Marshmallows & Other Topics: From Egypt to America

Emily Zappone: [00:00:00] Okay. All righty. Um, who are you? Can you give me some background on yourself?

Denise Naguib: Sure. Um, I don’t know where you want me to start, but my name is Denise Nagib. I live in Washington, D.C. I am forty-nine years old, and I was originally born in Cairo, Egypt, and eventually immigrated to the U.S. twice. Oh, um, and, um, but I’ve been living here pretty consistently since I was a teenager.

Emily Zappone: Oh, awesome. I didn’t know that. So can you give me a little bit of background on that? You mentioned migrating twice. Do you mind telling me what ages both of those occurred at?

Denise Naguib: Sure. So the first time that my family moved to the U.S., we were, um, I was six-years-old. Um, and my parents had tried to, actually my dad had gotten his green card, uh, right before.

Right after he’d met my mom and he gave it up in, in the [00:01:00] lottery and like the green card lottery. Yeah. And then, uh, he gave it up because he just met my mom and he wanted to like, see where that relationship was going to go. So he and his buddy who had done it together, he, um, he told him, sorry, man, I’m going to just stick around for a while and see how that worked.

It works out. Um, and then my mom, I believe ended up getting sponsored through her brothers. So my, both my, my mom’s youngest of four and her two eldest brothers lived in Michigan starting when, in the 1960s. So they’d been there for a very long time. Um, one of them went to medical school and stayed in the U.S. to practice medicine.

And the other one was a professor at a university in Michigan. And so they’d already been there for a while. And then, my mom’s sister was in Canada. So my mom did it. Um, really want to like stay in Egypt because her three of her siblings, her three siblings were [00:02:00] gone. Right. And so it was kind of her turn to come.

And then my dad had, um, one of his brothers was in Canada and the other one was in Egypt, but eminently going to Canada. And so like, they really were seeing sort of the exodus of their siblings, um, even though both of them had, my grandmothers were both still alive at the time, but my, um, one, my. When my parents first started thinking about coming together after they were married, my maternal grandmother had passed, and so my mom didn’t feel like she needed to, like she had anybody else down, while her immediate family was no longer in Egypt, and so she really wanted to move.

So anyway, so they eventually got, um, must have gotten their green card papers, and I just remember my parents, uh, preparing for the move, um. And we were, um, my, I have two siblings, my older brother, younger brother, and I were all in school. And so I just remember we were going to move during the summer. And so we [00:03:00] finished out our school year and we moved to the summer.

And the first place we moved to was Michigan because of our two uncles that lived there. Makes sense. Um, and then we weren’t there very long. I want to say maybe nine months. And then, we moved to Minnesota.

Emily Zappone: Oh.

Denise Naguib: Minnesota. Yeah. Minnesota.

Emily Zappone: Minnesota.

Denise Naguib: My mom had, um, three kids. Close first cousins that lived in Minnesota also had been there since the 60s and 70s.

So like, just a lot of family who’d been pretty rooted in those two places. And um, because if I remember right, my parents had a hard time at the beginning finding really good jobs. My dad was an engineer and my mom worked in academia and like the administrative side of academia. And she had what previously worked for.

The Fulbright Commission? Do you know what the Fulbright Commission is? They, [00:04:00] um, when professors go on sabbatical around the world, um, each country that hosts university professors has like, through this, I think it’s an American program, the Fulbright Commission, they like help to facilitate these professors kind of living all over the world.

And so my mom was responsible for all of these professors living in Egypt. And so she had exposure and experience to a lot of professors. And anyway, so, there was a lot of interest in that, but anyway, she and my dad, we moved to the U S like I said, Michigan, then Minnesota. We had, I don’t know if this is too much for what you’re asking me.

Emily Zappone: It’s good.

Denise Naguib: I remember significantly severe weather. Like, yeah, like Cairo is pretty consistently just like warm and then like hot. I think of sun. Yeah, it’s like warm and then hot, like that’s kind of it. And you get rain like once or twice a year period.

Emily Zappone: Oh, really?

Denise Naguib: Yeah. And so going from that to, [00:05:00] we had, in Michigan and Minnesota, two hundred year winter storms, so like massive, significant storms. Tornadoes in the summertime. Um, anyway, my, mostly my dad, I’ll say, but my parents were like, out of their element. Like shoveling snow. It’s not their thing. Like, dealing with like, tornadoes, it was not, yeah, not their thing.

Emily Zappone: Do you know like, why your family moved here? Migrated mainly up north, like in Canada and like Michigan.

Denise Naguib: Yeah, great um so my two uncles went to Michigan because uh, because of medical school and then they uh, the professorship that one of them had so that’s what first drew those two in the 60s and and I don’t I think it was my older brother. My older uncle. My older uncle followed my younger uncle actually like there. Um, and then my, um, the [00:06:00] Minnesota one again was my mom’s first cousin.

