R. Patel Interview, History 150 Spring 2017, Conducted by Lindsey Monito, March 19, 2017.
- The interview was conducted face to face in R. Patel’s dorm room. The space was quiet, but we were accidentally interrupted once by someone who knocked on the door. A Snowball USB microphone was used for recording in the Audacity program, and the microphone was connected to a laptop.
- R. Patel is the daughter of two traditional Indian parents who were both born and raised in India. R. Patel is 17 years old and has an older brother who is 23 years old. R. and her brother were also born in India, and she attended a British school while her brother attended boarding school. She and her family lived in India for a few years, but they moved to the United States when R. Patel was in 4th grade. They first lived in Connecticut, but now they live in the suburbs of Richmond, Virginia. Despite living in the U.S., R. Patel’s parents still maintain their traditional Indian culture, creating an interesting life for their children, who are growing up as U.S. citizens. Her first language is Gujarati, but she only speaks in this language with her family. She now speaks almost exclusively English as she further embraces U.S. culture, unlike her parents. R. Patel came to college to become a doctor to satisfy her parent’s wishes, but she is now a history major at James Madison University. In this interview, she discusses her experiences with balancing the Indian culture of her family and the U.S. culture that surrounds her. Specifically, she mentions the strict gender roles of Indian culture that have caused her to pull away from it.
- Indian culture is very gendered and has been all throughout history. Traditionally, women are seen as the caretakers and have little say in their own life regarding marriage, education, property, or economic freedom. During the British colonization of India in the late 1800’s to the mid-1900’s, Britain claimed that creating rights for Indian women was a central focus as they “saw Indian women as oppressed in their own society” (Chaudhuri). Yet despite their programs to educate and create legislation to eliminate gender discrimination, these efforts were ineffective: “Indian men opposed to changes in women’s status were successful in drawing British officials to their side; as a result, reforms enacted by the British had little impact” (Chaudhuri). This lack of change is notable when viewing the traditional Indian household. The household in Indian culture is more than just a building, “it has ritual, symbolic, and emotional significance, establishing richer bonds between the house and the householders” (Madan). The home becomes crucial to the family for more than mere shelter, yet the mothers and daughters are usually excluded from ownership. It has been this way for a long time, and “the domestic scene two thousand years ago was essentially the same as it is today in most Hindu homes” (Madan). These gendered traditions that have lasted thousands of years are something that R. Patel deals with in her family, despite growing up primarily as an American.
- Madan, T. N. “The Householder Tradition in Hindu Society.” The Blackwell Companion to Hinduism. Flood, Gavin (ed). Blackwell Publishing, 2005. Blackwell Reference Online. 23 March 2017 <http://www.blackwellreference.com/subscriber/tocnode.html?id=g9780631215356_chunk_g978063121535616>
- Chaudhuri, Nupur. “Clash of Cultures: Gender and Colonialism in South and Southeast Asia.” A Companion to Gender History. Meade, Teresa A. and Merry E. Wiesner-Hanks (eds). Blackwell Publishing, 2004. Blackwell Reference Online. 23 March 2017 <http://www.blackwellreference.com/subscriber/tocnode.html?id=g9780631223931_chunk_g978063122393126>
- Interviewee: R. Patel (RP); Interviewer: Lindsey Monito (LM)
Transcript:
[Edited out 1st minute, introductions]
LM: Where did your parents grow up?
RP: My parents- my dad grew up in Ashi, and my mom grew up in- it starts with a “K”, I can’t really remember. But they were like basically a mile away from each other. And my mom’s town didn’t have a school, so her and her siblings walked every morning a couple miles to go to my dad’s town to go to school. And my mom was like, “Ya, he used to cheat off of me in school” [laughs] because my mom was always really smart and was always number one. And my dad would always get jealous and make fun of her and cheat off of her.
LM: So they met when they were really young?
RP: Ya, they’ve known each other since they were- they started school.
LM: How old were they when they got married?
RP: Umm..[trailed off]..I don’t know.
LM: You don’t know?
RP: No…they actually didn’t talk to each other at all or anything, but my dad’s brother worked in the same hospital as my mom, and then they were like, “Oh! Connections, you already know them”, and then [their families] arranged the marriage.
LM: Okay, was either one of them happy about that?
RP: [smiles] They really didn’t like each other. [laughs] And that hasn’t changed after marriage, I mean it sort of changed after marriage because obviously they had me and my brother. But my mom- she doesn’t really- she always talks about how she regrets not saying no.
