Interview with Phim Iovinelli
Introduction
Phimmachanh Iovinelli, my step-mother, was the first person to cross my mind as the subject for this project. For the better part of a decade now, Phim (pronounced “pim!”) has been a wonderful source of support and joy in our family. She is one of the kindest women I know and is quick to supply wisdom and inspiration in times of need. Her journey from living in Laos to owning her own business in the U.S. is a story well-deserving of publication and admiration.
We sat down to interview on November 23, 2023, and Phim led me through the events of her immigration process, from her childhood in Laos to her present day life in Virginia. I prompted questions based on the materials we had discussed in class and listened in the context of those topics. Prior to this interview, I knew very little about Phim’s story and her life before reaching America, and I was excited to discover more about her culture and background.
Laos History and Complications
Laos is a landlocked nation in Southeast Asia sandwiched between Thailand and Vietnam. It is home to nearly eight million people with its capital city, Vientiane, situated on the border of Thailand. Despite its rich culture and beautiful landscapes, Laos has been a site of several misfortunes over the past couple centuries, including heavy resource extraction during its colonial rule under France, Japanese occupation during World War II, and a communist movement after the Laotian Civil War (1959-1975).
A point of devastation that continues to affect the people of Laos is the destruction caused from the Civil War and the simultaneous Vietnam War (1955-1975), where the threat of communism prompted the United States to drop a total of 270 million cluster bombs on Laos over nine years. An estimated 30% of those bombs failed to explode on impact, leaving them active and scattered around the nation (Inoue 2023). Reparations for those 80 million live bombs have fallen short; the Lao government has left their bomb detection machines in inoperable disrepair, and the U.S.’s monetary relief donations only account for 0.6% of the cost of dropping the bombs (U.S. Mission Laos 2023). As recovery efforts stall, the bombs have killed hundreds of civilians per year as they till fields, expand cities, and build infrastructure (Convery 2018). They continue to be a danger to both the Lao people and the economy, frightening away foreign investment and hindering the growth of farms, mines, railroads, and cities.
Life in Laos
Phim was born in November of 1979 and grew up as the eldest of four children in the capital city of Vientiane. At just four years after the end of both the Vietnam War and the Laotian Civil War, the country was rather poor and barren. Regardless, Lao families like Phim’s worked hard to rebuild their communities under the new communist rule. She talks about her experiences in school, noticing how all students from grade school through college wore the same uniform, a mark of the new prevailing ideology. At that time, all schools were paid for by the government, and families had to pay out of their pockets for supplies, books, and tutors. She observes that private schools have been on a recent rise in Laos, but not so at the time of her childhood.
Another important part of her upbringing was work; Phim’s family ran many businesses to provide for themselves, such as a restaurant, charcoal production, and beef jerky preparation. Phim and her siblings helped out in these household jobs before becoming of the age to find official work. She recalls starting her first job at a clothing factory starting in her early teenage years, working there full time in summers when school was on break. Industries with simple positions that hired young workers were very common in Laos, even so in today’s time; the nation’s government has slowed down the progress of their technology due to their communist nature, and few foreign governments are willing to invest.
During this time, many Laotians were being displaced or killed based on their involvement in the past wars. Many fled the country or were imprisoned because of their collaboration with the United States. Phim recalls learning in school about the U.S. and the suffering it imposed upon Laos, reflecting the tense attitudes at that time. The profound concentration of unexploded bombs, especially in the northern part of the country, set back the nation’s development by decades and have claimed an estimated 50,000 lives since the end of the war (Convery 2018). Between post-war infighting and the economic setbacks produced by the unexploded bombs, Laos’ population and prospects of swift recovery were in jeopardy.
Migration
Phim made the decision to move out of Laos right after she finished college, where she was able to craft what she wanted her future would look like. She originally aspired to be a doctor but quickly realized that was not attainable without English proficiency and substantial funding. Instead, Phim enrolled in finance school, where she again realized that learning English would be the key to opportunity. English, which she describes to be the “second language for all the world” (16:17), would allow her to move to a country that was not as economically behind and opportunity-barren as Laos. When I asked why she chose the United States specifically, Phim cited these reasons, adding that the United States boasts a “melting pot” of cultures and significantly better laws protecting people and businesses. She also mentioned that her family was altogether supportive of the move, as they also understand her desire for a better future.
Through her grandfather’s arrangement, Phim was able to get in contact with an uncle of hers that was living in Dallas, Texas. She applied and interviewed for a student visa while her uncle filed paperwork, bought the airfare, and hired a lawyer to assist in the process. After about a year and a half of processing, Phim was able to enter the U.S. on December 23, 2001. I was quite surprised at how willing and motivated Phim’s uncle was to sponsor her migration. One reason for this might be that he had a successful migration of his own that would make him eager to allow another Laotian the same chance. Phim recognizes how fortunate she is to have that work handled for her, as she even says “but for me, I don’t do anything much” (21:18). Much of that responsibility fell onto her uncle’s shoulders to prove that he could support Phim, but I was still rather surprised at the straightforward process that Phim described.
A detail that astonished me was how relatively uncomplicated her journey was following the 2001 terror attacks that had happened just three months prior. In fact, Phim opened the interview by recounting where she was on September 11th–at the U.S. embassy in Vientiane interviewing for her student visa. It was fortunate that Phim was able to immigrate before the creation of the Department of Homeland Security in 2002, as new policy began to change American views on immigration from economic opportunity to risks of security. Much of the immigration reform after the September 11 attacks, and especially to this day, focuses more specifically on the southern border between the U.S. and Mexico rather than the majority of migrants who come in on planes and either student or work visas.
Integration & Membership
Phim arrived in Dallas, Texas, on December 23 of 2001 to bright holiday lights and bustling shopping centers; Christmas was altogether foreign to her after growing up in a Buddhist nation. Shocking shows of American consumerism were everywhere from large cars to high tech appliances like dishwashers and microwaves. Dallas was fast and loud, and Phim had no experience with the English language. She spent the next few years learning through exposure with her English-Lao dictionary and from watching American television.
Another path of language learning that Phim took was through local English as a Second Language (ESL) classes. These would occupy her weekends for two to three years as she worked full time at salons. Phim’s first jobs were assisting in nail and hair clinics around Dallas, businesses often established and run by Southeast Asian immigrants. Her employment in Lao salons was a key social and financial resource for Phim at this time. Eventually, she expanded to Vietnamese-run salons as well, where Phim then needed to rely on her learned English to communicate with coworkers. Between work and ESL, Phim also enrolled in technical classes to receive a double license in nails and facial waxing. These cost about $5,000 each, and she would later apply for two more licenses as her career furthered.
