Citation:
Interview with Joseph Bofo, Social changes in the Navy over 20 years, HIST 150 Spring 2022, Conducted by Jayson Bofo, March 17th, 2022.

Introduction:
Joseph Bofo served 20 years in the Navy while being on active duty the entire time. During this time from the 1990s to 2017, a lot in the world has changed. He discusses changes in the military related to women and members of the LGBTQ committee entering.  He discussed how the war affected his life as well as those around him. Deployments and things of that nature are common in the Navy, but to deploy to a warzone is extremely rare. 

During his time in, I researched many rule changes and how they affected those in the military as a whole. The Navy was always one of the most obscure to research because they are different than most branches. In this interview, I ask about many things including life in the Navy, as well as the organization as a whole. It is a talk of what has evolved in a good way and what has changed which is not ideal for most people. Most questions asked were opinion-based and can not be based on fact. 

Overview of Social Change Interview:
This post relates greatly to the military, social change, and political interactions as well as the impacts of those involved. This interview covers the period of roughly 1998 to 2017 and talks about many things that relate to the Navy. There are pieces that share answers that can be found in many postings under the Military tag, but for the most part, it is a general consensus for most veterans. During this period, the war in Iraq is spoken about as well as some opinionated questions that sparked because of the war and the impact it had on his life. Many subjects are deeply connected with the history of the world as the Navy had to keep up with current times. Some of the highlights concern the change in the openness and inclusiveness in Navy culture and how traditions have changed with a reaction from a sailor who got to see how they depreciated. Other interviews I have heard concerning war all cover the veterans' opinions and more times than not they all agree on fighting for their people and not the political cause. This can be seen in my father's reaction to Iraq, those who served in Vietnam, and many other veterans who served in any conflict. The interview serves as just a subtle way of seeing a sailor who was not the highest-ranking, but an average person's opinion on how the Navy has changed. It helps to see it from this point of view rather than those at the top because people like my father give true opinions on things that affected all of the Navy and them.

Biography:
My father, Joe, was born on December 17th, 1977 in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. He is an Italian-American and this is clear in the way he acts and his gestures. He enlisted in the Navy when he was 18 and served 20 years while he traveled the world. He served one tour in Iraq and was deployed for most of his military career. He has lived in Italy, Japan, and many cities in America. He has 3 sons and has been married to my mother for over 18 years now. He did not pursue a college degree and is now a civilian contractor for the Department of Defense.

Research:

The interview covers hazing, war, traditions, and inclusiveness including gender and sexual orientation. I spent most of my time researching changes in tradition, as well as the hazing policies that were implemented in the Navy. According to the Department of the Navy, Hazing is defined as 

“any conduct whereby a military member or members, regardless of service or rank, without proper authority causes another military member or members, regardless of service or rank, to suffer or be exposed to any activity which is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful.” There have been multiple incidents in which hazing has happened in the Navy, and the men or women in charge were then charged with hazing; which is illegal in the military. According to my father and other sailors he served with, many hazing stories would now be the reason for a discharge from the military. According to Military.com, the Marine Corps has 90% of all hazing complaints even though it is the smallest branch in the military. This relates because technically the Marines are still a branch under the Navy in terms of funding and in their history. In terms of other things, the war on Iraq was also a big factor in this interview. This war spanned more than 7 years with over 4,400 United States casualties. The United States didn't fully pull out of Iraq until March 20, 2020. 

Interview:
Jayson  0:01  
This is Jayson bofo. And I'm interviewing my father, Joseph bofo, who served in the Navy for 20 years. When did you first join boot camp?  

Joe Bofo  0:10  
I joined boot camp in September of 1996. Right after high school.

Jayson  0:15  
And how was boot camp in your opinion?

Joe Bofo  0:18  
Boot Camp is one of those things that is the longest days of your life but the days roll by quick. You hate it when you're there, but you miss it when you're done.

Jayson  0:32  
Okay, and in your early Navy career, after your schooling and all that, on your deployments and under ways, did you see any hazing? Well, like in the Navy?

Joe Bofo  0:45  
Absolutely. Whenever I first went into the fleet in the Navy, I was stationed in Japan and the crew were all male ships at the time. So the hazing was very alive at the time. During my career, it definitely got kinder, more gentler, maybe so the hazing kind of took a back seat or not a back seat it just went away. The um there started to be repercussions to hazing; and you know, we didn't think that it was worth losing our career over a Frocking (promotion) ceremony or something of that sort.