She is a professor at St. Olaf, um, in Minnesota, St. Olaf, it’s where the golden girls are all about. Anyway, there’s university, private university there. And so she went early on to there and then like her siblings, followed her. And so it was like one person goes and sort of others sort of follow.

Similarly, um, with my, my, my aunt, my mom’s sister, she moved to Montreal. She was married to a Frenchman. And so, uh, French Egyptian. And so when they immigrated from Egypt, they went to Montreal because it’s French speaking, right? And so it was sort of an easier transition for them. And so that’s why they were all sort of there.

There’s significant, like, differences. Middle Eastern communities in warmer places. It makes a lot of sense. LA being one of them, but actually, Dearbon, Michigan is the largest Middle Eastern community outside of the Middle East. We didn’t live in Dearborn [00:07:00] but like in Michigan, it was very well known for a Middle Eastern community because originally, like in the 1920s, it started to be, um, popular for engineers to go there because of Ford.

So Ford Motor Company attracted a lot of Middle Eastern engineers. And engineering is a really, like, popular study in Egypt or in the Middle East in general. So there were a lot of, um, engineers. You know, young men being recruited in engineering to Dearborn for Ford. And then like that starts, you know, then they have families, you know, their extended families and all that.

Emily Zappone: Tell them to come on over!

Denise Naguib: Exactly. Exactly.

Emily Zappone: Oh, it makes sense. So do you, I know you were six-years-old when it first happened, but do you remember anything about like the migration journey? Like having to pack everything up, actually going over, like, any of those emotions if you don’t remember any like specific events anything like that.

Denise Naguib: I don’t remember like specific [00:08:00] emotions other than excitement. I definitely think we were all very excited. It was our first time to the US, like my parents had been here before but we had not been as kids. And so that was a pretty big deal. We’ve been on airplanes, but I don’t think we had left. Let me think here gosh, I should have asked my mom this, but I don’t think, I don’t think we had gone on an airplane until that first time.

And I think, yeah, it was before I was six. So it was before my sixth birthday. So that’s a pretty big deal, right? To like, go on an airplane, like across the world. Um, long flight for a child. I don’t think we had any idea. I think we had to go to Europe and then from there to, to, to, to, yeah, probably, you know, New York and then to Michigan, it was not a, no direct flight to anywhere.

Um, I remember packing up and I remember conversations around like what we could bring, because I remember we brought, we definitely brought a lot of suitcases, but we brought mostly like clothing and [00:09:00] um, I don’t think we could bring a lot of our toys because I remember very specifically, we had our family home, we weren’t getting, we weren’t getting rid of our family home.

In our family and so, um, our, so all of our stuff was there, like our furniture, like our toys would still be there. And I think I remember like my parents saying like, they’re here, you know? Yeah. I don’t know that they genuinely believe we were like coming back to them, like other than for vacations or something, but I don’t think they genuinely thought like it would be our home for much longer.

Yeah. Well, after we were in Egypt, I mean, sorry, in the U.S. for, um, just under two years. So it was about a year and three quarters, I think is what it was. So like it was at the end of summer. And my dad was like, I’m done. We’re going back to Egypt. And so I spent two school years in between Michigan, Minnesota, and then went back to Egypt for another two school years.

Emily Zappone: Wow. Yeah. Like, do you think that [00:10:00] was, you know, like that age period is like you’re developing a lot as a child. What do you think? The back and forth between America and Egypt. Was that, do you think that was hard for you? Like as you were growing up?

Denise Naguib: Yeah, it was really interesting. So I was in French school.

That’s when from, and my brothers were in a different, they were in an all boys French school. I was in an all girls French school. And it was run by nuns. Each of ours. Run by nuns, Jesuit nuns.

Emily Zappone: Awesome.

Denise Naguib: Very intense. And I remember one of the hardest things coming back was my Arabic had deteriorated.

Obviously, I wasn’t using it, and I was in French school, so I really only had Arabic, like, class one, class of the day. And so, even going there, you know, as an almost six-year-old, like, I didn’t have a ton of, like, base of Arabic as a language. And so, when I came back, I think the biggest shock was the transition to not being good at Spanish.

It’s a subject in school because I remember like really [00:11:00] liking school and I remember being really good at school. I never got reprimanded at school, but run by the, these, these nuns, like you got was back in the day with corporal punishment was totally okay. You got the slaps, like you got the ruler on the hands or the pencil.

Pencils between the fingers. Have you ever heard of that? You put pencils between fingers and they squeeze it.

Emily Zappone: Oh!

Denise Naguib: Yeah, it’s pretty brutal.

Emily Zappone: That’s awful.

Denise Naguib: So I just remember, like, not being good at Arabic, getting, like, failing tests and stuff. I definitely remember that, just only because of, like, walking, the embarrassment of walking up to the front of the class and getting, like, the slaps on the, the, on the hands.

