Interview with Francesca Baldassarre, History 150 Spring 2022, Conducted by Ava Glawson, March 17, 2023.

Overview to Social Change Interview

The Nazi invasion of Italy occurred on September 8, 1943, after Italy’s surrender to the Allied powers. German forces quickly occupied Rome, disarmed Italian troops, and placed Mussolini as the head of a new Italian Social Republic in the North. The Nazi occupation of Italy lasted two years and resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of Italian civilians and military personnel, as well as famine and forced labor throughout the country. Families were separated and massacred throughout the war’s duration, leaving many children up for adoption. Francesca Baldassare was just one of the millions who lost both of their parents in WWII and placed in an orphanage in Rome, Italy.

The interview provides historical context, detailing life in Italy during World War II. Italy experienced destruction, scarcity of resources, and oppressive measures under Mussolini’s regime. This interview sheds light on adoption during the war, in which many Italian children were orphaned due to the conflict, leading to many American families seeking to adopt them and bring them to the United States. Now in 2023, Francesca Baldassarre provides a unique perspective on the challenges often faced by Italian civilians during World War II and the experiences of Italian immigrants in the United States. Francesca’s experience of struggling with the language barrier and feeling out of place is a common theme in the stories of many immigrants to the United States. She now has shared her story and opinions on growing up in a new world as a young girl.

Biography:

I interviewed my nonna, Francesca Baldassarre to learn about her courageous journey of adoption and
immigration to a new world. At age 3 my nonna, at the time known as Francesa Carbone, was placed into an orphanage during World War II in Rome, Italy. Her father was in the war and her mother could not provide for them both. Francesca’s mother would later pass away during her time in the orphanage and she lost all communication with her birth father. She was later adopted at 16 years old and immigrated to the United States with her adoptive parents to start a new life in Manhattan, New York City. Francesca knew no English when she was placed into a public high school immediately upon arrival.

She excelled in school and made many friends with similar immigration stories along the way. Following her high school graduation, she worked a successful job as a typist at a bank for many years before meeting my nonno [grandfather], Francesco Baldassarre, who was a fireman and owner of a catering business. She is now 89 years old with five children, sixteen grandchildren, one great-grandchild. She  lived a beautiful life with my nonno before his passing in 2018. She still resides at her home in Staten Island, New York and is physically active and extremely involved in the lives and celebrations of her family. Our family has remained close with our relatives who live in Rome and we embrace our Italian-American heritage and traditions.

Research:

Italy in World War II:

Italy experienced destruction as a result of World War II. Life in Italy was a difficult and trying time for its civilians. The country was heavily involved in the war on the side of the Axis powers, an alliance between Germany, Italy and Japan, which brought many challenges for the citizens of Italy One of the most notable difficulties was the scarcity of resources, which was due to the war disrupting trade and various production industries. This scarcity led to a rationing, which limited the amount of food and supplies that people could obtain, causing widespread hunger and poverty. Italy also suffered from numerous air raids and bombings, which resulted in significant damage to cities and towns, further exacerbating the already dire situation for civilians.

The Italian people also had to deal with the fascist government’s oppressive measures, which were used to maintain control. Mussolini’s regime imposed strict censorship on the media and restricted freedom of speech, causing fear and anxiety among the population. Additionally, the government enforced conscription, meaning that many Italian men were sent to fight in the war, leaving families and communities without their loved ones.

Adoption during World War II:

During WWII, many Italian children, along with other European children, were orphaned due to the war. As a result, many American families sought to adopt them and bring them to the United States. The process of adoption from Italy during this time was complex and often involved significant bureaucratic obstacles. Prospective adoptive parents had to navigate strict immigration and adoption laws, as well as obtain clearance from both the Italian and American governments. Additionally, many adoption agencies and orphanages were overwhelmed with the number of children in need of homes, leading to long waiting periods and significant expenses for families. Despite these challenges, many American families were successful in adopting Italian children and giving them new homes and opportunities in the United States.

Transcription:

AG 0:02
Okay, it’s Ava Glawson and today I will be interviewing my nonna, Francesca Baldassarre. Okay, so we’ll just start off with the first question and that was, what did your days in the orphanage consist of? And could you just explain a little bit what your time was like there?

Francesca Baldassarre 0:20
Well, got up early and then say some prayer very early, then they go down to church, mass, then after that breakfast, and then after that, school and, you know, that’s about it. That’s about it. Yeah.

AG 0:40
At what age did you go to the orphanage?

Francesca Baldassarre 0:43
Oh, maybe 3-4 years, when I was three or four years [old]. Yeah.

AG 0:50
And my mom told me your mother had visited you for a little bit. What was your relationship like?

Francesca Baldassarre 0:56
With my real mother? (Yes), it was great. She came every time to visit whenever it was allowed every two weeks. And not only she [I] went went to her, but also, I had a little friend and my mother took care of her too, because my girl friend’s mother one was deceased, I guess, I don’t know. I know, it was during the war. And, and you never know when somebody could come back or maybe you got the bombs. That wasn’t funny.

AG 1:33
I know, I know. Do you remember when you got adopted or when you found out what emotions you experienced?

Francesca Baldassarre 1:44
Well, I wasn’t too happy. I was used to the, to the orphanage where I was and lots of friends over there, and uh, you know, everything was very, very comfortable, you know?

AG 1:59
So what was your relationship like with your parents then, was it kind of difficult to adapt family life?

Francesca Baldassarre 2:06
It was one of the whole thing. It was, first of all, I already was already grown up and well, about 13 or so or 14 when they started decided proceedings for my adoption that it was a really, it was such a completely, a completely [different] situation, you know, and it took me a while to get, to feel comfortable in this country.