Jayson  1:42  
Okay, and then whenever you did experience hazing, what are like some examples? Don't be too... you get what I mean. (was cut off and knew he understood the question).

Joe Bofo  1:48  
When you get frocked when you get promoted in the Navy, you get your crows. So you know third class petty officer it's it's one Chevron you know, crow and one chevron and second class is two Chevrons and a crow. And whenever you get so when you make third class every third class and senior gets to punch your arm. And it's supposed to make sure that the crow don't fly off. And you know, as you make rank, the less and less people hit your arm, obviously, but you are now hitting other people's arms, you know, to it's kind of like to wish them well, to congratulate them for making rank as silly as that sounds. But you know, after the Frocking day, you know, your your your left arm is dead, you know, you can't move it because you just got punched 120 times you know, some people I think kind of took it too far like they wrap your arm around a pipe and hit it so there was no give to it. Other people just young lightly tapped it. But you know, nonetheless, it was almost like a um I don't want to say a publicity thing. Like the more you got punched the colder you were. Do you don't I mean, like Yeah.

Jayson  3:20  
Um, so do you feel traditions like this, like changed in the Navy's policy? Because I know you said that, like hazing, they consider those more traditions like?

Joe Bofo  3:30  
Absolutely. So yeah, that that's just one tradition. Yeah, like the shellback initiation's, another one. And when you cross the equator, you become a shell back from a pollywog it definitely got watered down. I mean, whenever we were doing it on an all male ship you kind of got beat down a little bit. Now that there's females on the ship, there are certain things that you can't do, obviously, because it definitely borderlines you know, like sexual type stuff. But it is breaking the tradition of it, you know, as far back as John Paul Jones is, you know, back in the 17 1800s the these traditions have happened and they're all just kind of going away because it borderlines the hazing policy.

Jayson  4:22  
Okay, and throughout your career, how has like the role of women changed?

Joe Bofo  4:28  
Dramatically. Whenever I first went to the fleet, there were females on certain ships that were non combatants, such as the hospital ships, the Oilers. The tenders you know, I said the non combat ships. Whenever I got to my first ship couple years after I was there, they put a few junior officers there was no enlisted yet on on ships and put a few junior officers on board. As kind of like a trial run, I guess. But now I think I don't think there's any ships that are all male. I don't think that there is why I know for a fact, you know, there's women, four star admirals now. Ya know, that would have never happened, you know, early on in my career.

Jayson  5:25  
Okay, and when did you go to Iraq?

Joe Bofo  5:28  
Went to Iraq in 2007 and came back in 2008.

Jayson  5:36  
While you're over there, what was your job?

Joe Bofo  5:37  
I was the electronic warfare officer attached to JCCS one, which was an Army unit, and stands for joint crew composite squadron one. And what we did was kind of kinda IED (Improvised explosive device) . So like remote controlled IEDs that used to blow up with cell phones, key fobs. I used to send out signals to jam those things. But we, I actually augmented the Marines over in the west of in Ramadi, Fallujah, altcar, and them over in that area. And I was with Regimental Combat Team Three seven five, WSS 373, 374, and 372, I believe, but they did four month deployments. So the Marines were like rotating in rotating out you know, so I was the only one that kind of didn't change for the year and three months that I was over there.

Jayson  6:44  
Was it rare to see, like someone in the Navy over there?

Joe Bofo  6:47  
It was absolutely because, you know, we're sailors. Other than like, the special ops guys, the seals, the EOD guys, you know, those type of guys to see like a surface sailor, boots on the ground. Absolutely, It was rare. The Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, again, with the Marines, the only Navy exposure they have are corpsman you know, everyone thought I was just a corpsman whenever they would see me because they'd see that I was in the Navy. There wasn't a lot of us, Navy guys boots on the ground.

Jayson  7:26  
All right, and how was like your life in Iraq?

Joe Bofo  7:30  
Truthfully, it was probably the best of my career. I think that, you know, in the Navy on the ship, you constantly do training. Like every time you get underway, you train you train, you train, when you're on deployment, you train you train you train. But in Iraq, it was like you was in the game. So there was no training, everybody knew what we had to do. Every time every, every time you broke the wire every time you left the base, you know, the possibility was there. So we was definitely on, like, a heightened alert, you know, because I mean, the threat was real. You see, trucks go out that didn't come back. You seen people there that you talked to at lunch, that you didn't have at dinner. It was real war, you know, and you don't see that in the Navy, you know, the you felt part of something way bigger than yourself over there.

Jayson  8:38  
All right, in your opinion. Do you feel that, okay, let me rephrase that. So first question is, why were we sent to Iraq? That's a little late. 

