Massimo Rampini Interview
HIST 150 Spring 2017
Conducted by Marta Rampini
March 12, 2017
A. This interview was conducted in person and required no edits. I used Voice Memos on my iPhone 6. I sat in a chair across from my father, who sat on the sofa. The phone laid on the table between us. The space was quiet, and had no obstacles. A dog barks at the end of the audio, but does not obstruct anything.
B. My father, Massimo Gianluigi Rampini, was born on 7 June 1956 in Torino (or Turin), Italy to Ausano Rampini and Carla Morsetti. He attended parochial school from fourth grade to the eighth grade, then moved on to public high school until he was accepted to the Polytechnic University of Torino in 1976. He studied architecture there before receiving his doctorate in 1982. In 1983, my father was drafted into the Italian army, and in 1984 he moved to Washington, D.C. before permanently settling in Charlottesville, VA. In the first years that he was living in Virginia, he learned English and worked at two different architectural firms before starting his own custom home corporation in 1989. Less than a decade later (1996), he was naturalized at Monticello and officially became an American citizen. In 1998, I was born to my father and my mother, Marcy Rampini. In 2000, my brother, Matteo Paolo, was born. We still live in Charlottesville, VA.
C. My father talked in detail about the Italian Mafia and the Red Brigades, so I specifically researched those two organizations. The Italian Mafia prevailed heavily in southern Italy, especially in Sicily. This organized crime group murdered and manipulated throughout Italy, and eventually even immigrated to the United States, where they can be found profoundly in Illinois, New York, and New Jersey. The source I used, from Italian criminologist Letizia Paoli, explains that there are four key concepts to the Mafia; the fact that it is primarily a secret (especially the members as well as the inner workings], the criminal association to it (organized crime), the individual attitudes and behaviors (collective conscience, manipulation, and monopoly of violence), and finally enterprise (the structure and economic factors). In regards to the Red Brigades, my source comes from Carole Beebe Tarantelli, who is a former member of Italian Parliament and a psychoanalyst. I mainly used this source as background information about the Red Brigades. She describes the Red Brigades as an “anti-capitalist class” using “revolutionary rhetoric”. Some Italian youth in the 1960’s and 1970’s joined the Red Brigades to assist the “armed struggle against the state” (pg 91). I mostly used the introductory portion of this source, because I didn’t feel it was necessary to further investigate the specific psychologies of the Red Brigades.
D. Transcription: because our initials are the same, I use first and middle initial (interviewer: MC and interviewee, MG).
MC: Ok so…do you consent to this public interview?
MG: Yes.
MC: Can you state your full name?
MG: Yes, Massimo Rampini.
MC: Okay, where were you born and in what year?
MG: I was born in Turin, Italy, in 1956.
MC: So tell me about living in Italy.
MG: Well, y’know, it was pretty much like here. Um, probably less complicated. Y’know, the time was different so there were less, um, no computers y’know. A few channels on the TV, one or two. And much more relaxed.
MC: So what was it like as an Italian child in the 1960’s and 1970’s.
MG: Oh it was just, uh, I don’t know. I see you guys, how you grew up in the states. It was much, much simpler. Um, I had a lot of friends. I was living in a big town, in a city so it was different from where we are now, in the country-
MC: Were you in an apartment?
MG: An apartment, yeah. And uh, so I had friends in the apartment, I had friends nearby and I used to go to school every day even Saturday from 8 to 12 or 1 o’clock, and after I had the rest of the day y’know to do homework or to just play.
MC: And you went to parochial school?
MG: Yes, yes…
MC: What is that?
MG: Parochial school is uh, a school that was run by the Salesian priests, which is an order of Catholic priests – and I went there from when I was in fourth grade until seventh or eighth grade.
MC: Did they, the Salesian priests, impact your religious life at all?
MG: Y’know, they were pretty complex, they were pretty mean, and I didn’t enjoy it at all. I was
there from seven o’clock in the morning to seven o’clock at night.
