Interview with Kajungu Mturi
Introduction
On November 8, 2022, I interviewed my Restorative Justice Professor, Kajungu Mturi. We conducted the interview in person at James Madison University after my JUST 345 class. The reason I thought of and decided to interview Kajungu Mturi was because of how he briefly talked about his immigration story in class. I knew that he had grown up in Tanzania, a country in East Africa, but I wanted to find out more about his journey to the United States. I also wanted to learn about how he became a JMU Professor and his education. When I asked him if he would like to be interviewed, he gladly accepted. Throughout my interview, I learned about his culture, family, and community dynamics, along with his life story.
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Methods
When deciding what questions to ask Kajungu, I wanted to focus on his life story and his immigration to the United States. I found that I wanted to keep the questions broad enough to allow him to answer fully about the topic. I started my questions in early childhood and worked through to the present time. This helped me follow the story of his life and gainbackground on his culture growing up compared to living in the United States today. I also decided to ask questions about his culture and how it was different adapting to American culture. For recording the interview, I loaned an audio recorder from the Carrier Library at JMU.
Interview Summary
Early life
Kajungu Mturi was born and grew up in Tanzania in East Africa. He is one of 6 siblings and said he grew up in a small house for the number of family members that he had. Neighborhood lifestyle was the trusting community he had, his parents didn’t always know where he was, but probably playing with other children in his neighborhood. He reflected that he did not like school growing up and that the teachers were rude and exercised punitive punishment. This culture in school involved very aggressive discipline, “I felt like I feared teachers. I didn’t respect them.” This kind of respect was cultivated out of fear that you had to respect teachers as parents or otherwise receive punishment. He compared this to the United States, where children do not respect teachers as they did in Tanzania. Kajungu remembered he had to walk to school and then walk back home to eat lunch, which was 9 kilometers (about 5 miles), while in primary school. Communities in Tanzania were vital to life, described as “if there’s a problem in the community, it’s not an individual problem, it’s a community problem.” The community would come together to solve it by supporting each other; weddings and funerals would be paid for or have items provided by the community.
Immigration to America
The first time Kajungu Mturi visited the United States was in 2007, to meet his wife’s family. Kajungu’s wife is from America, they got married in Tanzania and they came to visit her family for the first time. The next time he came to America was to study in college from 2009 to 2013. He said it was much more difficult to apply for a student visa than a travel visa. The first time he applied for the student visa, “The guy said no, and he did not say to see my documents.” The immigration office did not even look at his paperwork for the visa, they just denied him. After 2 tries and rejections, Kajungu was finally able toget a student visa. He was persistent and knew he wanted to get a college education in America. After he graduated from Goshen College, he went back to Zambia. After college he was not done with his education, he graduated in 2018 with a Master’s degree in Restorative Justice from Eastern Mennonite University. The privilege of gaining a higher education was not lost on Kajungu. He spoke about Africa, “if you don’t have a connection, you might not go to college.” Kajungu liked how in America if you are willing to go to college there are a lot of opportunities compared to Africa.
The reason Kajungu decided to stay in the United States and get his Green Card was because of the community he found in Harrisonburg, VA. “I realized there’s a big need of Swahili interpreter in this community.” This was during the time of Congo refugees immigrating to the United States. Kajungu speaks 7 languages, so he decided to stay and help asan interpreter in schools, social services, the justice system, and other areas. The immigrant community that Kajungu found in America convinced him to stay, but he also is a Professor at EMU and JMU. Kajungu and his wife have two children, one boy who is 15 years old and a girl who is 9 years old. He said that they decided to raise them respecting the traditional culture and traditions of Tanzania. “Even that’s kind of a combination, but we do a lot of traditional lifestyle at our house.” He also joked about his children liking American food more than food from Africa. He spoke enthusiastically about raising their children to understand and respect the traditional values he is teaching them.
When asked about adapting to culture in the United States and how it was different from East Africa, he said his hardest problem was eye contact. “I realize that if you don’t do eye contact, that means give my interpret that you don’t care what they’re talking about.” This was the hardest problem for him with social interactions because he explained that in East Africa, they do not use eye contact when talking to each other. “When I go back home now, and when I do eye contact with people, they say, why are you looking at me?” Kajungu also spoke about how he practices Christianity and it is different here in America. Even though practicing the Christian faith in both Tanzania and America, they are very different culturally. “I have a very big gap right now spiritually because of that, uh, the environment I grew up worshiping compared to what I have here.” This was one of the things he missed from back home, he said that it feels more passionate than practicing faith in America.
