Interview with Tina, Hist 150 Spring 2022, Conducted by Emily Goodwin, March 23, 2022.

Introduction to Interview:

Genderqueer is a term many are familiar with, but don’t thoroughly understand. For this interview, I had to research what exactly it means to be genderqueer, as well as what the differences are between gender and sex. To be genderqueer means to not follow any binary gender terms (male or female). Gender refers to how you identify yourself whereas sex refers to someone’s biological and physiological characteristics including reproductive organs, hormones, chromosomes, etc. This distinction between the two is essential to fully understand terms like genderqueer.

In this interview, I speak with Tina, who identifies as genderqueer and uses they/them pronouns. Tina uses the phrase “binary” frequently throughout the interview. The term binary means “having two parts”, which is referring to males and females. Therefore, non-binary is a term used to describe genders that don’t fit into these two categories. In today’s society, more and more people are beginning to understand these terms and categorize themselves into different categories.

Sadly, the world wasn’t always so understanding. When Tina was growing up and understanding their own sexuality, the world was a lot more binary. Gay marriage wasn’t legalized until 2015, Transgender individuals weren’t allowed to serve in the military until 2021, and it wasn’t until 2020 that the Supreme Court ruled that federal law protects LGBTQ+ workers from discrimination. These changes in recent history have opened everyone’s eyes to the potential for more open minded thinking and a more diverse world. Tina is encouraged by the currents trends towards a more accepting society, but there is always more change that needs to happen.

Biography:

This interview is with my Dad’s sibling Tina. Tina identifies as genderqueer and uses they/them pronouns. Tina was born in Fairfax, Virginia in 1968 and was raised outside of Richmond, Va. They have 2 siblings and were raised by my grandmother alone until she remarried when Tina was 8 years old. Tina and their siblings were given the gift of a very positive and stabilizing influence from their Stepfather, or “Dad” as they called him, though still being in a very conservative family environment, it was difficult for them to recognize their sexuality. They were active in high school music and theatre programs and maintained an asexual identity throughout high school, ignoring their growing questioning. It wasn’t until college when they were able to identify as gay. After college they grew into their sexuality finding a group of “chosen” family made up of friends in the gay community in Richmond, VA for which they still maintain contact today. After living and working in the entertainment business in various cities such as New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles, Tina settled in Washington, DC in their forties. Tina now works at a large law firm in downtown DC, and is married to a wonderful woman named Cris.

This interview is about Tina’s experiences growing up in a conservative traditional household, the struggles that arise from questioning one’s sexuality, and their coming out story as genderqueer later in life. Tina also shares their advice for others who are struggling to come out and explains how the perceptions of sexuality and gender have changed over time. In this day and age, it’s important for people to accept and understand gender and sexuality to be more connected with themselves and the people around them. This interview will broaden people’s eyes to the the reality of our evolving society and grasp the importance of continuing to make changes in queer and trans laws.

Transcription:

Emily Goodwin 0:03
Alright, I’m here with Tina interviewing them about their gender identity story. Tina, can you introduce yourself?

Tina 0:11
I’d be happy to. Hello, my name is Tina Goodwin. And I am the younger sibling of Emily’s father. My pronouns are they/them, and I’m happy to be a part of this project.

Emily Goodwin 0:32
Thank you, Tina. Can you explain your gender identity story? Because I realized you came out as genderqueer pretty recently, so can you elaborate on how that was for you?

Tina 0:45
Yes, thank you. So I came out as genderqueer, probably about seven years ago. Before that I had identified as lesbian, and had been since I was 21. So 40 plus years. And I had found that the way I presented myself in the world didn’t really match with how I felt. So I felt it was important to, you know, explore that. And growing up, we really didn’t have these ways of thinking about gender; it was more within the lesbian community, you were kind of pigeon holed into different types. You were femme, you were a lipstick lesbian; you were a dyke, or self identified dyke, which was more masculine. And that’s kind of when I came out, and I was growing up. And in this arena, that’s kind of how it was identified.

