Overview of the Interview Process:
My interview with my grandmother, Jackie Wolf, was conducted in person at her home using a digital recorder. She and I talked over the phone to establish a time and date for the interview. I also spoke to her about her life experiences over the phone multiple times before the interview took place. These conversations helped me develop a knowledge base that would aid me in producing useful questions that pertained to changes in gender norms during her lifetime. I did have to do a fair amount of editing to the interview audio, as the interview was longer than I expected and my grandfather kept coming into the house and interrupting the interview. I cut out some of the conversations from the discussion that I thought were not as meaningful or seemed irrelevant. After listening to the interview, I also realized that my grandmother said the word “um” a lot and I said the word “like” very frequently. I decided to delete a lot of these words due to their often redundancy and to make the transcription easier for the viewer to read. Lastly, I want to mention that when I asked my grandmother if she could think of any current events that tied to past experiences in her life regarding gender, she suggested the Me-Too Movement. Her experience explained through her words during this interview may be a difficult subject for some viewers. However, I thought the conversation was essential to include in my final project due to the insight my grandmother’s experience gives into how Americans deal with and recognize sexual assault has evolved and also how gender plays a role in these heinous crimes.
Biography:
Jackie Wolf was born in 1951 in the Carlisle, PA to William and Janet Weiser and has lived in Carlisle, PA for most of her life. She lived on a farm in a rural area during her childhood and received her primary education through the Cumberland Valley School district. She took the Civil Service Exam during high school, and then was employed at the U.S. Army War College in Carlisle, PA immediately after high school as a clerk-stenographer [a person who transcribes speech using shorthand]. Also, shortly after graduating high school in 1968, Jackie Wolf married her current husband Gary Wolf at eighteen and gave birth to her first son at nineteen and then to her second son at age twenty-two in 1973. During her lifetime, she has had many different occupations including a stenographer, multiple secretarial positions, a switchboard operator at Carlisle Hospital, a bookkeeper for her husband’s building company, and a stay-at-home mom after giving birth to her second child. She worked at the Carlisle Hospital for the majority of her working years, as she worked in the hospital from the early 1980s until the early 2000s.
Research:
A Statistical Portrait of Women in the United States, 1978. U.S. Dept. of Commerce, Bureau of the Census, 1980.
This source shows some of the significant trends regarding women during the mid to late 1970s, a time in which my grandmother was a part of the workforce as a secretary at Carlisle Hospital, and for a short period, was a stay-at-home mom while caring for her second child. As stated in the interview, she started working at the Carlisle Hospital in 1978. One of the highlights included in this report state that “the changing social and economic roles of women are most evident in the increase in their labor force participation (Statistical Portrait of Women 2).
Between 1970 and 1978, the annual average labor force participation rate for women increased from 43 percent to 50 percent. The increase in female labor force participation was perhaps due to the changing roles of women during the ’70s and the changing view of their duties by the public.
In regards to marriage, from 1970 to 1978, the percentage of women ages 14 to 24 who were married decreased from 28.5 percent in 1970 to 23.5 percent in 1978. This statistic corresponds to Jackie Wolf’s experience with her classmates, as many of them decided to join the workforce or go to college instead of continuing to fulfill the role as a housewife, a position very commonly fulfilled by women during the 1950s. In regards to the number of women receiving higher education, undergraduate 4-year college enrollment of women ages 16 to 34 rose from 1,852 women in 1970 to 2,579 women in 1978, a 39.3 percent increase. The 39.3 percent increase in women pursuing undergraduate degrees also reflects Jackie Wolf’s observation that more women were starting to pursue college degrees during the ’70s, as she talks about in 1978 how more and more jobs in the hospital required college degrees, opening the doors to higher-paid positions for more and more women.
Hewitt, Nancy A. A Companion to American Women’s History. Blackwell, 2005.
