Overview To Interview:

Teaching and educating is one thing in the U.S. and in the world that has stayed constant, but the way we go about proficiently instructing others is a continuous change. This interview with Pamela McHugh, an ESOL (English As A Second Language) teacher with decades of experience in the U.S. education system, explores how educational philosophies, state and federal policies, and approaches to teaching English learners have evolved over time. By reflecting on her own training, classroom experience, and the changing of educational policy, she offers insight into the broader social changes that have shaped how schools address linguistic educational equity. McHugh discusses how the instructional methods she was trained in during college contrast with both the way she was taught as a student and how her children were later educated—revealing a shifting intellectual landscape that reflects broader societal change.

In the late 20th and early 21st-century educational reform, the interview highlights key national policies such as No Child Left Behind and the Every Student Succeeds Act, emphasizing how implementation by state created disparities in support for ESOL programs. McHugh explains that her path into ESOL began with a recognition of linguistic inequality in classrooms, and she recalls how, early in her career, ESOL students were often overlooked or poorly supported. She notes that while progress has been made in curriculum design and inclusivity, challenges such as limited resources and standardized testing pressures persist.

A particularly engaging moment in the interview is when McHugh describes a shift in teaching philosophy: “Now, we start with communication—encouraging them to speak, even if imperfectly—because language is learned through use, not silence.” This personal insight connects to broader themes from other educators who have witnessed similar transformations in teaching strategies and student engagement. 

Bio Information:

I will be interviewing my mother, Pamela McHugh, she was born in 1972 in Rockville Maryland. She grew up in private school from kindergarten-eighth grade and public school from tenth-twelfth grade. She earned her undergraduate degree at Rutgers University in New Brunswick New Jersey majoring in psychology where she was admitted to their teaching program and got certified to teach kindergarten through sixth grade. After college she taught fourth and fifth grade at Oakland Terrace Elementary and Flower Hill Elementary in Montgomery County Maryland for eight years. In 2016 she earned her Masters degree in TESOL (teaching esol as a second language) and began teaching ESOL at College Gardens Elementary in 2017 to present day.

Source Credit: Pexels.com/search/teacher/

Citation Information: Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Transcription:

Claire McHugh 0:02
Okay, so hi. My name is Claire McHugh, and today I’ll be interviewing my mom, Pamela McHugh, who I will address as mom. We will be discussing my mom’s personal experience with educational and academic changes that have occurred involving teaching and learning strategies that have evolved from the late 80s to present day. We will also be highlighting cultural changes in our country and how that has impacted the needs and values in the United States educational system.

So we’re going to get her first hand experience from this perspective of being not only the learner, but the educator as well.

So I tried to make these questions in kind of like a strategic order, so

yeah, so let’s get ahead with the first question. What made you want to become a become a teacher, and then why did you then make the transition into your specialty, which is teaching English as a second language.

Pamela McHugh 1:02
Okay, well,

I just always liked school. I Was a little nerd.

I just enjoyed it. I loved learning, and I loved the whole process of teaching and learning, and I always looked up to my teachers, and I’m sure you remember, but I then in high school, started teaching dance, and I realized, you know, I was good

with teaching kids to dance, and I just loved when they liked what we were doing, and they learned quickly, And when they didn’t learn quickly, I had fun helping them

and also just being a performer. So I performed my whole life. I like being on the stage, and honestly, teaching is sort of like performing, in a way, because you have to keep your audience engaged. And what was the second one is, How did I become take the specialty?

So after about five or six years of teaching fourth and fifth grade, I was overwhelmed. I mean, it’s just a lot for a teacher in elementary school to be teaching every thing, every subject, perfectly. And I am a perfectionist, and I became very frustrated at the amount of work that I had to do every day in order to come up with good lessons. And I could never have all of them like the way I wanted.

So, you know, then I had Sean, so I stayed home, and then I had you and I stayed home, and then I tutored. And while I was tutoring, I realized I wanted to go back to being a teacher, but I didn’t want to go back to the like classroom teaching, and I wanted to specialize, and I really wasn’t sure what that would be, um, and it was honestly sort of like a process of elimination. I just started. I actually never thought I would be an ESOL teacher, because all the ESOL teachers I knew were fluent in in another language, especially Spanish. And even though I had taken Spanish for many years, I didn’t feel like I was good enough or comfortable in that language, so I kind of put it aside. But it wasn’t until actually, when you were at dance one day, and I sat down next to a mom and we were waiting for it to finish, she said, You should really be an ESOL teacher. I’m an ESOL teacher. I don’t speak other all other languages, but you have to remember, they’re they’re going to be learning English, and you can’t possibly ever know all the other languages that’ll go into your classroom. I’m like, Oh my gosh, you’re right. So then, um, I, I started observing, and then I loved it.

