“Being a Minority Within a Minority”

Shai: Alright, here we go. Okay, so we’ll just start with some basic questions. So we’ll start with where you immigrated from and how old you were when you immigrated to the U.S.? 

Fraya:  Um, so I was three going on four and I immigrated from Ethiopia, it’s a little country in East Africa.

Shai: Okay and where did you guys move to when you came to the U.S.? 

Fraya: Um, I think it was Maryland. My dad got here before us, two to four months before us. I can’t really remember though, because I was three. So, he had this little apartment that he had set up before we got here, so we moved in with him in lil’ Maryland. 

Shai: And what was it  growing up in Maryland? 

Fraya: Um, no lie again, not very much of a memory, that apartment, every single time we drive by it, when we’re going around the DMV area, he goes “Yeah that’s where we used to live.” And I said, and I just I don’t recall, I don’t recall, because we only lived there for a few months and then we immediately moved to here, with my aunt. So I have good memories of that though. We lived in one of their bedrooms, and there was me, and then another family friend, their whole family was living in the other one of their rooms, and they had their basement too and um, we all just, it was one big happy family there you know? 

Shai: That’s nice. 

Fraya: Yeah.

Shai: I’m sure it was a big transition. So it’s kind of nice to have, people you’re familiar with, in a very unfamiliar place.

Fraya: Yeah. 

Shai: So, why was it that your family immigrated to the U.S.? 

Fraya: Um, we, my father won this thing called the DV lottery, or at least that’s what he called it and it’s called the Green Card Lottery. They basically give out green cards, which is  permanent residence here. And he took it, and we moseyed on over to the U.S. 

Shai: And what was it  growing up in Ethiopia? Do you have any specific memories of being there when you were younger? 

Fraya: Um, I remember, all my, family members, my mom would always drop me off at my grandparents house because they would both be working all the time, both my parents, and so I have very fond memories of my grandparents estate, I say estate but it’s just everyone basically buys property, and then they build their own place and they put up you know, what’s it called? A fence. A fence around it. So, I remember, running around there playing with my cousins and my grandma used to wash my hair with Irish Spring and I’d put my head over this little divot we had and she’d just pour water onto my head. And I remember walking around the streets, oh my God, the streets are my favorite because they would have, the rows of people, I mean, they’re homeless people, but they’d be selling things, think they’d have these little knickknacks or they have sometimes if you were lucky, you’d get these people that made corn on the cob, but they would roast it on the fire. Yes, yes. 

 Shai: And did you have any expectations when you first came to the U.S.? Did you have any preconceived notions? 

Fraya: Yeah, basically. America is very big in other countries, especially in third world countries. They see it as this huge “Oh my God it’s America, they got skyscrapers and New York and DC and all that fun stuff!” It was the land of the free. So I was over here with all my preconceived notions from watching TV with my dad all the time and stuff and we got here, and it was so rural, because it was Maryland. I was like “This is what y’all call America? Y’all hype it up way too much.” 

  Shai: And depending on what part of Maryland you’re in too, you’re probably like “What is this?” 

Fraya: Yeah I was like “Y’all we got trees at home.” 

Shai: “Can we go back?” 

Fraya: Facts! Yeah. It was just‒it was kind of a disappointment, which is basically what everyone says when they come here. My grandpa, he was like y’all, he said the same thing about the trees, he was like “There’s just trees here. What’s so great about it?” My grandma, on my mom’s side, she had thought that we had friggin’ grounds made of gold, skyscrapers and glass everything. I was like “Grandma no, it’s bricks.” 

Shai: That’s it.

Fraya: That’s about all we got.

Shai: Bricks and cement. 

Fraya: Yep. 

Shai: Okay, and did a lot of your family‒has any of your other family immigrated to America or is most of your family in Ethiopia still? 

Fraya: So, um, I mean, of course, my immediate family. I have that family friend, they’re basically family, I call them my cousins. They got the lottery at the same time as we did. We have some family scattered around in‒what’s it called? California. Yeah. They are‒the family members that are in California we use‒ they‒we lived in the same estate area, we shared that property until they had their house across the way and we had ours, right‒we were neighbors and so there’s them. And then we have a few more in New Jersey, but we all came at  different times. The only ones that came at the same time as us were the ones that we were living with here in Virginia. 

Shai: Yeah. And do you guys go back to visit family that you have in Ethiopia often or  when you can? 

Fraya: Um, we used to, it used to be a yearly vacation type thing, and then it turned into an every few years, and then I haven’t been there since middle school. So, I mean, I hope we can go back soon. Now after this whole pandemic. 

 Shai: It’s kinda hard to do that right now because of all the stuff going on. What was the hardest thing that you felt like you had to face when you first came to the United States? 

