Interview with Ann Zweckbronner, A Mother’s Perspective on Transgender Change and Family Transitions, Hist 150 Spring 2022, Conducted by Elijah Keyes, March 13th, 2022.

Overview to Social Change Interview:

Transgender. It’s not a disease, it’s not a problem, some might even say it’s not even different. It just is. If someone is transgender, then they are transgender. This interview below looks at the story of a mother whose youngest transitioned in elementary school. All they wanted has been to grow up in a school where people respect them, treat them equally, and make them feel safe.

We look to present day where a lawsuit has been thrown at the Hanover County School Board for not only restricting their youngest from going to the bathroom of their choosing, but also restricting rights for all transgender students in their schools. While they won the partial battle for their daughter, all the other transgender students still struggle and reach out for assistance.

This interview explores the transition of the youngest daughter and the journey of the mother, as well as the communal journey of the lawsuit: exploring the cause, effect, and aftermath. While this is a relatively new topic on the website, it seems to connect to “How a Journalist Covers Social Change in Higher Education” by expressing the thoughts of the community and how the community in both scenarios react to the social change and the different ways that support is handed out. The “Facemire Interview” also explores the interviewee’s childhood and where they saw social change, which correlates to this interview as I explore a question or two focused on how my interviewee saw social change specific to gender norms before she had her youngest daughter. This interview takes place after the lawsuit has gone through and they are in the waiting period for a response and a continuation of the charges.

Biography:

Ann was born on April 25^th, 1970 in Ohio and moved to Florida when she was 10. She remained in Florida until her marriage on August 2^nd, 1996 where she moved to New Jersey and then to Richmond. She is the mother of three, her youngest being transgender. She has worked as an accountant at ChildSavers in Virginia as well as an Accountant @ Wes Worsham Fire Protection. One of her most important jobs, however, has been as a stay-at-home mom taking care of her daughters. In recent years, she has been a strong activist against the Hanover school board and continues to support her daughter throughout their lawsuit. Ann goes by she/her pronouns.

Context for Interview:

Ann and her family have been living and working at Camp Hanover for close to a decade. During this time, their family has grown closer to the community and the surrounding Richmond area due to their Summer Camp programs. When she mentions “camp” people, she is referring to the large group of people who know her family and who support her family during the lawsuit. This lawsuit is in place because the Hanover County School Board did not adopt the Virginia General Assembly legislation to support and include transgender students in schools (2020). The ACLU [American Civil Liberties Union] has pushed forward the lawsuit and they are currently waiting for progress as of April 3rd, 2022.

The Hanover County School board has reached out to ADF [Alliance Defending Freedom], a radical, anti-LGBTQ group, in search for legal advice. About halfway through the interview, the interviewee speaks on experiments conducted that have shown how brain development and brain structure is already formed based on the gender a person identifies as being.  Therefore,  it is important to look at the scientific research that backs  our discussion and how it’s not just children saying they identify with the opposite gender, but their biology could potentially argue for transgender identity as well.

Audio Transcription:

Elijah 0:01
I’ll remind you that you don’t have to answer any questions you don’t want to. But this interview and I will go ahead and start with the first question. So how have you, um, seen social norms kind of related to transgender, um, change from kind of when you were a child, like around Grace’s age to now?

Ann 0:23
completely and utterly. When I was in high school, we didn’t even know the word ‘transgender.’ I think people who wore clothing that didn’t fit their gender were called cross dressers, or transvestites or any of those other words that are no longer in our lexicon. I didn’t really understand what the word transgender meant until Grace had started her transition. And had some guidance from some friends who had transitioned earlier in their lives. I was still confused. I knew that Brielle and Kyle were transgender, but I still didn’t really understand until it was in my face. And I needed to understand.

Elijah 1:07
Right (little laugh)

Ann 1:08
So it’s a complete education. It’s like the dark ages versus I mean, we didn’t even discuss versus everybody knows and accepts and understands now, almost everybody.

