The American Dream: Safety, Schooling, Self Expressionism, Success

Okay.

 

Welcome to the interview project.

 

Can you tell me your name real quick

 

just so I can have it down? Full name?

 

Yeah, Maxim Kozevhnikov, but I go by Max.

 

Where did you immigrate from?

 

I was just impressed that you were able to

 

spell my last name in the first try.

 

Yeah, for context, by the way, he has access to

 

the document just so he can look over the questions,

 

just in case he gets confused in the middle.

 

What city in Tajikistan are you from?

 

Dushambe.

 

How do I spell that?

 

D-U-S-H-I can spell it.

 

D-U-S-H-A-N-B-E.

 

Okay, cool.

 

So when did you immigrate, and how

 

old were you when you immigrated?

 

January 2015, I believe.

 

And I was 14 years old.

 

Okay, cool.

 

So I guess related to that, you

 

were pretty old when you immigrated.

 

You weren’t three years old, I think, 14.

 

Even though you don’t have these sort of worldly

 

ideas that maybe you have now, you still are

 

old enough to understand the world around you.

 

You know what mean?

 

So what were some of the

 

biggest cultural differences you faced?

 

Or even just, like, maybe it wasn’t hard for you

 

to adapt, 

 

but it wasn’t really hard to adapt.

 

But the biggest culture difference that I noticed is that

 

America was a lot more diverse when I moved here

 

and kind of a lot more open to different cultures.

 

Where in Tajikistan?

 

It’s kind of just one race, one language,

 

and most people are just from that country.

 

There’s not really people from different countries.

 

I obviously don’t know much about the Tajikistani culture.

 

Is it a religiously strict area?

 

Muslim, Yes

So it’s mostly muslim country?

 

I would say it’s a muslim country, yes.

 

80% to 90% is Muslim.

 

And then, like, the 10% is Christian.

 

That’s kind of a complicated question.

 

Is it the same sort of islamic

 

derivative that Dagestani Muslims are, like, Dagestan

 

and Russia, like, south Russia?

 

Kind of, yeah, in a way, it is. Okay.

 

I was just curious, because is it orthodoxy, Christian?

 

Like, what’s the Christian? That’s.

 

Yes, the Christian there is orthodox.

 

I was baptized, actually, when I was a little kid.

 

But practice, 

 

are all the other stans also islamic in

 

origin, or are some of them orthodox christian as well?

 

It depends.

 

I would say kind of like the

 

percentage of population of a country being

 

Muslim probably varies from stand to stand.

 

Yeah, no, very true. Yeah.

 

I was curious if it was generally the same demographic.

 

So what were the biggest challenges you

 

faced in your beginning days in America?

 

Because obviously you were 14.

 

It could be some sort of social ostracization.

 

But realistically, I think you were smart and old enough

 

to know what it was going to be like. I guess.

 

So what was it like for you?

 

So biggest challenges?

 

Definitely the language barrier.

 

So when I was in Tajikistan, I was learning

 

English, actually since first grade, even elementary school.

 

I was getting tutored for English a

 

little bit because my parents are smart.

 

They know that English is

 

like, a biggest probably language.

 

It’s like, why we learn Mando in Chinese. 

 

Yeah.

 

So my dad was learning English and was doing

 

English a little bit for work, I think.

 

And so he was teaching me, and then I did elementary,

 

but my learning of English was from perspective of like, oh,

 

I’m just, like, learning it as a second language.

 

I’m never going to speak this

 

as my primary language ever.

 

And then, so for some context, I’m a refugee.

 

So the fact that we’re moving to.

 

I love the cat.

 

The fact that we’re moving to the United States

 

was kind of, like, dropped to me very.

 

So, like, I didn’t really have.

 

How long did. You probably don’t know the

 

exact measurement, but 

 

four months.

 

Four months, okay.

 

And then we’re out of the country

 

at that in the United States.

 

And then I had to basically kind of

 

speed run learning English on conversational level because

 

I had to adapt and talk to people.

 

But, yeah, language was the biggest challenge for me.

 

Was it more so?

 

Obviously, English is a very complex language.

 

Grammatically, conversationally, it might feel a little bit

 

like it makes sense, but obviously, when you

 

start writing it down and you start incorporating

 

commas, semicolons, et Cetera, it’s more complicated.

 

Would you say it was more the grammar part than

 

the vocab part or the more the vocab part?

 

It may be a little bit of both.

 

It could just be a little bit of both.

 

Honestly, the grammar, because it’s very

 

different from Russian, like, the way3

 

you structure sentences, it’s pretty different.

 

I don’t know what the technical term for it is, but

 

Russian is a gender language, so words will have gender.

 

If you’re referring to a woman,

 

you have to change words around.

 

Same with a man.

 

But in English, you don’t really do that.

 

It’s kind of, for the most words, it’s gender neutral.

 

Yeah, it’s definitely grammar.

 

I think we rely more on, like, I may be

 

wrong, but I’m just guessing it’s probably because we rely

 

so much on pronouns, you know what I mean?

 

And other identifying things, modifying the word.

 

But I guess it makes sense.

 

Are you saying it’s like, different conjugations.

 

Like, they conjugate it. Different conjugations. Cool.

 

I didn’t realize because I think

 

Latin is kind of similar.

 

Not that anyone speaks Latin anyway anymore, but

 

I learned Latin in high school, but it

 

was gendered in the same way with us. And.

 

You know what I mean?

 

Same with my last name, actually.