So that part of it I remember. But my English was, was superb because I’d, you know, gone to the U.S. Yeah. My dad went to British schools. His whole life and so he spoke English to us and my mom had gone to French schools and so at home It was, like, all mixed language anyways. So Arabic was not, like, the thing we spoke to each other all the time anyways.

And so it was very, it was that mixed bag. Anyways, so that part of it I remember, [00:12:00] like, being a little bit traumatizing maybe. Yeah. Um, because I went back to the same school, and, like, it was the same, you know, it was the same age, so the same kids in the class, and, like, I don’t remember, like, missing a beat on the friends front.

Emily Zappone: That’s awesome. That’s awesome.

Denise Naguib: Part of it and like we, you know, we belong to like a sporting club, so like we all swam or did stuff together and so I don’t, that part of it, I don’t remember it being, uh, a challenge, but I definitely remember the language of Arabic being really tough.

Emily Zappone: My, one of the questions I have was anything that was unexpected or easy during either migration process. So would you say the language aspect is what sticks out to the most as like being tough? Like the unexpected part of that like losing that language.

Denise Naguib: Yeah, Yeah, because you know one would think like it should be my foundational language, right? You know, Egyptian, like I went there. Yeah, but if it was never like a part of my real like heavy part of my education.

It was really hard I remember the second time we [00:13:00] immigrated that my older brother had a harder time with English because he had so much, like, more French as a foundation, and so I remember that he um, started off, like, he, in middle school, we moved, he was, he would have been in middle school, and he started doing, like, the English, uh, English as second language classes. Or, like, class, like, it was one class per, per day, where, to improve his, like, English, but. Um, the hardest, I’ll say, when we moved back, so in 1984, so after the two years in Egypt, we moved back to the U. S. and it was part of the decision, I think that was the hardest time because that’s when my parents split up.

And so that was not only like moving to a, back to a different place than we’d lived before, away from the family that we had been really surrounded by, but moving to a whole brand new place, which is Oregon, with, without my dad. So it’s my mom and the three of us. We all had choice. We, after our summer in the U.S.

So, we were, we were in [00:14:00] between Canada and D.C. and other places. We were, had our like summer break and then my mom said, look, this is the decision I’m making. I’m moving to Oregon. Sight unseen. She had friends there as part of this Fulbright Commission experience and so she was like, you know, we’ve got people that you know that are gonna be there.

But that’s it. Just a couple friends. That’s kind of it. No family. Nobody. No family and no dad. Like, or, we can go back to Cairo, and so that’s when we had, I think, the biggest decision of our, like, you know, the fork in the road. My older brother was twelve, I was nine, and my younger brother was six, going almost on sevem.

Emily Zappone: That’s such a heavy decision for kids that age. Yeah. I don’t even know what I would’ve, I don’t know.

Denise Naguib: Yeah, my younger brother said, I want to go back to Cairo, and then my older brother and I said, we want to go, um, to whatever this place, Oregon or whatever it was like, wait, no idea.

Emily Zappone: Your dad was still in Cairo?

Denise Naguib: Yeah, he did not. So in order to keep our green cards, we had to come to the U.S. every two years. Like you can’t, [00:15:00] you couldn’t let more than two years left. So that was essentially why we came in the first place. That cycle was not, it was not initially intended to be, to move. So the second time we came, we came for the summer and then my mom made the decision that she’s not going back.

And then it was up to us to decide what we wanted to do.

Emily Zappone: Mean, I guess that’s better than just saying you’re coming with me or you’re going there, you know?

Denise Naguib: Mean, I don’t, I, I, listen. It’s just a heavy decision. It was a big decision, yeah. It was a lot, a lot, but I’m, you know, my life could have been totally different, but I’m happy that we did what we did.

My younger brother ended up changing his mind the day or two days before his flight.

Emily Zappone: Oh, wow.

Denise Naguib: So he ended up sticking with, with us.

Emily Zappone: I mean, I think, I think if my brother and sister were staying here and it was like, all right, well, I’m going across the world. I think I would be like, just kidding. Yeah, that’s hard. That’s hard.

Denise Naguib: I mean think of, he was even younger, right? Yeah. To be able to make that decision.

Emily Zappone: Yeah. My mind can’t process that. I know, I know. What do you think? Was the biggest cultural difference that you experienced [00:16:00] besides the weather when you first moved or when you went to Oregon? Like what do you think?

Anything that like stuck out like the language is obviously yeah, we’ve touched on that. But any cultural norms do you think.

Denise Naguib: I think one of the hardest things that I remember being so fundamentally different is like the social norms of family so like for us like we always had like, our friends were our family, our family were our friends, like, everywhere you went, you went, you were invited to family’s house, friend’s house, like, all the time, you know, like, multiple times a week, you were, you know, at somebody’s house or somebody was at your house for a meal, like, no doubt about it, it was always happening.

And I remember that fundamentally being different. Initially when we were in Michigan, Minnesota, yes, you would see the family, but it was few and far between, maybe once a week. At best, right? But like, everybody sort of had their lives, right? Everybody was running and doing their thing. [00:17:00] Cairo is such a huge city, but still, like, everybody sort of felt close, if you will.