Elijah 1:22
yeah, I’ve definitely kind of had like a hard time. Just kind of like I understand what it all means now. But it definitely took me a while longer because I didn’t have anybody, like close to me, that I like knew, and was recognizing that they were going through that process. And then just last summer, I had somebody that I was close to and then there was Ada and well, that’s a different scenario. Yeah, it’s it’s different for people who haven’t been exposed to it until later in the process, or later, just like in our timeline of years.

Ann 1:56
That is why we have chosen to be so public is just to help people understand. When we first when Grace first transitioned. You know, we know a lot of people because we’re in the camping world, that’s just a bunch. It’s a tight knit group. And so that’s why we decided to do the public post and let everyone know. And it’s just worked out better for us. The comment that we’ve gotten more times than with very few negative comments have been said to our face, but the biggest feminist, I didn’t understand until Grace, because they’d seen Grace beforehand. And they’d seen Grace afterwards. And that was who she was supposed to be. And that understanding comes a lot easier when you know and love somebody who goes through it. Like you said.

Elijah 2:41
You kind of went into my second question, but so thinking about a craziest transition, was it kind of like a slow transition? [Interviewer smiles when I say this] Or did you kind of see it one day and it was like, Oh my gosh, this, like the person that the gender on their birth certificate is not something that I think she would identify with?

Ann 3:06
Grace always told us who she was, we did not hear it. We did not understand. From teeny tiny, she just was a girl and we didn’t understand we didn’t get it. We tried very hard to push her into a boy box, the traditional. I remember very distinctly telling her and this is one of my biggest shames as a mother, boys have penises. Girls have vaginas. So you’re a boy, and the ignorance of it. And the harm that we did in that is just it breaks my heart now. But it’s funny because Grace transitioned, a friend of mine has a child the same age as Grace, and they transition pretty close to each other Grace was a little bit ahead, but what it is, is, it’s like there’s a boulder that they’ve been pushing up. And then all of a sudden they get to the peak and it’s downhill and that transition goes so quickly. I’ve read a book called Raising my rainbow and saw CP as very similar to Grace’s situation. And that child is not transgender, they’re gender non conforming is the title that they’ve chosen for themselves. And so we went to find a support group for gender nonconforming children, and we found a local support group that also is gender nonconforming children and transgender children. And Harry and I went to our first meeting, and found the name of a gender therapist in Richmond. And I remember leaving there going, Oh, our kids not transgender, they are gender nonconforming and we went and saw Lisa who was the therapist that was suggested to us and she met with Grace.

Elijah 4:53
So to clarify, it was a the group that you went to was for parents of…

Ann 4:59
for parents of trans gender and gender nonconforming children’s, it’s a support group. And then Harry and I went and talked to Lisa first and then Grace went and saw Lisa. And the data Grace went and saw Lisa happens to be in my memories of Facebook was the International Day of Transgender Visibility. I think that’s not the right title [Yes it is] anyway, yeah. So, and I sat in the waiting room and it hit me that Grace was transgender. As I was waiting for her, I knew she was in there with Lisa and I called my friend Brielle, who had transitioned a few years before. And she said the kindest things to me, and I was freaking out. And she said to me, the shell changes, Ann. She’s still the same person. She’s always been inside of there. You’ll still have the same child, the same things are gonna make her laugh, the same things are gonna make her cry, she, her shell will be different. And that gave me so much peace.

Elijah 5:53
Wow

Ann 5:53
Brielle is a gift. She really has proven to be an amazing gift to us through the years. But it was like, hurry up and wait. Have you ever heard the story about the night Grace told us who she was?

Elijah 6:09
I’m not sure.

