Interview with Nadia Alphonse, History 150 Spring 2020, Conducted by Mary Alphonse, March 15, 2020.

Biography:

My mother, Nadia Alphonse kindly agreed to be my interview subject. Born in 1966 and immigrated from Egypt in 1998, she has lived a life based on faith, trust, and love. She attended college in the Middle East during the slow but steady rise of higher education for women and became a successful engineer. At the same time, she experienced the blunt attempt of a governmental take over of Egypt by the Muslim Brotherhood and had first-hand experience with the harshness of their regime, especially since she belongs to a minority religion highly looked down upon by the Brotherhood. Moving to America and raising two kids in a country incredibly different from her home, she relied immensely on the support and kindness of the community. She has been working as a managing engineer for the Virginia Department of Transportation for 12 years and volunteers regularly for our church that became our second home.  

Research: 

Immigrants from the Middle East are one of the fastest-growing immigrant groups in the United States today. Within the many countries of the Middle East, Egyptian immigrants comprise 87,000+ of the estimated total of 1 million yearly Mideast immigrants. Approximately 10% of all Middle Eastern immigrants are residing within the US illegally, potentially due to the heightened security against the acceptance of Middle Easterners into the United States after September 11, 2001. In addition, the so-called ‘Muslim Ban’ which restricted travel to the United States from major Middle Eastern countries, making it harder to even arrive at a safe place for immigrants fleeing persecution or general unsafe living conditions (Camarota). 

It is no secret that women in the Middle East have faced oppressive times and even today, are still working towards a life of full equality. Education has been a major concern since it is fundamentally the segue into a successful and self-sustainable life. The first modern female school in the Middle East opened in Egypt in 1829 but ever since then, progress in female education has been seemingly slow and even restricted. Many of the countries that colonized and occupied the Middle East (I.e. Britain) were not in favor of broadly expanding education and, therefore, illiteracy among women remained high until the mid-1900s when most of the international influence moved out of the Middle East. Since then enrollment rates have statistically significantly increased and access, opportunity, and financial aid have also helped in moving forward with the  need for educated women (Cornell University Library) 

A notion of ‘Muslim Politics’ has led to the severe oppression of religious minorities and many of them are left with no choice but to flee for their own safety. Oppression takes different forms. It might be denial of citizenship, revoked education for children, lack or inexistence of political representation, the blatant destruction of houses of worship, and a judicial system formed to work against them, leave religious minority groups like Christians and Jews without a voice to be heard. Furthermore, the rest of the world remains hesitant to intervene because of the “touchiness” of the subject concerning the mixing of religion with politics (Ghanea, 2004).  

Citations:

Camarota, Steven A. “Immigrants from the Middle East.” CIS.org, cis.org/Report/Immigrants-Middle-East. 

“Education of Women in the Arab World.” Education of Women in the Arab World | Middle East & Islamic Studies Collection, Cornell         University Library, middleeast.library.cornell.edu/content/education-women-arab-world. 

Ghanea, Nazila. “Human Rights of Religious Minorities and of Women in the Middle East.” Human Rights Quarterly, vol. 26, no. 3, 2004, pp. 705–729. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/20069749. Accessed 22 Feb. 2020. 

Transcription:

Mary Alphonse: Hi how are you? Are you ready?

Nadia Alphonse: Good, yes I’m ready.

MA: Okay, first question. Can you describe what it was like growing up in Egypt?

NA: It was Okay, I think that was like the 70s and we didn’t have a lot of toys I mean we used to make our own toys by hand or come up with some games to play together. I had a big family, a lot of cousins, so we used to play a lot together. School wasn’t that fun though. It was very dry and boring, we didnt have a lot to do there, maybe a PE class twice a week, but it was mostly just studying. But church was our socialization so it became a big part of my growing up. It was around a 3 minute walk from home and we used to have summer activities and those were the best.

MA: So can you talk about what you guys did, like what it was like a typical summer day, what activities what activites did you do?

NA: Like during the day itself would be home. My mom was a stay at home mom. So during the day, we would either help her go shopping or prepare the food or the house, chores, cleaning, cooking a little bit. And then in the afternoon, if it was a church day, we go there, the church has like a big room back on the fourth floor and it was like a big play room that has different sort of toys to play with. We have like puzzles some something close to mechano or Legos. But it was all playing. I mean we prayed in the beginning and we prayed at the end. And of course wehad to clean up at the end as well too. That was it. We used to go to long trips for the church to monastery and historic Christian sites. Like in Cairo and old Cairo the churches there. […]

In highschool, and then the year after, there was a big group from the church, that they started migrating to Australia, coming to the states here, so there was a shortage of servants in the church so I ended up with a class for myself. So we used to do for outreach in some areas and it was the girls at home. I wasn’t very familiar with the areas that we go to. So there were no Google. So I had like an old map and I was trying to find myself the way, you know, some areas are so narrow and tight and like, not like streets and like alleys. [roughly translated from Arabic] They’re called just random houses built in random places. But the service was all like the Sunday school day was on Friday, because that was the day that the entire country took off becasue of Islamic tradition. So I don’t remember the names and the faces of who I used to serve but I remember that some of them were kind of embarassed of not having anything nice to wear to church becuase they couldn’t afford it or they had serious issues at home. So, we used to collect donations of dresses to give to them and I would try to pick something that would fit their personality and they were so so happy with it there was such a blessing there.

MA: You mentioned that, like you start to serve because people started to leave. Was there a reason more people started to leave?

NA: Well, most of them they were getting married. And either they were marrying people that already lived in the states or they had like, this green card. I mean, the the time there like in the 80s when Egypt got more open to America. When [Anwar] Sadat [president 1970 to 1981 when he was assassinated] came on board because it got kind of flipped.  Since [Gamal Abdel] Nasser before Sadat, was more to the Soviet Union. Then once Sadat came, he started to open more to the States and Israel. And so that immigration thing opened up more. So I think most of the leaving was either the whole family was going, or the people were getting married to someone who’s in already living with a green card and they were coming to settle in the States. At that time though, Teta’s [Arabic for grandmother, meaning my mom’s mom] family was going to Australia, because her sister [my mom’s aunt] came and visited Egypt in the early 80s was talking about, you know, the way they live, their how their education is better or the circumstances is better for a girl and for the kids it’s much better than Egypt. So, half of them got sponsorship papers and went their way to Australia. And I agree, honestly, I think the education there would definitely be better than in Egypt.

MA: Can you describe what college was like compared to grade school?

NA: In high school it was only three years. And the first year you have an ability to study everything, it’s more general. Second year you have to pick between the scientific subjects like math, biology, chemistry or the literature subjects like Arabic, English, and history. and also you either take math and science, like chemistry, physics and so or just to stick to languages, every. So I picked the scientific subjects and I was good in those I love all the scientific subjects, especially math. Then on the third year, we had to pick again so I had to pick between all science or all math because the way it works is you either go to medicine school or engineering school. So I picked math and there were only two classes for it in the whole school and they were so crowded. We were about 50-60 in one class and we used to sit like three on one bench, and it’s only has two drawers. College was a bit different. Depending on your final grade in highschool, you would go to the college that accepted that score. There were no essays or anything, it all depended on what your score was.

So, I got in with a good score and then the colleges were all sorted by area and where I lived, Cairo, there were only 2 main universities, Ain Shams and Cairo University. So, my specific area was designated to go to Ain Shams. So I started engineering there. I liked engineering but I also wanted to do Ancient Egyptian history and tourism but beacuse my grade was so high everyone told me it would be a waste if I didn’t become an engineer. I learned engineering and the first two years was all generic. And then from second year we had, we had to pick a branch to go to. At the time, there was architecture, [electric] power, mechanics, and civil. I didn’t really like architecture and I more wanted to do computer science because I thought it was interesting but it was a very tight and rare field with very little resources. So I just did architecture.

MA: Okay, so can you compare and contrast like the education that you’ve seen George [my brother] and I get here compared to what you got like quality wise?

NA: I mean, it’s a different area and I was in college in the 80s, early 80s and the difference between the countries as well too. So I remember in college we didn’t have so many resources. You know, the only thing was the lectures that the professor’s giving minimal instructions that we getting, we had a couple of labs or projects, you know, like the physics and the soils and whatever we were doing. But there was not not so many information there. So there were some students taking like special tutoring or private tutoring. And they used to sell the notes from the private tutoring. We had some young kids that they were kind of related to our professor or something so they will get us some insight on tests or the exam, like what would the exam have? But not so many of these sources like you and George have here, you know, like, now you Google stuff or research something online or even go to the library and get some books. We didn’t have that many sources and we were just stuck with a professor and thier assistants. Some of them weren’t helpful some of them were really bad because they don’t care about us at all. They don’t care if we succeed, and actually, some of them, they were challenging that none of us would succeed. Proabably because it was a public university. Something I see here is that they care a lot about the students here. Back there, even if the professor was being unfair with a grade, there was nothing you could do about it. We all also lived at home and would take public transportation everyday. Since I was doing architecture, I would carry huge plans and drawing boards back and forth on that crowded bus.

MA: After you graduated college was it hard for you to find a job in general or one that you enjoyed?

NA: Well, finding a job was quite challenging there becuase the field that I was in was architecture and women in engineering was not very common. Because most of the companies they prefer the male engineer because the male engineer can work in the office and in the field as well. So a woman could only be in office. And that goes for the architecture for the civil engineering for power or the electrical, and mechanical. These were kind of challenging and engineering in general was kind of challenging for the girls. Except for the architecture because it’s an office job and you don’t have to go to the field at all. So it was quite a challenge and I didn’t have anyone that I know will have a design office or someone to help me find a job. But, you know, there was something in the way that the government is run that each graduate will have an assigned job. But the backlog was like five, six years long.

I couldn’t wait. I couldn’t stand waiting. I can’t remember how I got my first office job but they needed like an entry level employee. So I was hired with another girl. We were helping the design engineers. So if they did the pencil design, we would go back and do the ink over it. And it was a nice office. I mean, it doesn’t have a lot of girls. It was only three girls. Me and one of the other girls were the only two Christians in the whole office. They were mainly male engineers, and one other lady but she was a Muslim.

It was a nice mix and some of them they were really experienced. And I learned from their group too, but it didn’t last long. Because when the owner of the office came back [he had been out of the country for a while], I don’t know somehow he wasn’t happy with me and the girl being in this is designed studio. I don’t know why, we were doing great work, both of us. We had good reviews from the other engineers. We were fitting in fine but for some reason, he decided to pull us from the designer studio and assign us to some admin work. So he assigned the other girl to be some sort of admin assistant to him. Then he assigned me to the library. And we thought that this would be temporary because the project that we were working on we was done and it was delivered and it was waiting for the client comments. So the office manager was really good guy and he didn’t understand why the owner did what he did and also thought it just be a temporary thing. So he thought he will switch us back to the design when the other projects came in. But that didn’t happen. So they were hiring other people. And both of us, were just doing the admin work and they were hiring temporary people to help with the project. And then the girl with me, she was getting ready to get married.

And she said, you know, why is he doing that to us? Is it because we are girls, we are Christians? So we were not comfortable with that at all. And we felt sort of insulted that, you know, if you’re not happy with our work, just say something but the design engineers, they were happy with it. So she left because then she was getting married. And probably a week or two after that I left because he wanted me to be to do both to be like the assistant and the library person, it didn’t make sense to me at all. I couldn’t take it anymore. After that, I couldn’t find work in engineering so I stayed home and took English classes. After that I worked in a private company that sold products internationally so they needed someone good with English and so I worked there. After that I just did more admin work in companies and hotels. I learned to use a computer and different softwares. So I didn’t end up doing engineering again in Egypt, I actually ended up in tourism and hospitality which is what I wanted to do originally.

MA: So when you came here, was it easier to find something here or was it hard?