Joe Bofo  8:50  
But why were we sent to Iraq?

Jayson  8:51  
Yeah, Like whenever you went their. 

Joe Bofo  8:55  
Opinon or?

Jayson  8:57  
Give me the political statement, because I'm asking for your opinion in a minute. 

Joe Bofo  8:59  
Political statement is we went to Iraq because Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. When we went into Afghanistan, because 911 Saddam Hussein was supposedly had these weapons of mass destruction that could cause this, you know, apocalyptic times type, you know, these weapons. So the government kind of sold that as the reason why we went in so.

Jayson  9:27  
In your opinion, what do you think you were fighting for?

Joe Bofo  9:31  
We went in, because Bush Jr., George, George Bush. W Bush. I believe he totally had a personal vendetta against his dad or Saddam Hussein because of Operation Desert Storm back in '91 with his dad whenever he sent the soldiers into Kuwait but HW Bush, the old man, he knew better than to go into Iraq. And I believe that W Bush wanted to finish kind of what his dad started. to go get Saddam Hussein, who by no means is a good guy. But you know, we lost we spilled a lot of blood over there over what I feel is a personal vendetta. So it is kind of senseless, looking back.

Jayson  10:28  
So do you feel that, how do I word this, so do you feel that you fighting in Iraq was pointless?

Joe Bofo  10:38  
Loaded question. I believe that the military in general, and I'll bet you you talk to nine vets out of 10, they'll tell you the same thing. Anytime we spilled blood on foreign soil, we owe it to that person. To see it through. Do I believe that we should have done the initial push into Iraq? Probably not. Not to the scale we did either. You know, I mean, we had a bunch of resources over there a lot of money spent. So no, I don't believe that we should have done the initial push. But again, once it costed a life, then I believe that we had to see it through at that point.

Jayson  11:31  
And this changes the subject a little. But besides well including Iraq to but all your deployments in general under ways and all that how did that affect your family life?

Joe Bofo  11:48  
Kind of it was an absentee father. I felt I think most vets would agree with that. Ya know, you're gone for a lot of pivotal times. So when your here, a lot of, you try to make up you're trying to compensate for the time that you wasn't here. So I think a lot of people would question how we parent because you're trying to right the wrongs and let's face reality, it's not normal for a dad not to be there for Christmas or your birthday or you know, graduations. It's just not normal. So whenever you do come back, you're less likely to, you're more likely to, try to buy the affection; If that makes any sense. You're more likely to or you're more likely to overlook certain things. You know that a normal parent would probably punish the kid, you know? But you're more likely to overlook that stuff because again, you're trying to compensate, you're trying to right that wrong.

Jayson  13:06  
Okay. Throughout the course of your career, the LGBT community how did it change on like the openness?

Joe Bofo  13:17  
Well, I came in under the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy. 

Jayson  13:19  
What is that?

Joe Bofo  13:21  
 Don't Ask Don't Tell policy is if he was gay, trans, anything but a straight person. You couldn't speak of it. It was just taboo. If you spoke of it you got discharged, there was this big thing about gays being in the military. You know, and as my career went on, it became more, it was accepted but not spoke about. Like we knew it was there, and we accepted it was there but it still wasn't, people weren't able to come out of the closet and be who they were. And then that brings us to today where the Navy will or the you know the military in general will pay for your you know, your surgery to your tran, you know what I mean? So, it definitely went from a we don't talk about our you know, it's not tolerated, to it's tolerated but we don't talk about it to total acceptance now and

Jayson  14:34  
Okay, and whenever I googled the boot camp change in the Navy, you know, it went from eight weeks to ten weeks, it said the biggest reason for that was to learn more about gender equality, inclusiveness and things of that nature. 

Joe Bofo  14:48  
Okay.

Jayson  14:48  
 What is your opinion on why they added time? Like why do you think they added time?

Joe Bofo  14:53  
Absolutely. So they added time because

Jayson  14:59  
Go ahead bro let the opinion go.