Fraya: Um, it was, mostly the cultural shock‒it’s very different here. There’s different rules socially, you know? My mom still hasn’t comprehended that just because you see a cute baby, you can’t just pick it up and kiss it. Yeah you can’t, you can’t do that. And so, there’s stuff like that, or I remember, she would tell me stories of‒back at home, when you move somewhere new you go to your neighbors, you knock on the door, and you say, “Hey, y’all want coffee?”, because coffee is a big thing you know? Coffee originated from Ethiopia, so we’re very big on coffee. So I remember her going and asking my neighbors if they wanted coffee and they looked at her like she was insane and then she was like “Okay so everyone’s crazy.” So now whenever she‒to this day, whenever she hears someone knock on the door, she gets all anxious, like “Oh my God, who is that?” Her immediate question is “Who is it? Who is it?” and so the social stuff, I guess, that and English. English was just weird to learn, I didn’t really‒I was in ELL in school, but I didn’t really need to be by the time I got into school, ‘cuz I’d watched a lot of TV and learned English from there, and my aunt, the one we were living with here, me and her used to go back and forth and back and forth, my mom still tells me stories. She was like “Yeah, y’all would be saying things, I didn’t even understand what you guys were talking about, but you were having conversations.” I’m like “Yeah, yeah. Thank her for my superb English.” 

Shai: And was there anybody here that made the transition easier for you? 

Fraya: Um, it’d have to be my mom. Mostly because when we were you know, moving from DC to Maryland to Virginia, trying to find one place to stick. My dad would always just be out working, so it’d always just be me and my mom. So thankfully, she wasn’t working like she was back at home, mostly because she didn’t know how to speak to these people, but if she hadn’t been there, I probably wouldn’t have any good memories of my childhood here because I’d be alone, you know? But we always, we always, um, would go outside and play and she was very, you know, socially anxious, so I wasn’t allowed to go play with the other little kids, but, you know, I had my little toys that she’d buy me she’d give me lots of stuffed animals, so that was fun. But yeah, me and her we just stuck it out together while my dad was out working. 

Shai: Yeah. And what kind of work did your parents do when you guys first got here, well your Dad? 

Fraya: I mean, okay, so my dad to this day, he still drives a taxi, it’s a very Ethiopian thing to do. It’s a big joke in our community that everybody just drives taxis and that’s what he did back at home too. But back at home, he had a whole other myriad of other jobs, but here it was just taxi, taxi, taxi, and then right now, he’s currently working in construction, but that was because  the pandemic messed up his business, so he’s got that little thing going on the side. But there’s that and then my mom, she ended up‒when we were in DC, she went to school with my aunt, the one that we live‒ that immigrated at the same time as us. They went to nursing school, but for nursing assistants, and so they started working as home aid cares and my mom has a job in home aid care now that she, you know, she goes over to people’s houses and you know, gives them sponge baths and cooks them food, and make sure they don’t choke on their food and all that stuff.

Shai: And what was it like attending school here in the U.S., what are some similarities and differences between U.S. schools and Ethiopian schools? 

Fraya: Similarities, they have grades, that’s fun. Other than that, it’s very different,  American school compared to most other countries, it’s a joke, but compared to Ethiopia, and most West‒not Western, Eastern countries, especially, it’s very loose. Back at home it was very strict rules, you know, you had‒doesn’t matter if it was public school, you always had a uniform and if you weren’t in uniform, you were graded for that, and we had a hygiene grade so your nails had to be cut a certain way, you couldn’t be wearing jewelry. 

Shai: American schools could lowkey use that. 

Fraya: Yeah, with all these things‒you know what let me stop. 

[both laugh] 

Fraya: But yeah, and there’s also you know, the whole disciplinary thing there. I have  memories of being whipped back at home where that‒here, they would catch a clean case, you know? Yeah. So it’s very there’s a lot of differences, especially on how much they focus on education. Here, school is oh the school has a reputation that they have to, you know, stay by, so they want all their students to pass, so they teach them how to take standardized tests. Back at home, it’s you need to learn this, you need to know this. So they’ll teach math from the youngest age. I remember, I had my cousin, she was talking on the phone with us, and I was in high school. She was in the same grade as my sisters at the time, so maybe first, second grade and she was already doing multiplication, division and I was over here like “True. Okay. Oh, yeah, you’ve got that.” because I could never. I  still struggle with my timetables.

Shai: Yeah I felt that.

Fraya: Yeah, so it’s just, I don’t know, it’s a lot more strict is the only word I can‒ it’s more rigorous, yeah, that’d be the word for it. And there’s also this system with our schools back home. Excuse me. Where after, I think it’s eighth grade, you have to choose a certain path for school. So either you do a science and math path where you take all your science classes and all that stuff, or you do an arts, liberal arts path, where you do  English, history and all that stuff. So there’s that difference too here, you just you do whatever the curriculum tells you, you know there’s not really much choice. 

Shai: Yeah. And what was it like socially, being here in American schools, because I’m pretty sure it’s probably a different kind of social, cultural type thing? 

Fraya: Socially, I don’t know how to word it back at home, the people you went to school with you would walk with them, because you know, we don’t have school buses or they’re  your neighbors that your mom would drive you with them. So you’d go to school you would have those friends throughout the entire day. Here, especially with the way they zone schools, you know it’s chance that you make friends, you know, and there’s a lot of social awkwardness here, where like back at home it’s just, “Hey, how you doing? Can I sit here? Oh, you like that food? My mom made me some last night.” You know? Here it’s just‒it’s very, I don’t want to say cliquey but it’s just, it’s not the same socially. What are the differences? There’s the fact that recess time, that’s an always thing, it doesn’t just go away after high school or I mean after middle school or elementary school. Recess is recess, you gotta have outside time. So when we have that, I remember my older cousins, they would be talking about “Yeah, during recess I walked back home and went and had more food.” I’d be like “What? That’s cool.” Here they just take 

[both speaking-unclear] 

Fraya:  Yeah. You’re not even allowed to leave the premises and it’s just okay, I guess. So that was kinda different too. 