It wasn’t until years ago, I was in Los Angeles, and it’s really interesting, I saw someone walking their dog. And they presented, it was very clear, they were cis female, but identified in a genderqueer way. They were wearing the bow tie and kept the hair very short and very masculine presenting. And that was something that I just connected with and I saw them every day, twice a day, because we both had to walk our dogs, and I was just fascinated. It was then that really, I started to really think about my own gender and understanding that gender is not binary, after being in this world, thinking that it was binary. And it opened up a whole new world for me, and that allowed me to really find out who I am, in my gender, separate from a sexuality and being comfortable with that. It’s really finding your skin and being comfortable in who you are and not feeling like you have to hide or be anything other than you feel naturally. And that’s kind of where I’ve, I’ve found comfort and I found a sense of peace, and that I was able to really put my finger on the thing that had been missing.

Emily Goodwin 3:32
Thank you. I’m so happy that you were able to find that peace. Can you describe what it was like for you growing up in a traditional household where your sexuality was not necessarily accepted?

Tina 3:46
Sure, it was… My… The identity that I had growing up, I was always a tomboy. I was the youngest of three and I did my best to keep up with them, my brothers, as much as possible. I’ve tried to do just about everything that they did. They got motorcycles, I wanted a motorcycle. So I did my best to be the third child who happened to be a tomboy, I did wasn’t afraid to get dirty.

I didn’t really think about my sexuality, per se probably until college. I was pretty much just not sexually connected with my body in high school. And I grew up in a household that wasn’t necessarily homophobic per se, it was just not a consideration. I had on each side of my family, I had two uncles who were gay, and I always gravitated towards them, always connected with them. And that probably was when I really started questioning. I was a freshman in college and I was about to turn 21 and I knew that I was of age to go out to a bar. So, after midnight, on my 21st birthday, I went to the only place in town [gay bar]. And I walked in, and I immediately felt comfortable. Even though the first person I asked to dance turned me down. But it was, it was good experience. And, you know, it’s, I’m very grateful for that.

Emily Goodwin 5:41
Good, what are some obstacles that you faced in this time of your life when you were figuring out who you were?

Tina 5:51
So some of the obstacles were, it was a lot of shame, body shaming, feeling shame for feeling like I was different, or that because I didn’t have an interest in boys that something was wrong. So there was a lot of shame around that, and not understanding why I wasn’t really connecting with dating, or that kind of social activity the same way my friends were in high school. They were just, you know, all overjoyed, and dating all over the place, and it just wasn’t really an interest to me. So that was, that was hard, because I couldn’t figure out why I didn’t get it, or why I just didn’t want to have any kind of relationship with anybody. And then, you know, we just never talked about things like that in our family. When I started to kind of question my sexuality, you know, I was paying attention, and when I started paying attention I started hearing kind of the, the offhand jokes about the uncles, and things like that. So that also kind of pushed things down a little bit, in terms of me exploring what was going on with me. And so it was a struggle. But, it’s interesting how timing perspective can change things because there are people that I’ve known since high school who were like, we knew before you did kind of a situation. So I find that very interesting.

Emily Goodwin 7:41
Can I ask how your parents reacted when you first came out to them?

Tina 7:46
Sure. My mom kind of gave me a smile, because she knew. But, you know, I needed to tell her. And, I mean, it was, it was okay, glad, we’re glad we got that out and then it was not really a topic for discussion by us because I was figuring things out for myself. I never really talked to my parents about things in general, especially my social life, and things like that. So never really felt comfortable, just never. And my father, I cried when I told my dad, because I was worried that he would not accept it. And he was probably the most gracious and wonderful, accepting dad ever. I was very, very grateful for that, but outside of that, it was not really talked about, wasn’t really acknowledged by them to me. And so I never really felt the need to talk about it with them. So it was, you know, the topic that wasn’t really touched on.

Emily Goodwin 9:17
So now moving forward to when you came out as genderqueer. When did you truly feel accepted in that or have you and what have been other people’s reactions to this?

Tina 9:36
I think that while the second time around has been so much better. I have felt a freedom, and I suspect that lightness and freedom that I’m talking about is probably evident from the outside and it’s just an ease. I’m at ease. It really was probably when I met my now wife, Cris, that I really felt accepted. You know, because it was like, Here I am, this is it, this is me. And the self acceptance probably happened the first time I got a haircut, like a truly hair cut [short “masculine” haircut]. And then when I started presenting as male, wearing bow ties to work, wearing ties to work, just, you know, that masculine of center appearance. And then the last thing is when I went on a job interview, in a suit and tie, that, for me was huge. Because, you know, we had lived in this binary space where you go on an interview and you wear, it’s expected that you wear a certain type of clothing, and I just, I couldn’t do it anymore.

