Ashley Machado 0:00
Hi, my name is Ashley Machado and I’ll be interviewing Dr. Herron. Please introduce yourself.

Betty Herron 0:07
My name is Betsy Herron and I am an assistant professor in the School of Nursing. And I teach in undergraduate and graduate programs.

Ashley Machado 0:17
I’d first like to ask you about your scholarship and what you study in your scholarship.

Betty Herron 0:23
Okay, I have several different projects that are going on right now. One of my past studies was related to men in nursing. So I had a lot of interest in figuring out why there were challenges for men in completing their nursing programs, and challenges that they encountered when they were in practice. So that’s one of the topics.

Ashley Machado 0:53
Yeah, we will be focusing on that.

Betty Herron 0:55
Okay, so we’ll just talk about (both of us giggles)

Ashley Machado 0:57
Okay, so my first question is, what do you exactly- when you were studying that? What exactly were you studying? And how were you studying it?

Betty Herron 1:07
Okay, so at the time, I was teaching, in an undergraduate program at another university, and I had a lot of comments from male nursing students, that they felt like they weren’t treated the same as the female nursing students. And some of the male nursing students had encounters in clinical, that they believed were not equitable. So, I decided to do a study on it. So, a colleague of mine and I did a long research study about men in nursing. And there really is not a lot of specific research about men in nursing and how they feel about nursing and how they’re treated. So we started a study, it was qualitative. So, I did interviews with some of the current students I had at that- at that particular school. And then I did interviews with a few students who had graduated who were male. I believe we got about 10 interviews all together and after we did the study, we published it. So we have a publication that is all about the men in nursing, and I would really like to go ahead and do more studies. When I came to Harrisonburg and started teaching at JMU, I had conversations with male nursing students, similar to the conversations I’ve had with others. (I) haven’t continued that research I’ve been going into a lot of different directions. But it’s still something on my mind.

Ashley Machado 2:40
Um, without breaking what they said in the interviews, can you summarize basically, what’s the similar patterns that were in the interviews that you did?

Betty Herron 2:52
Sure, I can give you information because we published it. So I wouldn’t be breaking any confidences. One of the major things, or themes that came out of the study was that they were treated differently in clinical. And a couple of the issues that came up were patients often refused their care because they were male, particularly in OB [Obstetrics] situations. Even though the doctors were male, they didn’t want a male nursing student in there with them. There were times when they were called over to a room just because they were male to help pull up a patient. There were times when they felt like they didn’t get the same attention from their nursing instructors, because the nursing instructors didn’t believe that they would understand what they were talking about. I had a couple of students who indicated they were called out in class, because they were male. So a lot of it was they were treated differently because they were male. They felt like they didn’t get the same opportunities in clinical because they were male. And often, and this is, this is one of the issues that comes up a lot. Peers automatically assume that they were gay, because they were going into nursing. This may be true for some men in nursing, but it is not fair to assume something about a person because of their profession.

Ashley Machado 4:28
I’m actually really sad. I’m actually really happy when I see a dude in nursing because they don’t have a lot. I saw this one dude in my class. His name was Kyle and I was like your nursing major. Oh, I’m so proud of you. He’s like, Oh, thank you. Yeah, so maybe-

Betty Herron 4:43
Right now in our second semester cohort there are 12 men.

Ashley Machado 4:49
That’s great. That is great. I don’t see much. I think it’s like three at lunch. And that’s amazing. Yeah, still. Could you say that they were first seen as male before they were seen as a nurse?

Betty Herron 5:07
Yes. Definitely. That was one of the issues. I actually had a student here at JMU, who I was in clinical with and the student was a male nursing student. And we went into a patient’s room and the patient was a little confused when we first went into the room. And the student worked really well with her, he was doing an excellent job in my opinion. And a little while later, probably a half an hour later, the patient’s family member came into the room, and the patient was still confused. So when we went into the room together, the student and I, the male, the male family member said to me that he felt like the mother was upset, because there was a male nursing student, and thought that that was probably inappropriate. So I had to have a conversation with him about the patient was confused before the male nursing student came in there, we did not take the male nursing student out of the room, it was something that I felt like he was being judged for being male. And there was no reason for him to be judged. Unfortunately, in situations that I heard, during my research, there were male nursing students who the faculty member did not support them. And if a situation came up, they believe the family member, believe the patient or something like that, besides, instead of supporting students. So that’s, that’s one of the things that I have a very- I’m very strongly in support of having male nursing students in there, because a lot of times they, again, like you just said, they’re thought of as “Oh, this is a male person, I don’t want them in the room”. There are situations obviously, that are cultural (yeah) where a male nursing student isn’t appropriate because of the culture. And we actually have a simulation here in the School of Nursing, where they do a cultural scenario where there is a woman who does not want a male doctor or a male nurse or any male in the room. And it’s, it’s eye opening for some of the students.