Shai: Yeah, I’m sure that was probably a big adjustment as well. 

Fraya: Yeah. 

Shai: Are there any specific cultural traditions that your family brought with you guys? 

Fraya: Holidays are very big. Especially because it had‒Ethiopia is very religious. We have this whole I don’t want to call it a superiority complex but it’s a superiority complex, ‘cuz it’s East Africa, where people originated, humans originated so you’ve got that whole thing going on and talking about, yeah Adam and Eve were here and all that. So, they’re very big on God and Christianity and religion in general and so all of our holidays are centered around just Christianity and the church. New Year, you go to church, you know? Christmas, of course, you go to church, but they also have a holiday for each of the archangels so that’s fun and we brought that tradition with us. We don’t ever not‒we would‒we have to make bread, so my mom will, you know, go and bake a big old loaf of it and my dad will bless it, we’ll cut it up, pass it around, and be like “Alright. Happy St. Michael.” You know? And we also have the coffee ceremonies. I call it a ceremony, it’s basically, we have these decorative tables, they’re kind of small, and these little decorative cups, and they’re kind of espresso cup sized because coffee is made very strong in our culture. And so you know, my mom will have the incense going and makes maybe some popcorn and sprinkle a little sugar on it, and have the bread that she made and you know, she’ll have the coffee ceremony every night, every night, right after dinner. And it still doesn’t click in my head because I was raised here, how you just drink coffee at night and then just go to bed that‒

Shai: Built different.

Fraya: Built different! No, seriously, the caffeine addiction is crazy and so there’s that tradition. There’s of course, the cultural roles, I guess, you know, women cooking dad goes out‒you know, if we have a holiday, usually back at home, we would slaughter you know, an animal, but here that’s frowned upon. So he’s technically not supposed to, but he’ll go to wherever‒the deli that he goes to and he’ll go to the back where they do the slaughtering and he’ll do‒he’ll bless it and slaughter it himself because it has to be him that does it. And so he’ll go to an Ethiopian restaurant, go bring the meat and stuff, so there’s that tradition too. There’s [pauses] so I’ll‒actually that’s all I can think of off the top of my head. Yeah. They’re very fun, it’s very, it’s very cool because we’ll go to church on whatever holi‒big holiday it is, dressed to the nines in our, you know, Ethiopian clothes and usually the theme is white because you know, purity and church and all that. And so we’ll come back and usually the church gives out food on the big holidays, so we’ll have a full belly, come back home, and we’ll bring my dad some and then we’ll have  a big, you know, coffee ceremony and stuff. It’s a very big family time type thing. 

Shai: I was doing some‒because you know me I like to research stuff, so I was up last night on every Atlas website known to man, just looking at all the different cultural traditions, there’s so many things‒I was clicking tabs all over, I was up until two in the morning, it was so bad. 

Fraya: Oh my gosh. 

Shai: But I know that you were born in Ethiopia and then immigrated to the U.S. and I know your sisters were born here right? 

Fraya: Yes. 

Shai: So did that ever‒do you see any differences between how you kind of identify and keep ties with your culture versus how they do? Or do you feel like it’s kind of similar between you guys? 

Fraya: You see a difference, especially with us when it comes to‒they don’t understand sometimes when our parents say “You can’t do that.” For me, it’s like oh, it’s ‘cuz you know, tradition, culture and all that stuff for them it’s like why not? You know? Or language, they don’t really speak our language very fluently ‘cuz, you know, they were raised in an English society and my parents try to get them to talk in the house, but they’re not very good at positive reinforcement, they you know, they get a little too excited when they speak in Amharic. So my sisters will get all shy to do it ‘cuz they don’t want them to make a big deal out of it they’re just speaking you know? So with that especially, you see a difference between us. Other than that, ‘cuz I was so young when I came here, there aren’t too many other differences. There’s‒oh, also etiquette at church. They don’t understand that some of the women, they’re still on that oh, this is basically a little microcosm of Ethiopia when you go to church so the culture in America does not exist, it’s a bubble. So some random lady that you don’t know if you’re dressed improperly, she’s just gonna start fixing your clothes, just touching you and you’re just like “What? What’re you doing? Why?” And so my sisters get very freaked out with that stuff, but other than that they’re pretty used to it.

Shai: And are there specific ways that you try to keep ties with your culture, ‘cuz I know that could probably be hard growing up in America which is very‒completely different society whereas‒there’s not really much of it around, I’m sure. 

Fraya: Yeah. We try to have lots of trips to DC especially, it’s very Ethiopian. You’ll see  our restaurants all over the place and stuff. So we’ll try to make visits there to go to dinner at a restaurant, to give them a little bit of home. And our parents, whenever it’s a  historical type of thing going on my dad especially he’s very big on history, so he’ll give my sister’s a history lesson and every night with their coffee, they be watching, you know, their Ethiopian dramas and you see all the culture there. So, they’ll have my sisters sit with them and watch the comedies with them or we’ll watch it together. Language again. Church is very‒because our culture is centered so much around Christianity, going to church very much keeps us in touch with our culture. That and whenever we have family that goes back home, we have them bring something back for us. So we, you know, have a little bit of home to remember you know? And then we have our necklaces with the‒ well they’re just string. But the church sells them in bulk. Usually, there’s a wooden cross that you wear with it to‒you’ll see it on every Ethiopian you meet. 