Conclusion
The journey of immigration is a different experience for everyone. Kajungu Mturi shared his experience with me, from growing up in Tanzania, coming to the United States for his education, and deciding to stay to help as a translator in Swahili for the community in Harrisonburg. He spoke proudly of teaching his children cultural values from Africa, even when raising them in the United States. Kajungu says that he feels accepted in America, and has very limited experience with prejudice against him in the United States. “I had a connection before I came through my wife, so…I go working some places I feel like very easily be accepted.” The “pull” to the United States for Kajungu was education and also his wife being from America. The learning opportunity that he gained in the United States was beneficial, he graduated with a Bachelors and a Masters Degree. He is able to teach college students about restorative justice which after taking his class, I definitely can see is one of his passions. The immigration journey by Kajungu shows that as long as you are willing to get an education, even if you have to go to the immigration office to apply for a visa 3 times, you can do it. Listening to his story about his resilience to get an education in the United States and also helping translate for the refugee community was inspirational to me.
Lilya Gardner: [00:00:00] Okay. Looks like we started recording now on both. All right. My name is Lilya Gardner and I’m a student at James Madison University. And today I’m interviewing
Kajungu Mturi: Kajungu Mturi
Lilya Gardner: and it is the November 8th, 2022. All right. Just to start off, um, when and where were you born?
Kajungu Mturi: Mm, so I was born, uh, in Tanzania, east Africa. You say when?
Lilya Gardner: Yeah, when?
Kajungu Mturi: Oh, long time ago. It was, I think it was May 25th, 1979.
Lilya Gardner: Okay. Um, where were your parents born? In the same,
Kajungu Mturi: oh, the same, the same country.
Lilya Gardner: Same country? Mm-hmm. All right. Um, can you please describe your childhood and what was like?
Kajungu Mturi: Um, so we are six children in my house, so we, uh, it’s, that’s a very broad question, but I will try my best to, to put it,[00:01:00]
Um, so we are 6 children in my family, and I’m number, number four. Yes, number four. Um, we lived together in very small place with that number of kids. And, uh, my childhood really, it was neighborhood, neighborhood lifestyle. So we wake up morning and go outside and play with kids. And uh, when we, we come back home that even that’s the time to eat.
Otherwise we are out there. Parents didn’t know where we were , so it is, it was like free bird, it just the door open, just go and then come back. And then sometime when my parents didn’t see me during the lunch, they knew I’m eating somewhere to the neighbor. So, because other kids will be eating at my house.
Yeah. Yeah. So,
Lilya Gardner: Did you attend school?
Kajungu Mturi: Yes. So I went to elementary school in the education system over there. It is different from here. So we have elementary school, which you call primary [00:02:00] school.
Lilya Gardner: Mm-hmm.
Kajungu Mturi: Is from grade one to grade seven, and we learned everything in Swahili, which is my language.
Lilya Gardner: Okay.
Kajungu Mturi: Except English as a subject.And the secondary school is shifting. So all subjects we are taught in English except Swahili, the subject.
Lilya Gardner: Okay.
Kajungu Mturi: So it’s kind of like, so primary school, all classes in Swahili, and when you go to secondary, all classes in English.
Lilya Gardner: So when you made it to secondary school, was it more necessary to have understanding of English at that point since everything was then taught in English?
Kajungu Mturi: Not really. Not really. So, So because they, we did exams to go, in order to go to high school, you have to do exams in. Mm-hmm, and we were doing those exams in Swahili, the same language you were learned, so after you passed, when you got secondary, that when they start to teach you. But really came to see everything.
Science in English, not in Swahili anymore. Okay. Yeah.[00:03:00]
Lilya Gardner: Um, what was school like for you?
Kajungu Mturi: Um, I didn’t like school, first of all.
Lilya Gardner: You didn’t like school?
Kajungu Mturi: No. Oh, I, I didn’t like school because, uh, for, for, for primary school. Um, Um, first of all, we were walking from home to school. It is from primary school, wasn’t far.
Um, so it wasn’t a big deal, but teachers were very rude. Rude. So I didn’t, yeah, so punishment was like punitive punishment. When you make a mistake, it’s punitive. Um, and uh, so we were going morning and uh, at 12 we went back home to eat lunch.
Lilya Gardner: Mm-hmm.
Kajungu Mturi: And then we go back to.
Lilya Gardner: Oh, okay.
Kajungu Mturi: And if your house is far away, it’s up to you as long as you have to be at school on time.
