Interview with John E. Whitley, HIST 150 Spring 2023, Conducted by Joshua Whitley, March 26th, 2023.

Overview to Social Change Interview:

John Whitley has had a very extensive career in the military and in jobs involved heavily with the military. From when he joined at 17 years old to working in the private sector he has been working with the Army. This interview covers his personal experience with the Army and some of his personal life as well as how he’s seen the social makeup of the Army change throughout his career. Some of the main points of this interview were my Dad’s special forces training experience as well as his point of view on how socially diverse the Army was where he worked. 

The demographics of the Army from 2018 showed that the Army is mostly made up of white males. With an even more disproportionate amount of white males that are generals/flag officers. (cfr.org)

The Army helped teach him a lot and it has affected him greatly throughout his career it has also affected me a lot being raised by a veteran. Being raised by a veteran definitely taught me a good work ethic and the value of things. 

Growing up with my Dad I always wanted to be in the army simply because my dad was in the army and his coworkers from then and from earlier were always around our house. As I grew up that changed and I wasn’t interested in joining the army. I also realized that as a young child, I had no idea what it means to be in the army and how much work it takes to keep the army running.

Like society changes, so do the armed forces. I explore that here.

Biography:

Born September 15, 1970, in Gainsville Florida John Whitley grew up in Clear Spring, Maryland. He has served as acting secretary of the army (January 20, 2021 – May 28, 2021), former acting assistant secretary of the army (September 26, 2018 – January 20, 2021), acting director of Cost Assessment and Program Evaluation (CAPE, August 16, 2019 – March 13, 2020), and sergeant from the second ranger battalion. He attended Virginia Tech for his undergraduate degree and the University of Chicago for his graduate degree. 

Research:

I chose to research how the army has diversified throughout history. According to the U.S. Center of Military History, women were not permitted to serve in uniform up to somewhat recently. Between 1802 and 1882 Congress permitted women to be laundresses for the Army and they were paid by the soldiers that they worked for not the Army itself. From 1901-1942 the Army used civilian contracted nurses during the Spanish-American War and the Filipino-American War. In 1943 women were actually able to be in the Army instead of just working with the Army and during WWll over 52,000 women were serving as Army nurses and more than 1,600 of them were decorated for their exceptional service under fire. From 1946-1978 it was decided that women should remain a permanent part of the regular Army and Army Reserve. In 1948 the WAC (Women’s Army Corps) was added as a permanent branch of the Army and Army Reserve. In 1970 the first women were promoted to the rank of brigadier general and as time would go on women would make up higher and higher percentages of officer positions in the army in general.

Using how women have been integrated into the Army we can see that although progress has been slow, it has sped up significantly more recently. So as our society progresses towards equality and progresses in general we can see that as a society we have put more focus on social inequalities.

Transcript:

[Joshua Whitley] [00:02]

Hey Dad, how are things going? 

[John Whitley] [00:04]

Very good. Very good. How are you doing? 

[Joshua Whitley] [00:06]

I’m doing good. So I’m going to start with the actual questions now. Can you describe your early childhood and where you grew up? 

[John Whitley] [00:15]

So I grew up in Western Maryland, in the Appalachian Mountains, in a small town, a town of about several hundred people with a school of a few hundred people. 

[Joshua Whitley] [00:29]

Oh, wow. So I know you joined the military pretty early. What led you to enlist in the military? And how old were you when you did? 

[John Whitley] [00:39]

I joined the military right after I graduated high school when I was 17. I left about a month after high school graduation. I was interested in the military and joined the army from an early age, I had several family members also in the military, I grew up with my grandfather and my uncle, and they were both retired from the army. So I was very interested in it from a very early age and went basically as soon as I was eligible. 

[Joshua Whitley] [01:09]

Oh, that’s great to hear. Can you explain how it was going through basic training and what made you want to join the Rangers? 