Ann 6:10
There’s… Jazz Jennings wrote a children’s book. And Lisa suggested we get that for Grace. So I bought it and we had it sitting in the drawer for a little bit. And finally, one night, I got it out. And I read it to her at bedtime. And because it was unusual, she was eight we didn’t usually sit down and read a bedtime anymore. But I brought this book in and I read it for and then she wanted to read it to her father. So he came back and she read it to Harry. And then she wanted to read it to her sister, her siblings. And so they came back and she read it to them and she fell asleep holding it. So about two days later, she came up to me with her t shirt pulled over her head. So she had long hair like she always did. She came up to me she goes mom, that word, that word that that that girl jazz is that’s what I am. I am transgender. Because we finally gave her the words, you finally had the vocabulary to tell us who she was. She’d been trying for years.

Elijah 7:04
Wow

Ann 7:05
But once she had the vocabulary and knew the words, it was a roll. I hit a rock going downhill. It was so fast.

Elijah 7:13
huh? That’s really interesting. It’s like, if we were to teach our kids younger about the kind of some of these terminology words people would know sooner.

Ann 7:27
Think that’s why kids are coming out earlier.

Elijah 7:30
Yeah

Ann 7:30
Yea, but you have a four year old who’s transitioning now because they’ve made it clear to their parents. They have the right lingo, and they’ve been able to say, I am a girl. I am a boy, and made it very clear. No, yeah, giving kids the language. I wish I’d had that lesson earlier in life. But giving kids the vocabulary they need is huge.

Elijah 7:50
Yeah. I like that. Um, after your daughter transition, Were there times when you were especially worried?

Ann 8:00
I cried… the first day she went to school, because that summer had been such a glorious experience. She’d been at camp, everybody had embraced her and loved her and just had no problems. And we had to send her to school. And I dropped her off and went home and bawled. And then she came home and was perfectly happy. Had a couple little bumps through those, that year, but she’s so much happier being herself. And she’s so much more comfortable in her skin, that the crap that she has to put up with is still worth it.

Elijah 8:40
Yea. Yea. What did you find to be kind of the easiest thing to to support in her transition? And maybe like the hardest?

Ann 8:59
The easiest thing has just been letting her be herself. Just accepting who she is, I guess and supporting that. The hardest thing for me has been when she started the hormones because I know that that may lead to a shorter lifespan. But I would rather have her be herself and be happier while we have her. Keeping that child off hormones would be starving her brain of what she needs that estrogen has made us such a difference in her world and our brain. I mean, it’s amazing, Elijah.

Elijah 9:36
Yeah, I was I was gonna ask, I can’t say I know a whole lot about that process. Would you be willing to explain it a little?

Ann 9:43
Yeah. She went on [puberty] blockers when she was 12…13, 13, because we had postponed because she wasn’t showing any signs of puberty. So she went on blockers at 13. She had the implant and that was a battle to get insurance to pay for all sorts of other things. And then she started the correct hormones this past year. And she’s still on, she will be on the blocker because testosterone is a very strong hormone. And she’s, she’s so much happier. And I truly believe that her brain is getting the right hormones. All the studies show that transgender, that feminine transgender people have female brains. They work the same way. And when they do MRIs, there’s a study, I’ll send you the link. But there’s a study where if you did an MRI of Grace’s brain, it would show as a female brain.

Elijah 9:43
That’s so cool. (Laughs)

Ann 10:40
Isn’t it? Amazing. So I truly think her brain was and I believe transgender people’s it before they transition if they don’t transition before puberty, it’s like putting poison in their brain. Because it’s just not the right hormones for them.

Elijah 10:55
That’s so neat. I’m like a big psychology person. I think that’s so cool.

Ann 11:00
I’ll send you the study, because there’s several of them out there. Now that show

Elijah 11:03
Huh

Ann 11:04
that our kiddos their brain matches, it’s their freakin body that we have.

Elijah 11:07
Yeah.

Ann 11:08
And that’s just gender. That’s, you know, society’s expectation of what fits your gender.

Elijah 11:14
Yeah. That’s really neat. I hadn’t even realized that. Okay, so kind of transitioning, I want to look a little bit about like your lawsuit. Can you kind of talk to me a bit about the journey with the school board, how it started kind of some setbacks, where it’s at now…?