Right.Okay. Um, so that was, that was challenging part. But, and the secondary school, we, uh, it was far away. I don’t know how to [00:04:00] put it. I back home, we do kilometer, not mile miles. So from my home to, to secondary. It was like nine kilometer. I don’t know. In terms of mileage. You can, you can do, you can Google.
Lilya Gardner: I can do the math. Yeah, I can do the math.
Kajungu Mturi: So, so I, we were working morning and then come back. Yeah. Evening after the school over. So you can tell it wasn’t fun.
Lilya Gardner: Um, how were your teachers, you would say were different than American teachers per se?
Kajungu Mturi: Um,Yeah. That, I think I mentioned one, like discipline was very aggressive discipline.
Uh, it was kind of, uh, not good for kids, but um, it really, it has both sides. It really help us to, it was kind of respecting, but it was fearing. Mm-hmm.Okay. Because [00:05:00] for me , I felt like I feared teachers. I didn’t respect them.
Lilya Gardner: Right. Right.
Kajungu Mturi: Um, but we, we, we, we, we followed what they said. If they say, do this, we did, we didn’t argue with them at all because we took, for our culture, we took teachers as parents.
Lilya Gardner: Right. With the respectful.
Kajungu Mturi: Yeah. Okay. But I think here is totally different. Uh, there’s not that, uh, punitive punishment there is kind of. Taking care of them more than, uh, more than what, what we did over there. And uh, and, but on the other side, I feel like the kids don’t respect teacher over here. The teacher can say one thing, they just say back, which for me it’s not Okay.
Lilya Gardner: It’s very different culturally.
Kajungu Mturi: Totally different. Totally different culture.
Lilya Gardner: Right. Um, could you describe the community that you grew up?
Kajungu Mturi: Yeah. Do you know communities? So they, [00:06:00] you know, there’s one say American have been saying, but I don’t know if, I don’t know how many people know what it means. There’s one say that it, it takes a village to raise a kid.
I think that’s a very common,
Lilya Gardner: It takes a village to raise a what?
Kajungu Mturi: A kid. A kid.
Lilya Gardner: A kid. Yeah. Right.
Kajungu Mturi: Yeah. I think that is very famous, say from Hillary Clinton and everyone say like that. But what it mean that.The kid is kids’ community. Everyone is responsible for that kid. If I would do a mistake, anyone with the same age as my father can correct me.
I don’t have to wait for my father to come on the deal with me. Okay? And if I need anything, it’s be taken care for the of by the community. So for example, if there’s a problem in the community, it’s not individual problem, it’s a community problem. People come together, find the solution. If there’s a celebration in the community, people donate money if there’s a wedding.
Some, most of the time people don’t use their own money for the wedding. The community is [00:07:00] contributing.
Lilya Gardner: Oh, really?
Kajungu Mturi: So if there is a funeral, uh, you, the person who lost, who, who, who lost, who lost, got lost in the, the family member. Just people bring everything like food, money, every, everything is just a comfort to you.
Lilya Gardner: So the community really helps take care of
Kajungu Mturi: Very well
Lilya Gardner: Everyone within the community
Kajungu Mturi: Very, very well.
Lilya Gardner: Okay. Um, when and why did you immigrate to the United states?
Kajungu Mturi: When and why? Okay. That’s very good. So the, so for the first time I came to the US 20, 2007 or , Oh so my wife is from here. Mm-hmm. And, uh, we got married back in Tanzania and uh, I came to visit the family for the first time her family, and I went back. So initially, originally for, officially for the first, so apart of the, from that visitation, the first time I came there to settle a little bit, it was [00:08:00] 2009
Lilya Gardner: mm-hmm.
Kajungu Mturi: And I came to study.
Lilya Gardner: So you came over here to.Yes. And to meet her family or,
Kajungu Mturi: So I came the first time to meet with her family. Mm-hmm. and I went back.
Lilya Gardner: And then you came back.
Kajungu Mturi: And then I came back out to study. Okay. Yeah. So that was my first time. So now I’m going to America to do something that, to set over there then to do something for a long time.
Um, so I did my study for, uh, 2009 to 2013. Mm-hmm. and I went back to Zambia. And 2016 I came back to the us. So the biggest reason to brought me up to America, even though my wife’s is from here, I didn’t want to come to live cause of my wife. I came to study, but I got stuck now because the, the last time when I came I found a lot of Swahili community here and I felt like, uh, I can stay longer than what I, thoughts can work with this community more than, rather than go back to Africa where people African now today,
Lilya Gardner: Right! Mm-hmm. . Okay. [00:09:00] What did you study for those four years?
