening with, you know, it doesn’t mean it’s happening with other, other speaking, you know, speak, speaking Spanish, uh, uh, country that is living here. It doesn’t mean it’s happening the same thing. It is just crazy.

[01:03:46] Flynn Rodgers: Right.

[01:03:46] Luis: It really is, but.

[01:03:47] Flynn Rodgers: Oh man, it’s a, it’s an enigma. It keeps me, it keeps me studying. It keeps me curious.

[01:03:53] Luis: Dude, you’re young, you’re supposed to figure this out for us.

[01:03:55] Flynn Rodgers: Oh, yeah. Hey, I’ll try to come up with an answer for you, but that was my final question. This has really been just such a fun conversation.

[01:04:02] Luis: Glad to help you. Glad to help you.

[01:04:03] Flynn Rodgers: Um, yeah. You’re such an interesting person with a great perspective. If only I could pick your brain for longer, but I ran out of questions.

[01:04:11] Luis: I only talk about, you know, my own spirits, my own journey here, you know. You know, that’s, you know, that’s, try to be objective as much as I can.

[01:04:20] Flynn Rodgers: That’s, yeah.

[01:04:21] Luis: Know, not everybody can be objective 100%, but I try to be as high as I can, you know.

[01:04:26] Flynn Rodgers: All you can do is try.

[01:04:27] Luis: That’s all you can try.

[01:04:28] Flynn Rodgers: Thank you, Luis. This has been incredible.

I really appreciate it.

[01:04:31] Luis: Let me know how it goes.