Emily Goodwin 11:05
Good. I’m glad that you have found that acceptance. How do you tolerate others that aren’t as accepting of how of your gender and pronouns and sexuality?

Tina 11:19
I think it’s really interesting, because it’s a struggle, because the balance is you want to let someone know that, you know? Not getting the pronouns, right, or misgendering, you, I should say, is hurtful. And to know that, you know, if you go back to the coming out story talking about, the parents were like, Okay, that’s great. And you just kind of move on, I would have to say that that’s a struggle, because there’s a little bit of that with family sometimes. It is, the best family in that we support each other, but that’s kind of where it ends. It’s like, Oh, that’s great. I’m proud of you. I’m happy for you. And then it’s, my guess is now, you know, I might be creating a story, in my mind with this, but it could be that it’s just not really considered after that, right. It’s like, okay, well, there’s this thing. And there’s not a whole lot of, well, I wonder what that means. I wonder how I need to move about the world. What do I call my used to be sister now? How do I address them? That’s never been a discussion with my siblings, and I. And it’s not a matter of not accepting, it’s not a matter of not loving me for who I am. It is a matter of, and you run into this a lot, it’s a matter of not having something like that in front of you enough to have it be, just a normal course of going out into the world. And it’s difficult sometimes because in the workplace, you identify yourself and then you’re misgendered. And you want to be respectful, but you also want to give a chance to give a lesson. “Hey, by the way, my pronouns are they.” Some people are, “Oh my gosh, I’m so sorry. Oh my gosh.” Some people are like, “Okay.” Which is sometimes tacit language for, I don’t care. So, I think that answers your question.

Emily Goodwin 13:44
Yes, it does. I was I was definitely correcting a lot of our fellow family members last time we were all together.

Tina 13:52
Yes. Yeah. It’s not a matter of not wanting to is my my guess it’s a matter of not understanding, and not taking the time to consider what it means when they misgender how that feels, because it hurts. And it’s hard because these are my favorite people in the world. And to call them out, creates tension. And you know, I don’t want to do that, but also I want to stand up and be like, no, no, this is, this is who I am. And one of the great things about the family gathering is that all the all the grands [Tina’s nieces and nephews] were like. “they”, you know, “they!” It was amazing to know that. You know, your generation. It’s part of the vernacular. It’s a part of how you move out in the world. And it’s not a big deal. It’s just not a big deal. And that’s, that’s beautiful and wonderful. And if we can just get people who are generally my age, and in between us to figure it out and to consider that, I think it would go a long way towards, you know, it’s not a big thing, right? It’s not a big deal, but it matters when you hear it correctly. And it matters when you are misgendered.

Emily Goodwin 15:37
So I want to hear about how you met your now wife, Cris, and how are people’s reactions? How are your family’s reactions? And how’s it going now?

Tina 15:52
Well, I met my wife, Cris, online. I had moved back to the east coast from LA and I was getting myself re established in the nation’s capital. I had a job and I was trying to reach out socially for folks, so I got online. And it was a big snow event and I got this message from… So I had seen the profile, I had liked the profile, but I had not gotten up the courage to send a message, because that’s kind of how I roll. I’m kind of shy, unbelievably, I’m shy. It’s true, it really is. I’m totally shy when it comes to meeting women, it was just kind of like “ahhh”, but she sent a message and said, “I hope you don’t regret moving back from LA.” And we just had a, we just chatted, and then pretty quickly after that we moved off of the platform to phone chatting. And then I think within two days, we set up a time to meet and we met in DC for drinks and we had a great time. This was before I had really gotten the haircut. So I was still looking a little rough. I was still my hair was short, but it wasn’t like “dude short.” So I think that I hadn’t quite gotten the look together yet; I was working on it. I think it was a little bit questionable if I was a match in that regard. The more that we talked, we met and the more that we talked and spent time together and from there, took off and it’s been seven years that we’ve been together. It’ll be four years married in October. And it’s great. It’s magical. Every relationship, you know, it’s work, but it’s worth it. It is worth the work to have a partner in life who moves the boat in the same direction as you, and you can be there for each other. And sure, have arguments and disagree, but laugh at each other and figure it out. And you know, just navigate this thing. And it’s pretty special, I’m pretty lucky.