 

So my last name is in male form, but, like, last name,

 

because you have the kova at the end, it’s going to be.

 

Wait, really?

 

So her name is.

 

Kozhevnikova

 

That’s so interesting.

 

Back in the language thing, because we

 

kind of touch on this later.

 

But did you have access

 

to american cartoons growing up? 

 

Yeah.

 

Did you watch them in Dub?

 

I watched them in Dub. I watched them in Russia. 

 

Okay.

 

Yeah.

 

100% of the time, I consumed media

 

in Russian when I was into jiggy. 

 

Okay. Yeah.

 

Because I know there’s, like, a really

 

specific anecdote, but, like, rich Brian, he’s

 

like a rapper from Indonesia.

 

He’s like an american rapper.

 

He learned English watching Rubik’s cube videos online

 

in Indonesia, which is, like, I could not

 

imagine, but it kind of makes sense considering

 

how prevalent american media is. Yeah.

 

Now, I guess back to the circumstances

 

that arose when your family was leaving.

 

What were the primary factors or circumstances

 

that led to your parents decide to

 

bring you and your family to America?

 

And remind me, do you have any siblings?

 

I don’t have any. Okay. Okay.

 

So we basically ended up to United States.

 

Moving to United States because.

 

For legal reasons, because my family are refugee.

 

So my dad used to work as a journalist

 

back in Tajikistan, and I don’t really know the

 

very fine details of the whole situation.

 

I just know that he basically wrote an article.

 

The government didn’t like it, so

 

he got in legal trouble.

 

So we decided to dip.

 

They decided to dip, and I

 

guess that was the primary factor.

 

But definitely education, for me, was the primary

 

motivation, because Tajik education is not as good.

 

Like, higher education is not

 

as good compared to american.

 

So that was definitely one of the main factors.

 

What was the culture difference, like, for

 

school, like, when you first got here?

 

Not necessarily in social aspect,

 

but more so in educational.

 

So. Okay.

 

So I went to a private school in Tajikistan, because

 

public schools in Tajikistan are really kind of bad.

 

I went to probably the best private school you can

 

get to in Tajikistan, or at least top three, basically.

 

What’s it called, by the way?

 

I’m going to put a note of it.

 

You might not remember.

 

I think it was like Dushambe gymnasium,

 

which gymnasium is not like in English?

 

It means like a gym.

 

Yeah, but in russian language, it’s

 

more of like an educational facility.

 

That’s why it’s called so american

 

middle school and high school system.

 

I feel like I had a lot more choice in

 

picking classes and level of difficulty of classes in Tajikistan.

 

You kind of just follow the

 

program and you stick to it.

 

You don’t really have a choice

 

of schedule or choice of electives.

 

You just do what’s assigned to your grade level and

 

you just go through those grades and then you pass.

 

You basically work your hardest to pass, or then

 

you do summer school if you don’t pass.

 

And that’s how it is.

 

And 

 

obviously you’re younger, but do you think

 

that that’s more because of economic reasons, like

 

they can’t afford to have more teachers?

 

Or do you think it’s more like a cultural thing,

 

like thinking that that’s how you should be teaching kids?

 

I think it’s just a cultural difference, because

 

while I didn’t have much options for classes

 

in Tajikistan, or any option at all, I

 

just had to follow the private schools curriculum.

 

I think the goal was to teach as much shit at once.

 

Because when I was in grade five, which is peer

 

to elementary school, right, I was doing physics, chem and

 

bio in one year, so there is no half years.

 

It’s like a whole year class in the jiggstance.

 

So I would be doing biochemistry and physics

 

at the same time, which is insane.

 

I see what you’re saying.

 

It’s pretty crazy, no?

 

Yeah, it’s definitely like less of a

 

balance of what topics you’re learning.

 

Yeah, but we’ll touch on that more a little later.

 

Back to, I guess, the circumstances that arose.

 

Again, you were younger, but do you

 

remember what your parents kind of depicted?

 

The reasons for what your future

 

would be like in America?

 

Do you know what kind of hopes they had, how

 

they were sort of depicting it to you, and how

 

that sort of dictated how you felt about the mean?

 

I felt pretty excited about the move, but not

 

really because my parents pinned it to me, but

 

mostly because I consumed american media, too.

 

So you were like.

 

Yeah, I was like America. Yeah. McDonald.

 

True, but, yeah. I don’t know if my

 

parents really contributed that much.

 

I mean, they tried to hype me up, of course,

 

because parents will do, but the media contributed more than

 

my parents into kind of getting excited, into moving.

 

Okay, that makes sense.

 

Is it more so the media itself,

 

or how the media depicted America?

 

The way the media depicted America.

 

I mean, it’s definitely kind of like, what

 

is the word over exaggerated, I guess.

 

Yeah, it’s not like that.

 

Everything’s bigger in Texas.

 

You know what, know, that’s funny, but we talk about that

 

a little bit more later, too, so we can move on.

 

Can you describe, and again, you might not remember,

 

but can you describe the economic or political situation

 

in Tajikistan around the time of your departure?

 

So this is just from my understanding.

 

I believe Tajikistan is still under dictatorship of the

 

same president that was around in 2015, and I

 

think was in rule since like 2002.

 

So I think my parents just wanted to get

 

out of that because I don’t think anyone wants

 

to live in a country ruled by a dictator.

 

But for example. Right.

 

They aren’t a marginalized

 

population in Tajikistan specifically. I mean.

 

So do you think that it was the sort of social

 

changes it might bring, the economic changes it might bring?