Claire McHugh 4:06
So, um, did you notice any differences in how you were taught to teach in the 90s versus when you went back to school about 20 years later to grad school? And if so, what were those differences?

Pamela McHugh 4:23
So, yeah, I mean, in the 90s, everybody had one textbook. Everybody read the same story. There was one textbook for math, everyone did the same thing. I mean, for writing, I remember there was a big push for the five stages of writing, like the with the brainstorming, the planning, the revising, the publishing, like that was a big push then and then, when I went back in the what’d you say, like when I went back to for grad school? Yeah. I mean. That’s a little bit different, because I was it was a focus on, you know, ESOL students, so I feel like there was a lot more attention paid to specific strategies on how to help learners understand what they read, or how to get them to produce a thought on either orally or in writing. So there was a heavy push on strategies, and also just, we talked really a lot about making them feel comfortable and providing a safe space, because a lot of the immigrants are coming from, you know, there’s not just one, ESOL students, not umbrella, right? Because they all come from different walks of life, different countries. Some are fleeing their country because of danger. Some are coming because they have family here, and they just want to be together, you know? So there’s different reasons. So we learned and talked a lot about just their emotional state, which I don’t remember learning that in the 90s, trying to think if there’s anything else. I mean, also, just like going back to teaching, it’s not really the norm. You know whereI used to teach now and where I’ve taught since I’ve come back from grad school, so it’s been eight years. I mean, you know, I’m in an IB school, so the IB elementary school is not like your norm. Did you say what let me see when I went, when you went back to when I was teaching? Or you just want to know about how I was taught to teach?

Claire McHugh 6:44
Yeah, just how, when you went to undergrad, how they taught you to teach, and then versus how you were taught to teach in grad school, if there were any differences?

Pamela McHugh 6:56
I’m trying to think of this. Anything else? Um, I I mean, I feel like my education in grad school was much better, just because I felt like at Rutgers in the 90s, it was kind of fluff, to be honest. And then when I got to school, I really did not feel prepared to teach. It was on the job training, but with grad school, because we really were given specific strategies, I felt much more prepared to teach. So I don’t know if that was just okay. I will stop talking. Go ahead.

Claire McHugh 7:46
So the next question is, what were the differences in elementary education when you were in grade school as opposed to when your children were in grade school?

Pamela McHugh 7:59
Okay, so you Yeah, so, you know this, it’s, it’s kind of hard to compare, because I went to a very small private school, so kindergarten through eighth grade, it was tiny, right? So I had like 17 kids in my whole grade. It was, everybody sat in rows, everybody sat facing forward, right? And everybody it was, you know, it was very strict. There’s not a lot of movement going around. You know, there was no like cooperative like, when you guys went, like, cooperative groups were big, like, at all the back to school nights, you guys in your classes, kids were sitting facing each other. There was talking, was encouraged. There was not a lot of like, cooperative learning when I was growing up. Um, what else I will say that when I grew up the writing, um, I just remember learning a lot of grammar diagramming sentences you guys didn’t have. I feel like enough grammar and spelling was also taught differently. Like we had a spelling book. You guys never had spelling books. I’m not even sure how you learned to spell, to be honest. But like, we had spelling list every week rules. We had to write our words, like five times. We had to do, like, a lot of spelling stuff. And I don’t, I mean, you could probably elaborate on that, but I I feel like grammar was missing, and like spelling work was missing for you guys. Not enough. Yeah, um, yeah, what else is that enough? Or do you want more? That’s

Claire McHugh 9:47
good, okay, um, and my next question is, did your teachers when you were in grade school teach you differently than the way that you were taught? To teach now. So, if so, what were the main differences? Like, were there differences in lessons, structures, values?

Pamela McHugh 10:09
Um, well, so like, the structures I was already talking about, right? Like everybody, just the physical setup of the room was different. Um, with the desks, I feel like, you know, in grade school, you just kind of, it was like, sit and get you just listen to the teacher. You took your notes, you studied, you took a test. You know, it’s pretty straight up. Let me see. So you said, what were the main differences in lessons?