Emily Goodwin 18:45
I love you guys. I’m so glad you found each other.

Tina 18:50
I love you. Oh, family reaction. Um, I would say the first time that I introduced her to family was pretty much almost everybody at one time, which is crazy cuckoo. She met my now past stepsister pretty much first and woo boy. They hit it off and it was really special. And then my mom… and the same day that my mom that Cris was also the first time that my mom had seen me in masculine wear; I was wearing a bow tie. I thought I looked great because we were going to a party. And that was tough because that was a tough reaction, I have to say, but you know, the tension between mom and I I think was something that was hard to introduce Cris to the family because there was this weirdness. But the next day, mom got to meet Cris and talk to Cris a little more because they came over and we had a brunch. And it ended up being a very good thing, and now my mom loves Cris. Mom has the daughter she always wanted in Cris; A girly girl that she always wanted.

Emily Goodwin 20:33
Wow. I am at least glad that now Grandma [Tina’s mom] is very accepting and loves her.

Tina 20:43
Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It has been wonderful to have my relationship with mom grow. It’s always been special and we’ve always been tight, but to be able to have my wife, as a part of the group and have my mom love her just as much, it just means the world. It really does.

Emily Goodwin 21:15
Yeah, I’m so glad. So now we’re going to move in to your opinions on the social change of gender openness and sexuality. So how do you think that these topics have changed over time, based on when you were a teenager and now?

Tina 21:40
Oh, well, I touched on a little bit, and talking about coming out it. It was very binary world. I mean, I think that the gender binary has probably been out there a little bit, but really reaching the mainstream probably in the last 10 years. To have it be discussion to have your pronouns put in your email signature. To be in a classroom setting and everybody introduces themselves. It used to be your name, where you’re from, what did you do this summer? Now, it’s your name, where you’re from what you did this summer, oh, and your pronoun preferences, which is great, it’s perfect. I mean, it is a very positive movement towards having it just be a part of the discussion. It’s just information. “By the way, I don’t like broccoli.” I mean, you know, that kind of thing. So it’s just a great movement. Now, it’s, it’s a struggle for people who are my age, or maybe a little bit younger.

Your generation [generation z] especially, it’s easy. It’s just the way it is, right? It’s like, the world you live in, it has always kind of had this consideration. And now, people who are my peers and things like that the consideration is, it’s a little less positive, because it makes people think and work. One of the things that happens to me often is, “Oh well, I’m sorry, I just can’t use they, it’s grammatically incorrect.” And my response is, “Actually, no, they is grammatically correct, because you use it all the time, you just don’t know it.” So, it’s a struggle because you want to… I love being a part of this change. I’m very proud of the fact that I can walk into a room anywhere and be comfortable enough in myself, in my attire, whether or not I’m trying to be, super suave or just in casual dude attire. That I could just be me. And if somebody has a question, I’m happy to answer questions, I do it a lot. Sometimes, it can be a struggle, but most of the time, it’s, it’s good. I’ve been very happy to see the change. The one thing I would have to say is that I’m sad that it took so long for me to try to find that part, to understand what that part of me was, because it was always there. It was just not recognizing or not having… honestly the vocabulary. You and I were talking about that earlier, about how do you address me? Well, by my name, Tina. You know, that’s a very feminine name. I specifically made a choice not to change that name because I, myself, am comfortable with my identity as Tina. I’ve built that identity with my name. So I don’t have that kind of gender dysphoria, where I can’t not have my name. That’s me. There are plenty of other people in the world who are genderqueer and prefer to not use a name that reminds them of that older, formerly female identified gender self. So, I’m just happy to be here at the party.

Emily Goodwin 26:00
So into my final question for you. What advice would you give to others struggling to come out and be comfortable with who they are?