LM: Where all have you lived in your life?
RP: So in India, we lived in the doctor’s quarters. My mom worked at this hospital, and she also taught at their nursing school, so they gave us housing in the doctor’s quarters. So that’s where we lived like during the school year. And then during the summer, we’d go live in my dad’s family house. And 6 months to 5 years old I lived with my aunt because both of my parents were working and my brother was in boarding school.
LM: So you lived with your aunt in India?
RP: Ya, and then when I was in 4th grade- I finished 4th grade there, and then we moved here. Then we stayed with my dad’s brother in Ohio. And then after that we lived in Connecticut, and then we moved to Virginia.
LM: Cool. What factors influenced your parents to move to the United States?
RP: So basically, my entire family all had files to come to America. So, the only ones that are left in India are two of my aunts and that’s it, well on my mom’s side, we don’t really talk to my dad’s side. But, on my mom’s side, there is only two aunts left, and one of them is coming over here, and the other one- her husband was in America, but they moved back to India. So they’re fine in India, they don’t want to come. So all my family is here, or in different countries- I mean we go there to visit together, but [laughs] we just wanted to get out of there.
LM: So what made them choose the United States specifically?
RP: Uhm, well, it actually depends because we had other options, too. We could have gone to London or Australia, but my dad’s brother was the closest family that put out a file for us, so it was easiest to- it would be the fastest.
LM: Oh, okay. How do your parents feel about you and your sibling being raised in U.S. culture?
RP: [smiles] They just ignore that we live here. Like, basically they ignore that we live in America. We still have to follow the Indian rules. I still have to- if we have a guest over I can’t wear shorts, I have to go put on leggings or jeans. And then I have to go to Temple, and we do all the Indian holidays, and the fasts and stuff. And my parents- they want to live in America, but they want to be Indian. [smiles and laughs] There’s no compromise, our house is India, but it’s in America.
LM: How do you feel about being raised in U.S. culture?
RP: I- my friends were like “Oh my god, you’re completely white.” I’m like completely assimilated to American culture. That’s like- I want to be American. I don’t like going back to India because they are just everything that I don’t like in people. I’ve gotten so used to America that when I go to India I just get annoyed with everyone like-
LM: What sort of things bother you?
RP: Like, they’re very sexist. Even my parents, my brother never has to do the dishes or laundry or clean his own room, but I have to do everything. Otherwise I’m a bad daughter. And my brother can stay out as long as he wants and have sleep overs, but I can’t. I have to be home right after school…and it takes me forever to convince them to let me do stuff, but my brother just leaves. And in India, it’s the exact same, too. My brother doesn’t even talk to [our extended family] or- doesn’t even communicate with them when we’re not in India, but everyone’s always excited to see him, even though I’m the one who talks to them, remembers their birthdays, and sends them gifts and messages them “Happy Birthday”, but they’re more excited to see my brother than me.
LM: How does your family balance U.S. culture and Indian culture? How do they respond to U.S. culture as it enters your life?
RP: Well, me and my brother just like hide our American parts from our parents. My parents didn’t give us any talk- like any of the talks, the birds and bees or anything. So we basically have to pretend like we don’t know what anything is. We have to pretend we don’t know what alcohol is, that we don’t know what marijuana is, that we don’t know what sex is. We just pretend we’re full-blood Indian.
LM: Have they ever met any of your friends, your American friends?
RP: Ya, they’re super nice to my friends and stuff, and they’re like “Oh it’s nice you’re making friends.” But also, they’re like “Why aren’t you making Indian friends?” So that’s where going to Temple came in because there’d be all the Indian girls and stuff. But I did not want to become friends with them. [laughs]
LM: Was it just kind of natural or were there specific things that you didn’t want to be friends with them?
RP: They’re just so very- they were very stuck up to me. And that’s another reason, because like Indians are very about status and stuff, so they always thought that they were better than me. So it was annoying to have to go there every weekend and have to deal with that- it was just- I mean there was a couple girls that were pretty cool so I just hung out with them. But it was also because the girl’s group had to serve the older people and do all this stuff for the Temple but the boys group just hung out in their room and had fun. That was also another thing why I hated going because we’d also have to wear the Indian clothes, and we’d have to go serve everyone. We’d have to help cook, had to help clean, and all the boys just got to have fun in their room.
LM: What was Temple like? How far was it? How often did you go?