NA: Actually, I wasn’t looking for a job when I first came because when a visitor [tourist] visa and then we got married here in the church so after that we started to apply to change my visa status to allow for something like a green card. I got the social security number then a diver’s license but other that I had no papers. A month or two after we got married, Abouna [Arabic for priest, refrencing the priest that served our church back then] came to visit and he asked if I would help in the church as an administrative secretary – to open the mail, answer the phone and so on. I was going crazy from staying home so I took it as just volunteer work. Then I started helping a lady run a charity called Coptic Orphans and I just did the accounting there. I kept working until I was about ready to give birth to George. After that, more of my family from Egypt moved to the states but not to Virigina. I worked as a consultant for an engineering company for a while and then got the position with VDOT as an engineer which is what I have been doing since then.

MA: So, you mentioned that guy in that design studio in Egypt that was discriminatory but was there any other instance where you felt like it was a weird like religious dynamic?

NA: In college we had some. Personally, I had some conflicts with the Islamic group like in the 80s after Sadat was assassinated by the Muslim Brotherhood [religiopolitical organization that advocates for return to an Islamic society]. They just wanted to take over so they killed him after the victory over Israel. So after that, the Islamic groups started to take over the colleges and they started to show up and get more involved in student affairs. They started to put some regulation on the buses that we ride, they were trying to assign certain seats for girls to sit up front and the rest will be for the boys. I got in a fight with them about that because I was sitting in the back and he came to me and he said “sister, you need to sit up front,” and I said “no, why do I have to?” He tried to explain that it was “for my protection,” but I said “I can protect myself, I don’t need you to protect me.” He continued to say that “it was for my own good,” but I said “who are you? you don’t ride this bus but we have for years, we have never seen you here.” He got kind of flustered and the bus driver looked at the two of them and said “you do not ride this bus,” and they got them out. But I was oh my goodness, I was shaking like crazy. But they never came to our bus again, especially since that bus carried majority Chrisitians since it was coming and going from Shoubra [an area in Cairo that is known to house many Coptic Christians, who are an ethnoreligious group in the Middle East. Although integrated in the larger Egyptian nation state, the Copts have survived as a distinct religious community forming around 5 to 20 percent of the population]. But other than that it was for the most part okay, most of my friends were Muslim, so it wasn’t that hostile of an environment except for when the Islamic groups tried to take over.

MA: Alright, last question. If you hadn’t left what do you think your life would be like?

NA: I mean there I was working full time. I was driving a car, staying with my mom. Honestly, I don’t know but somehow I knew that I didn’t want to stay in the country. I asked my uncle in Australia to get me sponsor papers and he did but my mom wasn’t comfortable with me going on my own even though half her family was already there. Somehow I didn’t think I would continue my life in Egypt, I was thinking there has to be a better way in life, even though I didn’t have a bad life there, but I had a feeling there should be more. Maybe I would have just stayed with Teta or gotten married and had kids. I don’t know but I think God has a plan for everybody and at the right time, it worked.

MA: Alright that’s it, thank you, mama.

NA: You’re welcome.

Interview Process: The interview process went pretty smoothly. I chose a small room in our house for us to sit together and talk which worked well for the recording aspect. I recorded over my phone so while the quality was not that high, it still worked well enough for me to listen to it again. My mom had to take a phone call in the middle of the interview so we paused to and resumed after she was done.

How it went: Overall, I was happy with the way the interview went. I, however, did not anticipate my mom talking for as long as she did so it definitely went longer than I was expecting but she gave so much detail and insight into her experience that it was all worth it. In reality, the conversation flowed more than it appears on the transcript but I had to edit a lot of it out due to non-direct translations from Arabic and random details. I think I could have worked on asking more follow up questions because I made a jump from talking about her work experience in the States to how she experienced religious discrimination in Egypt which probably would have fit better earlier in the interview. Also, since her answers were running long, I also did not get to ask the wide variety of questions that I was planning on asking. However, all in all, I think the interview went well and I am glad I did it.