This book provides a summary of the post-World War II era (1945-60) regarding the view of women and the women’s movement during the1960s-70s. Hewitt describes that during the 1950s, there was a prevalent stereotype of women being labeled solely as housewives, constraining them to a life of marriage, home, and motherhood (Hewitt 382). Psychologists of the time urged women to avoid careers and to not assert too much authority within the home (Hewitt 391). Hewitt also explains how women encountered an era of “sexual containment,” as society attempted to contain sexual relations within heterosexual marriage (Hewitt 388). In the 1950s, police launched initiatives to suppress the underground practice of abortion, and unmarried pregnant women faced a “disciplinary regimen” from the social workers and physicians they encountered (Hewitt 389). Popular culture also dwelled on domesticity, although it sometimes strayed away from traditional gender roles and advocated for the sharing of household tasks (Hewitt 392).
The 1960s and ’70s marked a drastic change in the role of women, as the women’s movement began and the title “feminist” arose in popular culture. The Women’s Movement improved multiple aspects of the lives of women including the passing of Title IX in 1972, legalization of abortion in 1973, rape shield laws, affirmative action programs, and unpaid parental leave (Hewitt 428, 430). Organizations such as the National Organization for Women (NOW) also advocated for the passing of the Equal Rights Amendment, although it was never passed. Also, feminists supported new options for women in employment, and they succeeded in gaining access to traditionally male occupations. They also made violence against women (rape, incest, sexual harassment, battering) understood as crimes (Hewitt 428).
This historical summary gives context to some of the changes my grandmother, Jackie Wolf, described. In the 1950s, sexual assault cases were rarely reported; however, this situation changed as a result of the Women’s Movement. Jackie Wolf also experienced a change in employment, as she saw women obtain careers in higher level administrative and management positions at the Carlisle Hospital. She also suffered the lingering expectations of a housewife, as she continued to fulfill some of the expectations she learned from her mother.
“The Ten Most Common Occupations, by Gender (U.S., 1980).” Manas: History and Politics, Indira Gandi, Webteam, www.sscnet.ucla.edu/soc/faculty/mcfarland/soc157/femocc.txt
These statistics state that the most common job for women in 1980 was a secretary and the most common occupation for men was a manager. This statistic shows that what my grandmother experienced was typical, as many women were nurses and secretaries and men mainly held management and administrative positions at the Carlisle Hospital during the late ’70s and ’80s.
Transcript: ***Note: The initials “JW” stand for Jackie Wolf.
KW: So, … you got married, what were the common expectations regarding marriage and family life for both partners?
JW: Expectations?
KW: Yeah.
JW: Well, your grandfather was enrolled in college. So, we lived apart the first year, and I was employed full-time, and had a baby, and I still lived at home that year. So, the expectation for me was to work and pay the few bills that we had, which mainly was vehicles, because we both have purchased the vehicles for transportation, and to provide for our baby. Okay, and your grandfather’s parents, which would be your great-grandparents, paid for his education. So that part was taken care of. So that was the expectation that we had for each other.
KW: So, at that time…you said that—so, what was your first job then when you were doing all of that [meaning taking care of her baby while her husband was in college]?
JW: I was a business student. And so, I, at that time—I got a very good job right out of high school with the Carlisle Army War College as a clerk stenographer. It paid well back then, and we made it on that.
KW: Yeah, you said a lot woman did that correct? Was it more of like a woman’s job to do that or did you see a lot of … men doing the same thing as well, like a clerk stenographer?
Mrs. Wolf: No that was—that was mainly a woman’s job back then. And now, now I don’t even know if they exist.
KW: Yeah, I’ve never—… I never even heard of it until you told me about it.
JW: Accept in the in the courts where they have the clerk’s court stenographers.
KW: Do you think … the expectations of … Dad and Mom’s marriage are different than yours? Like … do you see a difference with … different like couples … today [with] marriage … [regarding] their expectations and yours?
JW: I do. I think more things are shared. I think a lot more things are shared.
KW: [Was there] more of an emphasis on … the wife caring for the husband? Like when you first got like—was that…what you expected to do going into a marriage?
JW: Uh yeah, pretty much yeah, and that’s…and it’s hard to break that cycle.
KW: Yeah. That’s all you grew up with, so you—
JW: Yeah that’s right because that’s what the males grew up with.
KW: Yeah so, they expect the— yeah, like I’ve noticed that with Dad. Like sometimes he’ll say certain things to mom that like I think of oh like nan does that for Pap and that’s kind of why he says like oh, why doesn’t she do this?
JW: Right, right. Exactly.
KW: Yes.
JW: So, it’s – it’s I think—that role has come a long way.
KW: Yeah.
JW: But I think it—there’s a lot of room for improvement yet.
KW: Yeah. Yeah, I get that. So, like I feel like she gets sometimes mad at that fact, but I’m just like—it’s kind of one of those things where it’s a generational thing. Like if you didn’t grow up with it, you’re not going to know that [women taking care of men in a marriage] even is a thing, so but—
JW: Yeah, and then you know I worry about like your mom like if he would if your dad would say that to her, you know that I don’t want to be—feel guilty because I did it you know all those years and then you know.
KW: Do you think your past marriage has changed a lot like your role since like that point? Like do you still do the same things you did twenty years ago for him or has that kind of changed?
JW: Yeah, I do, not everything.
KW: Yeah.
JW: You know—but he— because he had his own business, you know he worked a lot more than 40 hours a week,
JW: Which you can relate to.
KW: Yeah.
JW: It might have been 50 or 60 hours a week.
KW: Yeah.
JW: So, he didn’t—so I still did a lot of those things because he was the sole provider.
KW: Yeah
JW: You know working all those hours, a lot more than 40.
KW: Yeah.
JW: And even though I worked, I didn’t work the extra hours that he did, and some of those years I worked part-time, some full time. So yeah, I did carry that roll through and do that out of love—
KW: Yeah.
JW: for him.
KW: Like would you do the same things—like if you could start the marriage … over again, would you continue doing the same roles or would you want to change anything? Would you continue … being in the same routines?
JW: No, I would change some things, if he didn’t have the 40 plus hour week job.
KW: Yeah. So, did a lot of … your friends that are … girls go to college or was that kind of not something they wanted to do?
JW: Because I was enrolled in business, I had some similar friends enrolled in business, so no they did not pursue. Back then the valedictorian of our class was also a business student, and she pursued a job in a legal office, and I remember talking to her later about that job versus my job and salary and I was making more salary than her and she was valedictorian of the class. So, back then, business jobs paid well.
KW: So, … back then was it more common for … everyone to just go into business classes and then go right out of high school and get a job. … Was that acceptable?
JW: Yes.
KW: … You didn’t need extra education for that …?
JW: No, no. Like I said, I mean I took the civil service exam and we all had that opportunity to do that. There were a few boys enrolled in business, but not many. It was mostly female. I’m assuming that most of the other boys were in either FFA or College Prep courses.
KW: So, what was kind of the difference between … business and College Prep? Like was it just … solely business classes?
JW: I was enrolled in college prep for one year, but I had a lot a lot of trouble with algebra. There were a lot of mathematic math classes in the college prep courses, and that’s what made me switch to business was the math.
KW: Math aspect, yeah.
JW: Yeah, of that. Knowing I had so much trouble with algebra, I couldn’t see myself being able to conquer the other classes, like trigonometry.
KW: Yeah, do you think if you would have had … not so much trouble with math [do] you think you would’ve gone to college? Like could have you seen yourself doing that?
JW: No.
KW: No?
JW: No, I did not see myself doing that.
KW: Yeah.
JW: I did not.
KW: Did a lot of your … friends go the same route you did right out of high school? Like did they get married, have children?
JW: I think the females that grew up on a farm or in a very rural area did not see themselves going to college, but there were a lot of females in our class also that lived in developments and their outcome was different. Those are the ones that went to college it seemed.
KW: So, like did you see like a difference in social class then, like of who went to college and who didn’t?
Mrs. Wolf: Yeah sure, most definitely, yeah.
KW: So maybe the females that were in … the upper middle classes … definitely went that route?
JW: Yes, more so yes, then— exactly right.
KW: Okay. So, next I’m going to talk about … your job at the hospital which is – like you said, that was … the majority of where you spent like your career?
JW: Yes, that would have been the majority, yes.
KW: So, I was kind of researching … things before this interview to try to get like some background on like the trends like throughout the decades and it said in [the] 1980s the most common job for women was a secretary in the most common job for men was a manager. So, while working at the Carlisle hospital, did that kind of reflect that statistic? Like [were] men…in like the higher kind of paying jobs and women were kind of in the lower paying jobs?
JW: I would say that yes.
KW: So, can you kind of…explain…if you noticed…a gender imbalance in how…the hospital ran? Like who had jobs where things like that? [Especially] regarding…nursing, who was a doctor, …who were the managers…?
JW: Most of the doctors when I started in at the hospital, which would have been in 1978, most of the doctors at that time were male. I would say most of the clerical, office employees, administrative assistants were female, and most of the managers were male at that time and it didn’t really matter if it was upper management as in administration. They were mostly all male at that time. I would say nursing—back then nursing was mostly a female thing, not male a role. That has changed. That changed through the years. In nursing it would have been female directors, and then as you went down the ladder, say laboratory and business office, most of those managers were male with employees female.
KW: Did you notice it was hard for like women to move up in those like those hierarchies of… getting…manager positions or…other administrative positions? Like would they choose a male over female?
JW: As time went on, the job market demanded a degree, mostly a bachelor’s degree or masters. So, at that point, I think you could see the shift changing from male to female, you know, and kind of even out a little bit not 50/50, but even out a little bit, and then males started becoming nurses.
KW: Yeah.
JW: You know that became a lot more popular, and then you saw a lot more male management in nursing.
KW: When do you think that shift kind of like started?
JW: The male in the nursing profession? Oh, let me see, probably [19]78 I would say they were mostly female from what I could see probably I’m going to say the 90s, early 90s, I think that shift started to change. You know nursing was hard job. It also paid well, which I think attracted more males to that role.
KW: Basically, you mentioned that one of your experiences relates to kind of the Me-Too Movement now. Can you explain like how it ties to that?
JW: Uh-huh I can. I was small, probably preschool age, and I and my—back then it was not uncommon for grandparents to raise grandchildren and my paternal grandparents raised two grandchildren, the first one being quite a few years older than me. But we would go visit them and this would have been a first cousin of mine that she was raising, the grandmother—current parents were raising. He started to abuse me sexually, and my father suspected that. So, he took me to their house one evening. I remember vividly my cousin approached me, and he said, “hey, let’s go see the rabbits out in the shed.” So, we went, and my father followed and caught him, and so he — we all returned to the house and he confronted my grandparents about this, and my grandmother denied that — she didn’t believe that it happened.
KW: Even though he [Jackie Wolf’s father] just saw it happen?
JW: Yes, yes, but my grandfather did believe it. But it caused such a rift within in our small family, that small family focus, that my father did not go home to see his parents. He gave up that relationship with his parents for me, as I look back on that. So, he didn’t really speak to his mother again until she became quite ill and elderly, and I was an adult. He would—I can remember going with him to their house and he would park outside, and he would take me so I could see my grandfather. My grandfather would come see us outside because we didn’t go in the house any longer because my grandmother didn’t want us to come in any longer.
KW: Why is that—do you like—why didn’t she want you to come?
JW: She didn’t believe that the grandchild she was raising abused me.