Ashley Machado 7:23
Yeah, cuz I am aware of like, sometimes religion has to do with it and so that’s very understandable. Sometimes you can’t really argue that. But sometimes it’s like, I feel like what I’m hearing sometimes from what you’re saying is like, that they would see as them as male and automatically think that inappropriate things were going to happen (right) if it was male. And that’s really sad. Because it can go both ways, right? That’s what I think. Yeah, because I did. Before I did come here, I did a proposal. And I did do some research on like, what men men felt, um, there wasn’t much. There wasn’t much details, but there was some interviews just like yours that had 10 interviews they would talk about, there was one in particular, it was nursing practitioners and nursing (I forgot) educators. (Okay) And that was very interesting. They, what I did summarize it in one point of the nursing practitioners is that they tend to take higher positions, because of the in-person sometimes they’re rejected so much that they just can’t really come with the patient. And I want to know if that’s what you also saw when they were in clinicals. And when they did graduate, because I think you did tell me when we first interviewed you for the honor seminar, that they tend to take higher positions. And so is that because they were seen as male first and then the lack of access? Because they’re male?

Betty Herron 8:56
That’s a really good question. I don’t, I don’t believe that they take higher positions because they’re male. I think that, let me take it back. So I don’t think that they take higher positions because they can’t take a lower position because they’re male. I think a lot of times, men in our society are the sole breadwinners in families. And I believe that a lot of times they go for the higher paying jobs because they’re sole breadwinner in a family. It’s not often that you see a female nurse practitioner whose husband stays home with the kids. So I think that society, society wise, our norms are different. So a male nurse will go further than a female nurse might if they’re the sole breadwinner and need to get a position that provides them more income. I do see a lot of male nursing students who go into CRNA [Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetist- type of nurse field/job] programs because CRNAs make quite a bit more money. We don’t have a lot of nurse educators who are male, and it’s unfortunate because when we don’t have male nursing instructors, there is not a male role model for male students. And that is kind of- that’s what’s lacking is that there are not enough male role models for the male students who want to become nurses. And I think sometimes that is, is sort of what makes the society see it differently, because they don’t see a lot of male nurses, so they don’t understand. I sort of equated to other professions that seem to be primarily female, like flight attendants. There are a lot of female flight attendants, but there are male flight attendants also. And society sees it in a different lens.

Ashley Machado 10:52
That’s probably, I mean, I first saw it like that. So it’s like, changing while you see over time. I did want to ask, What time was this first? research that you did? What year?

Betty Herron 11:07
Let me think back? So I’ve been at JMU. This is my sixth year. So I came here in 2016. So I think this study was probably maybe around 2014? 2013-2014 I can’t quite remember.

Ashley Machado 11:27
So from that time, can you say that? With like different social changes happening outside nursing and within? Do you think that if you were to do those same interviews now, do you think you would get the exact same response? Or do you think some things would have changed?

Betty Herron 11:45
I think in today’s climate, it may have changed some with a lot of the emphasis everybody’s putting on diversity, equity and inclusion. It may have changed because people are more aware now than they have been before, particularly in nursing, particularly on campus in the university’s area, because we have a lot of emphasis on continuing education related to DEI [Diversity, equity, and inclusion – something here at JMU to be more diverse, inclusive, and equitable to the students on campus] initiatives. I don’t think it’s changed significantly. But I think there may, it’s going to be changing more, I believe it will be changing just because of the emphasis on DEI and inclusion. And as we get more people in nursing, who are more diverse, I think the attitudes will change a lot more.

Ashley Machado 12:44
Do you think we can get to a point where it’s like, we won’t have this problem in nursing, at least or will still have to continue little by little?

Betty Herron 12:55
I think it’s baby steps. It’s interesting, though, because we have a lot of military people who are medics in the military, and sometimes they’ll come back to be nurses. In the military, the majority of the medics are male. I mean, it’s different a whole different environment. But I think we’re still just taking baby steps. Even related to diversity, equity, and inclusion, we’re still taking baby steps. So I don’t think we’re gonna see overnight. I am hopeful, because I see that we have quite a few more male nursing students coming in now than we did when I first got here.

Ashley Machado 13:40
Have you talked to them (I’m referring to the male nursing students here at JMU) or to see if there are some differences from what the other interviews that you did have

Betty Herron 13:48
I haven’t talked to any of them [the current male nursing students at JMU]. I haven’t done any further research on it. When I first got here, like I said, I had talked to a few of the students who I had in class. And I did a presentation on the study that I did here. And the students who attended it came up to me after and talked to me and said, I really would like for you to do a study here to see because they had things to say. (good) Yeah, like I said before I’ve had so many other things going on with other studies that I haven’t gotten back to it. But I really would like to get back to it. Because I think it’s important.