 

What do you think their fear was?

 

Obviously, the fear of a dictator is significant.

 

But specifically, I guess, what consequence of that do

 

you think that was most prevalent to them?

 

Not most prevalent, but most on their mind?

 

I think they probably assume that the country

 

is not going to develop and move forward

 

at the same pace as other countries. That makes sense.

 

And then in turn, they can’t grow

 

because my parents are relatively young.

 

They’re only 45 right now. Okay.

 

So they were like 23 when they had you. Okay.

 

Yeah, got it.

 

Obviously, I can develop.

 

So the goal is to move and develop somewhere better.

 

Well, yeah, that definitely makes sense,

 

especially on an educational level.

 

As you were saying, the sort of availability,

 

not necessarily economically, but of further education.

 

Higher education in America is obviously so

 

important to so many different cultures and

 

such a privilege to obviously know.

 

It’s just been a part of my life.

 

I was born into it.

 

So can you discuss the differences between how you adjusted

 

to life in America and how your parents did?

 

I think my dad probably had a little bit easier time

 

in terms of language, just because I know that he wrote

 

articles in English, too, when he was a journalist.

 

So for him, it was definitely easier.

 

As for me, I already talked a little about it.

 

For me, it was pretty difficult from

 

both language barrier, but also social aspect.

 

People were just kind of a lot

 

more friendly, I guess is the word.

 

They were friendly. They were friendly.

 

Like, straight up people here were friendlier than

 

Back in Tajikistan just because of how the

 

culture, I guess, shapes people up.

 

Do you think that sort of friendliness derives from?

 

I mean, I know you said more social acceptance,

 

but do you think it’s a sort of display

 

of a more individualistic society in Tajikistan, or do

 

you think it’s rather a sort of just warmer,

 

empathetic affirmation of emotions in America.

 

Do you think that we just are more

 

aware and more tentative to others emotions?

 

Yeah, I think it’s the second I feel like

 

it’s just, again, education kind of teaches people to

 

communicate people better and kind of understand people better

 

and work with other people better.

 

So education drives that, and then once generations

 

build upon that, the communication level increases.

 

But in case of Tajikistan, if that education level is

 

not kind of improving and it’s stagnant, and it’s just

 

the same education that was provided in, let’s say, soviet

 

Union, because it was part of Soviet Union.

 

So the way it’s structured is mostly based out

 

for soviet union education system, which is stagnant.

 

It doesn’t develop.

 

So the people also don’t develop and don’t grow.

 

That makes a lot of sense.

 

Sometimes people.

 

And this is kind of like, in a

 

very abstract, but sometimes people talk about struggling

 

countries, let’s say a Middle eastern country with

 

human rights issues, and they’re like, okay, well,

 

they don’t have gay rights there.

 

You know what I mean?

 

And they use that to seem to imply

 

a sort of barbarianism that’s implicit to them.

 

Not implicit, but internal to them.

 

But obviously, as you said, it’s just

 

a display of a stagnant education.

 

Yeah, I don’t think it’s barbarianism at all.

 

It’s just lack of education.

 

When you can’t figure out where your next meal

 

is going to come from, how are you going

 

to learn about political theory and why being gay

 

is okay, you know what I mean?

 

That’s true.

 

That’s the case, I guess, for a

 

lot of people in the Tajik population.

 

It wasn’t the case for me, though.

 

My family was doing pretty good financially.

 

That’s why we were able to even accomplish.

 

Yeah, you cannot just pick up your shit

 

and then go to a different country. 

 

Definitely.

 

Even as a refugee, without money, you can’t money.

 

So my parents and we definitely weren’t a struggling

 

family in Tajikistan, 

 

so do you think they knew?

 

How long do you think they knew before they

 

told you that you guys were going to go?

 

Probably a while.

 

I mean, definitely not like me with four months.

 

But I don’t know.

 

I’m sure as soon as signs of legal trouble

 

started happening, my dad was like, oh, shit.

 

Do you think?

 

Probably soon after he.

 

Yeah, I mean, I’m sure even before, there were thoughts

 

a little bit like, oh, this country kind of sucks.

 

Let’s go elsewhere and America, I guess,

 

seems like the fun place to go.

 

It is a fun place to go.

 

Pretty successful studying it at George Mason.

 

Do you think that if your parents said, for

 

example, we’re moving to France, do you think you

 

would have been like, what do you think?

 

The sort of american dream.

 

I know, so stereotypical, but the sort of american

 

dream is what played into your sort of.

 

I mean, any other country, it would be

 

just kind of like, what the fuck?

 

For me, because of language.

 

I feel like America is just an obvious

 

choice because of language and kind of diversity

 

and also the ability of just different people

 

to come together and live together.

 

That was the primary appeal.

 

But not so like the american dream. Okay.

 

I feel like with France especially too, in

 

european countries, it’s much harder to immigrate to.

 

I feel like.

 

Yeah, but in.

 

Wait 1 second.

 

Oh, good.

 

Running out of time.

 

Can you only have 30 minutes long meetings?

 

Oh, yeah, because it’s free version,

 

so it’s 30 minutes long.

 

So we have nine minutes.

 

We can just make another Zoom

 

meeting after this one right now. 

 

Okay. Say less.

 

Yeah, perfect.

 

That’s so stupid.

 

Anyways, let me go back.

 

I got a notification about that.

 

Sorry.

 

I’m just returning back to where we were.

 

American dream.

 

Oh, okay. Yeah, so we’re talking about.