RP: Temple, well for us- you’re supposed to go every day- but we went- usually in America people only go on Saturday and Sunday, and it’s an all day thing. And you go there in the morning and you had breakfast, lunch, dinner there, and you don’t come home. Because there’s different prayers during the day and you basically served God all weekend.
LM: Wow.
RP: Ya. But, if girls had their periods they weren’t allowed to go.
LM: Seriously?
RP: Ya, because they were [made quotes, rolled eyes] “unclean”. We even have a tiny Temple in my house, it’s in the sunroom, I wasn’t even allowed to go in the sunroom.
LM: How did they know? Would you just have to be honest?
RP: Ya.
LM: Oh my gosh.
RP: And internally, I was also like “Oh my god, I can’t go in front of God.” Because ever since I was little I was told that you can’t go in front of God if you’re unclean. So then internally, I’m just like “If there is a God, I’ll go to hell if I go in”, and ya know I’ll go [to hell] if I go in front of them [laughs] so internally I’m just like “You know what? This week I’m just going to stay out of the sunroom. And the Temple.” And it wasn’t that big of a deal, but I just thought it was a double standard. It’s not an unclean thing, it’s a very natural thing. And if God’s supposed to- or God’s supposed to love everything, they’re the ones who gave it to us so like why does it- it’s basically a man-made concept.
[Edit out about 1 minute from hallmate interruption]
LM: So at what point in your life did you kind of notice these things in the culture and feel yourself starting to pull away and go towards U.S. culture?
RP: Probably around 5 years old because there’s this fasting thing that girls do every year. And it’s for like 5 days. And basically for a week they separate the boys and girls in school and they’re not allowed to have lunch with them, we’re not allowed to have class with them, or anything. We’d give up all the good food, and we’re not allowed to eat salt or sugar and you just have to eat a really plain diet and stuff. And it’s only the girls that have to do this. And then you had to get up every morning and pray to this plant, and there was a special prayer for that. And the moms start it as soon as the girls go to school. So you’re basically telling girls that they have to fast for everyone else, but everyone else doesn’t have to do it, it’s only the girls that have to do it. And my mom made me do it until I was 11 or so. So you can tell the differences- you can tell that the girls are put under the boys. And in school if a girl became number one, they’d be like “Why?”. In my class, only the boys became number one because most of the girls were like “I can’t take the number one spot that would just look bad.”
LM: You mean like academically number one?
RP: Ya-
LM: Okay.
RP: And the daughters, they’re like- my mom, her- she wanted to go to college and become a doctor. But her dad made her give that up, and they made her do a business degree for a year because they needed to pay the science tuition for her older brothers. But then she worked and made her own money and went to nursing school, and did that. But her education- she had to take time off college a couple of times because they had to pay for the tuition for the brothers, or they needed money for their farm. Her education was always put below everyone and everything else. So if they needed a new cow for the farm, they’d be like “Oh, you’re probably not going to go to school this semester because we need a new cow for the farm.” So that was even put above her education.
LM: Wow. So what did they think of it when she started to work for her own education? Did they try to hinder that at all?
RP: Well, they didn’t really pay attention to her, that’s the thing. They don’t pay attention to the girls. As long as they’re not doing anything to bring the family name down, they don’t really pay attention to the girls.
[Edited out about 2 minutes, went off topic]
LM: What sort of standards or expectations do your parents have of you?
RP: I guess, study, get a good job, and then get a good husband. And then have kids. And then just work at my job and everything’s fine. [sarcastically]
LM: Oh dear.
RP: Ya, so it’s basically…[trailed off]..follow in your parents’ footsteps.
LM: And how do you feel about that?
RP: I don’t really like it because my dad expects me to have an arranged marriage and for me to marry someone that he chooses. But my mom’s like “Ya, your dad’s not going to choose who you marry, because I was miserable my entire life, I’m not going to put that on you.” But then my mom gave me the option like “Okay, you can marry whoever you want, as long as he’s not Muslim or African American.” Oh! You’re giving me the option, but you’re also giving me rules. But she’s like “But I would totally prefer an Indian.” And I’ve seen what’s happened to my cousins who have married outside the Indian pool, and I’m scared that that’s going to happen to me.
LM: You mean treatment from your family?
[Edit out about 1 minute, off topic]
RP: Ya, if one of them marries a non-Indian, they’ll just put all their attention on the [Indian babies]. And so they’re just left- I mean they’re still invited to family events and stuff, but they’re pushed into the corner. But if the people that married non-Indians come with their kids, [for] their kids [it’s] like “Okay, here’s a toy go play in the corner.” And all the attention is given to the full Indian grandchildren because that’s what they’re- that’s what it’s supposed to be like.