Despite surrounding herself with other Southeast Asian migrants, Phim still faced confusion from Americans who had never encountered a name like Phimmachanh. She decided to create a distinctive workplace name, going by “Jackie” in front of clientele. Developing a “western” or “American” name is a common practice for migrants, facilitating communication and creating a “badge” of assimilation. It can also take attention off of migrants’ “foreign” status when that quality is not relevant. Phim’s business is still owned by “Jackie” to this day.
Phim also describes many of her Dallas colleagues to be more “American-Lao,” meaning many were born in the U.S. or had migrated at a young age with their family. In fact, Phim was surprised to connect with migrants from more diverse cultures (i.e. Korean, Mexican, Brazilian) than with those in Lao and Thai circles. A reason for this, she feels, is that she no longer goes to Temple. In addition to the scarcity of Buddhist Temples in the U.S., Phim admits she has never been a very religiously reliant person. That lack of community has hindered her association with other Lao-Americans; nevertheless, she finds many rewarding friendships through the salon. In addition, the beauty industry allows her the gratification of helping others, a fond reminder of her previous aspirations of becoming a doctor. Her generosity and kindness have become trademarks of her business and have attracted several lifelong friends between Texas and Virginia.
Family
Phim’s journey to citizenship took a total of ten years: three during the application process and seven waiting for confirmation. Between the fees and lawyers, Phim kept in touch with her family through mailed letters, though responses were slow. Occasionally, she would purchase a phone card to call her parents’ neighbors’ landline, as her family did not have one, and talk through poor signal. “Then all of the sudden Facebook exists” (34:55), Phim explains, and it became cheaper and quicker to connect. Messenger and other revolutionary international interfaces allow immigrants and their families to remain closer than ever, especially over difficult time zones. “I believe probably my parents not even know my cell phone number” (35:15), Phim jokes, but she is altogether grateful to be just a button away from her loved ones.
As a reward for her new U.S. citizenship, Phim traveled back to Laos to see her family for the first time in ten years. Unfortunately, Phim remembers her return with mixed feelings. With her new American status came the assumption that she was wealthy, and many family members were expecting lavish gifts. Phim had been saving her money for many years, giving each family a couple hundred U.S. dollars’ worth of Laotian Kip. However, she did feel her efforts were ultimately underappreciated; most of her family had never left Laos and could not accurately compare their standards of living with Phim’s. “Back home, they don’t understand,” she explains. “We are work the same thing… just only the currency is different” (43:06).
Phim has participated in and embraced American culture for her entire adult life while still honoring her Lao identity. She recognizes the ways in which she has had to change and adapt in order to achieve this balance, explaining that “it doesn’t mean I try to be someone I’m not, but it’s just the way… I live around American people” (53:29). She sees this process in interactions with other Asian migrants, noticing how the American culture that they partake in begins to define who they are. Along those same lines, Phim is aware of how her American nature sticks out during her returns to Laos. Certain values that are not as present in Lao culture, such as punctuality and respect for the rules, are blatantly disregarded to the point of her annoyance. She finds herself much more outspoken and honest, ideals that she attributes as American, in comparison to the ways of life in Laos. “I’m changing,” she states. “The people back then don’t change” (55:11).
Conclusion
Today, Phim is a proud business owner, competitive golfer, and caring friend to all. She has worked hard for over twenty years to build her own business, earning her citizenship along the way, and is grateful for her ability to support herself in America’s wealthiest county. She and my father got married in January of 2019 surrounded by dozens of friends, clients and migrants alike, and were fortunate enough to hold a second ceremony in Laos for Phim’s family. Through delicious traditional Lao and Thai food, she keeps her culture alive and my father and I well-fed. Phim’s story is a testament to the ideals of a modern day American Dream, and it was truly special to hear her account firsthand. I am incredibly grateful to have Phim as an interviewee and a mother.
Works Cited
Convery, Padraic. “US Bombs Continue to Kill in Laos 50 Years after Vietnam War.” Www.aljazeera.com, Al Jazeera Media Network, 21 Nov. 2018, www.aljazeera.com/features/2018/11/21/us-bombs-continue-to-kill-in-laos-50-years-after-vietnam-war/.
Inoue, Kosuke. “Laos Struggles with Unexploded Bombs 50 Years after Paris Accords.” Nikkei Asia, Nikkei Inc, 28 Jan. 2023, asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Laos-struggles-with-unexploded-bombs-50-years-after-Paris-Accords#:~:text=The%20explosives%20included%20some%20270.
U.S. Mission Laos. “U.S. And Norway Province over $20.8 Million to Increase UXO Survey and Clearance in Southern Laos.” U.S. Embassy in Laos, U.S. Embassy in Laos, 27 July 2023, la.usembassy.gov/u-s-and-norway-province-over-20-8-million-to-increase-uxo-survey-and-clearance-in-southern-laos/#:~:text=The%20United%20States%20is%20the.
Ella Iovinelli: Alright, hello! I’m gonna do a little intro for the recording here–my name is Ella Iovinelli, and I’m here with my mom, Phim. We’re gonna do a little interview about her life and her experiences coming to the United States. So first, you know, I just want you to state your name, where you’re from, and where you were born.
Phim Iovinelli: Ok.
Ella: Or–when you were born. Sorry.
Phim: Hello! So my name is Phim Iovinelli, and I’m from Laos, L-A-O-S. So anyways it’s pronounced Laos.
Ella: Mhm.
Phim: And I came here–since 2001.
Ella: 2001–how old were you?
Phim: Back then probably I’m about 22.
Ella: 22, alright.
Phim: Just finished my college, and I come to the United States, yeah. So yeah, I came here in December 23 of 2001, just right after September 11–a couple months after the September 11 happen, you know. So yeah, the day when I interview to come here is like perfect September 11.
Ella: Wow.
Phim: I’m in the U.S. embassy in Vientiane. That’s the capital of Laos. So–and I saw in the news, and I just kinda even have in my mind, like, I’m saying like, “oh how the United States, they gonna let the people to come to U.S. because since it just happened, the big attack.”
Ella: Mhm.