 

So do you think it’s harder to immigrate to european

 

countries because of the sort of social ostracization you face

 

and how America is more accepting of immigrants?

 

Or do you mean more policy?

 

Is Tajikistan part of the EU?

 

Tajikistan is not part of. 

 

Okay.

 

It was part of Soviet Union.

 

I think there’s only two or three

 

countries that were part of Soviet Union.

 

Tajikistan is not.

 

I don’t think any.

 

It got it. Yeah.

 

But going back to the question, I think in

 

case of Europe, I feel like it’s just the

 

policies and documentation is just harder than United States.

 

I know with the United States, over the last couple

 

of years, it gotten harder a little bit more.

 

But I think back in 2015, when my family

 

were moving, it seemed like an easier option, and

 

also financially, probably easier too, than Europe.

 

And this kind of plays into it.

 

And you might not know, but

 

you keep using the word refugee.

 

Do you know any specifically policies or

 

political decisions that affected your family’s journey?

 

And that might not even be like a specific

 

act, but more so, like, do you mean you’re

 

not part of DACA, you’re not a dreamer, but

 

as an example, you know what I mean?

 

I do not know.

 

Okay, no worries.

 

Do you know if you were technically an

 

asylum seeker 

 

yes, I was a political asylum.

 

Okay, cool.

 

Well, I guess the next question you probably

 

don’t know, which is how your family sort

 

of went about the naturalization process.

 

I know that my family, I didn’t have

 

to participate in that because I was.

 

You were 14

 

 when I was moving.

 

But I know that my family had to go through

 

interview, through lawyers to build a case around, because you

 

have to go to court to prove your case that

 

you actually need a refuge in this. In America.

 

In America.

 

I don’t know if it’s probably case by case, but

 

I know that my family had to do that.

 

But it was after you already got here, right?

 

Yeah, that’s after I got here.

 

That was also like.

 

I know they did that, like,

 

three years into living here.

 

It’s a very slow. Yeah.

 

Declaring asylum takes.

 

And interestingly, and this kind of also a little

 

abstract, but that’s kind of the problem with what

 

was happening during the Trump administration when Trump was

 

kicking out asylum seekers at the border.

 

But obviously, to declare asylum, you have to

 

come to America first, go to a police

 

station, declare asylum, and then the process begins.

 

But obviously, if you deport them

 

before they declare asylum, then.

 

You know what I mean? Yeah.

 

There’s no opportunity for it.

 

Anyways.

 

Do you think these, like, do

 

you think the influences that.

 

Sorry, not the influences, but the political

 

attitudes of the years following, specifically the

 

Trump administration, where immigration was kind of,

 

like, seen negatively, do you think that

 

would have affected your ability to immigrate?

 

And obviously, that’s a bit of, like

 

a hypothetical, but you were immigrant pretty

 

fresh when the Trump administration.

 

No, I think the timing worked out really well.

 

I think my family probably would have had a harder time,

 

but because we did get in pretty much a year and

 

a half before Trump administration started, kind of give us a

 

lot of time, like build a case or whatnot.

 

Yeah, because you were saying three

 

years, so that was after.

 

But you declared asylum pretty

 

soon after arriving, right?

 

Like, after arriving instantly, right. Yeah. Okay.

 

How did the political discourse at the time

 

affect you or your family’s sense of belonging?

 

It might not have, because obviously, the sort

 

of focus of Trump’s xenophobia was muslim mexican

 

immigrants, but, yeah, no, I don’t think it

 

really affected us at all, honestly.

 

I mean, we kind of just kept on living our.

 

And this is a two part question.

 

Did the way that you viewed immigration to America

 

change and then also did the way that you

 

believe that America viewed immigration change because of.

 

Yeah, yeah.

 

I just feel like it was a big.

 

Me personally.

 

Yeah, I think it did change the view, but I

 

don’t think it really kind of perfected my view on.

 

Yeah, yeah.

 

For the general public, yeah, for sure, but

 

not for me or like, my family.

 

Okay, that makes sense.

 

There’s sort of a closed gate idea where, know,

 

immigrants come to America, and then once they get

 

here, they’re like, okay, we should stop immigration.

 

No more mean, I guess you were an asylum seeker, you

 

weren’t part of sort of any mass exodus to America.

 

But do you think that that affected it at all?

 

No, not really.

 

Yeah, I just realized it’s kind of a big change in

 

topic, but I think it’s a good change just because.

 

Recordings.

 

Yeah, we’re going to change the recordings real quick.

 

Replace the tape.

 

Yeah, 1 second.

 

I’m going to invite you to the next meeting.

 

Yes.

 

Wait, are you able to cut stuff?

 

No.

 

Talking about how your perceptions of America

 

changed before and after coming to America

 

on american culture and stuff.

 

And I think there’s no other sort of

 

zeitgeist of american culture like high school.

 

So can you start?

 

The main difference between educational systems, specifically the

 

relationship between students and teachers, and how that

 

sort of affected the teaching methods?

 

Well, okay, first of all, high school musical lied.

 

It was nothing like that at all, unfortunately. Yeah.

 

No one is on the varsity basketball

 

team while also being in drama.

 

No, but I already talked a little bit about this.

 

But educational difference wise, I feel like in

 

Tajikistan, it was a lot more rigorous.

 

Like, you constantly have to be

 

learning sciences, math, stuff like that.

 

Not really any fun classes, but in middle school and

 

high school in America, I was able to do art.

 

What is that class called?