[Edit out about 1 minute, words got twisted, but said that there’s family drama when R. tries to play with the half-Indian children]
LM: Would you say your mom kind of has the most U.S. kind of values or ideas? Strays the most from Indian culture in your family?
RP: Yes, my mom is definitely that one. Because my mom got married last, and we’re the youngest of our cousins. So when we moved here, we were really young, and my cousins were already grown up and had jobs, so they were already being raised under the strict rules of Indian culture. So they knew- but me and my brother were in elementary school and middle school when we came here. So we- my mom had to learn to accommodate the U.S. culture because we were so young and we didn’t have the same deep Indian culture immersement that my cousins did. We were more American kids than Indian kids. So my mom she accepted some things, but some things she is very strict on. She’s like “Do not drink alcohol. Do not do any of that, at all. Even if you’re 21.” My brother is 23- but even now she’s like “No. You’re not going to drink alcohol.”
LM: Even for your brother?
RP: Yes, so some things she’s very strict on, but some things she’s like “Okay that’s fine.” If I wear shorts, my dad’s like [makes a disgusted face] “What are you doing?” But my mom’s like “I bought her those! Those are really cute.” So my mom’s very much the most- and out of my aunts and uncles she’s very much the most American. Because she had young kids she had to deal with- basically my brother and I both did soccer and sports and stuff. So she had to go interact with the parents and [smiles] they were not Indian. But my aunts and uncles didn’t have to deal with that because their kids were full adults. She had- she learned how to have Americanized kids through our activities and stuff so she became more Americanized herself.
LM: Okay, how did she feel about you coming to college?
RP: [smiles] She wanted me to go to VCU.
[Edited out 1 minute, off topic]
RP: I switched my major, but if I was at VCU, there’s no way I would even think about it-
LM: Because they’d be so in your life that you couldn’t hide anything?
RP: Ya, because the Honor’s Program at VCU guarantees admission to their medical school, so there’s no way I could have convinced them that I didn’t want to be a doctor because I already had basically admission into a school. So it’s like- there’s no way I would’ve gotten out of being a doctor like I have. [laughs] That sounds really bad, being a doctor is great, but it’s just not what I wanted to do.
LM: And they still don’t know that?
RP: No. [smiles]
LM: Right.
RP: [laughing] It’s okay, they’ll find out soon.
[Edit out 2 minutes, off topic]
LM: So, do you think your family will stay in the U.S. for very long? Do you think they intend to stay?
RP: Ya, they’re probably going to stay here until…death. There’s an Indian senior living community that opened in Florida this past summer, and every time we see a commercial for it, my mom just jokes that’s where she’s going in a couple years. And I don’t think it’s a joke, so I think ya, we’re here for good.
LM: Do you want to stay here forever?
RP: Not- not…It depends. Because I want to do Asian studies, and if I get a job in Korea- because that’s where I want to focus on- if I do get a professor or teaching job in Korea, then I’ll probably move. But if I don’t then I’ll probably just stay here.
LM: So Korea- South Korea would be-
RP: [laughs] South Korea! Not North!
LM: So whether you stay in the U.S. or move to South Korea, do you intend to maintain or kind of fall away from Indian traditions?
RP: The thing is I’m not very Indian. I don’t remember the major holidays. I don’t know what- I go to Temple but I don’t know what each of the god means I don’t know what the books mean. I can’t read Hindi anymore, and I can’t read Gujarati anymore, which is basically most of Temple. So I’ve been very away from it. Obviously the stuff that I do know (…), I’m still going to want to do, like Holi. I love Holi, I’m still going to want to do that.
LM: What’s that?
RP: It’s a festival- it’s coming up in March, it’s really fun. You basically just throw color at each other-
LM: Oh, I have seen that!
RP: for a couple of days. And then on the last day you have a big fire and you welcome spring. I do want to do stuff that I feel comfortable doing, and what I know is part of Indian culture. I’ll probably still do that. But I’m not going to go the extra mile and make sure everything is done, or make sure I do every single holiday, or make sure I know what every single part of Indian culture needs. I’ll do what I’m familiar with.
LM: So what kind of relationship do you think you’ll have with your parents as you get older?