Kajungu Mturi: So my undergraduate, which I took in Goshen, it was, I even don’t remember the title of the course. It was Peace, justice, and the Conflicting Studies. Mm-hmm, that is my, my Bachelor. And then my master’s, which I took EMU at, he was, uh, masters in, uh, restorative Justice, which I finished 2018.
Lilya Gardner: Oh, congratulations.
Kajungu Mturi: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Lilya Gardner: . So when. Came back and decided to stay. It was because of the community you found here?
Kajungu Mturi: Yes.
Lilya Gardner: And was that influenced by your wife or was it just
Kajungu Mturi: Uh, not my wife. I don’t know if she played the part on that? No, I don’t think so. I don’t think so. First of all, even she want, she want to go back to Africa, but since we found a lot of, that’s the time when a lot of refugees were coming from Congo. They were living Congo, but from different parts of the, uh, refugee camp. [00:10:00] And they, I realized there’s a big needs of Swahili interpreter in this community. Mm-hmm. in schools, in social service and other areas. So, okay. Let, let me stay here
Lilya Gardner: So you stay because you can help interpret and, um, help within the community.
Kajungu Mturi: Exactly.
Lilya Gardner: Both. Swahili and her and restorative justice.
Kajungu Mturi: Mm-hmm.
Lilya Gardner: Okay. Perfect. Um, can you describe your immigration process? Were there any hardships along the way? Getting visas or No?
Kajungu Mturi: No. It’s crazy. The first time when I came to visit, it was easy. Mm-hmm, I, when I went to Immigrate, not to the ambassador, he just gave to me.He didn’t ask him much question, but when I asked, I went to ask for the student visa. That was a drama,
Lilya Gardner: oh, for student visa.
Kajungu Mturi: Oh yeah. It was crazy. I went to the first day for the first appointment. The guy said no, and he did not say to see my documents. And, uh, the second time, after three months, I think, or two months, I went and I found the bad thing.
I found the same guy who said no. [00:11:00] I said my, and uh, he said, you came here two months ago? And I said, no, what, what change do you have? And I told him, you didn’t, you didn’t see my document. You didn’t listen to me. And they said, . So he rejected the second time. So what I did the following day, I went back and they said, so you were here yesterday.
What change do you want? Tell me. And I said, uh, I just came to, I want to hear from you why you denied me. I don’t want to visa. I just want to reason cause I don’t want to blame you for my failure. And, uh, I said, they gave my document you didn’t want to. And uh, I just want to know the. and all time I was paying money maybe, maybe almost $200 per appointment.
Lilya Gardner: Wow.
Kajungu Mturi: Maybe even 200 or something like that. And uh, when I told him, he said, okay, come more and take your visa, of this. Yeah. So it, the student visa was complicated more than what I got [00:12:00] for this visitation event.
Lilya Gardner: Wow. Okay. So then do you now currently still have a student visa or a work visa
Kajungu Mturi: Now? When I came, uh, I have, I have a green card.
Lilya Gardner: You have green card? Okay.
Kajungu Mturi: Yeah, yeah. I, I applied for Green Card and I got green card because I knew I could not afford the tuition fee. I did something. So that’s when I applied green, uh, green card. That’s why I’m working. I’m teaching at JMU because of that.
Lilya Gardner: Glad you’re able to, um, what is one of your first memories from being in the United?
Kajungu Mturi: Uh, the festival the first time when I came to visit, or, uh, let me see. , I will say, you know, when you, when you are, we are back in Africa, they, they, we are told they America’s full of buildings everywhere. But when I was driving from Washington to see to [00:13:00] Virginia. I saw a lot of open spaces. I said, what’s going on here?
But this is mine now. But the biggest moment which I come to my mind is when I came for the second time and I was looking forward to sees snow, and I woke up morning and I found the whole area is white. And I said, what is this?
Lilya Gardner: So you had never seen snow before?
Kajungu Mturi: I saw on tv.
Lilya Gardner: You saw on tv, but not in first, not in person.
Kajungu Mturi: And that was 20. That was 20 oh eight. Wow yes. The, the winter of 2008. So I’ll not end that. I think that day it was very heavy snow. When I woke up morning, I found everything is white. I think that’s the biggest memory, the biggest.
Lilya Gardner: That’s that’s interesting. Um, what was also one of the biggest culture shocks.Oh. Um, when you first moved to the United States or visited the United States.