Ann 11:36
Two and a half years ago, three years ago, we had Grace’s gender marker change on our birth certificate, because New Jersey had made that law. As soon as we could, we got the gender marker changed on her birth certificate, because Hanover County schools had been telling us, it’s what, we have to go by what’s on their birth certificate as to what bathroom they could use. So my dear husband, on his own request, this is something he wanted to do, because I wanted to go with them. But he was like, No, I’m gonna do this. Went to the county office, and took Grace’s new birth certificate, slapped it down on this guy’s desk and said, so which bathroom was Grace using now? And they agreed to let Grace use the girls bathroom, and the girls locker room. So seventh grade, Grace started using the girls locker room and the girls restroom. And it got discussed at school, which I understand. And there is a woman who lives in Hanover County, who has two daughters at the same middle school that Grace went to, who posted publicly on Facebook about my daughter. And it went semi viral. There were by the end of the night, I found it. Well, my friend found it at about 10 o’clock that night, and shot me a text and I found it. And by 2:30 or 3:30 in the morning, there were over 1000, well is more than that. And I can’t maybe… 1500 comments from people all over the world. And 90% of them are supporting Grace. There were some comments from local politicians not supporting Grace. There were some violent threats against my child by fathers of children in this county school district. And then the person who had written the post initially pulled it down. And the next day there were signs up in a very major intersection right by the high school and middle school, saying that there is a boy in the girls bathroom.

Elijah 13:47
Wow.

Ann 13:48
The principal at Grace’s middle school went out and pulled the signs up and walked up and down the street looking for more and pulled them all up and we loved Dr. Ballard. Dr. Ballard is the best. That was back to school night and… Harry and I decided not to go back to school night. We just didn’t see the need. So it started then because then the parents started getting there. The minority of parents got involved in there started being comments at the school board meetings and it became very heated. *text message alert* *pauses*

So if there was (finding her place/where she left off). Any way it got really nasty, I was in fearful for my child’s life. They had extra sheriff’s deputies at the school we had a drive by our house because Harry got phone calls at work. Camp got several phone calls from different people threatening… Anyway, It was a really bad time. So it kind of simmered down, Grace still uses the girls restroom and the girls locker room like she was supposed to… And then COVID came. So there was no more dressing out, which took care of 90% of the problem. So when our Governor and the Virginia Department of Education decided that there had to be an equity policy that allowed for the correct treatment of transgender students, Hanover County did not put that in place on time. And then after the deadline passed, [Hanover County] voted not to adopt the policy as written by the State.

Elijah 15:31
Right.

Ann 15:32
Now, since all this Gavin Grimms case has come and gone and been decided in favor of transgender students, it is federal law, that you have to let kids use the right restroom, that identifies, that they, that corresponds with their gender identity. It is state law. And my county is thumbing their noses. So… we got involved! Grace made the decision that she wanted to get involved. There have been other things that she’s been asked about and she said no, but this one she does. And the whole reason we’ve gotten involved is because Grace has friends who are transgender, who cannot use the right restroom, and do not have supportive parents to make the fight for them.

Elijah 16:18
Right

Ann 16:20
So Grace chose to go public. We signed on to a lawsuit *phone buzz* with the ACLU. And we are in waiting mode now. Nothing’s been decided. The county basically sat on everything as long as they could. And we think it was because of the new governor, they want to see how the election would go first. And then they wanted to see how the legislature [corrects herself] legislative session would go. And every bill… failed. That they had put forward. Scott Wyatt, who was our representative who personally was coming for Grace, has made it known that Grace is his target. [The]Bill failed in committee. And it was across the it was a all the Democrats voted that way. But also some of the Republicans voted to kill it, which was huge. So now, we now that the Hanover County School Board has decided to ask the ADF (Alliance Defending Freedom) to advise them. They’re working with a hate group now to talk about how they’re going to write their policy. The Equality Virginia has gotten involved, ACLU is ramping up again… and a couple other statewide groups, I don’t think we have any national groups yet are coming into the county, we have a meeting on the 16th at six if you want to zoom if you have any desire. And they’re given us some action items and rallying the troops. ADF is a hate group. The Southern Poverty Law Center calls them that and I trust them. They believe that conversion therapy works. They believe that. I mean, it’s ridiculous stuff: “Jewish people shouldn’t be allowed to adopt.” I mean, it is hardcore. Crazy.