Shai: [points to wooden cross hanging on rearview mirror] 

Fraya: Yeah, that one right there! So that’s a very big thing that we make sure that my sisters, especially they know, like this is a symbol not just of your Christianity, but you’re Ethiopian, you know, you’re habesha, so you got to have one of these. Other than that, mostly it’s me and my sisters trying to fight my parents like “Hey, this American thing, we should adopt that.” ‘cuz our culture be a little too strict sometimes.

Shai: Yeah so it’s kind of like trying to integrate the two and make them meet in the middle. 

Fraya: Yeah. 

Shai: A happy medium. 

Fraya: Finding a good [unclear] 

Shai: Equilibrium. 

Both: Yeah! [laughs] 

Shai: So touching on your religious beliefs a little, I know that you said Ethiopian culture is very rooted in Christianity. Has that affected how you view religion in any way? Or do you think that it’s just kind of‒have your parents always‒have they given you the freedom to kind of‒

Fraya: No, never that. 

Shai: Okay. 

Fraya: No, no, no. They’re‒it’s very‒oh, it’s so funny. They’ll start gossiping about people like “Oh did you know this girl, she converted to a different type of Christianity? Remember that one? Remember her?” They’ll be talking amongst each other and they’ll be like “Yeah she’s a‒” they call them p’enté. “So they’ll be like “Yeah she’s a p’enté now.” And I’m just like “Okay? Good for her.” [laughs] Like what do you want me to say? As for my view on religion, they, especially their view of God, you know, it’s more of the Old Testament, he’s to be feared type thing. So I remember every single time I’d be forced to go to church at the ass crack of dawn. I’d be like “Okay, I get it. Cool. Great.” And the preachers, they speak in tongues at this point ‘cuz I’m just like “What are you saying?” I‒they speak in very old Amharic, so I’m just like “Mom, I don’t know what to be doing here.” And so mass, especially, there’s‒it’s so weird to watch. The preacher will say one thing and the whole church will just know when to stand up, when to bow, when to start doing their little Hail Marys and all that and I’m just like well okay. I usually just follow with that and so my view of God was very‒I don’t‒he’s very strict like why would I want to worship him? 

Shai: Yeah exactly. 

Fraya: So, I kind of had to find my own definition of religion and Christianity and I don’t really identify too much with our orthodox views because they’re so rigid, and I prefer to see God as a fatherly, you know, guide. 

Shai: Comforting figure type thing. 

Fraya: Yeah a comforting figure, not someone that’s like, “Yeah you have to follow everything your parents say.” 

Shai: Yeah. 

Fraya: And I’m just like that’s a no. So nowadays, we’ll get into little arguments about what is and isn’t okay in our culture, especially when it comes to my siblings, they’ll try to do something and I’d be like “Yeah that’s fine.” and our parents will be like “Um no that’s a sin.” and I’m like “But it’s not thought, it’s really not, leave them alone.” And so now it’s kind of‒I’ve found my, you know, place in my religion, my God or whatever. So now, it’s more of trying to get my sisters to see it more in that perspective instead of‒’cuz you’ll see it sometimes my sisters will be like “But you can’t do that, God doesn’t like that.” I’m just like “God has other things he’s focused on. There are wars, famines going on okay? So God won’t care if you dye your hair a little bit. It’s okay.” So yeah. 

Shai: I know, my favorite thing is always “God knows my heart.” [laughs] That’s my favorite thing to say [unclear]. 

Fraya: He do. We’re here, we are here. So it’s all good. 

Shai: Yeah, it can be hard, ‘cuz I know my mom’s the same way. She’s always like oh‒it’s always very much, you know, he’s this almighty power, all that and I get that like I agree with that but certain things I’m just like “Yeah, that’s a little too much for me y’all.” 

Fraya: Yeah, please. 

Shai: But another question I had was, were there any specific times in your life where you realized how starkly different Ethiopian culture and American culture were? Whether it was something that happened between you and a friend, family, anything like that? 

Fraya: The discreet racism against black folks was kind of when I was just like “What?” ‘cuz when I went to school, I didn’t really‒ I wasn’t really aware of the whole racial issue in America. I was just kind of like “ Okay cool. I’m here. They’re here.” You know?

So, I remember, these kids were talking about the N-word, and they were like “Yeah it’s a bad word you can’t say it blah blah blah blah” and then they looked at me and I was just like “Okay.” they were like “Can you say it?” I was like “I don’t even know what word you’re talking about? ‘Cuz I really don’t know.” So I went home, and I asked my dad, he was like “The N-word?! You can’t say that, especially not around black people. If you say it they’ll beat you up.” 

Shai: Oh wow. 

Fraya: I said “What? But we’re‒” So I had to recognize that they see African Americans and Africans differently. So that was a big cultural thing that got me, especially when he was like “Yeah you can’t say it ‘cuz you’re not black.” I was like “What? What?” 