 

Where you cut wood and 

 

woodshot? Yeah.

 

Like wooden sculptures and stuff.

 

That stuff was really cool.

 

And then in high school, you also get to

 

choose how far you want to get with math

 

and what level of math, what level of English,

 

and you get to choose a language, too.

 

What about, like, teaching teaching methods?

 

Yeah, um, it’s kind of hard to compare, because

 

teaching methods, I mean, it was for me, like

 

Tajik elementary, then middle school, high school here.

 

So obviously teaching methods between elementary, middle school

 

and high school will vary regardless of what

 

country, like, even within the United States, is

 

going to vary for sure.

 

I feel like in elementary, for me at least

 

in Tajikistan, it was a lot more like.

 

I feel like I could talk to my teacher about

 

a lot of things, but in middle school and high

 

school, it’s not so much of a cultural difference, but

 

it’s just me growing up as a person.

 

Obviously, I’m not going to go fucking tell

 

my teacher that I pissed my pants.

 

I’m not going to tell that to

 

the middle school teacher, high school teacher.

 

But, yeah, that’s the difference,

 

I guess, like less personal.

 

As you grow older, does

 

that affect your learning experience?

 

Do you, like, do you think

 

that’s sort of like culture shock?

 

Because by the way, I think what you said was right.

 

The difference between elementary and middle school, like,

 

even in America, is quite big on sort

 

of student teacher relationships and what sort of

 

role the teacher plays in your life.

 

But do you think they impacted you in the beginning?

 

Do you think you acclimated pretty fast?

 

Do you think you were ready for the change?

 

Yeah, I think so.

 

They put you through the ESL program here when you

 

have language barrier and your english is not good.

 

And I got out of that program by the

 

end of middle school, and I only did half

 

of 7th grade and then eigth grade here.

 

So like a year and a half they’re like you’re ready

 

Okay, cool.

 

This kid’s language is good enough.

 

Go take normal classes.

 

And I was like, cool.

 

But yeah, I adjusted pretty fast in high school.

 

I was in honors nap classes, so

 

I picked up stuff pretty fast.

 

Fun fact, actually.

 

In middle school when I was doing math seven.

 

Math seven in America was like kind of two grades behind

 

on what I was doing in Tajikistan and math class.

 

Oh, so you’re doing much harder math.

 

Yeah, my math was much harder in Tajikistan.

 

This is a little bit of an abstract as well,

 

because of the space race in soviet era education.

 

Similarly to american education, there was a huge emphasis

 

on math and science for a really long time.

 

So do you think that that is probably related?

 

That’s interesting because we kind of move

 

away from that now in America.

 

Yeah, but we already talked about this.

 

Remember how Tajik education system, I didn’t know if

 

you meant like culturally or actually a curriculum.

 

Actually.

 

Curriculum, yeah, I talked about it a little bit.

 

I was doing literally 6th grade.

 

I remember doing algebra,

 

geometry, physics, chemistry, bio. Yeah.

 

And then Tajik, russian language, russian literature.

 

So nine classes. Yeah.

 

In one year.

 

That’s pretty crazy.

 

It was pretty insane.

 

And also, you do all of those.

 

There is no, like a b.

 

So in american high school that I went

 

to, we had a days and b days.

 

I’m sure you had probably something similar. Yeah.

 

So you don’t have all the classes crammed.

 

You don’t have that in Tajikistan, you

 

do all nine classes in one day.

 

So it will be like 45 minutes

 

to an hour of each class, dude.

 

And you just go.

 

It’s pretty crazy.

 

That sounds exhausting. It is.

 

That somehow makes american high school look good. Yeah.

 

I mean, you can do extracurricular

 

activities and work with american system.

 

Well, at least I did.

 

I worked in high school since

 

sophomore year of high school.

 

I don’t think I would be able to do

 

that in Tajikistan just because classes get harder and

 

harder as you go, as you can imagine.

 

I can’t imagine.

 

But 9th, 10th grade, and like 11th grade, it

 

probably gets pretty rough because they also make you

 

do standardized tests to get into college.

 

But those are very important.

 

The score really determines where you can go.

 

But here we have, what are they called? Sats.

 

But I feel like sats don’t really determine

 

as much because you can still have good

 

grade, good GPA, good background, extracurricular cures, whatever.

 

But that matters much. Get into college.

 

Yeah, that matters much less.

 

Not the standardized tests.

 

That kind of relates to the next question.

 

What difference enrolled

 

extracurricular activities play?

 

And how did that sort of affect how you saw success?

 

You know what I mean?

 

Because obviously success should be like a balance of

 

education, but also how you interact with the world

 

around you, whether it’s friends or whatnot.

 

Well, when I was younger, I guess, in Tajikistan,

 

success to me looked like just getting good grades

 

and keeping good grades throughout the years.

 

In Tajikistan, the grades are one through five,

 

five being the highest, one being the lowest,

 

and for all of my yearly grades, I

 

would get fives, usually all the time.

 

So that what success looked to me.

 

But as I moved here, honestly, that kind

 

of still stayed the same with me.

 

I was still thriving to get Aids

 

in all my classes, but in high

 

school, it definitely decreased junior senior year.

 

I kind of just said, hey, I’m going.

 

Don’t really.

 

My grades don’t have to be.

 

Yeah.

 

Are you saying that that sort of

 

cultural shift was a result of you

 

coming to America and experiencing different things?

 

I guess, yeah.

 

I would say experiencing other things besides school

 

contributes to doing less school,

 

 for sure,

 

 yeah.