Tina 26:15
I would say that the thing that can help those who are struggling, is to find an ally. Find an organization, find a YouTube video, find a TED talk. Your tribe is out there. It really is. And it’s just a matter of figuring out how to how to better understand what you need for yourself. Because when you’re in this process, you’re struggling to be, like coming out as gay. For me, the struggle was “it’s not supposed to be this way. I wasn’t raised to be this way.” But I didn’t have really any resources. I couldn’t go to my uncles, because that would get back to my mom and dad. That wasn’t gonna happen, but there was nobody else around me, or nothing around me where I could figure it out. It wasn’t until I got to college, when I was like, “Oh, okay. I see. Well, maybe this is what’s happening.” And so now, people of any age who are struggling with sexuality, or gender, the internet is probably one of the best things and the worst things that can happen. It’s great in that there are resources there and it’s accessible. I’m a big fan of HRC and the TED talk things because there are people who do TED talks, and then you go find out more about them and then that just leads you down this path of “oh, okay, so this is their story? Well, I can relate to that.” And it’s just amazing that these resources are out there. I’m doing pro bono work with the firm I work for right now to help people fill out the paperwork, they need to have their name match their gender identity. So that’s amazing that we could do that. Most of these folks are young, and it’s just amazing to be able to see how we can, in this day and time, see that someone’s gender is accepted and you have mechanisms and things out there that will help them navigate this world. And that’s wonderful. I mean, there are still crimes against trans youth. And there’s still incredible amounts of suicide amongst gay youth and trans youth and there are policies and politics involved, that are making it hard. Well, those are the people who are my age and older, who don’t want to see beyond a binary because it’s unknown, and unknown things scare people and it’s a threat. What we can do now is encourage your generation, your colleagues, your classmates, to be there for somebody. If somebody’s struggling, don’t stay quiet. Say, “Hey, let’s have lunch, let’s go have a coffee.” Help them do research, and help them figure out if they want to talk about it. Sometimes it’s just nice to have coffee with somebody and not have a big deep discussion, you know? And that’s, sometimes that’s the best thing and people just need to be able to know that they have people in their corner, especially when it comes to things that we grew up hearing that might be bad or that it’s different, or it’s not. Different isn’t bad, different is different. There are many more of us in the world, then the world wants to acknowledge. But the world can’t run without all of us, so.

Emily Goodwin 30:52
True that. I like that. “Different isn’t bad, it’s just different.”

Tina 30:59
That’s right.

Emily Goodwin 31:01
I’m going to quote you on that.

Tina 31:04
Awesome.

Emily Goodwin 31:05
Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. It’s been a blast.

Tina 31:11
Thanks for having me, I’m honored.

Emily Goodwin 31:14
Well, thank you!

Tina 31:16
You’re welcome. Bye

Emily Goodwin 31:19
Bye.

Research:
Mark interviews Red, a nonbinary 20 year old about their gender identity. They talk about their personal experiences and give definitions of terms many people outside the LGBTQ+ community are unaware of. This interview helped me to understand just what it means to be nonbinary/genderqueer.

Conlan, Mark Gabrish. “Interview with a Nonbinary Person about Their Identity.” Life Outside The Binary, 9 July 2014, https://lifeoutsidethebinary.com/post/91182016548/interview-with-a-nonbinary-person-about-their.

In this article, the author discusses sexuality in the 80s and how homosexuality was viewed in the church, government, and society as a whole. This article talks about gay marriage and other LGBTQ+ laws and helped me learn more about the time period that Tina grew up in.

kdh5409, Author. “Homosexuality in the 1980s.” Civic Issues Sexuality, 8 Feb. 2019, https://sites.psu.edu/civicissuekatie/2019/02/08/homosexuality-in-the-1980s/.

In this article, Franklynn discusses gender and how gender expression can be influenced by culture. The author talks about what gender exactly means, what being an ally means, and how you can be better educated on the topic. The article explains that gender describes the social and cultural roles assigned to different sexes, rather than sex, which describes our biology. Franklynn also explains that cisgender people need to be better educated and become more familiar with gender-diverse people to better understand what it means to be genderqueer. This article helped me to learn more about gender expression and allowed me to ask better questions in my interview.

Bartol, Franklynn. “My Gender Identity Story and Thoughts on Being a Better Trans Ally.” CampusWell, 4 Nov. 2020, https://www.campuswell.com/gender-identity-trans-ally/.

Overview of Interview Technology and Process:
This interview was recorded over Zoom, as Tina lives in Washington, DC and I live in Harrisonburg, VA. The interview was recorded and the audio file was converted and saved as an mp3 file. I used Otter.ai to transcribe the interview, and then manually edited the transcription to fix grammar mistakes and clarify words and phrases.