Joe Bofo  15:00  
This, because when I was, in bootcamp, we started the morning at five in the morning, we got up, you got 15 minutes to what we called Pump and dump, to go go to the bathroom, shave, you know, get yourself ready you had 15 minutes. At 530, the dorm or you know, your barracks better be on point, everybody was lined up in the street, ready to go march to chow. You get to breakfast, you know, you had a 15 minute breakfast. And we was back at the barracks, you know, it was very, it was very intensive. It was very structured, it was, there was a lot of stuff encompassed in that, you know, we start the day at five in the morning and ended at lights out, you know, I mean, we would stop exercising at 9:30, that would give us, again, 15 minutes per section. There was two sections, to go take a shower, and get in bed by 10 o'clock, lights out. So it's a long day five in the morning till 10 At night, right? I believe that this generation it's not as willing to go through that. So they kind of are trying to turn into a nine to five, but they got to still fit the same amount of training in. So the the days start a little bit later, like I believe now they start at seven. And you know, they end after dinnertime. But again, they still got to fit that same amount of training in there, you know, to hit the fleet. I do believe times have changed. So of course, you got to talk about, because boot camp takes you through everything from balancing a checkbook, to put out fires on a ship, to line handling, you know what I mean? So it does everything that you have to do as a young adult. They probably do emphasize more now on the LBGTQ and acceptance and how to deal with and you know, that proper thing, but I don't think it has anything to do with. That's the reason why boot camp change. I just don't think that today's recruit is willing to do the 16 hour work days, so they do 10 hour work days, but they need 16 hours of training. So it just carries over for more time.

Jayson  17:41  
Okay. Um considering all the changes like, here let me ask this question first, when you retired, what were the biggest factors in like, deciding retirement? Because if I'm not mistaken, you didn't have to retire when you're not right?

Joe Bofo  17:55  
No, I did not. The Navy stopped being fun.

Jayson  18:01  
And was that due to like traditions and all that stuff or would you have stayed?

Joe Bofo  18:04  
And if you were to talk to anybody, you know, you'll hear the same thing. You know, the Navy, the Army, the Marine Corps, the whatever changed in my time, the Navy is constantly evolving. Ya know, and it went from a branch of the military to where it's now, almost like a they're trying to go like corporate America, you know, and that is not at all what the military is, period. It's when you go out to sea, your with those same 250 People 24 hours a day, for six months. There's no job here in America that, that does that. So it's more than a job. Do you get what I'm saying? But now the military is trying to turn it into a job. And, you know, home life becomes a factor. And people's morale is a big factor now. It was real simple, whenever I was in, you just shut up and you do it. You know what I mean, you don't got to agree with it, you just did it. But towards the end of my career, you know, you get these people that, you know, bitch and moan about sweeping, you know, like, this is stupid. Why are we sweeping this for six hours, you know, the same floor for six hours? When I was young, you didn't ask you just did you know if that's what the your leader told you to do? Guess what? That's where Joe Bofo went, you know, you would shine that same brass box for countless hours a week, which absolutely in hindsight, it looks stupid. But that's what you did. But now, they're, you know, you got people questioning leadership. You know, and I'm from a military that you never questioned your leadership. You just did it. And then Is it right or wrong? I guess that's all subjective. You know, it's all depends on how you look at it. It stopped being fun. It was, you had, the ranks were blurred. The command no longer looked out for their sailors, big Navy stopped looking out for their sailors. After about 15 years, I was ready to punch the clock. So it was just a matter of getting to twenty to retire.

Jayson  20:29  
So what do you think considering, like all the changes that we're talking about? Say you're 18 19, whatever. Would you go back to boot camp and start at like...

Joe Bofo  20:42  
Would I do it all again right now?

Jayson  20:43  
Yes, knowing all the experiences, knowing how it's changed, and all that would you?

Joe Bofo  20:49  
No.

Jayson  20:50  
Why not? 

Joe Bofo  20:53  
I don't agree with a lot of the changes. But again, you know, it's if you have something for so long, right. Kool Aid. If your first experience with Kool Aid, was sugar free? You would think that was just Kool Aid, right?

Jayson  21:19  
Yea.