 

Do you think that it aided

 

you in your educational success?

 

That’s sort of like understanding the balance of it.

 

Yeah, absolutely.

 

I think part of why I’m successful in

 

college is because high school really showed me

 

that I don’t need to strive for perfection.

 

I can have a work social school life balance

 

and still maintain all of those three things.

 

Pretty well.

 

Do you think.

 

And obviously american high school.

 

I said, you never went to Tajikistani high

 

school, but do you think that you might

 

have learned that in Tajikistan as well?

 

Do you think that this is sort of

 

a fortunate privilege that american culture kind of.

 

I don’t know.

 

It’s hard to imagine how I would be

 

in Tajik high school, because the experience, I

 

think it would be really different.

 

Not necessarily, like, in a bad or a

 

good way, it just would be different.

 

Besides language, what were some of the challenges you

 

faced when adjusting to the american school system?

 

Honestly, it wasn’t like a challenge, but

 

it was just a little shocking.

 

But at first, it was definitely less homework.

 

I was like, wow, I need to do way less stuff now

 

and then, just play video games the rest of the day.

 

That’s crazy.

 

Um, what about, like, the environment,

 

like, the people, you know?

 

Oh, I mean, the people definitely were like, especially when

 

I had a language barrier, people that I was surrounded

 

with both, like, the peers and the teachers were really

 

kind to me and were willing to work with me

 

so I can learn better and that I’m comfortable.

 

And honestly, I don’t know if

 

a person in Tajikistan was similar.

 

Let’s say I’m in a typical Tajik classroom, and

 

we get a person whose language, they cannot speak

 

Tajik or they cannot speak Russian very well.

 

They’re like French or something.

 

I think they would get vastly different treatment.

 

I don’t think they would be as kind and as

 

open to teach and help them out compared to here.

 

Yeah.

 

What about the social norms within the classroom?

 

How students interacted with teachers, for example, how

 

they interacted with each other, et cetera?

 

I think the Jikistan is a little bit

 

more strict, unlike student to teacher interaction.

 

I feel like even in high school, I personally

 

didn’t really have any friend teachers, but there’s definitely.

 

I would see people around me, like my peers,

 

that would have a good connection with some teachers.

 

But I don’t think you could really

 

have that in Tajikistan as you grow

 

older, because the classes just get stricter. And.

 

Oh, and also, one thing, since I went to a

 

private school in Tajikistan, I had to wear a uniform,

 

and when I moved here, I didn’t have to, which

 

was super exciting, because I hated wearing the uniform.

 

Stuff is dumb.

 

Kids want to express themselves.

 

They don’t want to wear fucking

 

dress up suit every day.

 

Well, that’s what I was going to ask about.

 

You were talking about how strict the classroom was.

 

Do you think that that’s because they think

 

that order is necessary for learning or that

 

order is necessary for wearing uniform and stuff,

 

like lack of expression, stuff like that?

 

I think they believe order is necessary for learning.

 

So you think it’s less like a cultural

 

thing and more of a foundational learning thing.

 

Yeah, it’s again, just going back to Soviet Union

 

education and just falling on that outdated system and

 

not really seeing other options and exploring them.

 

And what was that like for you?

 

For me, when I got to wear shorts and t

 

shirts and going whatever I want, that was pretty awesome.

 

It was very liberating.

 

I don’t wear suits ever.

 

I don’t feel comfortable in them.

 

And honestly, I feel like part of the fact that I

 

had to wear them so much back in Tajikistan every day

 

to school is why, like, don’t really wear suits anymore.

 

I just do not dress up clothes.

 

And you think that’s probably like a

 

symptom of these sort of forced order?

 

Yeah, absolutely.

 

I’ve never really actually thought about that until we had

 

this discussion, but, yeah, I believe the fact that I

 

was forced to do that every single day.

 

Also, one other difference.

 

We had school Monday through Saturday. Okay.

 

Not Monday through Friday.

 

Yeah, that’s a huge difference.

 

Saturday we had half days, though.

 

Saturday.

 

Yeah, Saturday they’re nice enough to

 

give you a half day.

 

That’s what it was.

 

Monday through Saturday.

 

Even like two day weekends felt so short.

 

Yeah, absolutely.

 

In college right now, I have like three day weekends.

 

Even that when it comes.

 

How did I.

 

An entire three days.

 

Definitely.

 

An effect of being forced into doing that is

 

why I do not wear dress up clothes anymore.

 

Do people dress expressively in

 

Tajikistan outside of school?

 

Well, yes and no.

 

It depends on the areas.

 

I feel like Tajikistan has a lot of very

 

traditional clothing that both men and women will wear.

 

And that’s what very, I don’t want to

 

say patriotic, but culturally involved projects would wear.

 

And there is variations in

 

those clothing genres, I guess.

 

But it’s not in United States where people can

 

just sometimes walk naked and whatever, nothing happens.

 

Yeah, I don’t necessarily mean.

 

Yeah, I mean more like when I think of Dressing

 

expressively, I think of some crazy yellow thick pants.

 

Like leather yellow pants, like big. No.

 

Some Russian, like cyberpunk stuff. 

 

No.

 

People would laugh or just mock or joke

 

because people don’t do that in America.

 

But at least my school was 700 people

 

in my grade, 4000 people my high school.

 

Yeah, but also, someone’s like New York

 

City, and if somebody is walking like

 

a cyberpunk character, that’s whatever.