Claire McHugh 10:46
Yeah, like, structure of the lesson, structure of the day, like, what if they were trying to teach you any specific like, values in school, things like that. Well,

Pamela McHugh 10:59
I mean, wait as COVID, when I went to school, as to what, as to when,

Claire McHugh 11:07
when you went to school, and between when you went to school and the way that you learned how to be a teacher. So like, were there differences between the way you were taught to be a teacher and your teachers back when you were younger.

Pamela McHugh 11:27
Oh, well, yeah, because when I was taught to be a teacher, we were we were encouraged to have kids communicate with each other and like, you know, come up with ideas together, ask each other questions. It was much more like engaging with each other. There was like dialog going on between students, whereas, like I said before, when I went to school, it was just like you just listened. It was quiet, you know, there was a lot more noise. Mostly, that was good. Um, it’s hard for me to kind of reflect on that, because I don’t think my schooling was like the same, like I didn’t go to a public school, like it might have been noiser in a public school. Maybe they were. I tell actually, I will tell you that granddad had me go to the private school, because at that time, there were open classrooms at Barton slitley. So open classrooms were like, literally just a huge room with like those border so they’re not real walls. The

Claire McHugh 12:40
public school had the open classrooms. The public

Pamela McHugh 12:42
school the open classroom. And granddad knew how. You know, I my attention would have been all over the place. However, I will tell you at Rutgers when in in 19 like nine, early 90s, one of my student teaching experiences, I had to go one day a week to see if I really wanted to be a teacher before I, like, dove in the program, and they had open classrooms there, and it was horrible. So that was in the early 90s, which was kind of surprising, and it was horrible because the teacher had to keep going. What did I just say, Jimmy? And then Jimmy would have to reply back like was constant, because it was so noisy, was just a class over there, and if you wanted to have silent reading, forget about it. So that was a problem. Um, yeah.

Claire McHugh 13:35
Um, how is teaching and the overall educate education system different now than in the 1990s and early 2000s and can you give me some positive and negatives of both? The other

Pamela McHugh 13:55
I would say that technology is the hugest difference. Okay? Because now literally and post, zoom right post, sorry. Post COVID, every kid has their own computer. Okay, the positive of that is especially with, well, there’s a bunch of positives, one for me as an ESOL teacher, if we’re reading something, even if I’ve abbreviated the text, I can have I can Google an image immediately, if they don’t know, like today we were talking about tectonic plates and how volcanoes erupt, right? They don’t know what that means, okay? I could literally Google an image. I could even Google a video and then show them, and they immediately have comprehended the text. It’s a huge asset. It’s hard, it’s it’s hard for some kids, because they can’t control themselves and they are playing games when the teacher is teaching. I mean, we have like, a. Go guardian. I don’t know if you remember that, but like, you know, you the teacher can see what kids are doing, but not while she’s actively teaching, because she’s not watching them. So it can be a distraction.

Claire McHugh 15:11
That’s a good answer.

Pamela McHugh 15:14
good. And also, like another positive is, you know, they can do language learning, like with Duolingo, I have this website if you want to check it out, called unite for literacy, which is really nice because they’re simple books, but it’s all digital, and the narration language can be in their home language, and then they can hear one page in English and one page in their home language, and it’s just a simple sentence with the big picture on like, there’s 100 books on there, and they love it. So, I mean, it’s a great teaching tool. And so now I got caught up on technology. What was the question? Let me go back. There had to be something else. Oh, here. I think I have it. It is that? How is teaching and the overall education system different now? Yeah. And the 90s. Then went like, now, right? The 90s and now, okay, um, so that’s the technology is more a positive than a negative. But a negative is what I said. Um, I would say this is a hard year to answer that, because we just got a new curriculum, but I’ll put that aside. We in a way that the reading has been better. It’s not this year, but it has been better because you could have reading groups, right? You could have challenged the kids and differentiate their learning and their ability to read, and the groups, you know, could be fluid. So if one kid got, you know, better at reading, they could move around. I’m sure you remember that because you grew up with reading groups, um, and also with math when I was growing up, or even when I was learning to teach, we just learned to teach. This is the rule. This is how you do it. The kid asked why? I don’t know why I’d have to say I don’t know why I was taught that way, right? You just, you just cross out the nine, make it a date, and put the one over here, right? You move on. But now today, it’s nice, because the math curriculum, at least in montgomery county, I’m not sure anywhere else, but we have Eureka, which is really good, because they have to draw pictures. And so it’s explaining why this works. Why are we regrouping? Oh, I can see it. I have to circle a 10, or I have to, you know, regroup this. And I think even when you were learning your multiplication tables, you had to draw the arrays, right? You had to, like, see what four times five was. You literally had a visual. And I really like that, because the kids get why they’re doing what they’re doing. Yeah? So that’s another one.