Phim: Like the Pentagon and New York, you know? So something like that, but end up I got my visa that day. So and then like I arrive to U.S. the 23 of December, 2001, so and I think I land into Dallas, Texas. So that was the first time I stepped into U.S. land, you know?
Ella: Wow, yeah.
Phim: Mhm, so yeah, it’s amazing! So, like, it’s midnight you know I come to U.S. so it’s all like Christmas lights and everything, you know, it’s like it’s amazing–something I’d never seen, right? In my country we don’t celebrate Christmas because we Buddhist. So that’s why, yeah. So it’s something new for me, yeah. It’s cool.
Ella: Right. American traditions, yeah.
Phim: Yeah
Ella: So yeah, let’s talk a little bit about Laos, you know. What part of the country are you from?
Phim: I come from the capital of Laos. They call it Vientiane. But Vientiane actually that’s the new capital. So the old capital of Laos it’s called Luang Prabang. That is kinda the more… more up north. But for me I’m kinda in the more in the west side of the country, so then we have the border with Thailand, yeah.
Ella: Right, ok. Yeah, so you had a very–you kinda grew up in the city? More so than the countryside, would you say?
Phim: Exactly. Yeah, in the city, but back then the way I grow up is like towards to the end of the war, the Vietnamese War. Because I’m born 1979, but the Vietnamese War it’s towards to the end like 1975, right? But my country is still really countryside, still poor and a lot of dirt roads and nothing like–nothing is really fancy. It’s still countryside, still a lot of trees, a lot like we live through the land and all that kinda stuff, yeah.
Ella: Mhm, yeah. And you live with your parents and who else?
Phim: Yeah I lived with my parents and then I grow up with my three siblings–total with us four. And my two sisters and one brother. So I’m the oldest.
Ella: And you’re the oldest, haha.
Phim: Yes, yes.
Ella: So, growing up in Laos, what would you say school was like?
Phim: Oh the school is more like everybody have to wear the- have to follow the same rule, like it’s kind of- my country they’re still carrying communist influence, right? So it doesn’t matter when you go to school over there, but when you go to school there it’s kinda more from, like, daycare or the first grade to college we wear the same uniform.
Ella: Mhm.
Phim: So and also the school over there it more–most of the schools and the way I grow up is owned by the government. It means public. So we don’t have to pay for the public school but we still have to pay for the books, pay for something like a tutor (05:00), whatever you want to do extra. But most of the schools over there is free, and private it’s just little. Not much private school. But right now in this generation it is a lot of private, you know? Because of more changing up now, you know.
Ella: Mhm.
Phim: Yeah, still some–some of them is still behind. Because like my country is still slow about like, technology. We don’t have computer or anything like that back then, you know. And also everything’s still really, really slow because, from the communist influence, the government, they control most of the–everything. So that’s why it’s harder for the–for the invest people to go in there to helping. Or, like, try to helping the school or the teacher to be more advanced and educated because since the government control everything it mean make everything it more slower to grow up, you know, so something like that. That’s how–how I feel, you know. So the way I grow up back then, you know.
Ella: Mhm. Right–as you were going to school, where were you also working at the same time? Like, what age did you start working?
Phim: Oh yeah, because like, when I start to go to school from like… I start–when I start my high school, and then most of the time when I go to school there, you have to go all day.
Ella: Mhm.
Phim: You know, from like, the class starts at eight, and then you finish by four or five. That’s kind of talking about all day. But my summer break, I have full time working, and then the work I done is like in the sewing clothes factory, like jacket, jeans, and all that kind of stuff, you know. But of course, when I go to work back then, since I’m so underage, but they still allow you to work because they need to helping the kid to wanting to work and make some money and buy the clothes and outfit and the book to go back to school, you know?
Ella: Right. About what age do you think you started working?
Phim: I think–what age?–probably like maybe start at like fifteen?
Ella: Fifteen? Alright.
Phim: Thirteen-fifteen? Yeah, but before I go work in the factory, but from when I go up, you know, I’m helping my parents because my parents they have a business, a job, you know, like a family business, family business. That’s why I’m always, always at work, you know, helping my parents in the restaurant or charcoal company. To make the charcoal business. You know charcoal, the one they cook barbecue?
Ella: Yeah, yeah, charcoal.
Phim: Yeah, so. And also we have a beef jerky business, too. We dry the beef to sell it too. But a lot of small things. We try to helping each other, try to support the whole family, you know. So, yeah, that’s how we grow up because we’re kind of a more poor family, yeah.
Ella: Right. And we’ve been talking a bit about, you know, the communist influences in Laos and how the Vietnam War–how its fallout has been hurting Laos and its population. Can you elaborate a little bit more on that as well? I know it’s a bit heavy.
Phim: Talking about the Vietnamese War, the war back then, I–I’m still young too because I still–when because the end of the Vietnam War is 1975, but I’m born 1979–that’s about four years later. Because for me, I don’t know if- how much it hurt my country. I don’t really can recall that that much. But I know for sure a lot of people, they left my country back then. You know, they kind of leave the country because since whoever they helping like U.S. or something like that. I don’t know. So, and they have to leave the country. If not, they’re going to get–go to the jail, or something like that, yeah. So yeah, that one I don’t really recall that much because I don’t really know much about the Vietnam War.
Ella: Do you remember those public feelings about, you know, attitudes towards the U. S. after the war has happened? I know that the United States had done a lot to that country. And just, you know, bombing it, ruining it as much as possible. Was there sort of an anti United States sentiment, or were a lot of these (10:00) people leaving for the United States?
Phim: I think like for myself, the way I grow up, I learn from–I learn from in the history, in the school. It is, like, U.S. is–it kind of like hurt a lot of my country, like Lao country, especially in the north they bombed a lot. They throw the bomb in there a lot. Right now, it’s still a lot of bomb in the north of my country because of that, you know. So yeah, because the people leave my country back then, because from like whoever they work with U.S. it mean they have to leave the country, right? If you don’t leave, it means like they’re gonna have to put you and your family to go to the jail.
Ella: Right.
Phim: Yeah, yeah. So that’s why it means like you’re already in that side, you know, so that’s why they have to just like clean it all up, right? So who were involved with the U.S. back then, they had to leave the country. That’s what I learned and from what I understanding, yeah. So that’s why my country back then is only like, what’s that? Three to five million people? That’s little, right? That’s the whole country, actually.
Ella: Right.