[John Whitley] [01:16]

So I was able to enlist with a contract for joining the Rangers. I went through basic training, then advanced to infantry training, then Airborne School, and then the Ranger Program. And then assigned to the second Ranger Battalion.

[Joshua Whitley] [01:38]

What was it like going through special forces training and can you describe how everyone got along socially? 

[John Whitley] [01:46]

Yeah, you know, it’s very challenging, right? It’s very challenging, you know, probably the two or three courses dimension, or one Ranger School. That’s primarily a leadership course. So that’s about putting people in difficult situations and having them lead, develop plans, and execute the plans. So, in each platoon, you rotate through the leadership positions of the platoon. So somebody will be the platoon leader, somebody will be the Platoon sergeant, somebody will be the squad leader. And then the rest of the group will be the soldiers. And you’ll be given a mission, you know, to go conduct a raid and ambush or reconnaissance mission that patrol. And so you’ll have to go through all the steps of that developing a plan for the mission, briefing the plan to the soldiers, and then executing the plan and going out on the mission itself. And you’ll do that with very little sleep and very little food. So they try to run you down a little bit, get you under pressure, get you a little stressed out, and then see how well you can execute these operations.

So it’s very challenging, a lot of people fail out, and a lot of people quit. During the course a lot of people don’t pass their patrols, you have to, you know, get you to get graded on your leadership positions. And you have to have a pass as a Platoon Leader and a Platoon has other leadership positions. So it’s, it’s challenging. Everybody there wants to wants to succeed. Everybody that gets theirs pretty motivated, wants to learn, you know, how to lead military operations and lead patrols that people do get worn out over time. It’s about a two-month course. So two months with very limited sleep and very little food, you really can get run down. So, so yeah, some people then start to start not to be able to make it and they’ll quit or bail out. That was in contrast to the Special Forces selection. That’s a different course that’s designed to test people’s temper mentally and physically to see if their habits have what it takes to join the Special Forces. That’s a much shorter course than Ranger School is more like a very long endurance course. Special Forces selection is more like a sprint. It’s only about two weeks. And it’s very intense mental challenges and physical challenges. And yeah, the same thing there though. You see people who everybody there is pretty motivated, wants to want to join Special Forces. But you do see people that along the way wit or is some people even get to the end and then and don’t get selected for Special Forces. 

[Joshua Whitley] [04:40]

Oh, thanks. That’s very interesting. Thank you for sharing. Was it weird at all transitioning from the strict structure of the military to being very independent in college? And if so, did your experience in the army help or make it more difficult to go to college, especially with being older than most of your peers? 

[John Whitley] [04:57]

That wasn’t difficult at all. Uh, I would say it certainly helped me I had a lot more self-discipline, a lot more maturity, and a lot more life experiences. So I’d say overall, it was a pretty big help in college. 

[Joshua Whitley] [05:13]

That’s great. Can you go into depth to the extent of your education? 

[John Whitley] [05:20]

So after I left the army, I got an undergraduate degree to undergraduate degrees at Virginia Tech, a Bachelor of Science degree. And then I went to graduate school at the University of Chicago, I got a Master of Arts in Economics, and then a Ph.D. in economics. 

[Joshua Whitley] [05:39]

Wow! That’s very impressive. And I know after finishing your degrees, you worked a lot with the army and companies that work closely with the army to enjoy working so closely with the military for the majority of your career. 

[John Whitley] [05:51]

Yes, yes. I mean, certainly the Department of Defense, and in particular, the army, you know, it’s very motivated people very dedicated to their profession, very dedicated to the institution of the army. They’re very professional. It really is like a large family. And so it’s, yeah, it’s a great place to work. 

[Joshua Whitley] [06:12]

That’s awesome. Moving on to more recently, you were the Assistant Secretary of the Army for financial management and comptroller as well as Secretary of the Army. Do you think that made you make a significant difference? And if so, what changes did you make to the army? 