MC: From fourth grade to seventh grade?
MG: Yeah, so, I just didn’t like it.
MC: Was Catholicism, Roman Catholicism, really important to your parents?
MG: Yes, my mother was very religious.
MC: So it was more important to your mom than it was to your dad?
MG: Well yeah, I would say so.
MC: How would you describe the political climate of Italy during your adolescence?
MG: Well, it was very violent. Um, there were two Fascist – one was the Socialist, [or] communist kids and the other one was the right-fascist and more um, well-to-do, y’know richer kids. And there were a lot of uh, demonstrations and there was a lot of violence between the two…they were really…if they could catch somebody from the other part by himself um, y’know they were going to pretty much assault him or beat him up.
MC: So was it kind of how Democrats and Republicans are divided now, but more violent than it is here?
MG: Yes, yes pretty much.
MC: Did you and your family identify with a side?
MG: Uh we were more…the school where I was sent was a private school so there were richer kids. There were more [MC: Right wing?] right wing.
MC: So did your family associate themselves more right wing or were they less political?
MG: No, they were less political.
MC: Because your mom was more religious?
MG: Yes, and also because of the past. Her father was, during World War II, he was pretty much running different garage…he had a taxi cab business. So he was pretty much not treated very well by the Germans. My father, y’know, his side he was pretty much something up in grade with the fascist party.
MC: With Mussolini?
MG: Yes
MC: Did you ever feel the presence of the Italian mafia while you were living in Italy?
MG: Not personally, but listening to sthe news, reading the newspaper.
MC: Were they more associated with southern Italy?
MG: Yes, southern Italy.
MC: So were they as strong around Torino or…?
MG: No not really, they were pretty much everywhere. But y’know, we never had uh…
MC: Do you remember if there was a section of them living in Torino, or was it more…
MG: Yeah, yeah, just reading the newspaper, there was a time in the seventies where it was very violent, a lot of robberies, a lot of y’know…it was very violent. They were just entering in stores or houses, and I had several friends that were kidnapped and asked for ransom and even one, somebody called Nonno’s [my grandfather] brother telling that they wanted to kidnap me for ransom.
MC: Were your friends returned safely after the ransom was paid?
MG: Um, yes I don’t think nobody…some of them were killed-
MC: Some of your friends were killed?
MG: No I think they were away for months, but I think they were returned.
MC: Do you know where they went?
MG: One was a girl that, she was in Sardinia, she was on a beach in Sardinia, an inflatable boat came over with a machine gun…took her away. Others were just stopped by cars, and uh, they were y’know, taken.
MC: How would you describe your life at your University in Torino? Which University was it?
MG: It was uh, the Polytechnic University of Torino. It was okay, y’know, meanwhile while I was going there I was working for an architect in town. And uh, we were attacked by the Red Brigades while I was working for him.
MC: Can you elaborate on the Red Brigades?
MG: Yeah, the Red Brigades uh, are kind of – Bernie followers over here or Trump followers that they were completely disengaged with society, and they felt that they were taken advantage [of]. Red Brigades were communist, and they were just, killing, they killed political democratic Prime Minister-
MC: Of Italy?
MG: Yeah, of Italy [Aldo Moro]. And they-
MC: Was that while you were in Italy?
MG: Yeah and they were just uh, killing or hurting or shooting the eminent part of society. Y’know the architect I was working for…we were doing a lot of renovation for the town hall of Turin. And at the time we were renovating army barracks for uh, converting it into a place for trial for some of the Red Brigades that were captured. And his name was supposed to be secret, instead-
MC: Your architects name?
MG: Yeah, instead he came up – they put a sign where they were doing the renovation, and they put his name as the architect. And at the time we were doing a renovation on a convent and uh, it was a closed – y’know where the nuns weren’t able to get out y’know…
MC: They couldn’t leave – the closed convent?