Phim: Yeah, that’s really, like, a lot of people left country back then. And also, a lot of the people in my country, they got hurt or died from the civil war between Thailand and Laos. Right? So back then from the king and queen history thing, right? So yeah, they kill a lot of Lao people–because Lao country lost the war. Yeah, so that’s why Lao people, we don’t have much people left, you know?
Ella: Right. So that brings me to my next topic, which is, you know, moving out of Laos, basically. What do you think was–what got that idea in your head to move out of Laos, to escape the country?
Phim: To come here? Oh, okay. The reason I left Laos–because after I finish college and I always want to learn English, right? Because since I’m in high school, so when I’m in high school, my second language is French language. Because I want to become surgeon. So I want to be doctor. So and then like, since toward to the end of my high school, my parents they–since we poor family and they have three more kids after me, right? But if I want to become surgeon, I have to go to Japan or Paris. And then but I didn’t get the money from the government–it means my parents have to pay out from their own pocket.
Ella: Of course.
Phim: For me to go to pursue my–my education for seven years. When you want to be a surgeon, you have to go for seven years, but they cannot afford it. So, and then, turns out they send me go to the school, the finance and business school. So I go there for three years. Three to four year, and then they finish that, and then when I’m in the college I kind of like–I cannot use my French language because in like finance school, they study only English and Lao.
Ella: Right.
Phim: So that’s why, because they use English to involve with computer or software and all that kind of stuff. And then when I finish that college and I still kind of like not know much about English. And then I feel like I want to know–learn more English because most of my friends in college, they all speak some English, you know.
Ella: Mhm.
Phim: So then that’s why the reason why I want to come to U.S.–and then turns out I’m so lucky to have my uncle live in Texas to sponsor me to come over. And the second thing is–I’m so glad to left from that country because my country still don’t have no company. Not much factory or company; no job in my country. So if, and also like, if you don’t know–if you don’t know someone really important, example, like if you want to work in some, like accounting, or like the government position, like tax center or anything like that or some kind of little company. If you don’t know someone there, you cannot get into those kind of job. You always have to know somebody to take you in. So that’s why not much (15:00) opportunity in my country. That’s why the reason why I want to come to U. S. That way I can give myself more–more future and then I can have more opportunity because over here they have more opportunity.
Phim: And also over here they have the law to protect people and protect your business and they have everything protect you, who you want to become, you know, so it’s more freedom. Yeah. So that’s the reason why I come over here to U. S., yeah.
Ella: Yeah. More opportunity, you know, desire for a better career. I totally get that. And you felt the U. S. was the best choice for you out of anywhere else in the world? Was there any debate about that?
Phim: For me, I think, doesn’t mean–it is, U. S. is going to be the first choice because it’s a bigger country. And then they have so much opportunity and all different cultures here, right? And also, like, U.S. country the main language is English. So it means if you come here you know English and then and it kind of open you up more to different places, right? Because they try to be the second language for all the world. You know, so yeah, I think so, U.S. is going to be my first choice if I can be here, yeah.
Ella: How did your family think about that? When you let them know that “this is what I’m thinking about?” Did your parents try to dissuade you? Did your siblings try to dissuade you? Was anyone super for it, you know?
Phim: Yeah, my whole family, they really look forward to me to come over here because-
Ella: That’s wonderful!
Phim: Yeah, they know I’m going to have better future. If I have better future, it means I can helping them out. So, of course, they all want to come here, too, but it’s not easy to come to U. S., you know. So, like, everyone knows U. S. people, when you have–carry U. S. passport, we can travel anywhere we want. But other culture or other country out there, they cannot come to U. S. that easy. Just few country in Europe, you know, I think, I believe, yeah.
Ella: Right. So yeah only you can go to the United States, you feel. None of your siblings, your parents, did they ever want to come with you? Did you feel that there was a way to bring anyone else with you to the states? Or did you realize this had to be a solo journey?
Phim: Um, talking about that, I did talking with my lawyer about that because I do want to sponsor my family come. For my parents, since I’m from Laos, so for me, if I want to sponsor my parents come, it’s easy because the kids sponsor the parents. Because my parents, they’re older and then I think the law or the rule of U. S. rule or–I believe probably more U. S. rule: if they’re older people, they allow them to come visit or like come because it’s easier and easier to sponsor them and to get visa for them to come. But for me to sponsor my sibling, like my brother or sister, it takes ten years.
Ella: Mhm.
Phim: Yeah, it’s more difficult. And because they know the young people when they come here, they don’t want to go back to their country or something like that. I think the rule, maybe Lao rule–the rule of Laos or the U.S. (I’m not sure, maybe both) they agree when the young people come to U.S. they don’t want to go back, you know. But the older people, they can let them come because, number one, they don’t have their friends here, number two, they don’t really–it’s harder for them to learn other languages because they’re older, and number three, it’s harder for them to driving around, so that’s why they tend to not want to stay too long, you know. But younger people, they’re not afraid, right? So they’re always gonna try to find a way to leave, you know, or something like that.
Ella: Okay, yeah.
Phim: And yeah, takes a long time, ten years, for my sibling if I want to sponsor them to come. But if, example, like if the parent, they’re gonna sponsor the kid to come here, but the kid have to be under twenty-one.
Ella: Right, yes.
Phim: So if twenty-one and older, it’s not possible. It means like-
Ella: They’re an adult, basically.
Phim: They’re adult now, yeah, something like that. That’s how the way, the rule to take the people come to U.S. (20:00). So for my lawyer I’m talking with.
Ella: Yeah, right. You mentioned earlier about an uncle in Texas that helped you kind of find your way in the United States. So how’d you get in contact with him?
Phim: Oh yeah, because he’s the nephew of my grandfather.
Ella: Okay, yeah.
Phim: So that’s why my grandfather asked him if he can sponsor me come over here. So yeah I come in like more a student visa.
Ella: Oh, you came in on the student visa.
Phim: Yeah, but he the person to be my guardian. He proving like okay he the person have to pay me to stay, and he the person gonna pay for my education, or he the person gonna pay for all my food, and where to live, and all that kind of stuff, right?
Ella: Right. So, you made this decision, you filled out all the paperwork that you could, you got in touch with him–you booked the flight, right, to go over? You filled out your student visa. How much do you think that cost you at the time to prepare everything?
Phim: I think most the time when to come to U.S. most the time is the–my uncle, he the person do all the sponsor paper over here in U.S. But for me, I don’t do anything much, you know. Yeah, yeah, but the important is like the people here, they have to prove they have income, they have a job.
Ella: Right.
