Interview with Paulanne Thacker, History 150 Spring 2023, Conducted by Cameron Shumaker, March 18, 2023.

Overview:

During the 1960s, Germany was going through a lot of conflicts post World War II. Allies such as the French, British, United States, and Soviet Union were trying to move forward, although the Cold War then began, with the Soviet Union and US quickly confronting each other over the role of Communism in the post WWII world. These conflicts eventually led to the Berlin airlift the United States increasing their army divisions, and the Berlin Wall being built. The berlin wall was a huge deal because it was a symbol of the iron curtain that divided all of Europe between communism and democracy.

During this interview with my grandmother, we talk about how she went cross country to Germany to live on a base with my grandfather. We go into detail about what it was like living on a military base during this time of conflict. Now while living on the base, my grandmother gave birth to my mother so she had a going on. We cover the topics of family, motherhood, the economy, the military, and politics. I wanted to dive deeper into what it was actually like during political conflict and the effects of the matter. My grandmother experienced and saw a lot during those three years in Germany and I just wanted to bring to life her side of the story.

Biography: I will be interviewing my grandmother, Paulanne Thacker, about what it was like living on a military base with my grandfather as he was serving his time in the Army Special Forces. Specifically, I would like to talk about her 3 years spent living in Germany during the 1960s and what it was like living during a time of political conflicts.

Research:

After World War II, Germany’s economy needed help so the Allies split the country into four sections, which were British, French, American, and Soviet Union zones.

In 1961, four million East Germans moved West because they didn’t want to live in a communist society. On August 13, 1961, the Berlin Wall was built which divided the city’s eastern and western parts. This wall symbolized the iron curtain, which divided Europe between Communism and Democracy. The article, The Economics of Density: Evidence from the Berlin Wall shared that 122,000 commuted from the Eastern part of Germany to the West in 1949. Then just before the Berlin Wall was built there were only 13,000 workers commuting to the East.

Although, the Soviet Union did things differently and began to represent communism, which the others didn’t like. These tensions got worse between zones once the Soviet Union failed to keep up with  trade shipments, so they were cut off. Then in 1947, the Western allies wanted to replace Germany’s currency with a new one that wanted to be passed around Berlin. This angered the Soviets, and they ordered a blockade that cut off all access to West Berlin. This led the Allies to respond with the Berlin airlift, which lasted a year.

CS 0:00

Hello, my name is Cameron Shumaker. And I’ll be interviewing my grandmother Paulanne Thacker about what it was like traveling to Germany with my grandfather, who was in the Army during the 1960s. Alright, so when did you get married? And did you expect to be traveling abroad with your spouse?

PT 0:19
We weren’t married in June of 1960. And yes, I did expect to be traveling with my husband.

CS 0:26

Um, so were you aware of what was going on in Germany, like prior to going abroad?

PT 0:26
Yes.

CS 0:26
So I did some research myself. And I found out that in 1961, there were 4 million East Germans who moved to West because they didn’t want to live in a communist area. And in June of that same year, President Kennedy travelled, Austria, to talk with one of the Soviet leaders, and the meeting didn’t go as planned. And the Soviet Leader threatened to cut off access to West Berlin. So that’s when Kennedy ordered substantial increases in military forces, and added new army divisions and increased air power. And then this led to an August 13 1961, the Berlin Wall was built, which divided cities, eastern and western parts, and that wall symbolizes the Iron Curtain, which divided Europe between communism and democracy, which was the heart of the Cold War. So were you so were you aware during that time like aware that President Kennedy came and then that all this was going down? Like in the same year you were in Germany

PT 1:42
I was

CS 1:43
How did it make you feel like being over there during that time?Did it make you like kind of scared being over there?

PT 1:54
I wasn’t at all afraid. I wish I had some better words to say.

CS 2:05
It’s okay. Um, so when a Kennedy ordered like the increase in military over there, so do you think that’s why my grandfather was sent there?

PT 2:16
yes

CS 2:18
And so when y’all left the states like, was it completely different coming to Germany? Or did it become normal?

PT 2:26
Well, it was after we had been here a few years. It just life was normal. A lot of people spoke English. A lot of them spoke just German too, but we managed to to communicate with the German people.

CS 2:52
Okay, so it wasn’t

PT 2:55
dramatic

CS 2:56
Yeah. Okay. And so prior to this interview, I remember you telling me that you were able to go inside the wall into East Germany. Can you tell me some parts about that?

PT 3:05
It was very depressing and it was still devastated over there. They hadn’t really recovered from the bombings that had occurred.

CS 3:24
and you told me you saw, did you just see any dead people, you said we’re trying to cross the wall

PT 3:31
I didn’t see them but we could see that they wreaths on the on the pavement where people had been shot trying to climb, climb the wall

CS 3:45
Yeah. And so like did these experiences like going into East Germany did like they impact you like once you got back

PT 3:53
very much so yeah. And it is really unbelieveable what happened there

CS 4:02
because the wall didn’t become lifted until like a couple years later. Yeah, so this was going on like during the time you were there

PT 4:10
was it what President was it,it was it Reagan who said tear down that wall Mr. Cortes have or whatever I think it was Reagan that said that

CS 4:25
because it Kennedy, what year did Kennedy pass away? Wasn’t it in

PT 4:30
in 63. Okay. Yeah, he was killed in 63.