Shai: “Come again?” 

Fraya: Last I checked but okay. There’s also‒again the discrete sexism in the culture. I remember making a joke at my mom. She was like‒ I was like “Yeah, I don’t think I want to be an Ethiopian wife because y’all be doing too much. Y’all always have to be cooking, and cleaning and blah, blah, blah.” And she just laughed and I was‒but I was dead serious. I was like “No, I don’t want to do that.”

Shai: That’s not something I want to do. 

Fraya: She was like “Why not? It’s fine, it’s your job.” and I was like “No it’s not. No it’s not. I don’t want to clean. For a man?” 

Both: No. 

Shai: Absolutely not. [laughs] 

Fraya: Absolutely not. So that was a big thing and also the fact that‒it didn’t really hit me until my grandpa was staying with us, but the fact that the children in a family are seen as subordinates rather than members of the family kind of. So, my grandpa was staying with us and one, I had to give up my room. That, okay cool, he needed a bed, that’s fine. But also, my mom started kind of acting a little differently. She would clean a lot more, she would be cooking a lot more, and she would tell us that we couldn’t act a certain way or wear a certain thing and I’d just be like “But why? I don’t get it? It’s just grandpa.” She’s like “Nope. No, it’s just not allowed.” I’m just like “Okay?” and I remember this one time, I was sitting with my elbows on the table and she was like “No. [slaps dashboard] Stop, that’s rude. That’s frowned upon. First of all this is a blessed time, you’re eating you can’t just be all willy nilly.” I said “But‒okay?” 

Shai: I’ve never understood that rule. [laughs] 

Fraya: I’ve never‒I will never get it. And I’m just like “But okay, that’s fine, that’s cool.” Other cultural differences? I see‒’cuz I’m grown now, you know, so I see it a lot more between how my parents treat my sisters versus how they treat other children kind of. My sisters‒if we’re out or whatever, they’re expected to just submit, you know ‘cuz you’re not supposed to act out. 

Shai: Be seen, not heard type thing. 

Fraya: Yeah that kind of thing, or when family comes over or anybody really, doesn’t matter what you’re doing, my dad gets so mad about it. He goes “You know you guys are supposed to stand up whenever somebody new comes into the house. It’s a respect thing.” Especially when he comes into the house. He goes, “Wow. I really raised my children in a society that has no respect.” ‘Cuz we don’t get up when he comes home. I‒what? No, no. So there are just the biggest cultural differences is the respect of elders, type, whole thing. ‘Cuz they’re very‒they’re older than you, they’ve lived more life, they have more wisdom, respect them. I’m more like “But I don’t know them. So no, I’m good.” Yeah. 

 Shai: Definitely more of like a get it, gain it type thing. You know you give it then maybe I’ll give it to you back. Yeah. 

Fraya: Yeah. 

Shai: I think that’s a thing that carries over too. It’s the same thing with my dad, he’s the same way because he grew up very‒his parents were very authoritarian, like “I’m your parent you have to respect me.” 

Fraya: Yeah. 

Shai: So I feel like he’s the same way, but me and him get into little tiffs about that too ‘cuz I’m just like “You can’t say whatever and then expect me to just be like okay!” No. 

Fraya: It’s very authoritarian. Yeah. 

Shai: Especially when I’m older too ‘cuz it’s like we’re both adults, we can talk about it. 

Fraya: See that’s another thing, I‒it doesn’t‒my mom says it all the time, “It doesn’t matter how old you get, you’re still my child.” you know? So I’m over here, nineteen, still asking for permission to go out. So that’s kind of eh, but also [pauses] there’s a certain hold they have on their kids. It’s the kind of society where they’ll pick your husband if they have to. My mom says it all the time “Yeah, you’re gonna marry someone from church.” I’m just like “Am I? Am I really? What if I don’t, what’s gonna happen? I don’t, I don’t get it.” It’s a very complex community, especially when it comes to the whole respecting thing, what is and isn’t right when it comes to elders and stuff. I’ll tell my sisters their teachers are acting rude to them, question them. My parents will be like “No, they’re their teacher, they have to respect them.” What? No. No they don’t. Not if they’re not respecting them. 

Shai: [speaking-unclear] Yeah. 

Fraya: If this teacher is over here cursing them out, you want them to just take it? “Yeah they probably did something.” Did what? They’re children. They’re children. 

Shai: They’re your child more than that. 

Fraya: Yeah exactly. So I’m just like y’all can we just have a moment, please? Respect is earned, not just given out to somebody that’s old. That’s just not how it works. Sorry. 

Shai: Exactly. Yeah. 

Fraya: Yeah. 

Shai: Totally agree. I know we’ve had this conversation before, but I feel like this would be good something to touch on a little ‘cuz me and you always have this conversation quite often but I wanted to go back to kind of how race and ethnicity played a role in your assimilation here and then just in general, because I know a big issue, especially in the Black community is the fact that everybody is always like “Oh I’m Black, so you know I have that African descent.” but they’re very quick to claim that when it’s not really theirs to claim. So I kind of want to get your perspective on how that makes you feel and kind of just go from there, like how that’s played a role in your life and stuff like that. 