Phim: Right, because that way they can support that person when they got over. To do all the paperwork, everything it takes about eight months to one year. So and then I go interview and then like–to buy the airfare he, the person, has to purchase for me, you know, and something like that, yeah. So, total time is about one year or year and a half.
Ella: And just a little tangent for his story: when- do you know about when he came to the United States? How long he had been living in Texas before you got there?
Phim: Uh, I think probably twenty-something years. Maybe thirty years.
Ella: Yeah, so he’s been there for a while.
Phim: Yeah, because he’s older. I think when the time when I got to U. S. and he only like sixty-five. Yeah, that’s pretty long time. And then like, yeah, pretty much he live here long time since like, I don’t know when he come to U.S., you know.
Ella: Were there any other specific guidelines for coming over to the United States that you had to follow that really, you know, were pretty notable for you?
Phim: The guidelines?
Ella: Like, anything in specific that, you know, you kept in mind as you were coming over–anything that shocked you, anything that was brand new for you?
Phim: For me, the one that’s really shocking me or anything is, example, English, you know. It’s so hard because since I don’t really know English.
Ella: You didn’t know much at that time.
Phim: Yeah. I just know very minimum, like say hello, whatever, but I don’t really understand it. Because like I mentioned to you, when I learn in high school, it’s my French language–that’s my second language. And then when I transfer to English, like when I’m in the college about four year, you know, so, and I barely know English, you know. It’s really shocking me. And then, and also about all how the people live over here is really so different where I’m coming from because I come from it’s like really poor country, right?
Ella: Right.
Phim: But when I come here, it’s like a big shopping center. It’s like everybody have like all this beautiful brand new car to drive and big giant house, you know, so something like that. And they have the heat and air conditioning, you know, so, and dishwasher, that’s something new, I never know, right–because even when I use dishwasher, I just put little dishwasher–what’s that–dishwasher in the machine. You know, of course you’re gonna cause all the bubbles fly out from the whole floor, you know? So–and microwave, I don’t know about microwave, too, so, because microwave is like you cannot put the metal or gold leaf or whatever in there, and I put the metal in there, you know. And it caused all the sparkles all over the place, you know. So yeah, that’s something really I feel like I’m so dumb because I don’t know this stuff, you know (25:00). So pretty much, yeah. And what else I think is like… And also it’s about learning English too, you know. How to be like “please” or “thank you” and really polite (25:00) and all that way, you know.
Ella: Did you have anything to use to learn English? Did you have a little dictionary with you? Did you have any sort of–like a textbook? Or how did you really learn English? I mean, now you’re in the environment. People are talking to you in English. Were there any resources that you were able to use, a book that you had?
Phim: Back then when I come to U.S. I have my dictionary with me, you know. And of course I watch a lot of TV, you know, so to helping to listen and all that. And also like when I’m start working, I’m working with–I do nail in Dallas, Texas. After I quit the first job I have is a hair salon with Lao people. And then, they were kind of helping me with translating a lot too. And after I quit that salon, and I work with Vietnamese salon, it’s like nail salon, now I have to learn all English. So through all the clients and my coworkers, because I don’t speak Vietnamese either, you know? So something like that. And then, of course dictionary, and then also I go to school weekend. Like I go to ESL in college, community college in Dallas. So I gone–I think like probably maybe two, three–some two or three years, kind of like two, three year, but I go only weekend, but I’m work full time, right? So and then weekend every weekend I go for my English class so it mean I kind of don’t have no break, you know, so that’s how I learn English.
Ella: So when you came to the states, did they honor your degree that you had gotten in Laos? Was that–were you able to use that at all or was that…?
Phim: No.
Ella: No, they don’t honor that.
Phim: No, they don’t honor that because they’re saying that if- Because I come here and they ask them, “can I use my finance and accounting degree here?” They say no, because it’s all different system, different program. They say if I want to use that, or I want to continue to do what I do, they say that I have to go back to school here. And that’s why I’m saying no, I don’t have time and money for it, you know. So that’s why I’m just kind of pursuing the salon.
Ella: Mhm, so you’re doing your English classes on weekends and nights? Did you say nights? I’m sorry, just weekends?
Phim: They on weekend, but daytime. But all day on weekend, like Saturday, Sunday.
Ella: Right, you’re learning English, but you’re not working towards another degree in the states. Right? Or were you going to like nail school at that time as well?
Phim: No. But then I kind of like work like more like simple and helping and I got training to do nail the same time. So, but they kind of pay me by hour, you know, so I don’t make commission, I kind of make like by hour salary thing. So that’s why I still like go to school part time, you know, kind of part time for my English. And by the time when I go to school to learn, do nail and everything, when I move to Virginia. Because I live in Dallas, Texas for three years.
Ella: Three years, okay.
Phim: And then I come to Virginia and then I- if I want to continue to work in a salon, I have to have a license to do nail. So that’s why I go to get my license in Falls Church.
Ella: Mm, in Falls Church, yeah. Right, so you’re moved to Virginia. What kind of- what made you go to Virginia? What pulls you to Virginia? Because it seems like you had a good group of Lao immigrants in Texas as there was.
Phim: The reason I come here because I have my ex boyfriend back then. He got a job transfer, so that’s why I kind of follow him.
Ella: Follow him to Virginia.
Phim: Yeah, so follow him come here and then–when the first time, when I come visit to Virginia before we decide to move here, and we come visit Virginia first, and then I really fall in love with Virginia because it have four seasons. It have a lot more trees, and it have little snow, and the leaves is changing color, and it’s so pretty, you know, and it have more mountain. But Dallas, Texas, it’s just flat and not much tree, it’s a lot of dust, you know, so something like that. That’s the reason why we move come here.
Ella: That’s nice. So, for the people that you met when you were in Dallas–so your first experience in America, you get your job, you know, you get all settled in, your uncle helps you out–what was the community like of other people that spoke Lao and other people that, you know, you were interacting with around that time?
Phim: Other people interacting back then is–they kind of (30:00), they just–they’re kind of more like American-Lao, because the way they grow up over here, they’re kind of more–they have like American culture already, you know. They adapt to American culture.
Ella: Not many others like you. They would, you know, be born in the states, right?
Phim: Yeah, they… No, some of them, they come here when they’re young.
Ella: At a young age, right.
Phim: But they come here longer. And they, most of them, they come with the whole family. So, most of the people I know, they all have big family. And then they all stay in group. You know, something like that.