KW: So was that like not something heard of back then like—people don’t like—because I know nowadays—
JW: I think it happened many many many times over but it just—
KW: But it just wasn’t talked about?
JW: It was not talked about no, no.
KW: Because nowadays it’s talked about so often … It’s so prevalent, like people come out about it so much more often.
JW: So, she just, more or less, I don’t remember—I was not there for that conversation and I don’t know that I would have remembered it, but my father severed the relationship with his mother because she didn’t believe him. 15:45
KW: So, what happened to your cousin then …?
JW: He continued to live there, and he had several mistresses. I don’t know that he ever was married, and you know and I—he was still on the family picture. I remember him being around, not that I was around my grandparents, but I know he was there.
KW: Yeah.
JW: He was there, and he was involved with Aunt Jean and Uncle Bruce, and that’s about all I know of him.
KW: Yeah.
JW: You know he passed away, but there was no other contact with him by me or my father and mother.
KW: So, did your father think about like pressing charges…or getting him in trouble or is that just not something and they did either?
JW: No that was not something that—I don’t even know if it was heard of back then, you know.
KW: So, I know … my mom used to tell me stories about how she used to … ride her bike outside go out and do…whatever they want … Nowadays you can’t just do that … in the middle of the street, you risk getting like kidnapped … So, did that kind of impact … the way you let your kids live their lives when they were younger, or did you still let them do the things that … kids were doing?
JW: It might have if I would have had a female a girl, but I had males, so I was always very watchful of my children. So, I don’t—I don’t think it impacted me in a big way when I had children, I would not have thought back then of males being abused as much as females.
KW: Yeah.
JW: Which was wrong.
KW: Yeah, that is wrong.
JW: Yeah, as I look back now that was wrong.
JW: Yeah that was wrong. Because I think there are as many males abused as there was females.
KW: Yeah exactly. So, did anything like this ever happen like that you heard of like later or is it kind of like the only experience that you heard of back then like this happening? Or like cause— nowadays everything is very out in the open but back then it was all very hush hush don’t talk about it.
JW: So, I can remember my best friend Margie, who’s passed away now, but she was also kind of abused in much the same way. So, we shared that. I think there’s a lot lot more out there that happened—
KW: that no one ever talked about?
JW: Yeah.
KW: Yeah, that’s a big change.
JW: And no one will ever know.
KW: Exactly, no one will ever know. Yeah, I think nowadays it’s more common to take initiative and to stop it but back then it just—
JW: So, it has made me think of what my father gave up for me.
KW: Yeah, like he gave up a relationship because—
JW: He did.
KW: Yeah
JW: He did, he did. And his parents eventually moved close to where we lived but he still did not go home, but his father would walk. We probably lived maybe one to two miles from their house and he would walk to our house, you know to see us. And then…my dad would take him home, but he would not go in.
KW: So why do you think she didn’t believe it, like your grandmother, that it actually happened?
JW: I think that part of it was—my father was kind of dubbed the black sheep of the family. He was the only son out of that family that was not an alcoholic. He was the only son out of that family that didn’t need help, and I think they resented that. As I try to look at the whole picture, yeah, I just—yeah, I always felt he was dubbed as the black sheep because he did well.
KW: Yeah.
JW: Not, not—he had a blue-collar job. We weren’t rich by any means, but he was able to raise his own children, pay his own bills, if that makes any sense. My grandmother was probably maybe had some mental health issues. I’m just guessing. She was very physically abusive to her children. So, maybe that had something to play in with her attitude and her personality and she was just—could be not a nice person.
JW: Yeah, I think that’s all I have, but thank you very much. That was great.
Conclusion:
Overall, I think the interview went well. If I could do the interview again, I would make the questioning more formal because I thought the conversational style of the interview made the discussion slightly disorganized. I would also be more conscious of my wording to make the interview easier to listen to and the transcript easier to read. I found it easier when going “off script,” as I felt it allowed for more useful information to be presented, although the interview could have flowed better.
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