Fraya: Like I said, there’s‒as an African, in American society, I’ve gotten to see that African Americans have their own culture, it was forced on them, African Americans were taken from Africa, right? They don’t know where their, you know, origins are, that’s sad but the African in African American is just a label, the same thing with white people in America, they’re European American. There isn’t really an American besides the Natives, right? So, everyone has their own culture here and with Black culture it’s very different, as I’ve said with the whole thing with my dad and the N-word and all that stuff. So I see a lot of times Black people will wear Rastafarian clothes, or wear, you know, the shape of African on their clothes, on earrings, or jewelry and stuff. 

Shai: Yeah, that’s really popular. 

Fraya: Yeah. So that’s my origins, I’m African. I’m just like “You’re not though.” and I’m not trying to‒it’s not like a gatekeeping type of thing.

Shai: Yeah exactly. 

Fraya: Because I’ve seen it there’s a prejudice against Africans coming from African Americans. 

Shai: Exactly. 

Fraya: I get they are the minority in America but there is a minority within them. 

Shai: Exactly. 

Fraya: So they have to be able to recognize that and know that you can still culturally appropriate African culture, especially if it’s not your [unclear]. 

Shai: I think that’s a hard pill to swallow for a lot of Black Americans. 

Fraya: It’s a very hard pill to swallow. So I’ve gotten into arguments with people that are like “Well yeah I’ve got it in my blood, why can’t I blah blah blah?” Okay cool, you want to say you’re Nigerian? What’s going on in Nigeria right now? 

Shai: What have you done to help Nigeria? 

Fraya: What is going on in Nigeria right now? Speak Nigerian for me. What are the tribes? You don’t know what their culture is anymore because there’s a disconnect.

Shai: You’re so far removed from it. 

Fraya: Yeah, there’s this 300 year gap between what is‒what was then and what is now. 

Shai: Exactly. 

Fraya: African culture hasn’t been stagnant either, we’ve been moving on too and we’ve got whole other things that are going on, we’ve got civil wars and crap. So, knowing what’s going on at home, and then seeing how it’s perceived here, it’s very‒it gets me frustrated because it’s hard to explain to them that you are American, you are not African, you are African American, but only because people are too scared to call you Black. 

Shai: Yeah. 

Fraya: That’s it. If you would like to, you know, look into all the cultures and stuff and then you know, participate, that’s cool. That’s great. But with things‒like Kwanzaa, I remember a friend of mine went over‒Sydney was going over how it came up and all that stuff and I sat there and I was like “But I don’t get it?” ‘Cuz it was basically trying to keep in touch with African roots, but instead of taking a tradition that already existed in Africa, they just made their own.  So I was just like “How is that keeping in touch with roots? If you’re just making a whole other thing?”

Shai: Exactly. 

Fraya: You know? It’s just little things like that, that just‒there’s kind of a cognitive dissonance when it comes‒especially to cultural appropriation, they’ll be like “Yeah I can’t wear Chicano clothes, but I can wear a kente.” Is that what it’s called? 

Shai: Yeah. 

Fraya: “Yeah a kente.” and we’ll look at them like the Ghanians, they’re sick. They’re sick and tired of y’all, they really are. 

Shai: They’re over it.

Fraya: You don’t even know if that belongs to a certain tribe or what, you’re just wearing it for fashion at this point.

Shai: Exactly. 

Fraya: They’ll just be like “But that is different.” How? How? Your skin color? Yes, it puts all in the same category. 

Shai: ‘Cuz race is a social construct. [laughs] 

Fraya: Yes exactly but you still have your own culture. 

Shai: Exactly. 

Fraya: There’s‒I mean yeah there is a need to get back in touch with your roots, especially ‘cuz it was forced away from you, but you can’t just touch surface stuff and be like “Yeah.” 

Shai: There’s actually almost an obsession with it. I feel it’s very‒I feel like Black people fail to realize that we built a culture from the ground up, I feel like that’s something to be very proud of. I don’t ever walk around and say “Oh yeah I’m African.” I know somewhere down the line probably but I’m never gonna walk up to you, as someone who was born in Africa and be like “Yeah I’m Nigerian or I’m this, that and the other.” I look crazy saying that. 

Fraya: Exactly. 

Shai: I feel like it’s hard to realize that it’s borderline disrespectful sometimes to people that were actually born in Africa, because you weren’t born there. 

[both speaking-unclear] 

Fraya: You haven’t lived the struggle of it. Of being an immigrant in this society, of being a minority within a minority. 

Shai: Yeah.

Fraya: That just sucks. 

Shai: That’s something that I will never understand. Your experience, I will never be able to fully understand that, the same way that me as a Black American, you probably won’t be able to understand many of the things that come with that, but we have that understanding. 

[both speaking-unclear] 

Shai: We’re able to accept that, but I feel like that’s not something all Black Americans are on yet, which is very much a problem. 

Fraya: Yeah. Which is something that should probably be brought up, especially when it comes to things that‒oh my God, nothing made me more angry than with Black Panther, the amount of people that would come up to me and be like “Yo, let me see the inside of your lip.” What? 

Shai: Excuse you? People said that to you? 

Fraya: Yes! 

Shai: Oh gosh. 