Kajungu Mturi: So, um, Um, I think [00:14:00] it’ll be communication. Not in my English by then, wasn’t good enough. Um, but that was not a barrier of not communicating because the little English I had, I, I used it. Mm-hmm.Um, but you know, back in my country, when you speak with someone, for example, here in America and the other part of the Western, when you speak with someone, there’s eye contact.
Lilya Gardner: Mm-hmm.
Kajungu Mturi: Okay. Which in my culture, we don’t have eye contact.
Lilya Gardner: Oh, okay. No, I did not know that.
Kajungu Mturi: I’m, I’m good nowadays on eye contact You. Cause I’ve been here for many years and I, I, I, but um, so when I was talking to people here and, uh, my wife was saying eye contact and I say, I can’t , you know,
Lilya Gardner: I can’t look at them!
Kajungu Mturi: Yeah, I can do that. I can just, and I realize that if you don’t do eye contact, that means give my interpret that you don’t care what they’re talking about
Lilya Gardner: Yeah. Or that you’re not listening.
Kajungu Mturi: Oh, you’re not listening.
Lilya Gardner: Yeah. That’s interesting.
Kajungu Mturi: That was the biggest one which I [00:15:00] made. I made a promise myself. I have to do eye contact as much as possible.
But the problem is when I go back home now, and when I do eye contact with people, they say, why are you looking at me ? So I have to shift my mind, oh, I’m in Tanzania now I have, I don’t need eye contact. And then I come back. I mean, like I have to do, so yeah,
Lilya Gardner: I need eye contact. Okay. Um, that’s interesting.
Um, do you have, did you have any problems adjusting to life in new country? I guess that your culture shock could be, yeah. Also with that, but did you have any like big problems? Um,
Kajungu Mturi: uh, um, do you know the thing is, compared to other people who came, didn’t have people here. Right. I had enough support. My wife is from here, so I had someone. to ask if I had any problem. Uh, so her family is here, her friends, so it, it, it wasn’t that [00:16:00] big issue. Mm-hmm. . And I think the, one of the thing, it was food. We have different food, which for me, food is not a big deal first of all, I don’t eat much. I don’t eat. But food adjusting adjustment was another thing. Um, because I grew up eating particular kind of food.
Like lunch did supper. Lunch. Supper is coming the same thing every day, right? And they coming here, first of all, to go to the restaurant and to see the list of the food over there. It’s kind of, I don eat because even make a choice of food, I find myself, I’m done eating,Yeah,
Lilya Gardner: Um, do you think that the opportunities for school and work, um, were better in the US or back home?
Kajungu Mturi: Oh, here in the US here. Oh, yeah. Uh, that is, that is clearly in the US education here is, uh, it’s really, really, really big opportunity in the work because [00:17:00] this is a thing, for example, back in my country, even to go to college is not easy.
Hmm. Uh, if you don’t have a connection, you might not go to college.
Lilya Gardner: Okay.
Kajungu Mturi: Um, that one. But here, going to college, it is just your willing, there is a lot of opportunity there is to go to community college. If you don’t have much money, you can go over there. There’s a lot of processes, skills you can do. You can, whatever skills you want to be, there’s opportunity here compared to back home.
But also even getting job back home mostly is not because of your qualification. , it’s because you have someone to connect you with that position. Mm-hmm. . And that why sometime you find some places, most of the places people are not qualified with, with particular job position are holding those positioning because of connection, not qualification.
But here, I think if you, you apply a job, they’re looking for qualification. Not who are you, which is what, which is something I wish we could have back.
Lilya Gardner: [00:18:00] So here it’s more qualifications, outweighing connections.
Kajungu Mturi: Exactly.
Lilya Gardner: And back home it’s more connections. Mm-hmm. outweighing qualifications.
Kajungu Mturi: And even at the education, the intro of education, you ask when you, and this is my treat, my my treat, it trusts me that it’s very bad.
Every, even, every part has a good thing and a bad thing. But, uh, there’s one, one of my friends say that, uh, when you come to American education, the education system is empowering you. They say that telling me what you. just what you think is valuable. Mm-hmm. But back home there is telling me, tell me what I told you.
So what teacher told you, you have to apply on paper. If you bring something you don’t, you, you are thinking it’s just, no, I don’t agree with that. So it’s kind of memorizing. We are memorize, memorizing is part of learning, but it’s become like I have to memorize what to say, not to apply what I’m thinking.
Lilya Gardner: Okay. Mm-hmm yeah, how were you received into American society?
Kajungu Mturi: I think it’s very well,
Lilya Gardner: Very well?
Kajungu Mturi: I [00:19:00] think so? Yeah. I have, I have a lot of connection and uh, um, yeah, I, I, as, again, I have my, I have, I had a connection before I came through my wife, so it is, was very, whenever I go working some places I feel like very easily be accepted.
Lilya Gardner: Good. I’m glad. Mm-hmm, um. Often have you gone back?
Kajungu Mturi: Oh yeah. So, um, I don’t have schedule to go because first of, I, I went last year Oh, by myself, and I went this year with my family, which does not, it doesn’t happen to go every year. So for the, so for example, I went, I went 2018 and, uh, I was here until 2021.
Mm-hmm. that when I, I, So even, I don’t know when I’m going back again, you know,
Lilya Gardner: Aw. At least you’re able to go back.
Kajungu Mturi: At least I want, I was able to go back. Yeah. Yeah.
Lilya Gardner: All right. [00:20:00] Um, what is your native language again?
Kajungu Mturi: Uh Swahili,
Lilya Gardner: And then when did you learn English? Just elementary school. Again. Rough or primary school? Rough estimate.
Kajungu Mturi: So, uh, I will not say when I was in primary school, I learned, I, I was, yeah, I learned my name is Kajungu . I’m from that broken English, you know, three second. Secondly, understand someone, and give me some more. Uh, but when I went to college, when I went to high school, just memorizing things, I was, I was, I was in the debate club in school, so at least I had the opportunity to speak my, my little English I have.
But I will say when I went to college, I went to college back home there before I came to, I came here, yes, it’s also, it was an opportunity to learn language, but when I came to America, I thought I knew English, but I realized I didn’t know much English and then later, I realized that there’s a lot of types of English right back in Tanza.
We speak British [00:21:00] English here, there’s American English, even though when sometimes people don’t understand between British English and American English, you know, so I took English class here in America just to make sure I understand the education system or English or what the kind of English is needed here.
So I had those bit from there, but I feel like taking class here and the US English class, My, yeah.
Lilya Gardner: Helped you master it.
Kajungu Mturi: Exactly.
Lilya Gardner: And actually knowing English.
Kajungu Mturi: Exactly.
Lilya Gardner: Um, what are the other languages that, you know?
Kajungu Mturi: So in my country we have more than 120 languages, local languages. Um, so I was counting one that I think in the class.
I said, but I think maybe I speak six languages. I think if I am, I’m right, six or seven, I think. And when I live in Zambia for three years, I learn another language.
Lilya Gardner: Wow.
Kajungu Mturi: Yeah,
Lilya Gardner: Uh, learning that many languages. Was it out of necessity? Because there are so many languages in your home [00:22:00] country?
Kajungu Mturi: So also because of where I was living, because we, even though my, I speak in my own language, not Swahili, that’s why the national language.
Mm-hmm. , I speak in my own language, but the area I come from, there’s other language we interact with them. Right. But also, do you know, in Africa we have something Bantu that that root the root of the many language in Africa. Mm-hmm. So I can understand the other languages cause of that route. Cause there’s some connection we have over there.
Lilya Gardner: Yeah. Yeah. That’s cool. That’s cool. That’s very interesting. I didn’t know that. Mm-hmm, um, how did you meet your wife?
Kajungu Mturi: Good question, whether she was my boss before
Lilya Gardner: She was your boss?
Kajungu Mturi: Exactly, yes. She was my supervisor back, back in Tanzania. So we worked, we worked together for, I don’t know, maybe three years before we thought about [00:23:00] relationship.
Mm-hmm. So she was, uh, coordinating, uh, program, health program, uh, and I was working and uh, her office. And then one point she came to America to study. and I went to college. And then when we went back to work, that’s when, uh, things changed.
Lilya Gardner: Yeah. That’s lovely. Um, do you have any kids?
Kajungu Mturi: Yeah, we have two children. We have a boy, 15 years and a girl nine years.
Lilya Gardner: Oh wow. And then were they born in America or,
Kajungu Mturi: uh, our boy was born in Tanzania.
Lilya Gardner: Oh, okay.
Kajungu Mturi: And, uh, our girl was born in America in Goshen, Indiana.
Lilya Gardner: Oh, wow. Yeah. Um, did you raise them to include your culture from back home?
Kajungu Mturi: Oh yeah. We are, we are doing that seriously.
Lilya Gardner: Oh, that, that’s nice.
Kajungu Mturi: Yeah. They, they eat traditional food, uh, and I think they like the traditional food more than the food,
Lilya Gardner: Than American food?
Kajungu Mturi: I think. No, I’m, I’m joking.