MG: Yes – and so…there were two or three that were very mean with the workers, and we always had to call the Chief Mother to try to, y’know…they were parking the cars so the guys couldn’t get in who were doing work, and they were just mean. And so that morning, some student came over to try and talk to him and he [was at lunch] …lunch time in Italy, you generally go home to get lunch and he used to go get something bread or whatever for lunch and after he was going home. And that particular morning, he was he went out later than was supposed to be at the office and somebody called [the office]. I answered the phone, it was a very weird voice and I told him [the voice on the phone] “No he’s not [here right now]”…I thought it was one of the nuns. And they hung up the phone. That particular day, I was supposed to go back to work but I went to change the tire of my car and took much longer. And after I just decided not to go [back to work] because it was almost the end of the day. And it was that day that they [the Red Brigades] came in and they shoot him in the knee and the shoulder and sprayed all over [the office walls] “The Red Brigades” … I took mom over there and she saw the spray on the walls and everything.
MC: Did he live?
MG: Yeah he lived. And after they closed everybody in the toilet and they left.
MC: They locked them in the bathroom?
MG: Yeah they locked them in the bathroom.
MC: All the nuns in the bathroom?
MG: No, no, not the nuns, just the guys that were working –
MC: Was this at the town hall or the convent?
MG: No this was the office!
MC: Oh the architect’s office.
MG: Yes, the office.
MC: So were you ever personally threatened as his assistant?
MG: No.
MC: Because your name wasn’t on there [the sign]?
MG: Nope.
MC: Were either of your family members ever threatened by the Red Brigades?
MG: No, no.
MC: Um, so when did you move to the United States and why did you move?
MG: Because y’know, I always felt much better every time I was leaving the border of Italy. I traveled extensively all over Europe. I really like Spain, I had several friends in Spain. I thought I was going to move to South America. In Italy, if you want to work in Italy you have to be tied to the political system.
MC: Have a government job?
MG: No, but they give you work because you are part of the right or part of the left. You don’t get work because you are good at what you’re doing, you see. And I hated it. I didn’t want to…have anything to do with the political system or bribery, it was very common at the time. Y’know, a society where I didn’t feel comfortable to be with. I came over here in the States on vacation, I loved it, I liked it, so I decided to move here.
MC: Did you move after your mandatory commitment to the army?
MG: Yes.
MC: How long after did you move…was that before you were at University or after you were at University?
MG: After. Because theoretically you need to go when you’re eighteen or nineteen you have to go serve for one year. Then, now they don’t force you anymore. Now in Europe it’s like here, if you want to go to the army you go and if you don’t…so I wasted one year of my life shooting and doing stupid things and after I came over here. And I work for several architects in town [Charlottesville] and learned how to build with wood.
MC: So did you receive your equivalent of a doctorate at the University in Italy? So here would it be considered a PhD?
MG: Yes, so I never converted my degree into an American degree. I was approved to become registered in this country as an architect, and I took the test as well. But at the time I was already working on my own, so the question they were [asking] … they were just for someone who only wears the shoes of the architect. So I was wearing multiple shoes – I was an architect, and I was my own client, because I was building my own houses and everything. So I just didn’t answer it properly. But by law, I am allowed to have a design-build company, if I put my names on the drawings and everything. But I cannot build a skyscraper. But I never wanted to build a skyscraper here.
MC: Are you also considered engineer?
MG: No.
MC: Just an architect?
MG: An architect, yeah.
MC: So what was the process of becoming an American citizen like?
MG: So it was very complicated. You need to have interviews, you need to prove that you can maintain yourself, that you are not going to go into the welfare and get money out. You need to show that you have money, show that you are going to be a productive element of society.
MC: Was it difficult?
MG: It was long.
MC: How long did it take? The process.
MG: I got the green card, and after five years of green card you can become a citizen.
MC: So you were technically an alien, a resident alien?
MG: A resident alien, yeah.
MC: So what happened at your naturalization, where was it?
MG: At Monticello. You had to pass a test so you know everything about the Constitution and everything…I didn’t pass it the first time.