Um, and that, but it, when we were in Michigan, Minnesota, everything felt, like, really far apart, and, like, people were far apart. And so that, that cultural change, I definitely remember that. And then it got even more, um, extreme in Oregon because we had zero family around, like literally not a single person that we knew that was blood related to us, like was anywhere within even a flight, you know, that’s, you have to get on a plane to see anybody.

And so, so that started to sort of pivot sort of the, the way that we, you know, the, the way that we sort of managed ourselves and each other, right. Like, instead of like, you know. Grandparents or aunts and uncles or cousins or whatever just being around or, you know, we also had, you know, we were probably a middle, perceived as a probably middle class family when we were in, um, in Egypt [00:18:00] and, you know, in a, in that kind of environment you have, you go to private schools, you have like full time care or, you know, at home.

Somebody who’s like cleaning and dealing with kids stuff, you know, on the regular. And that was definitely not the case at all in the U.S. Like my mom had to learn to cook for the first time.

Emily Zappone: Yeah.

Denise Naguib: She’s still working on that, but like that, right. Like that, that idea of like, oh, like you’re, I don’t want to say alone, but like, there’s definitely a lot less like of a support network to do all the stuff, you know, around.

So I think that was probably the biggest cultural shift. Um, it was interesting. One of the things that I share with people is that, you know, the people say, ph, you know, what’s your husband’s last name? Because my husband and I have different last names and I say like, you know, his last name is Mina.

Mine’s Naguib, but it’s only in the United States that people have like, well, [00:19:00] I shouldn’t say that in Egypt. It is very uncommon for a woman to as, as conservative as it is. It’s very uncommon for a woman to take her husband’s last name. Yeah. As opposed to how to keep her own. It was only because we were immigrating, and in the United States, the law was that if you were immigrating as a family, you had to have the same name, that my mom changed her name to my dad’s name.

Before that, she was never, like, she was in her thirties before, and had been married for a decade, before She went by my dad’s name and it was only because of U.S. law. Wow. Um, I don’t even know if it’s still a law, but it definitely was then. And the other thing that was really interesting just from a immigration perspective was because she was head of the household and not my dad, we, while she could get her green card turned into a citizenship after five years in [00:20:00] in the U.S.

We couldn’t until we were 18.

Emily Zappone: Oh, interesting.

Denise Naguib: Because she was head of the household. If it was, if my dad was head of the household, then as soon as he got his, then anybody under eighteen would automatically have gotten their citizenship. And so that was a really interesting. So basically my, my older brother got his citizenship.

He had, you know, we, at that point he’d been a citizen for, well over like nine or ten years when he turned eighteen. And then my mom waited for me to turn eighteen. So I had been like almost ten or eleven years. I’d been a, not a citizen. Sorry. I had my green card for ten or eleven years and then she waited for me to get my, we got our citizenship together.

Like you go through the test and the swearing in and all that. Yeah.

Emily Zappone: We did, um, in class we talked about the test and, um, how one of it is like, can you. I’m about to get this wrong. It’’s like, can you name all the amendments or something? Can you name all like, yes I was like, I don’t even know, it’s hard like, um we went through the questions of the [00:21:00] citizenship test and I was like I couldn’t pass these now. Like I’ve been in, I go to American school, and I couldn’t I couldn’t tell you any of these. I could tell like God bless America and that’s about all I could do like I couldn’t do anything else.

Denise Naguib: Yeah. No, it’s funny. I say that because I helped my in laws Prepare for the test like, less than ten years ago. And I was like, dang, guys, this is still hard. I remember it being hard as an eighten-year-old after going through AP history in high school. And so I was like, wow, it;s, this is hard. Yeah. It’s a lot.

Emily Zappone: Some of these are like a little niche in a sense, you know?

Denise Naguib: Yeah. It’s just a lot of memorizing stuff.

Emily Zappone: So do you, is your dad still back in Cairo? Do you visit him at all?

Denise Naguib: Oh yeah.

Emily Zappone: That’s awesome. Do you try to like go up, like on a schedule in a sense, like, is it like every summer, every year?

Denise Naguib: It used to be. So when we were, um, when we were kids, uh, we would go every other summer and we would spend the whole summer with my dad.

And so that was a [00:22:00] really good time. And my, my, uh, paternal grandmother was, uh, alive most of that time. And so we, and he, he moved back in with her to help her as she was getting older. And so it was like my maternal grandma, paternal grandmother, my dad, and us like for the summer and we would go on adventures and experiences.

It was really the first time I saw like saw Egypt. Yeah, it was like as a really a summer tourist with my dad. Yeah, um, but yeah, my dad is still there. Um, his siblings are still in Canada and um then when I finished high school, in college, I ended up going during Christmas break because it was the longest stretch because it was like three weeks, right?

So long, yeah. Um, and so we would go most, most, like, winter breaks during college.