 

Nobody’s going to say anything. No.

 

Yeah, I know you’re kind of strapped

 

on time, so I’ll move us on.

 

We only got a couple more questions.

 

In what ways has american media influenced

 

your personal identity or your cultural perspective

 

since you’ve come to America.

 

I don’t really know what specific ways, but I

 

can definitely note that I started using american media,

 

like pretty much exclusive or not exclusively, but a

 

lot more when I moved here.

 

For example, in Tajikistan, I use Kantakti, which

 

is basically kind of like russian Facebook.

 

I use that.

 

I don’t really use that much anymore.

 

And then when I moved here, I got Snapchat and

 

then Reddit, and that would be like my primary social

 

media still to this day, what I use, but I

 

don’t really use as much of russian social media anymore.

 

And just to specify, by the way, because

 

that’s actually really interesting at all what I

 

meant, but I never even thought about that.

 

I mean, more so, like, by

 

media, I don’t mean social media.

 

I just mean movies, tvs, et cetera, et cetera. Right.

 

Specifically, because, by the way, I think at

 

14, I probably had one social media.

 

You know what I mean?

 

Probably had whatever one of my homies told me to get.

 

Yeah, true.

 

So kind of hard to think about how

 

it shaped my cultural identity, because even back

 

in Tajikistan, I would still consume media.

 

Like, I wasn’t just consuming Soviet Union media,

 

I was still consuming a mix of.

 

So, like, me moving didn’t really change the fact

 

that I was consuming different kind of media.

 

So. Yeah.

 

I don’t know if that answers your question.

 

No, I mean, it does, but whether or not

 

it changed, I mostly mean how it affected your

 

views, maybe on people, on America, et cetera.

 

You know what I mean?

 

I mean, again, it’s just like such a broad question.

 

I know.

 

Because all media changes your

 

personality, obviously, me consuming.

 

I can bring an example. Mr.

 

Robot, easily.

 

My favorite tv show is a reason why I’m

 

an it, because it showed me how I can

 

do so much crazy stuff with computers.

 

High school musical as like a joke. Yeah.

 

That’s kind of a good example, because obviously we both

 

know that high school wasn’t going to be that way,

 

but that’s sort of like, certain shows did make me

 

feel like high school would be how they depicted it.

 

You know what I mean?

 

Yeah.

 

Is there anything that you watched as a

 

kid where you’re like, wow, that is what

 

I think America is going to be like?

 

No, not really. Never. Yeah.

 

I don’t think there’s like a single piece of media.

 

No.

 

The stuff I watched as a

 

kid wasn’t very realistic, I’d say. Yeah.

 

I feel like as a kid I was just

 

more attracted to experiencing stuff of outwardly experience.

 

Let’s say that that’s valid. Yeah.

 

And I think that maybe if you were,

 

like, 30 and you were immigrating to America.

 

Yeah, absolutely.

 

For example, my cousin, he didn’t immigrate here.

 

He’s from Italy, lives in Belgium.

 

He visited back in, I want to say may.

 

And I was driving him around, and we

 

drove past a gas station, and he.

 

Oh, gas station.

 

And I was like, what are you getting so excited for?

 

He goes, it’s an american gas station.

 

And I was like, what?

 

You don’t understand.

 

I see these in the movies.

 

I did have that moment with McDonald’s

 

because we don’t have McDonald’s in Tajikistan.

 

I came here and I saw the first McDonald’s.

 

I was like, you’re like golden arches. Yeah, dude.

 

I was like, holy shit.

 

How did that make you feel?

 

What is kind of going through your mean?

 

I was pretty excited, but then I had it, and

 

I was like, damn, this is kind of not.

 

The golden arches are sick. But this is. I like burger.

 

My family, when we moved here, we

 

love Burger King for some reason.

 

Oh, my God, that’s such a bad take.

 

Yeah, no, we don’t.

 

Not ever anymore.

 

You’ll never catch me going to Burger King ever again.

 

I don’t even know how that place is still

 

functional, but they should put you on the watch

 

list once you go to Burger King. Yeah.

 

And my final formal question, how does

 

the humor and messaging in american cartoons

 

differ from, like, soviet and tajikistan cartoons?

 

So my favorite russian cartoon

 

is called Treasure island.

 

It has nothing to do with the american, or I think

 

it’s british or american has nothing to do with that.

 

But it is about pirates, and

 

it is about a treasure island.

 

And that entire cartoon is basically, the way it’s made

 

is there is like a few live action scenes within

 

the cartoon where the voice actors will sing, and the

 

entire movie is kind of like alcohol and smoking, anti

 

smoking, anti alcoholism propaganda, which is kind of crazy.

 

You wouldn’t really watch that as a kid here.

 

And even when it is like propaganda, you’ll go

 

to high school or middle school, and you will

 

do it in your physical education class.

 

They’ll just shove it down your throat.

 

Yeah, they’ll just shove it

 

down your throat explicitly.

 

Be like, drugs are bad, blah, blah, blah.

 

But then in Tajikistan, when I was watching the

 

cartoon from Soviet Union, I watched lots of Soviet

 

Union cartoons because my parents grew up on them,

 

and then they showed me them.

 

But that one is my favorite.

 

It’s all just like, no smoking, no drinking, songs mixed

 

in with pirate cartoon for kids, which is insane.

 

It is an insanely trippy movie cartoon.

 

I love it.

 

That’s actually so funny.

 

So you think that it’s a little bit more preachy? 

 

Yeah.