Fraya: So many people! They’d be like “No it’s okay, you can tell me it’s real. It’s okay, it’s alright.” First of all, Wakanda, was a secret, not just to everybody outside of Africa, but people in Africa too. So even if it were real, I still don’t know about it. 

Shai: Exactly. Also I’m pretty sure it wasn’t even located in Eastern Africa, I’m pretty sure it was right in‒in Central Africa, so? 

Fraya: They put it in some‒near some actual African country. One, don’t know why you didn’t just use an actual country that existed, why you had to make a whole new one, ‘cuz there are plenty of African countries, especially now, they have technology beyond my thought. I”m just like, you know, you could have at least given a little credit to them you know? But when it comes to stuff like that, it’s more of the African American view of Africa rather than the actual Africa or with the new movie Beyoncé made. 

Shai: Oh yeah, Black Is King. 

Fraya: Yeah she used African towns and African people, but they can’t even watch it there, it’s on Disney+, you gotta pay for that. 

Shai: Exactly, and what kind of [pauses] I’m trying to look for the word. What sort of, not‒like compensation but I guess something‒for lack of a better word, what are they getting from that? What did they gain from being a part of that? 

Fraya: What did they gain? ‘Cuz I don’t see‒missionaries when they go there and they’re taking pictures of the little kids and stuff, what is‒at that point you’re making them look like an exhibit at a zoo. 

Shai: Exactly. 

Fraya: No, they’re just people. We’re just living our lives. We’re looking at y’all like you’re crazy ‘cuz you‒there’s plenty of things I can say about it, but yeah you know? So there’s distinct differences that, for some reason, African Americans just refuse to recognize, you know? The struggle of being an African in Black culture, there’s this “I can’t find my place.” type thing you know? ‘Cuz can I say the N-word? Can I not? With Black culture, y’all got your cookouts and your music and your gospel music and your food and stuff, I have never, to this day, I’ve never tried, what is it chitlins whatever the crap that is? 

Shai: Girl mm-mm. 

Fraya: Yeah. 

Shai: That stuff is nasty. 

Fraya: [laughs] I believe you.

Shai: It smells awful. 

Fraya: I believe you. 

Shai: I’m not even gonna subject you to that. [laughs]

Fraya: Food especially, I feel like there’s a certain privilege that comes with being African American versus African. ‘Cuz if y’all want to bring your cookout leftovers to school as lunch you can do that. Let me do that [expletive] are gonna look at me like I’m crazy, ‘cuz first of all, why are you eating your food with your hands? You know? Why does it smell like that? Why does it look like that? What’s in it? 

Shai: Exactly. 

Both: It’s just food. 

Fraya: It’s just food. Just let me eat in peace, please. 

Shai: The same way you brought a PB & J, I’ve got this. Let me eat in peace. 

Fraya: Yeah, so it is kind of frustrating to watch sometimes, ‘cuz you see your culture and it’s being used as high fashion or as a way of being more “woke’. “Yeah I’m in touch with my African roots.” Are you though? 

Shai: ‘Cuz what have you done for Mother Africa sir? Ma’am? Whoever? 

Fraya: What have you done? Whoever you are. Especially when they say “Yeah if it gets too whatever here in America, I’m just gonna go back home.” 

Shai: This is your home. 

Fraya: Okay go back home, and then make fun of it because we have porta potties for toilets, some places don’t even got bathrooms. In my home country, the power, in the entire country, just be going out sometimes, or the water supply will just stop. So, are you prepared to give up the privilege that you have here to go back to Mother Africa, whatever that means to you? No. So‒it’s just a conversation that needs to be had. You know?

Shai: Agreed. I know we can’t keep having it to ourselves. [laughs] 

Fraya: Yeah. 

Shai: We should start a podcast. 

Fraya: Aye yo, relax. [laughs] 

Shai: Okay, let’s see, another question I had, kind of just relating back to Ethiopian culture, I know that here in America we have sweet sixteens, a lot of Latino families have quinceaneras, that kind of thing. Is there any sort of coming of age, huge life event that Ethiopian culture focuses on? 

Fraya: Not really, there’s your wedding, but I remember the concept of a sweet sixteen was so weird to me ‘cuz I was just like “You’re just turning sixteen, I don’t get it?” Back at home there‒I feel like most of the “Oh it’s my twenty-first! Oh it’s my eighteenth!” type thing goes along with the laws that are here. Oh you turn eighteen you can vote, you turn twenty-one you can drink. Back at home, if you’re at home you’re drinking anyways, doesn’t matter what age you are, and there aren’t really age based laws there, so there isn’t really a celebration around any coming of age or whatever. Especially because with that‒with the parties and birthday parties and stuff, it’s more of a social thing. If it’s your birthday back at home, it’s your birthday. You go home and you celebrate it with family, you’re not gonna invite a bunch of random people from school, those are your school friends why’re they coming to your house? No. So, it’s very‒it kind of sucks ‘cuz my sisters they be like “Oh yeah I want a sweet sixteen.” Mmm? No, no.

Shai: Your parents are like mm-mm 

Fraya: There’s graduation. Graduation, because our school system isn’t like it is here, the whole country is on the same calendar when it comes to schools. So there’s no, “Oh our district ends at this time or our district finishes at this time.” everybody finishes at the same time. 