Emily Zappone: Makes sense.

Denise Naguib: And then when I started working, I ended up also having, like, winter break, even extended winter break, sometimes like six weeks. Um, because I worked out on an island that was cold [00:23:00] and closed during the winter months.

And so, um, so I would spend a good, you know, month or something like that during that time. So I probably went between element, like from the time I immigrated until I like started being like a full, full-time employee was, let’s say you’re probably fifteen years. I probably went like ten times.

Emily Zappone: That’s a lot. How, how long is that flight? This is just a curiosity question.

Denise Naguib: From Oregon, from Oregon and back in the day, we used to have to go Portland, Oregon, either usually to Seattle or L.A., and then to New York or yeah, New York mostly. And then New York to Europe somewhere, London, Rome, somewhere, and then to Egypt.

And that would be like thirty hours. Now there are direct flights from D.C.. That’s still pretty intense though.

Emily Zappone: Yeah. So do you still try to like, get [00:24:00] out to Egypt when you can? You still try to make that time?

Denise Naguib: I’ll be there next month.

Emily Zappone: That’s awesome. How long are you going for?

Denise Naguib: Uh, two weeks.

Emily Zappone: Oh, that’s fun!

Denise Naguib: Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Zappone: Are there any traditions or cultural practices from Egypt that you try to maintain, whether it’s with yourself or with your family today?

Denise Naguib: Um, definitely. I mean, almost everything will surround food because that was a pretty foundational element. So there is a common dish that we used to have.

It was generally like our Sunday dinner. In Egypt, if you go to a Christian-based school, then you have Friday and Sunday off. That’s your weekend. Makes sense. And you go to school on Saturday.

Emily Zappone: Oh, really? Okay. Cool.

Denise Naguib: Because Friday is the Muslim holiday off, and Sunday is the Christian holiday off, and so you go, yeah, so you go Monday through Thursday, and then you go Saturday.

And so Sunday was the day we would have this infamous dish, and it’s a jute, jute plant? Do you know what jute is? They make [00:25:00] rope out of it, but it looks like mint leaves. It’s like that shape. And you chop it up and you have it with like a broth. It’s like very, excuse me, acquired taste because it’s really like slimy.

Like when you cook it in this way, it has like this kind of gelatinous almost like, um, oh, what’s a similar, um, okra. Okra. It has that slimy texture. I know. Yeah. Similarly like that. And then you would have it, you can have it over like a bowl of rice with like, um, we have it with chopped tomato, cucumber, like vinegar salad, and then chicken.

And so like that’s, in, in the old days it used to be, it used to be, um, rabbit, sometimes duck. Yeah. Um, and then this Molokhia is what it’s called, Molokhia, and then like the rice and the, and the veg. And so that is pretty, uh, common meal that we used to have a lot as we were kids. And we try to do that, we call it Molokhia Monday, like instead of Sunday, we try to do it [00:26:00] on Mondays, like a couple of times a month.

Emily Zappone: Yeah. And have you taken your son like to like where you grew up and everything? Have you like introduced him to that part?

Denise Naguib: Yep. Yep. Yep. He is now, let’s see, this. This time he was going will be his fourth trip to Egypt as an eleven-year-old. So he’s got some good, good exposure. Um, we, he’s definitely, so when my mom is there, she’s staying at our family home where she grew up, and then we grew up and then my dad lives at his, uh, where he grew up in his home.

And so, um, and they’re like a couple blocks from each other. So, um, Oliver and we, you know, see each other in that in those areas, and then we also go to my husband’s family home.

Emily Zappone: I was gonna ask about that. Is he from a similar area, or I’m not familiar with the geography of Egypt.

Denise Naguib: No, he’s from Cairo.

So it’s all Cairo, but it’s like giant Cairo, and so we are like in a different neighborhood. Which is, you know, half an hour away. [00:27:00] It’s like a different neighborhood. Um, but he grew up in Kuwait. And so he always had a family home in Cairo because he’s Egyptian. But he grew up in Kuwait until the first war.

But anyway, so that’s, so yeah. It’s his, it is his family home but it’s like his second place that he like really lived. Um, but yeah, so we spend, we spend time there. We regularly, you know, see grandparents and stuff. We spend time there. Other traditions, um, let’s see, I’m trying to think of other things that we do that are like, so, um, jewelry wise, it’s pretty common to have a cartouche, which is like your name in hieroglyphics, like the ancient hieroglyphics language. And so that, that’s a, you usually get like a necklace at some point in your life. Very young childhood with your name on it.

Supposed to, like, resemble, you know, your memory and of your, of your roots, right? Egyptian cultural [00:28:00] roots. Like, ancient Egyptian cultural roots. So that’s a pretty common, um, tradition that carries forward.

Emily Zappone: I was gonna ask, um, I had a question that I was like, ooh, this is gonna be so good and I totally forget it.