Elijah 18:15
Yeah…

Ann 18:16
off the right wing of the right wing diving board in the deep. So that’s who my county is going to for advice right now. To keep… and the reason that we have standing in the lawsuit in the reason we are fighting this is yes, Grace can use the girls restroom. But if there’s a teacher there who doesn’t know that she has access, they could stop her. If there is an interaction with another student, I’m not 100% certain that the administration of her high school would back her up. I think that they would let Grace hang in the wind.

Elijah 18:56
Right.

Ann 18:57
We want a policy that is written, that covers all the kids in Hanover County, and we are willing and have been public to fight that.

Elijah 19:09
I really appreciate you talking about that. You’d maybe like kind of already pointed at this, but were there times during that where you were like, especially proud of your community or

Ann 19:20
Yes (confidently, as if there were many instances she quickly thought of)

Elijah 19:21
Yea?

Ann 19:21
Yeah. We have a Facebook group called Together Hanover, which is all the liberals in Hanover. And there are more of us than I thought. The other thing that’s really surprised me and been wonderful is: there’s a lot of people who view themselves as conservative, who are Republicans, registered Republicans, who support Grace and her friends. Out of the five families that are on the lawsuit, one of them is a very big mover and shaker in Hanover County. And they have friends that they never thought would support their daughter who are coming out of the woodwork now and supporting. So I’m proud of Hanover County for what… what I see. I’m proud of Hanover County and the community for the support that we have gotten. I am scared of how Hanover County because the people in power are still not educated enough. They don’t understand. And they’re fearful. I mean, they’re terrified of my child being in the girls restroom.

Elijah 20:25
Just how it how it is… (laughs a little)

Ann 20:28
Yeah.

Elijah 20:30
Yeah, yeah.

Ann 20:33
One of my friends who’s on the lawsuit with us had… says it in a great way, and it helps me. It helps keep me from just truly hating them is “what, what happened to them, that they’re so fearful what you know, what event in their life, what has caused them to be so angry and so fearful that the rest of the world” and anything unknown to them is bad, that they’ve been taught that and trying to remember that, you know, they haven’t had the love and support that I got to help me be loving and supportive to Grace.

Elijah 21:06
I think it’s interesting for you to say it that way… (trying to figure out what to say). Trying to, you’d say like, they haven’t been given the knowledge and they’re scared, and they just don’t know. I just went through COVID in JMU, and I was quarantined in my room. And one of my clubs, like, still wasn’t letting me come back to the club after like two weeks. And I’m like, guys, here’s CDC saying that I can be back. And then a few days later, I got a text from one of the, from the music director. And they were like, Yeah, I’m living with someone who’s immunocompromised. And like, Oh, it’s just fear. Fear is such a powerful emotion that can override any sort of logic. Yeah. And I think that was after I had a talk with my mom. Because I always call her to rant.

Ann 22:03
Your mom is so cool.

Elijah 22:04
She’s very cool. Yeah, fear and just people not knowing the logic and understand the logic and recognizing that fear is controlling them versus the truth is so insane. So I kind of see where you’re coming from. If you could change one thing about kind of how the lawsuit unfolded? Is there one thing that you could think?