Lilya Gardner: Um, is it difficult to include culture? [00:24:00] I’m assuming they’re going to an American school. Mm-hmm. , you’re here. So if they’re going to an American school, is it hard to include culture or is it difficult for them to understand it at all, or you’ve just raised them since they were little?
Kajungu Mturi: I think we let, we let them since they’re little and uh, because for example, even though our son was born in Tanzania and uh, we came to America when he was two or three, I think. So he has that, that idea back home. And then, uh, we, we went to Zambia for three years. Mm-hmm. . That was very good. Uh, learning just to become, even though I’m not from Zambia in the same culture and, uh, coming back, so living in America in a back home.
We, we, we do, we do, we do live. Even that’s kind of combination, but we do a lot of traditional lifestyle at our house.
Lilya Gardner: Good. Yeah, [00:25:00] do you have religious faith?
Kajungu Mturi: Yeah, I’m, I’m a Christian. Christian.
Lilya Gardner: Okay. Yeah. Has it been impacted or changed at all since using, moving to the United States?
Kajungu Mturi: Yes. So, uh, we, the way we worship back home in Tanza is different from here.
Mm-hmm. and uh, uh, sometime. I don’t know if I should say this, but . It’s okay. No, no, no. Don’t turn it.
Lilya Gardner: I turn it off. No, no,
Kajungu Mturi: no, no. Uh, yeah, sometime I go to church and when in the service office, I don’t know what was going on. Oh, Yeah. So I remember one of my, one, one of my friend, he came to America. He came with one program, one, and they, I was sitting with them with the church and uh, we sang and the pastor preached and we almost time to go home and they get, are we done?
Is, did someone preach it? So even the preaching wasn’t like preaching. We knew. So how we practice the worshiping total different from back home there. [00:26:00] Mm-hmm. and, uh, I, I found myself, I have a very big gap right now spiritually because of that, uh, the environment I grew up worshiping compared to what I have here, you know,
Lilya Gardner: Do you feel as though it’s not as passionate as it was back home?
Kajungu Mturi: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s not very bad. That’s how I grew up.
Lilya Gardner: Yeah. It it’s different. It’s different. Completely different.
Kajungu Mturi: Yeah.
Lilya Gardner: So even though it’s, they’re both Christian faiths mm-hmm, it’s different culturally.
Kajungu Mturi: Totally different
Lilya Gardner: in the United States. Yeah. Okay.
Kajungu Mturi: Because back home there we sing a lot. And when I’m talking about singing and singing and dancing mm-hmm.
Okay. But here, Yeah. We singing him now and singing while we are sitting down, like you’re singing like you’re not connected. Oh, let me say we, we sing while we are connect, connecting, seeing with our body. Mm-hmm. like we sing with our body, not only sing by words, which I don’t do here. [00:27:00]
Lilya Gardner: Do you wish it was different here?
Kajungu Mturi: Uh, I wish so. I wish it could, it could be like that. But also I do respect how it is happening here. So, um, sometime I go to YouTube, I just feel home.
Lilya Gardner: Awe
Kajungu Mturi: Oh, there is where church is here in Harrisonburg which I used to go, but I stopped going because of my, my job. Um, there’s some, something happened I didn’t want to involve, so I, I said I can, I can, I can just be out of there.
Lilya Gardner: Right? Yeah, that’s understandable. Um, have you experienced any unfair treatment or prejudice in the United States?
Kajungu Mturi: Personally?
Lilya Gardner: Personally?
Kajungu Mturi: Oh, um, uh, let, yeah, maybe once or several have not prepared attention. But let me tell you one story quickly. I was driving one, I was driving. I don’t remember [00:28:00] the kind of the car the driving.
He’s very good car, I think not, I think it was very good car, . And, uh, I went to, with my son somewhere to the, to the, to the, to see the ducks somewhere. And uh, one lady came to me and she said, is that your car? So I said yes. She said how that your car? And for me, I thought some thing came to my mind there was if I was white with that car, she would not ask.
So for me, she didn’t connect who I was or who I am with the car, which was there, which for me it was not okay. But also later realized that’s how people not, I don’t know how, that’s how people, that’s how some people, uh, judge you, yeah. How they look like compared to what they have, which is not okay. Yeah. How some people view,Yeah.
Lilya Gardner: Others. Mm-hmm. based on how they look like
Kajungu Mturi: mm-hmm.But otherwise, I think that is, for me, that is very, I don’t not, I don’t [00:29:00] not say mine now. I don’t know to undermine that, but yeah.