Um, when I was in. London, we went to the British Museum a lot. And it’s a fascinating museum until you take a step back and you realize like how awful it actually is. There’s a section like on that ancient Egypt. And they have everything in our, we did a couple tours and each time the tour guide told us it was haunted.

They said that section is haunted because it’s haunted. Yeah, it’s all stolen and you know, it has all the symbolic meanings and then it’s stolen and everybody’s like upset and everything and apparently there are ghosts in the museum and um, that was my question. That was just a little anecdote.

Denise Naguib: Yeah. No, it’s really interesting you say that. So when I first moved to Oregon, I remember very clearly most. If most of the [00:29:00] kids there had never, like, really left the state, like, maybe they’d gone to, like, Seattle, like, cause it’s like four hours there, or maybe Idaho, but, like, most people had not gotten an airplane.

So, like, you can imagine I was pretty nervous. Exotic to them like, you know, it was very odd character, right? I mean there was a lot of Mexicans in the community and then a lot of Caucasians and it was quite interesting because a lot of people thought well, they kind of look a little like they could be Mexican, but their hair is different.

You know, they definitely there’s something different about them. Anyway, so there were a lot of really funny questions that came out. I mean, you know, nine, ten-year-old kids, like, but like, are your grandparents buried in the pyramids? And like, have you seen a mummy? Like that kind of stuff, right?

Emily Zappone: Which is kids, kids act.

Denise Naguib: Yeah, totally. I mean, it’s a four, it’s, it’s just such a foreign, foreign concept. The fact that we got there on an [00:30:00] airplane, like most of them hadn’t been on airplanes. So I think that part of it was pretty like, intriguing for a lot of people like there’s just this idea, you know of this foreign land.

Emily Zappone: Yeah was there you mentioned there were Mexican kids were there? Oh, is there like a an immigrant community in Oregon?

Denise Naguib: Like mm hmm.

Emily Zappone: Yeah, did you like connect with them at all? Like did you find like kind of like, hey, we have like similar experiences in a sense over like maybe the white kids at this.

Denise Naguib: Interestingly, no, because most of the immigrant community there had come up to Oregon for, um, agricultural work.

So it was like Oregon, they grow a lot of stuff. And so that’s why most of the immigrant labor there were, you know, for families who had, were working the land, agricultural land around, um, and so that there wasn’t like a connection from like a family to family perspective, [00:31:00] plus there was a language barrier.

I mean, a lot of people, we had like our closest neighbors, um, were a huge, um, immigrant family who were second generation. So their grandparents had come from, from Mexico, but like, at the kid level, there was definitely like, we all spoke to each other in English, but at the grand, at the parents and grandparent level, so like my mom talking to them, like they were mostly Spanish speaking.

Um, and so I think there was a barrier there just in terms of the ability to be connected to that community. Um, and my mom, cause she worked in academia. Like most of the people around her were academics. And so like we ended up like more socializing with her, like, again, because we, as I mentioned, we didn’t have like family around.

So like our family, our chosen family were really like my, the people, my mom worked with, and then like some of my [00:32:00] friends and their parents, one of whom was, um, a family who I’m still. Very close to today forty years later. Her mom was an immigrant from Palestine and so like and her dad was American, so like we connected with them and then you know another family that was you know, my mom worked with her mom and so there was a connection there.

Emily Zappone: I have a bit of a side question, um, real quick. And if you don’t know the answer, that’s totally okay. But we talk about in class a lot how people over in different countries they get these degrees in like academia and they struggle finding jobs in America when they migrate due to like whatever restrictions, however, the degrees differ like even though an American could go over and teach English to children without anything. Do you think like your parents experienced that at all?

Denise Naguib: Yeah, especially my dad as I mentioned he was an engineer he is an engineer and he is, he had a very good job, like leaving and left it, left Egypt with, you know, [00:33:00] a really good job and a really good degree and, and level of understanding. And he had a really hard time finding a job initially in Michigan.

That’s why we moved to Minnesota was because there was like a better, it was during the early eighties, which I know you don’t know a lot about that time, but it was definitely like a lot of economic, like, um, Challenges the U.S. major. And, um, unemployment, like it was a really, really tough time to like be in America full stop, let alone be an immigrant in America.

So the jobs were few and far between to begin with. And so that was one of, I think, probably the biggest reasons my dad had such a hard time in the U.S. was because he moved here, I think, with the expectations of the greater opportunity at that, yeah, when he really had, like, had it way greater in, in Egypt and he left that, and his mom, right, as I said, she was still alive, so he left that, um, situation to, like, [00:34:00] not get a good job, not feel like he could be, like, the contributor to the family that I’m sure he wanted to be.

Um, I think my mom is, she’s pretty like flexible person and I think she found, found her way. Um, but again, I, I think that she was probably doing like a lower-level job than she could have been doing.

Emily Zappone: That’s hard. You mentioned, um, when you were in school and these kids, found your look to be like exotic or foreign. Um, any of the time, like just growing up, did you experience any like racism or like discrimination or just in public?