Claire McHugh 18:03
Okay, that was a good question and answers. Yeah, how has the political state of the world? We’re kind of switching it up now, then and now had an impact. You can say, then or now, it doesn’t matter, or both, had an impact on your job as not only a teacher, but an ESOL teacher and your ESL students. And then I said, is there more of a need for teachers in your specialty nowadays? Could you expand on that? Well,

Pamela McHugh 18:37
I can’t really comment on the political state in the world in the 90s, because I gotta be honest, I really wasn’t up on the political state of the world. I mean, Clinton was President, you know, we were happy. I don’t feel like it was tumultu, a tumultuous time. So it’s not like now, now is like extreme. Back then, it was just kind of like, oh, you know, things were kind of moving along. I remember affirmative action being a big thing, like, you know, we’re, we’re doing it too much, you know, now we’re overly affirmative actioning people. That’s not a real word, but, you know, that’s all I remember about the 90s, to be honest. Um, but now it’s, I mean, it’s a mess, you know, I don’t like Trump, and the main, main reason why is that he’s, he wants mass deportations of immigrants, and we’ve got ice now back in the on the stage. And I’m telling you, this seriously impacts my students. A couple of them have said that they’re scared they’re going to come to school and take them away. I mean, this affects their mental state and feeling of safety just in our world today. Um. Uh, also now he wants to dismantle the Department of Education, which would have a negative effect on my students. Um, so Title One, are you familiar with Title One? I don’t know if we talked about that. Um, so Title One, funds, right? Our federal funds, that they fund Head Start is one. So if we get rid of the Department of Education, which sounds like might happen, it’s going to get rid of Head Start, so all the kids that can’t afford preschool are not going to get a head start. And it’s going to further the achievement gap. Are you familiar with achievement gap? Okay, it’s gonna, like, make that, I think worse, right, when you don’t give the kids a head start, like, perhaps they’re white or no higher economic counterparts will get because they can afford To go to preschool. Wait, I have one more. Oh, and like, you know how I teach summer school. So the Title One Funds fun summer school. So those kids, even after had start, like throughout the rest of their schooling, will not be able to get extra help over the summer for free, like they have been so and then, is there more of a need? Yes, there is a huge need for ESOL teachers. You know this, and I will state it publicly in this interview. I am teaching four grades, which is entirely ridiculous. It’s ridiculous. So yes, we need a lot more funding for ESOL teachers, because we have too many kids and not enough teachers.

Claire McHugh 21:47
So you kind of answered started going into my next question, which is, what are some of your challenges? What are some of the challenges you have faced as a teacher in your specialty? And I know you just said, you know, not having teaching four grades. But is there anything else besides that that you would say is a challenge.

Pamela McHugh 22:07
it is a challenge when you have multiple languages in one group. So when I first started at college gardens, I mean, I had Korean, Spanish and Portuguese in one group, all in first grade. So it’s easier, of course, when they all speak Spanish, right? Because then you can use one language to translate things. It’s harder when you’re like, oh, I need it for this and this and that one. So that’s that’s hard. And another big challenge, I’ll say, is when we get students from a lot of Latin American countries that haven’t had really good schooling, and they come here and they’re not literate, so they’re in third, fourth, fifth grade, and they don’t know their alphabet, and they don’t know their sounds, so I can’t even give them anything in Spanish to read, because they can’t read. That’s a huge challenge.

Claire McHugh 23:17
Okay? And then my last question is, what are some of the educational policies that have impacted schools and teachers over the years?