Ann 22:33
I wish that… I would love… one of the problems with how this has happened is, I have felt very alone. I have a great group of friends. We have a text chain, there’s like 12 of us that are moms of trans kids in Hanover County. And then there’s the other, you know, four other families that are in the lawsuit and we’re tight. And I have that, but it’s very… it makes you feel very other when you’re fighting for your rights. We’re fighting to make them follow the law, there should be somebody else that’s bigger than us. It shouldn’t take me putting my kid in the public spotlight. I don’t know if you’ve seen the ACLU ads where they’ve used Grace and her words. And she’s okayed every one of them that she’s been in charge of that. But I shouldn’t have to have that choice. I shouldn’t have to *phone buzz*. My kid shouldn’t be having to do what she’s having to do for them to do what’s right. I would. I would like for the justice department or for something to watch out for my kid and not make me fight this hard. I’m thankful for ACLU. I know they’re doing what’s right. And I know they’re juggling. I mean, they they were doing the mask lawsuit this week. And they had all that plus ADF has come down on them and our lawyer only has so many hours in the day. So they’re working their hardest, but I felt alone and angry. But yeah, to have that support now is helpful and to have the public support is helpful, but we shouldn’t have to be doing this. My kid now has a lawsuit word out that they’re transgender that will be public record forever and ever for the rest of her life. So anybody can research Grace Zweckbronner and this will come up and show she’s trans no matter what else happens in her world. And she shouldn’t have had to do that.

Elijah 24:37
Right. That is tough. One kind of like, general question. What do you think you kind of learned growing as a mother and having Grace. *laughs*

Ann 24:53
Oh my god. (sighs)

Elijah 24:55
Specifically, like supporting her and her journey. I say that and like, I’m guessing there are a lot of things that come to mind… *laughs*

Ann 25:03
There are so many. The, the funniest one of the early ones that we had. Molly was never really like into makeup and short skirts and all that that just wasn’t Molly and Bee wasn’t either. And then Grace comes along and wants to wear makeup from day one and will wear the shortest skirt we let her wear and be just as feminine or girly or proud of her body or any of those sorts of things and having to weigh what’s best for this 12 year old girl versus understanding that she wants to show her femininity because she struggles with not seeing enough of it in herself and in the world and learning to balance that was… difficult. And I advise all parents… Harry and I had a discussion pretty early on and said we’re going to treat her just like we would treat our other children in the same situations. And so you know, no makeup and but other thing we’ve learned is just to let your kids be who they are. I…It is one of my biggest regrets as a parent to not let her transition earlier. I wish, I would not want to go back to having little babies, but I would like for the Ann that raised them as little babies to have the knowledge I have now. I think they’d have a more rounded worldview. *laughs* That’s not the right word. I think that it would be easier for them to be themselves. All three of them [children].

Elijah 26:40
Well, that is that is all I’ve got.

Ann 26:43
That’s all you needed?

Elijah 26:43
Thank you so much.

Ann 26:44
You’re welcome.

Elijah 26:45
I think that was wonderful. I’m going to stop the recording here.

Interview Process: 

For my interview, I was able to meet with the interviewee in-person and I used a Digital Audio Recorder provided by Carrier Library at JMU. It was a simple process where I switched the device tag for it to convert the audio file into an mp3 for my computer, recorded the interview, transferred it to my computer, and uploaded to the website. I did not edit the audio in any way.

Bibliography:

Prestidge, Holly. “ACLU of Virginia Threatens Hanover School Board with Federal Lawsuit.” Richmond Times-Dispatch, Richmond Times-Dispatch, 14 Mar. 2022, https://richmond.com/news/local/aclu-of-virginia-threatens-hanover-school-board-with-federal-lawsuit/article_50a61b93-7d02-51ba-ae7f-1843e6c7cc86.html.

Choices:

There were moments during the interview where either the interviewer or interviewee would start a sentence one way, pause to think about a different way to say it, and then rephrase the question. However, I believed these were not meant to be historically imperative to the understanding of the interview, I think it was simply trying to say something and rewording to give context or other. Therefore, in those moments, I replaced the clutter with ellipsis or I explained with brackets.