MC: Did they let you take it again pretty soon after?
MG: Yeah because mama, she went to the library and got a bunch of books that were thick complicated and everything. And the guy, after he told me that I didn’t pass it the first time, he gave me a book called “Daughters of the American Revolution”. Which is a…very thin and everything so I read the thing and went back to DC and I passed it.
MC: So it was pretty soon after…there wasn’t a waiting period?
MG: I don’t remember anymore, I know you had to pass the test and then I went to Monticello. Actually I was on TV because NBC…
MC: Because they don’t do it at Monticello very often.
MG: No, they do it every Fourth of July.
MC: Oh so you got naturalized on Fourth of July.
MG: Yeah.
MC: Did you have to be picked for that?
MG: You apply. I don’t know if there’s a number but I went on the Fourth of July. The president of Coca-Cola was Cuban or some South American, and he made the keynote speaker for it. And Tom Brokaw, you remember Tom Brokaw, he had something on NBC [Nightly News]. They were talking about naturalization and everything happening on the Fourth of July and it was Fourth of July at Monticello, and they showed me walking up when they called my name, walking up the steps. Because you were sitting on chairs, and then they were calling you, each name was called and then you were going up the steps to Monticello where they were givng you the oath to become a citizen.
MC: Do you remember how old you were, when you got naturalized? How many years ago it was?
MG: Probably 95 or 96.
MC: So twenty years, about?
MG: Yep.
MC: So it was probably a lot easier then to become a citizen then than it is now?
MG: No…well with Trump, maybe. But it’s about the same.
MC: Do you think it’s easier for people from Europe to become citizens than it is for people from South America?
MG: Most definitely. Because there is a quota, you see. I was just reading something about Italy. I don’t remember, 60-70 percent. A large amount of a, youngster in Italy, they are all leaving Italy. A bunch of people in Europe now, from immigration from the wars in Syria and north Africa, and everything. With the European Union, the economy is very bad…so a lot of young people and everything, they’re leaving and trying to find better places. And there are quotas, so you cannot come to this country. Only a certain number of people from each country can come to the United States each year. South Americans, a lot of them want to come over, so it takes much longer for Mexicans to come to the States than it would take a German.
MC: Why did you choose to go into architecture?
MG: Well, I just liked drawing and design. Trial and error and I liked it.
MC: Did you have any other career paths [that you were interested in]?
MG: I went to the School of Art, so that was the base to go to the School of Architecture. So I could have become an artist, or from there I could have become whatever.
MC: So in Italy is an architecture degree kind of like an art degree? Is it the same category?
MG: No, the classes are different over there. It’s kind of like Albemarle here, you go there to become a doctor. Western, a specialty for environment [he is referencing high schools in my hometown; there are special programs for people interested in STEM and environmental tracks].
MC: Have you ever been treated differently because you were born outside of the United States?
MG: No.
MC: So you haven’t experienced any, I guess, racism from people?
MG: Oh yeah. I just brush it off.
MC: Is it specifically because you’re from Italy, or because of your accent?
MG: Yeah, because you’re not a redneck. [laughs]
MC: Would you consider yourself an American?
MG: Yep.
MC: Have you ever regretted coming to the US?
MG: Nope. I love this country. I wish it was different. I wish Hillary were president.
MC: Do you ever regret coming…you said you didn’t but…have you regretted it since the new president, since Trump?
MG: No, I am joking. I think we will weather Trump, and it will just be part of the past pretty soon, hopefully.
I feel that the interview went really well, and even if we went off script, everything still flowed nicely.
Works Cited
Paoli, Letizia. Organised Crime in Italy: Mafia and Illegal Markets-Exception and Normality. 2004.
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.512.5445&rep=rep1&type=
pdf Accessed 10 Mar 2017.
Tarantelli, Carole Beebe. “The Italian Red Brigades and the structure and dynamics of terrorist
groups”. The International Journal of Psychoanalysis. 2009. Accessed 10 Mar 2017. PDF
file.