[John Whitley] [06:29]

 So, you know, we worked on a lot of things. The first thing to say is, you know when you’re working in a team, team sport, no single person is responsible for the successes, it always takes a team. But we did accomplish a lot of things while I was there working together. The national defense strategy came out in 2018. And we were working on implementing, I got that right before, right about the time that, and then we were working on implementing that. So really, making some really fundamental changes to the investment plans and the training and the organizations of the army. For the last 20 years, the army was fighting, terrorism, counterintelligence counterinsurgency, sorry, counterterrorism operations primarily in the Middle East. So you think about what that meant, that was a lot of small unit operations. And what was largely a permissive environment. You know, the terrorist organizations that we’ve been facing, that have been trying to harm the United States that the army was, was fighting against, generally aren’t technologically sophisticated, they don’t have large air forces, they don’t have large missile systems, etc. So it’s very much a small unit on the ground engagement with a technologically advanced, although highly committed, and highly dangerous adversary. What the national defense strategy pointed out, is that while we were spending the last 20 years engaged in a terrorism fight, near-peer adversaries near-peer countries like Russia, and China, had been investing heavily in their military, they’d been studying our operations looking for weaknesses. And as they become more capable and stronger, we see their behavior becoming more belligerent, more aggressive, and a bigger threat to national security, you certainly see that in Russia with the early attacks on Ukraine, Crimea, and Georgia, now, the full-scale last year, February of last year, 13 months into now, the full-scale attack on Ukraine. Then you see that in China, you saw the crackdown in Hong Kong over the last several years. And then you see increasing belligerence in the South China Sea and Taiwan. So I would say the biggest thing I worked on both as the Assistant Secretary of the Army and then the Acting Secretary of the Army was this transition to maintaining our overmatch and shifting from the terrorist threat to these near-peer potential adversaries. And that means investing in modernized equipment, equipment that can operate against a technologically advanced adversary like Russia and China, then kind of a return from the small unit tactics of the terrorism fight to do large scale combat operations to larger formations, divisions, and cores, as opposed to platoons and companies in battalions as the fighting level and it means shifting from the Middle East, you know, which is one environment, you know, one climate one environment, one adversary to focusing more on the Pacific with the China threat and Europe for the Russian threat. 

[Joshua Whitley] [09:58]

Well, thank you, and especially thank you for your service and your work. And your time as Secretary and Secretary, Assistant Secretary and Secretary of the Army. Did you notice any major differences in the army from when you were enlisted? 

[John Whitley] [10:17]

Well, you know, so it was about 25, almost 30 years later. And you know, there certainly were differences. I mean, there’s a lot more combat experience. When I was in the army in the late 80s and early 90s. It was over 15 years, about 14 years, I joined the army 14 years after we ended aid to Vietnam, 16 years after we pulled combat troops out of Vietnam. So there were still a lot of Vietnam veterans in the senior ranks. But the junior ranks did not have a lot of combat experience. There were some smaller contingencies, Grenada, and Panama, and then fire the first direct other shields Desert Storm in 9192. So there were certainly some smaller skirmishes, but not the widespread combat experience that much of the army has today, after 20 years of conflict in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, etc. There’s a tremendous level of sophistication and experience in combat that didn’t exist when I was in the Army. 

[Joshua Whitley] [11:30]

Well, thank you for sharing. More specifically, did you notice any differences in the social sense? Like, was your workplace more diverse than it was in your serving? If so, why do you think these changes happen? 