Lilya Gardner: It’s very limited with that experience.
Kajungu Mturi: Exactly.
Lilya Gardner: You’ve had, yeah.
Kajungu Mturi: Mm-hmm.Mm-hmm.
Lilya Gardner: Um, if you could do over your life
Kajungu Mturi: mm-hmm
Lilya Gardner: Would you change anything?
Kajungu Mturi: For my entire life.
Lilya Gardner: Yeah, anything at all?
Kajungu Mturi: Oh, that’s a good impression. I, I usually appreciate what I’ve gone through. Mm-hmm. , even though it doesn’t mean that I’m, I’m happy with everything I went through, but I usually take, I’m happy that everything came to my life as a way of enjoying, but also as the way of learning.
If I will be, honestly, I will not change anything because everything happened before made me who I am. If could not happen, maybe I could not be who I want to be. So I will not change anything.
Lilya Gardner: Good answer. That was [00:30:00] just a fun question. That was however you wanna take it. All right. Um, what values did your parents stress growing up?
Any core values? Culturally,morally ?
Kajungu Mturi: No, I think the biggest value we had, I grew up being told is, um, the, I think the inch of respect is the biggest one. Um, the inch of respect, but underneath of that, to be certified with what you have at the moment rather than once, to, to, uh, try to, to, to need something which you, you cannot afford right now.
But the biggest one, I think the value they have. Respect is biggest important no matter who is coming to your life, uh, no matter their status. Uh, respect is one of the things which I grew up heard from the parents and see from the [00:31:00] parents, and I’m trying not, I’m trying, I’m working hard to, to pass over to my kids.
Lilya Gardner: Yeah, did that coincide with their expectations of you respect, just to respect other people?
Kajungu Mturi: Oh yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And uh, yeah, and for me, I think respect has a lot of things inside over there. Mm-hmm, for me, I usually believe in order to succeed, respect is the approach of, of success.
Lilya Gardner: Right. Yeah. Um,
Is there anything else you wanna share? Anything else culturally that you think is significant in differences between us?
Kajungu Mturi: Uh, the, the biggest thing which I can add here is, um, you know, culturally here is totally different, not only for to Tanzania, but a part, part of the world. So here [00:32:00] I learned, or I heard, and I’m seeing.
uh, time is most important than anything. Like everything should be done on time, which I do respect that though sometime. I don’t believe in that. I grew up knowing that, uh, social is more important than anything
Lilya Gardner: that what is social?
Kajungu Mturi: To socialize?
Lilya Gardner: Yeah. Oh, to socialize. Mm-hmm.
Kajungu Mturi: More important. Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay. So for me, sometime I, I, I don’t feel bad to be behind project. As long as I will socialize with someone that if the socialized was the reason to be behind, I know here they’ll say You are late. Yeah.
Lilya Gardner: It doesn’t matter. You missed the deadline.
Kajungu Mturi: Yeah. But for me, I late, for example, one day I was going, when I was student, I was riding my bike from my home to Goshen College and the one I was riding, I met with someone from Kenya and uh, we didn’t know each.[00:33:00]
He just, he saw me and I saw him. We thought we, can, we come from same place? We thought just, and he stopped to speak with him And by then I was support to be in the group project. So it was like five minutes to the meeting and from my home to the colleagues, like 10 minutes. So I start talking that without a guy for almost 30 min, 30 minutes.
Lilya Gardner: Oh wow.
Kajungu Mturi: You know, and uh, so I was led to the. Which I didn’t care, and uh, and uh, so they took I think some points for me to be late. But honestly, I didn’t care about the points. I was very happy to meet you, that guy, and that was my most important thing I could do that moment.
Lilya Gardner: Wow.
Kajungu Mturi: So I knew I would be late. I knew my group would suffer from my being led, but I took care of what I really saw is the most important.
Lilya Gardner: The consequences didn’t matter enough, but being able to socialize. Yeah. [00:34:00] Did. And being able to take the opportunity.
Kajungu Mturi: No,
Lilya Gardner: That’s very interesting. Yeah. I think if you have nothing else to share.
Kajungu Mturi: I don’t think so.
Lilya Gardner: Thank you for letting me interview you.
Kajungu Mturi: Yeah, no problem.
Lilya Gardner: It’s very interesting.
Kajungu Mturi: I thought it would be difficult to question you, but
Lilya Gardner: No, just about your life.
Kajungu Mturi: Okay.
Lilya Gardner: And immigrating.
Kajungu Mturi: Good. Thank you.
Lilya Gardner: Thank you
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