AG 2:39
Yeah, so going along with then, what was kind of like your first priority getting here, just like education or building a relationship with your family or finding friends?

Francesca Baldassarre 2:49
Here or you know?

AG 2:50
After your adoption, coming to the United States?

Francesca Baldassarre 2:53
Yes. Well, then I went to a I went to high school here. And I enjoyed that, I did very well.

AG 3:00
What highschool did you attend?

Francesca Baldassarre 3:01
Washington Irving High School in East New York, New York City, you know, but, but I lived in the village on the west side. Yeah. Yeah. And it was very, very nice, Washington Square. There was always something going on there, some good some bad.

AG 3:24
Were you like nervous to make new friends? Or obviously upon arrival, you didn’t know any English?

Francesca Baldassarre 3:30
Uh, no. I had a couple couple of lessons here that the worst part was also in school because even if I knew the answer, I will never raise my hand because because, you know, I was so I was very aware of my the way I spoke, you know, took me a while to learn English. Unfortunately now,well, im forgetting my Italian.

Unknown Speaker 4:03
So we’re a lot of kids in the school from America. Were there any immigrants or kids who were adopted as well? In your school?

Francesca Baldassarre 4:13
Oh in the school? Oh, no, no, it was typical American high school. Yeah.

AG 4:19
Okay so after being in the United States for a little while, what was the political climate here versus in Italy?

Francesca Baldassarre 4:28
Well, after high school I really wasn’t too much aware of what was going on in Italy, but I know that it that it was a very hard period after the after the war in Italy, you know. They depended a lot on the, even for food and stuff, from the the American that were stationed in Rome, you know? What, uh, what, what was your question again?

AG 4:59
What was the political climate?

Francesca Baldassarre 5:02
In this country, what in this country? It was everything was nice and quiet and there was no, no problems. No problem, no bombardments?

AG 5:13
Do you believe that you face like any discrimination being Italian or even a woman in the United States?

Francesca Baldassarre 5:21
Not really. No, no.

AG 5:23
So what was your first job here?

Francesca Baldassarre 5:26
Well after graduation, my standard teacher, got me a job at the bank. We would get the money of the depositers and make sure that it was on their books, you know, books, and mail them back. And I had I made friends who were of about my age. And we had a good time. And then then we started going to places you know, because I was very familiar with them [her friends]. You know, it was nice. Yeah.

AG 6:00
And then so later on what did your career consists of obviously having my one year career so obviously having five children and grandpa was a firefighter, owned the catering business. So what were you a typist? My mom had said or something?

Francesca Baldassarre 6:17
What do we do with this [inaudible] and typing and, you know, a secretary.

AG 6:24
Was that still at a bank? Or at the bank? Okay.

Francesca Baldassarre 6:27
Yeah. Okay.

AG 6:30
Do you remember when you like, realized that you found your place here and that everything was okay. Or? I mean, how long did that take you to feel like you belonged and were happy?

Francesca Baldassarre 6:42
What is it say when I started with, you know growing up making friends and there was a nice, a nice group of more than mostly mostly, Italians, also immigrants. You know, we had we did you know, it was boys and girls. And we all have, you know, very nice, very nice time together. We go to places and then um with my, my very best friend. We decided to go to go to a on a trip to Italy and we were away four months from the job. We quit our jobs, but we were promised to get it back.

AG 7:21
How old were you during that?

Francesca Baldassarre 7:23
I didn’t go back there to the back, to the bank.Yeah.

AG 7:25
How old were you?

Francesca Baldassarre 7:27
How old was I?

AG 7:28
When you went to Italy?

Francesca Baldassarre 7:29
I was, uh, 20, 21 I think. You know.

AG 7:37
So that was a lot of fun? And then….

Francesca Baldassarre 7:40
Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. Yeah.

AG 7:42
And then when did you meet grandpa?

Francesca Baldassarre 7:45
Well, I know. Actually, when I when I went to Europe. Yeah, you know, Frank was also [going to Europe]. So that’s how we, that’s how we met. You know, at the time, you know? Yeah, so money for the cruise well spent.

AG 8:13
Were there any things that you wish you did differently? Whether it was back when you were in Italy? Or when you came? Or it just in the United States, anything? Or do you think that all the decisions that you made got you to where you are today?

Francesca Baldassarre 8:29
*

AG 8:31
Do you think that you made any wrong decisions in your life? Obviously….

Francesca Baldassarre 8:35
Every I think every everything has been very well for me. I got married with five kids. It was hard in the beginning, but now they are a blessing to me now. Yeah.

AG 8:50
And what about your 16 grandchildren?

Francesca Baldassarre 8:54
Well out of the 5 [children], they were very prolific. You know, I ended up with 16 grandchildren, and they are they are they are all great. They’re really all great.

AG 9:08
And one grandchild as well!

Francesca Baldassarre 9:10
Oh, yeah. There’s one special one [grandchild] Ava of course. She told me that I better say that!

Ava Glawson 9:19
Okay, I think that concludes our interview. Thank you very much, nonna for your time.

Francesca Baldassarre 9:26
It’s always nice to be with you, Ava. Perpetual motion, that’s what you are.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

*Due to hearing issues, Francesca repeats the question in order to achieve a better understanding of what is being asked.

Bibliography:

Bezzone, Francesca. “Life in Italy during World War II – A Piece of Italy World War 2 Events.” Life in Italy, 4 Nov. 2022, https://lifeinitaly.com/italy-second-world-war/.

Cirelli, Silvia. “Adoption of War Orphans: The Italian Experience.” Journal of Family History, vol. 34, no. 1, Jan. 2009, pp. 69-91.

Conduction:

This interview took place in-person at Francesca’s home on March 17, 2023 at 1:15 pm, in Staten Island, New York.