RP: I think, it’ll probably be more distant than it is now. Me and my mom are best friends. But it took a long time for us to get to that. Me and my mom fought almost every day, every week, until 9th grade, and then we started becoming really close, and now we’re best friends. But, I know as soon as I tell her “Oh, by the way, I’m not going to be a doctor,” she’s right away going to be distant again. And then when I tell her “I don’t really want you to arrange my marriage”, that’s going to push her even farther away. And as far as I know, I don’t really plan on marrying someone Indian so that’s going to push her even farther away. But Indian people do cherish their grandkids [laughing] so!
LM: So as soon as the kids come in she’ll be right back? [laughing]
RP: [laughing] So as soon as the kids come in, I think she’ll become a little bit closer because family is very important in Indian culture and my mom is definitely going to want to know her grandchild so that’s going to pull her back a little bit. But it’s still not a full Indian grandchild, and if my brother does marry an Indian girl, she’s definitely going to give him and his kids more attention. But I doubt my brother’s going to marry an Indian [laughing]. But what he- what my brother calls it- he likes doing all the stuff my mom tells him is wrong. He tells me that he’s doing it for me so they’ll be less surprised when I do it.
[Edit out 1 minute, off topic]
RP: [laughing] And I’m like “That’s an awful plan because they’ll still cherish you because you’re their only son. And I was basically the backup child in case you weren’t a boy.” [laughs] They’re going to be more upset at me than at him, and he doesn’t understand that but he’s like “I’m just doing it for you.”
LM: So does he recognize the different treatment between the two of you based on gender?
RP: He does it when he wants to, basically. So when me and my mom- me and my mom usually fought about- she’d always yell at me for not waking up early and doing the dishes and learning how to cook and doing the laundry and cleaning the house. But then I’d always bring up “Oh, you never make [my brother] do anything.” And that would be always what I fought about, but then I learned to just not talk about that because it was just going to cause more fights. So he brings it up when he needs to or it works in his favor. He likes the treatment because he’s like the king in my mom’s eyes. And that’s why I don’t want to marry an Indian male. [laughs] Because they’re so treasured in their family that they don’t understand all the struggles that their sisters or moms have to go through with their brothers.
LM: Ya.
RP: And they expect everything to be ready for them. They expect dinner to be warm when they come home from work. That’s just not how the world’s going to be when I’m an adult, and I don’t want to have to deal with that. [laughs] I’m just scared his family will live with us. Because in Indian culture, the boy doesn’t move out. The girl just goes and lives with her husband’s family. None of my cousins have done that here, but as soon as they have kids, their parents move in with them and never leave. [laughs] And I’m just scared that that’s going to happen. So that’s also why I don’t want to marry an Indian.
LM: So you plan on having a more American lifestyle?
RP: Ya, definitely. [smiles] Definitely. It’s just very awkward because you can’t even- when my cousins come over, you can’t even tell that they’re married. They act like strangers. They’re not allowed to touch each other in front of the elders, they’re not allowed to kiss in public, and they’re not allowed to show affection or anything. It’s just like they’re two strangers that live together.
LM: Oh my gosh.
RP: I don’t want that. I want him to come home and be like “Hey babe, what’s up?” [smiling] Not like [imitates blank stare]….like just-
LM: [laughing] Just silence.
RP: [laughing] Ya! Like [blank expression, monotone] “Hey. How was your day?” [laughs] This probably makes Indians sound really bad. [laughs] But it’s just my experience, I’m sure other families have different experiences.
LM: Ya, okay, alright, well, thanks for interviewing with me today.
RP: [laughing] Indians aren’t this bad it’s just my family. Just know that. [laughing]
[End]
Overall, I believe the interview went extremely well, aside from issues at times with sound. As the interview became more like a conversation, we each moved around and relaxed, but we forgot to remain close to the microphone so it is quieter in some parts of the recording. R. Patel was very open about her experiences and was willing to share about herself and her family. I added a lot more questions than I had originally prepared, and it actually made the interview flow better. However, it did make the interview a lot longer, and I had to edit out a lot in places where we got off topic. I edited out about 10-12 minutes of the interview, but the parts I kept and transcribed were by far the most important of her and her family’s experiences. Even though I had to edit out the off-topic parts, I would not have changed the way the conversation went because the divergences actually led us to interesting stories and insights into R. Patel’s life that are included in this transcription. Lastly, I omitted a lot of phrases such as “uhm”, “like”, and “basically” from the transcript for the sake of brevity, but the overall meaning of the interview does not change. One thing I would do if I could do this again would be ask more questions about her mother’s experiences as a nurse in the U.S. and how she handled being in the workforce as an immigrant mother of two.