[John Whitley] [11:42]

No, I don’t think there was much of a change, the Army has always been very diverse. You know, the army was a leader in integration right after World War Two. During World War Two, the army, like much of US society was segregated. But right after World War Two, the army was fully integrated and has been fully integrated ever since. So, you know, decades before civil rights legislation and other things that brought about reductions in segregation. In the civilian sector. The military had fully integrated, the military is, you know, more diverse in the population as a whole. For example, African Americans, and blacks make up maybe 12% to 13% of the US population as a whole, they’ve long been over 20%, I think, roughly around 25% of the army. So the army has always been more diverse than the civilian sector. And there’s always been, you know, it’s a real family, it’s a real sense of mission and team, trying to achieve common objectives. And you know, they all know that at some point, they may be called to go to war, and they might be in a foxhole next to each other, and their lives are gonna depend on each other. But I think you have a great deal of cohesion and camaraderie, and you really don’t have a lot of, you know, this trying to divide people up by race and pit them against each other types of things in the military. 

[Joshua Whitley] [13:07]

Thanks that was great to hear. So next, changing topics, what motivated you? Was it supporting your family? Or just striving to do the best you could? In general? 

[John Whitley] [13:18]

What motivated me to join the army? 

[Joshua Whitley] [13:20]

Along the expanse of your career, like furthering your career in that sense? 

[John Whitley] [13:30]

Well, so you know, you certainly have to work to support your family. So that’s certainly an element of it. But then the question is, where are you going to work? And what are you going to do? And what are you going to try to achieve in those jobs, then that’s where I think, you know, the army, you know, lots of jobs. You know, the best jobs are the ones where you really are invested personally, in the institutions that you’re working with. And I think that’s what the Army brings, you know, is, it really is a big family that really is one of it’s one of the oldest institutions in the United States of America, the United States Army was established on June 14 1775 2025, will be its 250th anniversary, it’s older than the Constitution, it’s older than the Declaration of Independence. So it’s certainly one of the oldest institutions in the country. And it’s certainly one of the most respected, and then one of the most important institutions in our country. So I think people at work that have served in the army or that worked with the army, in and around the army, all, you know, get a sense of the importance of the mission. The sacrifice has been made by soldiers, so that, you know, the American people can live the way of life that we have enjoy the freedoms that we have the freedom of speech, the freedom of religion, the freedom, to own property and engage in economic activity. All of those freedoms are really been protected by the army. So I think, you know, the people involved Often the army recognize that it’s a calling recognize that it’s an area of service, and recognize that it’s one of the most important, and the most magnificent institutions in our country. 

[Joshua Whitley] [15:14]

And it’s great. And finally, for our last question, looking back to your very impressive career and life, did you make any changes to the order you chose to do things? And what would you say is your biggest accomplishment? 

[John Whitley] [15:26]

Oh, I don’t know. I don’t know that I change anything. I mean, I certainly say my biggest accomplishment outside of my family, my wife, and my kids, obviously, it may, my biggest accomplishment was the time serving in the senior leadership of the army. I’ve gotten to sing at each stage along the way, but as each stage got bigger and more responsibility, etc. You know, what you can accomplish, and the light gets bigger, too. I certainly say my time as the Assistant Secretary of the Army and the Acting Secretary of the Army, where were the biggest accomplishments from a career perspective so far? 

[Joshua Whitley] [16:04]

You know, that wraps up our interview. Thanks for your time, John. 

[John Whitley] [16:08]

Right. Thank you. 

Bibliography:

Hollis, Beck. John E. Whitley, Wikimedia Foundation, 27 Feb. 2023, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_E._Whitley.

n/a. “President Donald J. Trump Announces Key Additions to His Administration.” National Archives and Records Administration, National Archives and Records Administration, 2 Feb. 2018,https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/presidential-actions/president-donald-j-trump-announces-key-additions-administration-28/.

n/a. “Trump Nominations Tracker: The People Donald Trump Tapped for Key Roles during His Term.” The Nominees Donald Trump Tapped for Key Roles during His Term, WP Company, 15 Jan. 2023, https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/trump-administration-appointee-tracker/database/.

Follow Up:

After the interview was over my Dad said that this interview made him think more about the social environment of his workplace and how it affects how productive and effective the people he works with are. He also said that because of this interview, made him think back to his past jobs and how diverse their workplace environments were.