Denise Naguib: Yeah, it’s funny. Cause I, I don’t think I like recognized it at the time. Right. Um, but as I said, it was like a primarily like really white and then Mexican. We had one black family in our community and so I can’t, I can’t really imagine like what they were also going through, but like we were just like odd, you know, we were none of those things.

I, [00:35:00] we were not white, we were not Mexican and we were not black. And so like people just looked at us like with confusion. And so I think that was part of it. Um, I think there was just this like, um, you know, we were, it was, we were also with a single mom. So that was also another layer of that, you know, world.

Um, And then it was, our English was fine. Like I said, like my brother went and did go to ESL, but I think he was nothing, but like it was, that wasn’t the issue. Wasn’t like a language barrier to get around. What I think was an issue was, um, because of the academics that I’d had before, I didn’t have to go to like a bunch of my classes in elementary school.

I like to go hang out in the library because they were like, you already know how to do that stuff. Like I was already kind of past, I like, like tested out or whatever, like out of a bunch of the stuff. And so, um, as a kid [00:36:00] that also just like, puts you in an even weirder camp, right? And so it’s like, oh my gosh, yeah. So it’s hard to know, like, was it racism or was it just like, because you’re just odd? Yeah. But I mean, um, yeah, I had, I remember having a really solid group of friends, but I remember having some people that I could look back on today after with a little bit more hindsight and be like, oh yeah, they were totally racist.

Like, you know, yeah. But I don’t remember it impacting me up until, until I was in college.

Emily Zappone: Oh, interesting. Um, so these next few questions, they’re like the ending questions, but they kind of take more, they’re kind of a bit heavier in a sense. So, um, feel free to just skip, if you can’t answer, I want to come back.

Denise Naguib: No worries.

Emily Zappone: Um, so the first one is, are there any stereotypes about immigrants that you’d like to challenge or dispel based on your own experience or what you’ve seen?

Denise Naguib: Yeah, I think the, the, like the, um, academic rigor slash like knowledge [00:37:00] and what immigrants come in with like there’s always, I think, a perception that they are less educated.

Yeah. And I think that that’s fundamentally flawed. I think if you look at the United States holistically, you can see that. A significant level of higher ed is actually associated with immigrants. Um, and so I think that’s a, an interesting perspective, you know, that we felt and, you know, like I said, like so much so that I was like not taking classes because I was, I had already gotten such a better education before coming to the U S the American school system.

So that was, that’s an interesting one. Um, I think just in general things like, you know, they’re not clean. They’re not this. They’re not that. Like, it is, I’m sure, like, with anything, there are elements of truth in it all, but I think part of it is the differences, right? And so, like, um, nobody would come in and say our house wasn’t clean, but people would definitely come [00:38:00] in and say, like, oh, that green soup is, like, slimy and weird, right?

Like, so I think that’s an interesting thing. It’s like, well, then does that make you, like, better or worse? I don’t know. Um. I also think this idea of immigrants, um, not having, not assimilating, right? Like the idea, like, well, they need to like blend in is so hard because like, there is value in blending. And of course, because it will make, you know, other people feel more comfortable, right?

But if it’s at the expense of losing one’s own identity or something really cool and unique that you bring to a community that’s different and that can help others also see different worlds around them. I think that that’s a sad miss that people unfortunately and I’ve heard it from so many immigrants They’re like, yeah, like my parents wouldn’t speak to, um, so it wouldn’t speak to us except in English, because they didn’t want us to be, yeah.

You know, and so then you [00:39:00] lose the native tongue. Like that idea or like, you know, the cultural norms of your childhood like disappear because they wanna be American. They wanna blend in. And blend in, you know, like we had, and it was Thanksgiving, so like. We had Thanksgiving because like that’s what everybody else was doing.

But like, we didn’t know what the heck it was. We didn’t know what these foods were. Like everything was just so weird. I’m like still very confused about marshmallows on the top of something. But anyways, that’s forty years later, right? Like, but at the same time, it’s like, what we’re going to have like our slimy soup for Thanksgiving Day like that.

I think that would have been like looked up and frowned upon. So I think there’s some really interesting perspectives on like, what is that balance between not sticking out like a sore thumb, but also not blending in so much that you lose yourself in the culture and that.

Emily Zappone: Yeah. [00:40:00] I, I don’t know. It’s hard.

Cause you know, I think when you’re younger, you, I obviously don’t have that experience, but I have friends who, their parents immigrated, and growing up, you know, you don’t understand the nuances of it, but now looking back, I’m like, dang, maybe like when I did go over to their house, I should have engaged in that with them.

It’s hard to know. It’s so hard, and it’s, it’s, it’s hard, and you know, I’m trying not to be regretful looking back, but like, especially being in this class, it’s like, making me realize like, oh, dang, like maybe, you know, I missed out on an opportunity with my friends when I was younger. Um, and the immigration process now, I’m guessing, is so much different than what it was when you were younger, or depending on what area you’re coming from.