CS 4:36
And so also I remember you telling me that my you gave birth to my mother on the base. What was that like? Like was it just

PT 4:46
Well It was done, I would say it was, though, were in the states that it was a military United States, it was a military hospital.

CS 5:08
So it wasn’t that much different. Okay, and they gave you the same amount of care as they would in a regular hospital. Okay. And so when you came back to the states, like, was it hard like adjusting like from the Stuff you saw in Germany? Or was

PT 5:24
Not really, we just sort of kind of got back into the states and took care of my two little girls growing up. And then then my husband went to Vietnam for a year for the girls were up by that time, I had third, third daughter. So

CS 5:54
and you stayed back when he went?

PT 5:58
mhm

CS 5:56
And what year did he go into the Vietnam War?

PT 5:59
He went into it in 1965.

CS 6:08
okay, so not that much long after y’all came back from Germany.

PT 6:13
We came back in 63. And he went to Vietnam in 65.

CS 6:20
So like, while you were in, while you were in Germany, like, what did you do during the time your husband and was like working and doing his daily things

PT 6:31
mainly, take care of my children. It was interesting. And we became, you know, people that were there became my family.

CS 6:44
Yeah, I was gonna ask, Was there other like, moms on the base, too?

PT 6:48
Yeah. So we, you know, we just became they will without their families, just as I was without, my family?

CS 6:57
Yeah. So you became friends with them? We’re able to help each other

PT 7:01
Yup help each other.

CS 7:02
That’s good. So were they like there around the same amount of time? Were they there much longer after you?

PT 7:10
Probably all of us. Were there about three years.

CS 7:13
Okay.

PT 7:13
The ones that were in our group.

CS 7:17
Okay. So you left in 1963 to come back home. Okay. And so, my grandfather did do like, do you remember him like saying anything about the time in Germany? Like, did any of the things affect him too? Or?

PT 7:35
No, he never. He never really lived, as far as I know.

CS 7:39
Yeah.

PT 7:40
So many people have that post traumatic syndrome. But he didn’t seem to have lived it. Although he was, when he was in Vietnam. Certainly. He was in combat there. He was not in combat while we were in Germany.

CS 8:01
Yeah. So I was gonna ask what rank was he when he was in Germany? And what rank was he when he was in Vietnam?

PT 8:07
He was he was a first and second lieutenant in Germany. And then in Vietnam, he became a captain and then major.

CS 8:21
Okay. So when did was he a Green Beret?

PT 8:26
That was when he went to Vietnam and went in as special in Special Forces.

CS 8:31
Okay. And how long was he doing that?

PT 8:35
One year

CS 8:36
Okay. And what was it like, like being at home and watching him being at war? Vietnam

PT 8:42
that was a little frightening,

CS 8:46
frightening yeah, especially with two little girls at home.

PT 8:50
Three.

CS 8:51
Yeah, three little girls at home. Did ever like scare you? Like Were you ever frightened of like, what might happen out there?

PT 8:59
I guess. You know never thought he wouldn’t come home.

CS 9:03
You just try to stay positive. And when he came home, like, could you tell? Like, how was he when he came home?

PT 9:13
He was just very glad to get home.

CS 9:16
Very glad to get home.

PT 9:17
yeah

But then we stayed in the army for three more years. And then he retired

CS 9:25
he retired. Do you know why he retired or

PT 9:28
he was just ready to move on.

CS 9:31
Do you think it was like all that he had seen?

PT 9:34
I don’t think it was that had anything to do with it. I think he was just ready to become a civilian again.

CS 9:45
Yeah. And stay at home with his children.

All right. Well, I appreciate you. And all the time you spent with me about reliving the past. Um, hopefully it didn’t bring up too many bad memories or anything

PT 9:59
Not a bit, it’s an interesting walk into my past

CS 10:06
history, yeah

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Overview Interview Technology and Process:

I interviewed my grandmother in person using voice memos on my phone. Then I sent it to my computer so that I could transcribe it using otter.ai. I had to edit a good bit after using otter.ai, but it wasn’t too much of a hassle.

Bibliography:

Roos, Dave. “How Germany Was Divided after World War II.” HISTORY. 27 Apr. 2022, https://www.history.com/news/germany-divided-world-war-ii. Accessed 6 March 2023.

“The Cold War in Berlin” John F. Kennedy Presidential Library and Museum. https://www.jfklibrary.org/learn/about-jfk/jfk-in-history/the-cold-war-in-berlin. Accessed 6 March 2023.

“The Berlin Crisis, 1958-1961.”Office of The Historian, U.S. Department of State. https://history.state.gov/milestones/1953-1960/berlin-crises. Accessed 6 March 2023.

Ahlfeldt, Gabriel M., et al. “THE ECONOMICS OF DENSITY: EVIDENCE FROM THE BERLIN WALL.” Econometrica, vol. 83, no. 6, 2015, pp. 2127–89, https://doi.org/10.3982/ECTA10876.

https://unsplash.com/photos/9zS52R_kCcY