 

No, I feel like less childhood wonder, more.

 

Don’t smoke cigarettes.

 

Yeah, less childhood wonder and more

 

like, real shit, like live lessons.

 

Every cartoon I watched that was from Soviet

 

Union era had some sort of a message

 

or life lesson in it to teach.

 

Very little of it was just, like, pure entertainment.

 

All of it tried to be really deep.

 

Wait, why am I not getting a warning?

 

I swear it’s about to be 30 minutes again.

 

But it’s okay.

 

Maybe not, because.

 

Yeah, okay, we have time.

 

We still have a few minutes.

 

Okay, so, again, do you think that that sort

 

of lack of emphasis on child wonder when I

 

was five, in kindergarten sounds so dumb?

 

The day before Christmas break, we sat down,

 

we got hot chocolate, we watched Polar Express.

 

You know what I mean?

 

When I think of how Christmas used to make me feel.

 

I’m jewish, by the way.

 

I don’t even celebrate Christmas. You know what I mean?

 

Do you think that sort of lack of emphasis on

 

childlike wonder would be misplaced by me, or do you

 

think that that’s kind of how it was?

 

 No.

 

I mean, I was still excited for holidays and stuff.

 

Not just holidays, but I just mean Disney world shit.

 

Like, no, I got you.

 

No, I mean, I guess I had a balance because.

 

Well, because the media that I would watch

 

for that child wonder would be american media.

 

So, like, american cartoons.

 

I watched a lot of Disney cartoons in

 

dub, in Russian, and a lot of cartoons.

 

I’ve been rewatching a few movies, cartoons from

 

my past I’m watching in English only for

 

the first time, and I’m 22.

 

It’s pretty crazy.

 

For some specific memory questions.

 

For funsies, we’re talking about

 

golden arches and stuff.

 

So what was your first memory in America?

 

What do you remember when you look back?

 

What do you think?

 

Like, damn, I’m in America.

 

What do you think about.

 

I remember our Airbnb being really fucking fancy.

 

And then also we’re.

 

Did you come to Virginia instantly?

 

Yes, we came to northern Virginia.

 

I think we stayed, like, an Airbnb close

 

to the apartment that my parents were getting

 

in Herndon, and then we just stayed there. Yeah.

 

I never really lived anywhere outside

 

of Virginia since I moved here.

 

What was the first american thing you did?

 

Trying to think.

 

I don’t know.

 

It’s definitely not the first thing I did,

 

but it’s definitely the vivid memory of it

 

is going to Six Flags with my parents.

 

That was definitely, like the most american

 

memory that’s just engraved in my childhood.

 

Yeah, like Six Flags.

 

Watching a bunch of american people be loud and walk

 

by and you’re like, oh, my God, where am I?

 

Yeah, that sounds so funny.

 

What was the first american movie you watched?

 

Lord of the Rings.

 

My parents had it on VHS in English with

 

russian subtitles, because they didn’t have russian dub.

 

And I watched Lord of the Rings,

 

and it was also the extended versions.

 

And I was like, damn, this stuff is wild.

 

You had to replace the vhs tape halfway through

 

the movie because each movie was two vhs tapes.

 

It’s kind of annoying.

 

There used to be, like, campaigns

 

like that on video games.

 

Oh, my God.

 

There was this one game I bought

 

where I had like three discs, bro.

 

One was for multiplayer, and then

 

two of them were for campaign.

 

I think it was like black ops two or something.

 

It was like modern warfare three.

 

What was the first american cartoon you watched? 

 

Avatar.

 

The Last Airbender.

 

That’s fire.

 

We’re watching it now, so. Good.

 

What about your first time going to an american mall?

 

Well, okay.

 

So my experience with american malls is like,

 

it wasn’t really cultural shocking, because I’ve been

 

to Turkey prior to America many times, and

 

turkish malls, malls in developed countries are very

 

similar across the world. They’re not.

 

It’s just like clothing stores plus food.

 

That’s the mall.

 

So I wasn’t really like, oh, wow, mall.

 

I wasn’t really shocked or anything by that

 

experience, because I already experienced it before.

 

Yeah, in Turkey.

 

That makes a lot of sense.

 

I believe, actually, Tajikistan has built

 

a mall, like, in 2019.

 

They have a mall now?

 

Yeah, they have a mall.

 

Let’s go.

 

Yeah, that’s a start.

 

That jokes aside, and then last question,

 

because I know you have to go.

 

First time going to an american movie theater.

 

And what did you see?

 

Duh, I would have.

 

Hold on, let me Google year 2015 movies.

 

I don’t even remember.

 

Oh, right.

 

I think I want to see Avengers, age of Ultron.

 

But it wasn’t really any different except the language.

 

It was still a movie theater experience.

 

They have movie theaters in Tajikistan.

 

It’s similar vibe.

 

And I wasn’t.

 

My movie theater experience wasn’t really mind blown

 

until I went to see Star wars.

 

The Force Awakens, like episode seven in

 

the airspace museum because they have the

 

biggest IMAX screen there in United States.

 

That was pretty mind blowing.

 

But that was like 2017, I believe. So.

 

It wasn’t like an early american experience.

 

Okay.

 

Well, thank you, Max, for the interview. No problem.

 

I will be sending you a consent form for all of this.

 

Sounds good.

 

Otherwise, I appreciate all of your time.

 

Thank you for answering my questions.

 

Is there anything else you’d like to say? 

 

No.

 

Thank you for having me. Of course.

 

I’m going to end the recording now.