Pamela McHugh 23:28
Okay, so I actually was glad you sent me this list of questions, because I I only know No Child Left Behind, and then every student succeeds act, but I thought there had to be one before that, and then I looked so, yes, there is. So I’m going to just, I did take some notes to help you out, so I’m just going to zoom down them. Okay, so the first one was called the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965 so that basically was way back President Johnson Lyndon Johnson signed it into law, and the purpose was to give low income students more resources so but it didn’t interfere with the state’s rights to decide on the curriculum, right? So the state still had a say. Then George Bush came along, and he signed the NCLB No Child Left Behind Act. And that was sort of a mess, to be honest. That made so instead of giving power to the states, the federal government was like, You guys need to fix your test scores, there’s huge achievement gaps. You know, we’ve got black and brown students here, we’ve got white and Asian students here, and we need to, like, get these scores up, guys, right? So they put a lot of pressure on the schools, and they said, you have to make something called AYP, which was annual, yearly progress. And if you don’t make it, you know, we’re gonna have to send actually, I don’t even remember what they said. They’re, you know, you’re gonna have to make it by a certain year. And if you don’t make it, I don’t know if they like, sent more people there. They got in trouble, or whatever it was. I’ll send you some information on it, but, but what? But why it was bad was that teachers were under so much pressure because their school kept failing. Would like if one school, if you, if you were in, like a failing school, the teachers were under so much pressure that they were actually sometimes caught cheating on the tests to make their kids scores higher so their school wouldn’t fail again. So, but it did. It did help that some of the math scores, especially for black students, it did, you know, help that um. And it also helped teachers get paid more, yeah. And then after that, the So, what we have currently now is it’s called the Every Student Succeeds Act, and that’s what Barack Obama signed. And so that was basically it put more power back to the States. So the federal government is still, you know, part of the picture, but that they were like, We don’t want you guys to be so stressed out. You know, we want every child to succeed, but we don’t want to get everyone in a panic. So let me see. I mean, bottom line, and I’ll stop talking the purpose of of this act is that they wanted to make sure that all children have a fair, equal and an opportunity for a high quality education.

Claire McHugh 26:56
Is that all Do you have anything else to add?

Pamela McHugh 27:01
I um, I don’t really have anything else to add. Wait, I might have jotted something down here. Hold on a second. I mean, oh, here I did, right. This is, this is good. This, this, every student succeeds. Act is called ESSA. It is considered to be better because, like I said before, it gives the states significantly more flexibility and control over how they assess student achievement, and not how, like the federal government defines achievement. So, yeah, so the states can tailor educational approaches to better fit their unique needs and student populations. That’s what I that’s what I wrote down there. Yeah, oh, here. Oh, wait a minute. I did write this down. So with regards to English language learners, it requires the states to include English language proficiency as a measure of the school quality, and that’s huge. So like Maryland schools, I mean, every school gets a report card at the end of the year, and how much the English language learners have achieved is part of how successful the school is. So there’s like now greater emphasis on the success of English language learners.

Claire McHugh 28:27
Okay, well, thank you so much. This has been very informative. I appreciate it very much.

Pamela McHugh 28:34
Of course, happy to help. Bye, bye.

Research/Sources on Topic:

1. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/advocates-sue-block-attempted-dismantling-us-education-department-2025-03-25/?utm_source

The article from Reuters discusses a lawsuit filed by teachers’ unions and civil rights organizations, including the NAACP, to block President Trump’s executive order aimed at dismantling the U.S. Department of Education. The plaintiffs argue that the order is unconstitutional and violates congressional authority, as significant changes to federal education policy should require legislative approval. The lawsuit highlights concerns about the potential negative impact on vulnerable student populations and the quality of education across the country. The outcome of this legal challenge could significantly affect the future of U.S. education policy.

2. International Association. TESOL. (n.d.). https://www.tesol.org/

TESOL International Association is a global organization dedicated to supporting the professional development of educators who teach English to speakers of other languages. It offers a wide range of resources, including conferences, professional development programs, publications, and research to enhance the skills of ESOL teachers worldwide. TESOL focuses on improving language instruction and promoting best practices in the field of English language teaching.

3. Promoting program and Student Success – Center for Applied Linguistics. Center for Applied Linguistics -. (2022, May 29). https://www.cal.org/who-we-are/our-history/1990s/

In the 1990s, the Center for Applied Linguistics (CAL) focused on improving educational outcomes for diverse student populations, particularly in foreign language education, ESL (English as a Second Language), and adult ESL literacy. They contributed to advancements in foreign language teaching through research, teacher training, and development of language proficiency tests. CAL also emphasized adult literacy with the National Clearinghouse for ESL Literacy Education and created resources like the “Sharing What Works” video series. Their efforts to promote educational excellence for culturally diverse students included research on content-ESL practices and support for refugees. Additionally, CAL addressed language and culture issues within the National Education Goals.

Process of Interview: Brainstormed topic, asked interviewee for permission, created questions, researched topic, carried out the interview on zoom, transcribed the audio, added tags and categories, uploaded an image, uploaded biography of interviewee and research articles for more background information, posted the final product.