But in your own personal experience or opinion, what do you think the U.S. could do to make that migration process, um, easier, more supportive, or even more inclusive?

Denise Naguib: Well, it’s interesting because, like, I went through it obviously, and then I helped my in laws get their citizenship, like, in their [00:41:00] 70s, right?

And so, like, a very different thing. But it’s really interesting how, um, and I guess, you know, you think about it like, okay, you immigrate, you get your green card, like you live in the country for, you know, period of time. I don’t know how many, it used to be five years. I think it might be like six or seven now, but I don’t know if there’s like a handbook like, like how to like, like how to like function in this space.

And some of this stuff, like, I’m sure there are things I’ve just like missed. I mean, it’s, it’s a big joke. Like with my, colleagues about like how I miss all these like social norms or like, um, common TV things or whatever, you know, like, but if I didn’t grow up with them, it’s hard to, it’s hard to know like that you’re missing it until, until you’re like out of a car, you know, you miss stuff in a conversation.

You’re like, wait, what are they talking about? Like, so, I mean, I don’t know if there’s a way to like, [00:42:00] um, you know, help immigrants like understand some of the like cultural norms in a way, but also encourage them to also celebrate who they are and the fact that we are, you know, we are a, um, a country made of immigrants and like that’s so cool and special and you can’t say that about a lot of countries. I mean, I could probably like find a handful of people who technically are immigrants in Egypt, mostly expats, that are there for a period of time and then they leave but not immigrants really and so you know you think about it.

It’s like not reciprocated in so many countries. And so it’s hard. It’s hard to know what to do it’s hard to know how to behave. It’s hard to know what’s expected of you and I think that possibly impacts some immigrants abilities to thrive, right? And so I think this idea of how do you like create a little bit more of a level playing field by helping [00:43:00] people who don’t have that foundation to come in.

And I think it’s different if you’re, you know, if you’re coming in as a six-year-old versus an eighteen-year-old versus a seventy-year-old, right? Like there are different things, but yeah, I don’t know if there’s, I, I, I, I, I don’t.

Laws are really complicated, though, right? So that’s the other thing too, is like, knowing what to or not to do, what rights you do or don’t have, some of those things, and because it’s different state by state, to just compound everything.

Emily Zappone: Yeah, yeah. I guess kind of going off on that, how do you think your experience has shaped your perspective on global or social issues?

Denise Naguib: Well, while I really hope I’m sure this isn’t a hundred percent true, but I really do hope that like being a foreign national that’s lived and worked in lots of places around the world, I feel like I have, I’m more open to thinking about there’s a [00:44:00] different way to do something or there’s a different perspective that somebody brings to the table or how, especially working for a, uh, international company.

Like, have we thought about, have we brought the perspective of others around us who are not based in this culture to the conversation? Um, and so I think that I, I feel a little more open. I like, love traveling. I’m like always up for going, uh, somewhere and exploring somewhere new and learning about some somewhere else.

And I think that part of it is just, you know, um, comes with the, the fact that I started my, my, my life somewhere else. Right. And wanting to go and explore and be just really curious. And, um, I see that now in my little one, you know, like the want to just be like, where are we going next? Or where is this on the map and where are we going to go?

And like, the world is so big and I feel like there’s so many cool things that we can all experience. And part of it, I mean, there’s this old, [00:45:00] old adage of like that culture, you know, cultural travel makes you more of a tolerant person. And it’s beyond tolerance. I think it’s about respect and like being able to like understand that the world is bigger than you and

Emily Zappone: It opens your eyes to other experiences. Um, our last question: Do you think that migrating has shaped who you are as a person today? Um, and where you are, whether that’s in your personal life or your career?

Denise Naguib: Yeah, absolutely. I think that I, I think it’s definitely shaped who I am. I’m sure I would have had a really good life in Egypt.

I’m sure I would have had a good job and you know, you know, all the things around me that I want may have needed the hardship of leaving one’s home country and tackling this new world and having, you know, in the process, like my parents split and being raised by mostly by a single mom and those hardships of kind of working, you know, working through what she went through.

[00:46:00] Wanted to, in order to give us the opportunity that especially me as the girl in the family would not have likely had the freedoms and the abilities to be me versus the wife of somebody, um, I think really fundamentally changed my life and my ability to be whatever I wanted to be. Um, as opposed to, you know, not to say, I mean, there, there are definitely some strong women in Egypt, no doubt about it.

But I think the norm is that you behave a certain way, even if you are a strong woman, behave a certain way, your priorities are, you know, to be the wife and the daughter and this and not to be that. So I think that the, that’s, I know that that’s the case in many places, but I do believe that this opportunity opened a lot of doors for me to be,

Whatever it was that I wanted it to be.

Emily Zappone: That was awesome. [00:47:00] That was really well said. Thank you for your time, Denise. I really appreciate this.

Denise Naguib: Thanks so much, Emily.