Ella: You stick together, absolutely.
Phim: Yeah, they are stick together. Yeah. But I just know those people just only few year, and then I move to U. S., and then I kind of lost the contact and all that kind of stuff.
Ella: Of course, yeah. Were they all kind of working in the same businesses as well or is everyone sort of crowding around the nail tech industries? Anyone else working any sort of fields? Anyone working any sort of accountants or like financing? Anything?
Phim: The Lao people, the people I know in Texas? No, I think most of them, they in the beauty business.
Ella: Building, alright.
Phim: No, beauty.
Ella: Oh, beauty business. Yeah.
Phim: Yeah. Beauty business. Because from like, I’m kind of–when I come to U. S., I kind of end up fall into the salon job. So that’s why the people I know, they more involved with salon. Because from I work from this salon, and then I quit from this salon, and I go to the next salon, right? Whatever you involved with, you’re going to kind of know all that same kind of job of the people, you know, something like that.
Ella: You see everyone else doing the same thing. They get involved, and they stick with it.
Phim: I just kind of follow them and know that kind of stuff. Yeah.
Ella: Right. So you never used your accounting degree?
Phim: Pretty much–I use my accounting degree when I start do my own business.
Ella: Right, yeah.
Phim: When I start do my own salon here. Yeah–it kind of really good to have background about controlling finance. And the money in and out.
Ella: That’s important.
Phim: Yeah, it’s really, really important. Actually, I’m so grateful I know that, actually. So that way I’m more smarter with my money and then, so if I invest this much money to buy all my supplies and then how much I gonna have to make it, to make money from that, you know.
So something like that. I have my money out, and then they make sure that my money in have to be covered, all explained and everything. It actually is really, really good to help, to have that background, yeah. So it’s so important.
Ella: Yeah, absolutely. Now, during this time, how are you staying in touch with your family back at home? Are you, you know, are you in close contact with them as much as possible? Is it hard to reach out? Is it difficult?
Phim: Since I come here the first time, until now? So, most of the time when I come to U. S., when I contact with them, I have to call them or buy- write down in letters and send to them, probably takes a couple weeks to get to them. And then once in a while, I just call them by phone. But of course, my parents don’t have a phone because we poor family, right? But the neighbor, they have a landline phone. And then I call them, and of course, they’re gonna have to tell the kid to go find my parents in the whole neighborhood, you know, something like that. But of course, when I call them, I have to go buy the phone card. So, the phone card, and then you have to scrape them out, then you have to put the number codes in there, and call them–sometimes the signal is terrible, you know, you don’t really hear much, you know. But we get through it. At least I call them, at least maybe once or–once or twice a week or something like that.
Ella: Yeah, that’s good. It’s good that you can reach out.
Phim: Yeah. But it’s kind of funny–every time I call them and my neighbor, they answer and they say, “oh, okay. So now we’re going to have to find a kid in the front of the house to go find your parents.” Something like that, haha. It’s just kind of like a big scene, you know. Every time they call home, you know.
Ella: Yeah, you’re a celebrity.
Phim: Yeah, it means the whole neighborhood knows. They yell out the whole neighborhood. So many people have to call where my parents they are, where it is, you know, it’s hilarious, yeah. It’s funny–it’s so different from back then and now, but now everybody have cell phone now, right? And cell phone, and then after that, I still use phone card for a while to call them, and then all of a sudden Facebook exists!
Ella: Boom (35:00).
Phim: Yeah, boom! Everybody have Facebook account. Now we all can talk through a messenger.
Ella: Yeah, much more connected.
Phim: Yeah, it’s more better. And now we don’t–I don’t have to buy phone card anymore. So and then… I believe probably my parents not even know my cell phone number because from they never try to call me anymore. When they want to call me they just use Messenger from Facebook now.
Ella: They hit your name and there you are.
Phim: Yeah, exactly. It’s so easy now.
Ella: Another thing I want to talk about is citizenship, right? So this is something that I’m sure you were thinking of from even before you booked the flight over to the U. S. What were the citizenship guidelines for someone from Laos coming to the United States at that time?
Phim: I think talking about the U. S. citizenship, you have to go through a lot of the immigration process, you know? Like, I think when I come here, and then I have to get a working visa. It looked like I have–I have to have green card. Right? So that’s the first step. When I got here, and then they’re gonna process all everything, and then they’re gonna have a green card. I have to apply for green card. So because since I come for a student visa from now from like student visa and now I have to apply for like green card. And then from the green card and then maybe three four years or something like that and then you have to go through all that before you even can apply for the citizenship, you know.
Ella: Right.
Phim: So to go through all that green card and citizenship, it means like for my student visa. And then I have to–when I met my ex boyfriend and then we agreed to get married. When we agreed to get married, and then I can apply for all this citizenship, right? So, yeah, but it’s–the period of time to do that is like four, five years. Yeah, that’s minimum. Or sometimes it takes a little bit longer. It depends what your position you are back then, you know.
Ella: Right, I’m sure.
Phim: For me I think it takes long time because for my come with a student visa, and then I stay in Dallas, Texas, for three year, and then when I move with my ex boyfriend back then and then we come to Virginia and then we got married and then I talk with the lawyer and then I apply for all this paperwork. Yeah, it takes at least probably six, seven years for me.
Ella: Mm, yeah. Which is pretty standard, yeah? Especially after 2001, right?
Phim: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pretty much, yeah.
Ella: Was he a citizen?
Phim: Yeah, my ex? He’s American.
Ella: He’s American, gotcha.
Phim: He’s American, yeah. So, and also talking about all immigration, you cannot rush. Everything takes so long.
Ella: Time is important.
Phim: It’s really long time. I think–let me see. No, from now when I flash back, I think I got my–what’s that–ten year before I got my citizenship, yeah. I think I remember perfect anniversary for ten year. For me, I got my citizenship, and then I go home to visit my family the first time after ten years.
Ella: The first time?
Phim: Yeah, takes ten years total.
Ella: That’s crazy.
Phim: Yeah. It means I’m in–I’m in Texas. Dallas, Texas for three years that I’m still in the student visa, right? And then I come to Virginia and then got married and apply for green card and citizenship total seven years on top of three years total ten years for me.
Ella: Right, wow.
Phim: Ten years. Long time, haha. So yeah, sometimes you just think, “okay, wow, how you can do that?” But one day at a time. You know, so and then you waiting and waiting and waiting. And then it’s a lot of time and fee, money, to pay for all this fee and stuff, you know, and lawyer. It’s not easy, yeah.
Ella: I’m sure every other migrant you’ve probably talked to has said the same thing, you know, it’s about time. It’s about waiting it out.
Phim: Exactly. It’s like we go through almost the same phase, the people whoever I talk to, but it’s just different, like the time. Some people, they come here, they got it in like five years right away. Some people take over ten years. But my case, I take ten years total.
Ella: Right, yeah. That seems like a good middle ground (40:00), you know? How crazy was it to go back home for the first time? After ten whole years?
Phim: It’s really exciting, I gone home, you know, the first time. And of course, my whole family really, really excited for me to come home, you know.
Ella: Yeah, it’s a huge deal.
Phim: But of course, the first time when you go home, everybody think you rich. You know, yeah, when you go home, they respect you like, oh, give them thousand dollar each person, you know. No, I cannot!
Ella: You rich American.
Phim: Yeah, but for me, at least before I go home, I really prepare myself for it. I know long time I didn’t see my family and all that kind of stuff, you know, and I already save long time. I save money for long time to go home, you know.
Ella: I bet so.
Phim: Yeah, and I go home and of course everybody want to come see me and all that kind of stuff, visiting me and all that, but of course the expectation is so high. Because they think like the people come from U.S. we all automatically have lots of money, but they don’t know that we all, anywhere you live, you have to work for, you know?
Ella: Absolutely.
Phim: So, but of course, the value of U. S. is more money than my currency, you know? Because, for example, the U.S. money over here, if $100 for me, probably helping somebody grocery for whole month or something like that, you know? So, yeah. Pretty tough. When the first time I go home, I’m excited and pretty–what can I say? A little bit sad at the same time, too. Because when I go home and then especially my aunt and uncle they come visit and they expect me to give them lots of money. But I still give them couple hundred dollar for each family, but I cannot give couple hundred dollar for each person, right? But for them they expect more but when I cannot give it to them and then they’re not happy. It kind of makes me sad because I’m already try my best to like give them some gift, something. But they’re not appreciate it. Right, so that’s kind of mixed feeling about. Right, so I’m happy to see them, but I’m not happy the way they’re not happy I give- the gift I give to them. Right, so that’s why it kind of like, yeah, it kind of like, it kind of like mixed feeling like it’s not good enough for them. You know, so something like that. Yeah, so that’s how I feel.
Ella: Oh, that’s interesting, yeah.
Phim: So because probably not only me though. From what I talked to with all different people come from different country, or even the people from my own country too, we have the same kind of experience, you know. So because the people back then- back home, they don’t understand. We are work the same thing, like they work over there, but just only the currency is different, that’s all, you know?
Ella: Yeah, that’s hard.
Phim: Exactly.
Ella: A lot of your family hasn’t left Laos, have they?
Phim: My second sister, she left my country when she thirteen, but she in Thailand.
Ella: Right.
Phim: Yeah, in Thailand, but nobody come to U.S. yet. But they still have to wait for me to sponsor them, you know, but the thing is to sponsor someone to come here it’s not easy. Number one, it’s ten years and also I have to pay for the lawyer. And of course for them, since the money they make over there it’s so hard for them to save up money to pay for the lawyer the way how like the lawyer fee here is so- it’s really expensive, you know. Three to five thousand dollars. It’s kind of- it’s not a lot for us here, but it’s still so much, a lot more for them to save that much money, right? So, yeah, something like that.
Ella: It’s a different system. It’s hard to do.
Phim: Exactly, exactly. But it’s still they have to really pool everything from their whole family to pay for one person, or something like that.
Ella: Mhm. And when you were in the–as you’ve been in the United States, you’ve been working in nail tech the entire time? Just the beauty industry? Have you picked up any other gigs while you’ve been, you know?
Phim: Yeah, since when I come here and when I start working to do nail, you know, back then, it kinda beginning I want to do hair, right? When I’m in Dallas, Texas. But when I go talk with the school, I have to go to school full time for whole year (45:00). And to- for the school, I have to pay $15,000 cash, right? So back then, I don’t- number one, my English not really good. If I don’t know English really well, I cannot do hair. Because I have to understand what the client wants. If I mess up somebody’s hair, they hate me the rest of their life, right?
Ella: Right, one bad review, haha.
Phim: Yeah, exactly. And then, when I do–I go talk with about nail school, it take about three months to five months. So it cost me about $5,000. And then if you don’t really know English really well, but if you understand how to do nails, you can do nails. So that’s why I choose that route first.
Ella: Right. You see how it’s easy for other people here.
Phim: Yeah so… And then I think, “okay, after I do nails for a while, and then I save my money, and all that, so maybe if I still want to do hair, I’m going to go back to do hair,” right? So, but it never happened because when I start do nail and then saying, “oh my god, to do all the nail extension and everything is–it’s a lot of experience and patience,” right? So and then after that to do nail only–to live in Virginia–it cannot possible. Because like if you make $35-50,000, you cannot live around here.
Ella: Yeah, very expensive area.
Phim: Yeah exactly. And then I go back to school to learn eyelash extension. So, that I go train for that. I got my- actually that’s my third license. Because to do hair- or do nail, and I learn facial the same time. I got two license the same time. Because facial license, it cover waxing license. So that’s why I can–I got two license back then. After that, my my income to live in this area is still low, so I then go for training for eyelash extension. So after I learn eyelash extension and then, since I already involved with the people face and everything, I go back another fourth time for my school to learn permanent makeup. You know, so that take me long time to finish that class and require a lot of study to pass the state exam, 150 questions. So, yeah, I know. So it take me three time to pass my test, haha. Yeah, but it’s worth it, you know, because I love all this to deal with the people face and then after… it kind of bring my feeling back because since in the beginning I want to be doctor, right? Yeah, I want to helping people, but I’m so glad I choose this beauty industry. Because when I finish to take care of people, make them happy to love my salon. To make them look better, to make them feel good about themselves, and then that kind of makes me happy. Like I’m saying, “okay, I doesn’t become doctor, at least I’m become somebody to help somebody feeling good about themselves to walk out from the salon,” you know?
Ella: It’s still a social position. You’re making a lot of friends this way, absolutely.
Phim: Exactly, but of course- I kind of don’t deal with their sickness, haha.
Ella: You get to see them at their most beautiful and not their most ugly, haha.
Phim: Exactly, exactly.