Shai: Yeah. 

Fraya: So, when it’s graduation season, you’ll see kids of every age just dressed in their cap and gown from whatever school they’re at, and there’s flowers everywhere ‘cuz that’s something you gotta buy your graduate a flower, not a flower, a bouquet. You’ll see a bunch of animals are being sold at that time ‘cuz you know a whole lot of slaughtering, a lot of blessings and meat being eaten, so that’s a big traditional “Oh yeah I just finished this grade.” or “I’m about to go to college.” or “I just finished college.” Even‒I’m pretty sure even colleges are on the same calendar when it comes to schools. So it’s a big graduation season, but other than that there aren’t really any other coming of age, like “Oh you’re sixteen.” Okay, cool, that’s great. 

Shai: Yeah. Are there any other stories, memories that you‒or maybe any issues that you want to shed some light on? 

Fraya: Mmmmm? Stories? [pauses] Dogs! Oh my God. Pets, I will‒my dad still gets so mad about it, he doesn’t understand the concept of pets. Why do you have animals living with you in your house like they’re your best friend? Especially when it comes to dogs. Dogs back at home, first of all, there are strays everywhere, they’re dangerous, so you were meant to fear them, but the dogs that you do domesticate, you domesticate them for protection. You don’t let it lay up in your bed. 

Shai: Yeah. 

Fraya: Or cats, they’re strays too. You don’t really have a house cat, there’s‒my grandpa had this one cat that liked staying with us so he’d feed her and stuff and she got pregnant and he sold her little kitties and all that. But, pets just in general are something that my dad just can’t grasp for some reason, ‘cuz he’s just like “They’re animals. Why are you letting animals into your home like that?” I’m just like what? It’s okay, just relax. Especially now he’s getting into a lot of arguments with my sisters ‘cuz they’re just like “Can we get a pet? A hamster or a fish? Or something?” He’s just like “No! Why? No, let them live in the wild, leave them alone.” But yeah that’s about it, but honestly I understand it too, especially with‒you know how I fear dogs. 

Shai: Yes, yes. 

Fraya: So when I see people walking their dogs outside and they just let it come near me, I will kick it. I will kick it and it will be your fault because why are you just letting your dog touch people? No! Not everybody likes dogs. 

Shai: Yeah. No, yeah I agree. 

Fraya: It’s a very American, no it’s a very Western thing. 

Shai: “He doesn’t bite. He’s very nice.” No. 

Fraya: [groans] No, no, just no. But yeah. 

Shai: No, I feel that. So we touched on a lot of heavy topics so I’m gonna end it on just a little light note. Do you have any favorite American, and I say American with air quotes, ‘cuz there really isn’t anything American but any favorite American foods or holidays or traditions or anything? 

Fraya: Halloween! 

Shai: Love Halloween. 

Fraya: Because we’re so, you know, God, church, and all that stuff, my dad hates Halloween, he’s like “That’s the devil’s holiday. What’s wrong with you? Why would you celebrate that?” Dude, you get to dress up and eat candy! I love that, I love that so much. There’s so many holidays that are celebrated here, like Valentine’s Day, or Christmas, they get very kind of‒my dad gets, mmm, my mom’s okay with it, my dad gets kind of mad about Christmas, ’cuz he’s just like “They took Jesus’s birthday and they made it a joke, and they put it on the wrong day too.” ‘Cuz our Christmas is in January. 

Shai: [speaking-unclear] 

Fraya: Especially‒and our whole culture is on a whole other calendar. It’s 2011 maybe? ‘12? Yeah. 

Shai: I remember you saying that, that it was on a different year. 

Fraya: Yeah, so it’s two thousand whatever there and so holidays are a very big‒that’s one thing I’m okay with American society, like Western society, they did holidays right. Valentine’s Day and Halloween, with the candy? Yeah. 

Shai: Then the next day it’s 50% off. 

Fraya: Yes. Yes. 

Shai: I love it. 

Fraya: I love it so much. That and [pauses]. 

Shai: We have big food. 

Fraya: Oh my god burgers. 

Shai: Our food’s just ginormous. 

Fraya: Yeah. Yeah, I love the fact that food just comes in big bodied sizes. 

Shai. Extra large. [laughs] 

Fraya: Yeah. 

Shai: It’s supersized. 

Fraya: I love it. I love it. 

Shai: Everyone always just says “Your food is just so big.” I was like “Yeah.” 

Fraya: As it should be, it be filling my tummy up just right. Just right. 

Shai: [speaking-unclear] This is ridiculous. 

Fraya: But it’s okay because you know, it tastes somewhat good, I don’t want to know what’s in it, because you know, the food industry and all that. 

Shai: Yeah. 

Fraya: But food. 

Shai: I’ll let that stay a secret. 

Fraya: Yeah. 

Shai: I’m okay with not knowing. 

Fraya: That’s a secret I’d, I could‒you could take it to your grave. 

Shai: XOXO Gossip Girl [speaking-unclear] 

Fraya: Yeah exactly. 

Shai: But I think that is all my questions, I really appreciate your honesty, your candor. I appreciate you taking your time. 

Fraya: Of course! This was fun.

Shai: Very much a good time! 

Fraya: [laughs] 

Shai: Feels like a podcast. Thank you very much.