Ashley Machado 14:24
It’d be a great study to see how the time change maybe even if it’s a little, maybe it’s like a little to a big significant change.

Betty Herron 14:33
Yes, I agree. And the data that’s coming out from the American Association of Colleges of Nursing and from the ANA and all of the nursing organizations, men in nursing is still about 10%. So if we can get it up to 10% to 15%. That would be great.

Ashley Machado 14:52
Yeah, because even if it’s 5% it’s still something (yeah), like a part of a population is so big.

Betty Herron 14:58
Definitely. Definitely.

Ashley Machado 15:08
Do you have anything else to say? Like anything to add on to make what I’ve asked? Something that I haven’t asked, but you would like to say.

Betty Herron 15:15
I think it’s just an excellent topic. I think that in nursing, because it’s seen as a primarily female profession, the more men we have in it, the more I don’t know what word to use, the more aware all of us will be. Because men bring a different perspective. Men and women definitely, just in general, have a different perspective on so many things. But the male nurses that I have known and that I have worked with, in practice have been very strong nurses, and have a different perspective. So it helps us to not be in ourselves as much. I think when you have a whole bunch of women together in a room, a male perspective adds a lot.

Ashley Machado 16:06
Yeah, cuz I did. I did tell you, I did some research on male in of nursing. Hold on, let me see if I can look what I did say, what I did look up. It was like, sometimes that the males, the males were told after like they were, they took care of a patient that oh, they weren’t like being emotional enough. And I don’t know if that’s a problem you also saw during clinicals. Or another problem besides that, oh, they just saw them as male.

Betty Herron 16:40
I think in the research, it was more that there was a preconceived notion about the men who were nursing. And that because they were men, they might not be as compassionate. But in reality, that’s not the truth.

Ashley Machado 16:58
Yeah. I did see an article where it was like, there was a high percentage of males in nursing, but in another country, it was Spain, actually.

Betty Herron 17:08
Oh, yeah.

Ashley Machado 17:08
Yeah

Betty Herron 17:09
I have done a couple of reviews of articles for other journals, because of my work with men in nursing related to other studies in other countries, and there are some countries where there are a lot more males in nursing than females.

Ashley Machado 17:24
Do you think? Um, how would you explain the differences between the US and other countries for the amount of males in the US for nursing and the other countries? Do you think it’s a? How do I say, like, what, what factors do you think contribute to that?

Betty Herron 17:43
I think one of the factors is culture. In some countries in particular in some of the articles that I’ve reviewed, there are countries where the women don’t actually go to school, they don’t actually have a profession. In other countries and other cultures where the women stay at home and take care of the family. The family may spend all their money to send a son to school. And that would be more of your patriarchal country cultures. Spain, I’m not sure I would have to look into that and see. For more developed countries, I don’t know if it’s, again, it’s a job that somebody can have and there’s always going to be a job, there’s always going to be a need for a nurse. So that’s an interesting one, I would be interested in looking at the one you saw from Spain that there were more nurses because in more developed countries, that’s kind of (I think, hold on) be interesting.

Ashley Machado 18:46
Yeah. So I did summarizing, this is an article about how men in the nursing field, particularly the Spanish Hospital, which face to face is Spain, have tried to overcome with their stereotypes that they do come with often. And it was about caring and showing emotion. (okay) so they would say that they were doubted by their own co-workers sometimes. And that was, I think, that’s a big thing in the nursing. In the nursing program, and after, especially with male nurses, as you were saying before, like, sometimes the, the teachers wouldn’t even support them at some point. And I feel like this report is very much needed for males, because I feel like they already kind of doubt themselves sometimes when they’re put in that situation, where like, they’re, like, coming in conflict with just being seen as men. And then she was like, oh, but you’re a nurse first.

Betty Herron 19:43
Right? Yeah, I agree.

Ashley Machado 19:45
So they did um, they did say that, um, how do I say this, that they came up with their own strategies to make themselves seem as equal to nurses- the women nurses, for example, it was one nurse practitioner talked about how a certain female was like saying things that men can’t do and like the women can do, like show of affection and showing care. And so they took it upon themselves to do the thing (right). And so sometimes like, Oh, I’ll show you what I can do is the same as you. So, yeah, that’s what I did see. I can send you the art. Cool. But yeah. And so I think it’s really cool to see what the differences in other countries are compared to here. And I think it would be, it would probably be a good study. Yeah, definitely. Other I think the one that you were talking about more patriarchal societies. I did see another article about Iran, and that was the general educator versus general practitioner, one. So yeah, I think it’s definitely on society and definitely on the society support. I feel like during these times, there’s more support, but they may not as feel it as impactful in the system itself. Yeah. Don’t have any more questions. I don’t think so. Okay, I think you did. Great. Thank you. So this will be the end. Thank you very much.

Betty Herron 21:24
You’re welcome.