Ella: You’ve met a lot of other migrants to the U. S. around this area too, haven’t you? You know, like Kim, isn’t she from Korea, right? You know a bunch of other friends from different places.
Phim: Exactly. When I come to U. S., you know, it kind of like a melting pot. Because I get to meet a lot different kind of people and from different country. You know, I have friends from Korea, and especially Vietnam. And of course like the neighbor, Thai, few of them, but I don’t really know Lao people, believe me or not, because from I don’t go to Temple. I don’t practice my religion anymore. If I don’t go to Temple, I don’t know Lao or Thai people, you know?
Ella: Right.
Phim: And of course I have my friend, like from Mexico. A lot from Mexico. And then Brazil and–then like, what’s that?–Peru, you know, and Chinese and Japanese, you know, so all different kind of friends, and from different kind of businesses I met in around working circle people, you know?
Ella: Right. Mhm, you compare your stories and find a lot of similarities, I bet.
Phim: Exactly, exactly.
Ella: And you were talking with- about (50:00) not going to Temple anymore. Was that a hard decision for you? Or did it ever really cross your mind? Was that, you know, when you were first assimilating?
Phim: To go to Temple is- because like the thing is they don’t have a lot of Temples around, right?
Ella: Right, there’s not many.
Phim: Yeah, there’s not many, and then sometimes to go to Temple, I know you can go on weekend and all, like any day, you know? But it’s one of those things, since I’m the person when I grow up, I’m not really a religion person, you know? But I do practice, because from how I grow up, but I’m one of those people I don’t have to go to Temple all the time, because about my religion, it’s just about belief. You do good, good thing happen. You believe about karma, you know, so that’s why I think it’s just- it’s all from your heart, you know? If you’re a good person you can do good to anything, right? So you don’t have to be go to Temple. That’s how the person I believe about thing, you know.
Ella: Right, that makes sense.
Phim: Yeah, sometimes I heard some people they go to Temple all the time. From morning and lunch time. Because when you go to Temple you go in morning or noon, right? That’s all in my religion. But they come out and they curse everybody, you know? See, it don’t make sense. That’s how I believe, you know, kind of based on if you’re a good person anyway you’re kind of good, right? You don’t have to go to Temple to ask the god to forgive you, you know? So something like that, haha.
Ella: It’s not how you practice, it’s how you, you know, behave in the real world.
Phim: Yeah, yeah exactly. You practice it on your heart. It’s not about you go to Temple every day and then you kick- kick the dog when you’re on the way out, you know, so something like that, you know, haha.
Ella: Well, I’m glad, yeah. Look at you now–here you are, living in Northern Virginia, and you have a wonderful, loving family, and you’re able to get all these licenses, and you’re able to, you know, have savings and work up and get a beautiful house, you know, and make all these wonderful friends. Do you feel American?
Phim: Me? Okay, so–when it come to this point, I’m here for twenty-two years, right? Twenty-two–it’s gonna be twenty-three years. Yeah, the 23rd. Perfect, your birthday.
Ella: Oh, actually, haha.
Phim: Yeah, it’s gonna be in my twenty-third year in us. I think I’m kind of adapt to American culture. Because since I come here right after I finish my college, and then it mean my adult life, working and become grown up person, I’m in U.S.
Ella: Right.
Phim: So that’s why I’m kind of more adapt to American culture. But when I go home, I don’t feel I’m fit right into the people back home. Because I’m changed so much, you know, so how I’m seeing things or I’m just the way I’m behaving, so maybe I’m the way I’m acting toward to the thing around me, you know, so I’m feel like I’m changed a lot because I’m more adapt to American culture. It doesn’t mean I try to be someone I’m not, but it’s just the way- since my working or every day I live, you know, I’m live around American people. Because I don’t have a lot of Lao friends, or Asian friends. I do have Asian friends, but they seem more like American culture- we carry American culture more, you know, so something like that, the way we acting, we talking, and how we live and all that kind of stuff, yeah.
Ella: You definitely have your Lao identity while you’re here. You’re very proudly Lao. But you don’t feel as Lao anymore when you’re with your family in your home country.
Phim: Oh yeah, I do. I do. But I’m just not- I’m more outspoken. And I’m more like timing, schedule, so I’m more those kinds, like I respect the time, I respect the schedule, I respect the rule, because that’s how American people here, we have to respect the rule, right? Looks like okay, at the red light you have to stop. If they say no turn left, no turn left. But then you go to my country, no. They say “no turn left,” they all turn left. You know, something like that. And then I’m the person–it bothers me because from- “why you guys doing that?” (55:00) Because seeing, but they saying they all do it because they just don’t understand about timing or take turn or anything like that because I’m changing. The people back then don’t change. You understand what I’m saying?
Ella: Yeah.
Phim: Yeah, and I’m the person- and also, you have to be fair and you try to really speak a lot of truth, right? But, when I go home, the people, they just still play around or they don’t respect the time and all that kind of stuff. It just kind of- that’s how they are, you know? Because that’s the way they grow up, you know, so and something like that. I’m more the person like other people in American culture. Yeah, so I’m the person like, okay, exactly, like the time, you know, so yeah.
Ella: Well yeah, thank you, thank you so much for your time. This has been- this has been wonderful.
Phim: Yeah, you’re welcome, I’m glad. And hopefully I told you some stuff, you know, hopefully not too much, you know.
Ella: Haha, I know I have tons to write about. I’m excited to get started, and I’m excited to show you my finished project as well.
Phim: Yeah, let’s see how everything–you cut off some stuff or whatever, you know, so if the thing is don’t meant to be there, you can just take it out, yeah.
Ella: Haha, my pauses and such, yeah.
Phim: So I hope it helping you some information.
Ella: Mhm, it’s wonderful to get another insight or- yeah, different views into the migration process. I mean, a lot of people that I know are migrants from Mexico, from Latin America, from Venezuela. So it’s- and then also, you know, my dad’s side, right. Italian, everyone from Europe, you know, those are very similar immigration stories. So it was wonderful to hear from like a different perspective, absolutely.
Phim: Yeah, pretty much. And, of course, it’s culture shock. It’s totally different thing, you know, when you come here and go back to like Asia, they just totally, totally different, yeah. One day you can go visit and see your own, you know, so what I’m talking about.
Ella: I would love to come see. Other side of the earth, haha.
Phim: Exactly, exactly.
Ella: Thank you so much!
Phim: You’re welcome! Yeah, you’re welcome.
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