Joe Bofo  21:19  
But if you grew up drinking kool aid with sugar in it, and then you get handed, sugar free Kool Aid, it's just different. You know what I mean? And whether you love it, or you hate it, that's it's all obviously preference. I know what the Navy was. And I don't agree with where the Navy went. So to do it all over again, no, I would not at all do it. The pros of it, I mean, there's a lot of things and again, you ask any vet, they'll tell you, you know, the things you get to do. The,  the Brotherhood or you know, this, the family atmosphere on a ship because again, those 250 Guys your eat, sleep, shit with for, you know, six weeks or six months, eight months, 10 months, you know what I mean? Those are your guys, those are your peoples. So, it's not like that now its not like that, you know, the command will screw their people, you know it used to be the chain of command will take care of their, their people. There was a lot of times in my career where my decisions were questionable at best, and I probably should have been busted down in rank, or, you know what we call Captain Mast? Probably a lot of times, I probably should have been Masted. But the, my leadership stopped it from getting to that point. And that's what it was. They handled it. It's not to say that I got off scot free. Please don't think that. But it didn't affect my career in the long run. Now those same things. You'd go to the captain, because leadership is afraid of getting hemmed up. You know, last thing you want to be is the senior man with a secret. You know what I mean, if you show up late for curfew, now back in the day, we would show up late and it would we would have to deal with the chief in the morning. Do you know what I mean? And the chief might say look, you're not going out the next few days kind of like mom and dad you know grounding and your whatnot. But nowadays, the chiefs don't want to do that. Because if the captain finds out that you know Seaman Bofo came in late. And Chief whoever knew about it. So now the captain's taking chief and Seaman Bofo to the captain's mast, you know, and are you willing to throw your career out for your people? And I think that's what got lost, you know what I mean? A lot of leadership nowadays is not willing to take up for their peoples to take up for their junior.

Jayson  24:21  
Okay, and pretty sure it's about my last question, the 20 years you did in the Navy. So I know it impacted your life because Sure. 20 years is a long, long time. But at the same time, would you consider that how do I put this for your future, are there there's definitely habits and things that you can't grow out of. But how it molded you as a person? Do you think that the Navy could have done a better job? If that makes sense? Like do you feel they did a good job molding you into the person you are and that it makes you like a successful or do you think they kind of set you up for Failure. 

Joe Bofo  25:01  
Sure . But I think again, going back to what you had asked earlier, I think things have changed. If I didn't use the word sir or ma'am, back in the 90s I get my ass drilled. Do you get what I'm saying? Today? They can't do that. So, how the Navy, what it produced, you know, 25 years ago, is not the same person that it produced today. Do you know what I mean, I am very happy with what it produced for me. And if you look at most people that came in, in the 90s, you know, I don't say everybody that it's cookie cutter, but it's very similar. Do you know what I mean the people today that are coming out of boot camp aren't molded the same way because they can't go about molding them the same way. In boot camp, you can't, today's boot camp, you can't single out an individual if they screw up. You know what I mean? Or let me rephrase that. You can't come down on that individual, or you can't make it hurt. Do you know what I mean  to where you don't want to do that shit again. You know what I mean? Nowadays, it's you know, a talking to, it's mom or dad. It's back in the day. Mom, dad used to take the belt to my ass. You can't do that nowadays. Because it's child abuse do you get what I mean. 

Jayson  26:32  
Okay. 

Joe Bofo  26:33  
So yeah, it's the same concept. Same, same thing.

Jayson  26:36  
All right. Thank you for the interview.

Technology:
I used my phone to record this interview in person. I had to go through a few extra steps in making the audio an mp3, but nothing too bad. When it came to editing it took me roughly 2ish hours, highly due to the quality not being the best and the way me and my father talk. The automated transcription did a pretty good job in terms of getting most of the interview transcriped with no issues, but I had to fix the rest of it.

Bibliography:

Brown, Daniel. “Navy Officer Charged with Hazing after Forcing Sailor to Carry around Charlie Brown Figurine.” Business Insider, Business Insider, 18 Apr. 2017, https://www.businessinsider.com/navy-officer-charged-with-hazing-after-forcing-sailor-carry-around-charlie-brown-figurine-2017-4.

Department of the Navy Policy on Hazing. Department of the Navy, 15 July 2005, https://irp.fas.org/doddir/navy/secnavinst/1610_2a.pdf.

Seck, Hope Hodge. “Nearly 90% of Military Hazing Complaints Come from the Marine Corps, Data Shows.” Military.com, 7 Feb. 2021, https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/02/07/nearly-90-of-military-hazing-complaints-come-marine-corps-data-shows.html.

“The Iraq War.” Council on Foreign Relations, Council on Foreign Relations, https://www.cfr.org/timeline/iraq-war#:~:text=After%20more%20than%20seven%20years,its%20combat%20mission%20in%20Iraq.

Choices:

I didn’t have to use any brackets because everything my father talked about he explained right after which made my job a little easier. As far as transcription goes, I pretty much followed most of the advice on the pages, the otter.ai transcription was my guide and I followed it as much as I could because it made it easier. I did decide to let my father’s um’s go unrecorded because it is kind of like a tick for him and I did not want to point it out as much. For the vernacular I let it go as we speak because I wanted him to feel comfortable because this was not supposed to be a formal interview but rather more of an informal talk.

Follow up: