Overview to Social Change Interview
This interview is one with my granduncle, RB, born on __________. This means he grew up along side the Vietnam war (1954-1975). The Vietnam War arose in the wake of WWII as part of the Cold War.

Unlike World War II, the Vietnam War found a much more divided US public as time went on.  Young people, in particular, began to question the role the US was playing in Vietnam. Growing up with these sentiments floating around family dinner tables and public spaces, RB had developed a plethora of opinions on the war, its causes, and if he thought it was just by the time he was 18.

He applied for conscientious objector status before he was given a draft card. RB applied and was granted that status. Interestingly,  that status was very hard to achieve.

In particular, one would have even less luck if they did not have religious objections to war. RB had none. He applied, and was granted, this status solely due to ethical or moral objections.

In this interview I learned a good amount him and the world he grew up in. He went through this process around the same age as many of those who take this class. With a current war ongoing, also with varying and demanding public opinion, how might we learn from the past and make sure that we make decisions that will stand the test of time?

Citation: Becoming a Conscientious Objector during the Vietnam War with RB, History 150H Spring 2022, Conducted by Joshua Gunn, March 17, 2022

Biography: My grand-uncle (RB), a white husband and grandfather, was born in Shawano, WI on (insert birthday). Growing up in the 1960s, he came of age durint the Vietnam War. Becoming fully aware of the war in high school, he realized he would be placed in the draft lottery when he turned 18 in 1972.  Proactively against this, he applied to achieve contentious objector (CO) status for ethical or moral reasons. At that time, the draft board required a personal testimony, a testimony from a witness and an essay detailing why one should not be drafted. He was granted that status. COs, in turn for not being drafted, were required to do work “of national importance” for the US government. Due to his draft number being so high, which he received after he already was a declared CO, he was never required to do such work. RB then went on to become a student counselor at a boarding school and is currently retired with his wife in La Crosse, WI.

Interview Context: This interview was conducted on March 17th, 2022 over Zoom. For the recording, we used the Zoom recording feature and the microphones through headphones on laptops. Both interview and interviewee were sitting in our respective houses: myself in Richmond, VA and RB in WI.

Research: The Vietnam War lasted from 1954 to 1975. At first the US sent “advisors” to Vietnam who worked covertly–not known to the broader US public. By 1965, the US was fully involved in the war.  In the aftermath of WWII, the US had signed the Truman Containment Doctrine (1947) which said the US had to become involved in other country’s affairs if they were moving towards communism. In Vietnam, Ho Chi Minh fought against French imperialism and later US imperialism (Vietnam had been colonized by France) and advocated for communism as a way to dismiss with the legacy of colonial inequalities. The US feared the rise of the USSR and global communism so sent many soldiers and materials over to Vietnam to fight. This ended in many deaths, of soldiers and innocent Vietnamese.  Some of the atrocities of the war were televised in the US, like the massacre of civilians at My Lai, and many protested the war. Those that were against the war had the option to file for Conscientious Objector (CO) status.

Due to the 1940 Selective Service and Training Act, the Civilian Public Service (CPS) program was founded. This allowed conscientious objectors to apply and then work, in turn for the US government, in areas “of national importance.” This was primarily used by COs from religious minorities such as Quakers and Mennonites. This allowed many to avoid joining the armed services or going to jail. Becoming a CO, specifically during The Vietnam War, was a hard status to achieve, even for those that identified as religiously objecting. In total, 171,000 people were granted CO status. This made those that tried to object for moral or ethical reasons almost impossible. My grand-uncle is one of those few.

Interview Transcript: 

JG 0:02
All right, it should be recording. All right. So just to start, I would like to know, what were your emotions and feelings [refering to the Vietnam War]? What were from what I understand you grew up with the Vietnam War? And I want to know, maybe you have a first experience with it. Or maybe you remember when you were first introduced to it?

RB 0:32
Sure, given that oh, let’s see. I have to remember, think US involvement started Mid 50s. 55? started, you know, kind of with just money, armaments, advisors and things. You know I was two years old.

JG 0:51
Yes.

RB 0:52
I don’t remember exactly when I became aware of the war, my earliest memories of being aware of the war involved, nightly newscasts. There was, well, it was a pattern of [changed train of thought] they always denounced the count of American soldiers killed. And, you know, shots of flying draped coffins and things. I just remember that nightly announcement of how many American soldiers have been killed in the war. And it was just kind of a running total. Plus, there were a lot of scenes in the war and reporting on the war and what was happening and things. Very much like we’re seeing now on the news with Ukraine. I’m sure that was happening throughout my childhood.

RB 2:01
But I would say I probably became really aware of it in middle school times, really started thinking about it in high school, when I kind of, would have developed the critical thinking skills to think about the war and what it was about what it meant. We grew up in a very small town: Shawano, Wisconsin. Not a lot of activists and protests, but we have a rather, I could say so, intellectual class, had a lot of bright kids in my class, we hung out, we talked a lot about it. And, of course, most of the sentiment was anti war. I missed a lot of the anti war protests that were going on around the country and, and even in the state of Wisconsin, particularly Madison. By the time I got to school in Madison, that things that pretty much ended. So I missed all of that activism. But you know, through news coverage, fair amount of talking amongst my friendship group, we [pause] were very aware of the war and what was going on. That answer your question?

JG 3:36
Yes.

RB 3:37
Okay.

JG 3:39
Do you as you kind of grew up with it?do you? Kind of I know that, and we’ve talked about you becoming a conscientious objector. Right. Um, do you have any memory or in here you can discuss kind of the reasons why you decided to become a conscientious objector. Do you have like a memory or you had mentioned earlier that you had decided and you had already gone through the process before you even got your draft card. So clearly, it was on your mind growing up. Do you [RB mhms] want to talk about that?

RB 4:25
Well, you always get it at that time. You got your draft card, automatic, you know, when you turn 18. You got your draft card. But I think my thought process began you know, oh, probably what 16/17 I think [pauses] I was very caught up in the anti war feeling. I also think [pause + glitch in zoom]. It was this singular war, that it didn’t seem to make sense to me why we were there and fighting it. It didn’t seem to serve a larger purpose, even though reportidly it was to stop the spread of communism through Indochina, the area there. And it just dragged down and so many people had died. And there was no resolution. And we didn’t seem to be doing what we said we were supposed to be doing. And again, a lot of us were questioning even those purposes.

RB 5:53
So I think the formulation of those ideas probably came by when I was 16/17/18. In truth, and so I thought about conscientious objection. And I researched it and decided to make the choice to do that. Even though I probably didn’t have to, because as you know, you and I spoke before. Mine was the last draft class in the United States. My number, there was a lottery for the draft. You got a number, and drafts were based on those with number one, we’re draft first and on and on that mine was so high. I was not going to be drafted.

JG 6:52
Okay

RB 6:52
It was just practically that would that would have been astounding if I had been but I decided was important to make a statement anyway. So that’s why I proceeded with filing for conscientious objector status. In the intervening years, I realize I’m not necessarily a pacifist. I realized there’s bad actors in the world and military actions are necessary to protect people. As we’re witnessing now

JG 7:33
Yeah [interjecting]

RB 7:34
In Ukraine with Russia. I think that’s Ukraine is in the position of having to defend itself in I’m not sure I would object if the US got involved, although I really, really understand that we’re trying to avoid nuclear war.

JG 7:57
Yes.

RB 7:58
Which is why we’re not entering and I think that’s smart. But the point is, I think there’s justifiable action and not justifiable action. I didn’t view the Vietnam War as justifiable. Or at the time I was turning 18.

JG 8:18
Very good. That was really nice. Then following that, just kind of talking about that decision. You’ve mentioned kind of your peers. What was your family’s reaction? I know a lot of your family and I know and I been lucky enough to meet your mother. What was their reaction?

RB 8:45
Well, my mom was very supportive of it. She would have been supportive with any decision I had made on that. My dad and I never talked about so I I cannot tell you how he felt. He was a World War II veteran. The only thing he ever said about World War II was he’d buy a gun and put it on the wall and watch it rest because he never wanted to see one again.

JG 9:19
[suprised] Oh

RB 9:20
And so I think his experiences in World War II were obviously not positive. I don’t know how they could have been. But he and I never ever had [changing train of thought] Now, he was never negative about it, and never stepped in to try and stop me from doing so. But I have no idea.

JG 9:45
And revolving around that theme. Um, do you have any negative you said a lot of your peers and clearly your family had were supportive of you. Did you have any negative reactions to it? Maybe from [interject from RB and unintelligible sounds] street even?

RB 10:07
No, I don’t think it was common knowledge. Most of my friends were highly supportive. Like I said, I had many friends, my peer group was largely anti war at that point in time anyway, but did have two friends, both of whom enlisted, who I never talked to, again, they were aware of it. And they were very much opposed to that action. And that just kind of ended our friendships.

JG 10:45
Interesting.

RB 10:47
I know.

JG 10:48
Now, for they’re getting kind of into the process and the actual steps. Do you mind describing for me the steps you took to receive that status? Sure, just kind of troubling to find on the internet, because it was so hard for those that [RB interjects “sure”] weren’t religious to get it.

RB 11:08
Yeah. Um, no, it [searches for the words]. And I made an effort to find my statement that I wrote, I can’t find it. So, but you applied for conscientious objector status. And if I remember correctly, at that point in time, there were kind of two categories or levels. One was a conscientious objector who would serve in the military wear the uniform, but would not participate in combat.

JG 11:46
Okay.

RB 11:47
And there was a movie recently that kind of portrayed a young man who had done that, trying to remember the name, but I can’t. And the other one was level where you would not wear the uniform, but you would do an alternative service somehow. And that could have been anything from working in a VA hospital to any number of different things for government agencies. But you would put time in, equal to your service in the army doing alternative service. And that’s the level that I went for.

JG 12:34
Okay.

RB 12:36
And that just involved applying to my local draft board. And I needed to prepare a statement. I needed to testify and provide a witness for supportive testimony.

JG 12:56
And if you don’t mind me asking, do you remember who that witness was?

RB 13:01
Yeah, Armand. What was Armand’s last name? I just blanked, I’m sorry. [interjection from JG] He was a man that I had worked for. As a, he was a camp director at a camp that I had worked for. For a couple of summers, and he and I were just very, very good friends. He knew me very well but was very supportive. And so he filled in that role.

JG 13:34
Very Nice. Do you we’ve talked about this and you’ve described a little bit but for the interview, do remember when you’ve received you’ve received that status you’ve received [stuggles to word correctly] you found out that you had been granted countries that objective status

RB 13:52
and this okay, this is a guess. Again, I was looking for the paperwork and i- i swear we had saved all that but I can’t find it I would have been a Carroll College as a freshman. So I believe it was the summer of ’76 I would have turned 18 in 75. It could have been the summer of 75. It doesn’t take too long. Now, once you apply so the draft board meets and they make their decision: yes or no. I think it was like August/September of my [changes train of thought] it’s got to be 75 because I was 18.

JG 14:53
All right and [stuggles to find what to ask next] Do I kind of just

RB 15:03
[interupting] wait, wait a minute, wait a minute, I gotta figure that- that’s not right. I’m way ahead, I was much older in 75. So? No, it is. It’s, it’s going to be August or September of 72. [continue to think] Sorry about that, just trying to just trying to do the math.

JG 15:41
And following that, you found out that you were granted the status. Um, and then I would love to hear about the process. Because I know you personally it led to you becoming a counselor. Just kind of the general question of what came out of that status, because I know that you did have to go and do alternate service.

RB 16:12
Well, and yeah, I know, Nancy [my grandmother, RB’s sister] has that impression, but I never had to do all kinds of service, because I was never drafted.

JG 16:25
[stunned] Wow.

RB 16:28
If I had been drafted, then they wouldn’t had to have gone to do alternate service. But like I said, my draft number was so high. It

JG 16:40
[tries to help] didn’t affect

RB 16:42
it. It didn’t. I just, I felt like I wanted to make a statement. And that’s why I went ahead with I could have just stopped the whole process, actually, and not gone through with it. But I went ahead and finished out the process. But because I wasn’t drafted, I didn’t need to do alternate service.

JG 17:05
Interesting.

RB 17:07
Yeah.

JG 17:08
Especially since that has been, it’d be a fun little thing to go back and tell my dad who definitely has portrayed it as that in that way [refering to his life and portions being alternate service].

RB 17:18
Oh, no. I, you know, but I’ve always been, I’ve always been involved in kind of social service types of activities. That’s always been kind of just a particular bent of mine, but it’s not particularly related to the conscientious objector status.

JG 17:49
Understandable.

RB 17:50
Okay.

JG 17:53
Do you have a moment or story that you remember when you found out that it was coming to an end that the Vietnam War was [changes train of thought] we were pulling our troops and it was gonna kind of be the end?

RB 18:14
Yes. I was. I think I told you the story of the day, we got our draft numbers, which was, would have been in 71. And I had a really good friend who got number two and fainted. We were all in the group. We just were in the common room in the dorm and watching it on TV. And then Nixon signed the Paris Agreement in 73. And that began the drawdown. And I just really remember everybody being exceptionally relieved. Whether you were a supporter of the war or not. The relief was palpable. Because we were just losing so many soldiers and all I remember is that feeling of relief: it’s done. There was an ambiguous feeling because nobody really would say, “Gee, did we win did we lose?” then we just decided, okay. We put enough lives and money into this. We’re going to get out of here. I think everyone was just thankful it was going to be done. I think I just didn’t start for a couple of years. One of the things I didn’t like about the protests and the anti war movement was how our soldiers were treated. They were treated, sectionally negatively. Name calling, you know, verbal abuse, subjected to all sorts of ridicule and in hate, like, you know, similar to what we see going on in other regions now. I was never really, really comfortable with that. And it took a few years after the end of the war for that perception to change that: okay, It’s not about our soldiers or soldiers, we’re doing their job.

JG 20:51
Yes

RB 20:52
What they were being told to do. And they were not to be the focus of people’s wrath. But, you know, that took a long time. So there were a lot of real mixed emotions in that one, you know, really glad the war was done. Really feeling poorly, and how the soldiers coming home were being treated. So [pause] those are the things, those are the things that stand out.

JG 21:32
Yeah, that’s very helpful, especially now as we enter this second Ukraine, Russia, war, that seems to be not exactly the same, but very similar in a lot of contexts. Kind of going off of that, um, what do you say? Like, what would you say, as going through these experiences and growing up during the Vietnam War, to those that are scared of a possible next war like event possible Cold War like event? Or being drafted? Which is quite far away at the moment. But

RB 22:27
[Interjecting] Yeah

JG 22:27
Not impossible

RB 22:30
Not, I think a lot of things really have to go drastically wrong for that to come back.I see them as really different settings. That’s a really good question. The things and, this is from a long term perspective, I didn’t have this way back then. But there was so much anti communist rhetoric in the United States at the time of the Vietnam War, even even when I was growing up and becoming aware of it. So there was there’s this fear of the spread of communism, which is one of the mainstays for the US having gotten involved in Vietnam.

RB 23:30
True or not. Right now, I don’t know if it’s a perspective of me being older now, Josh, but the threat now seems to be the threat to democracies and the existence of democracy. We have the threat within our own country, which is strange.

JG 24:01
Yes.

RB 24:04
Not something I completely understand although it’s so obvious. So we’re watching, you know, we’re watching a country get invaded, just as South Vietnam was invaded by North Vietnam. In order to have a change of government, yes. And kinda, I think, another parallel, if I’m remembering right, North Vietnam, wanting to unify the whole country and so that’s, we’re getting same arguments from totalitarians. Somehow or another, this one feels like we’ve got one megalomaniac in charge who, who is, in my view, committing war crimes which would justify the defending of Ukraine. What wasn’t that, I know, I don’t know this for sure. I do not remember, during the Vietnam era, the threat of new killer weapons being used mainly because the only active combatants who had nuclear weapons would have been the US. And they weren’t about to use nuclear weapons. Now, I think our caution is based upon the fact that we have someone appears willing to do whatever he can do in order to advance and take over Ukraine possibly might use nuclear weapons. So I understand that hesitancy. I don’t know about you, but I find this heartbreaking to watch what’s happening to Ukraine and understanding the difficulty of the rest of Europe and the United States not coming in stronger to help defend them. There’s not a good answer here, but I sure understand the desire to avoid a nuclear war.

JG 26:28
Yes.

RB 26:29
So I, I got firefield. There. I’m not sure I got to your question.

JG 26:33
You, sorry. [realizes he isn’t done]

RB 26:36
If this. Okay. [decides to finish]

JG 26:39
Um, no, you. Continue? Sorry. [fumbling continue]

RB 26:44
No, I’m just gonna say, you know, I do think that, you know, if we became involved militarily, it would escalate.

RB 26:54
I don’t know where that would go. You know, you don’t know what China’s going to do. You do know what Europe and NATO will do. But at that point. Right now, our army is built of volunteers. I think we have a fully manned military force. But the Vietnam war went on for years, and years and years and so the the military needed a source of soldiers so there was the draft. I would imagine that if that happened, now you might see a draft but it would be only in a long drawn out war.

JG 27:48
It would take a few years before we [cut off]

RB 27:50
[interjecting] Yes, I think so. That would be my impression.

JG 27:54
I completely agree with the way I view it is speaking with you after speaking with you on the Vietnam War, there is seems to be a more clear cut line of what are your beliefs and with the Vietnam War. There seems to be a more clear cut line. What are your beliefs? Okay, that’s your stance on the Vietnam War. And with Ukraine there’s a lot of worry. Ukraine and Russia there’s a lot of factors and different things that go into it that there’s less of a “I’m against it” or “I’m for it” thing.

RB 28:35
I agree with you.

JG 28:39
Then I think we are about done.

RB 28:44
Wow Okay.

JG 28:45
Thank you. And I’m gonna start recording.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Commentary and Follow Up: Despite it being recorded on zoom, the audio turned out seemingly fine. There were a few glitches in the audio (noted in the transcript) but those were few and far between. Overall, I believe it went very well. I enjoyed his ties to Ukraine and Russia, showing how history is always relevant. RB incorrectly said a New Years and dates, I have corrected and put notes in the transcript for such. Following the interview, I asked him what he thought of the whole experience and the process of becoming a CO. He responded with it wasn’t that bad, but that the essay was testing and hard to write, especially due to his content lacking any religious backing. I found his interview very out of the normal and I learned a lot about my grand-uncle.

Citations: 

“Alternative Service: Conscientious Objectors and Civilian Public Service in World War II: The National WWII Museum: New Orleans.” The National WWII Museum | New Orleans, 16 Oct. 2020, https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/conscientious-objectors-civilian-public-service

Hess, Gary R. Vietnam : Explaining America’s Lost War. 2nd ed., John Wiley & Sons, Incorporated, 2015.

Pov. “Background: Soldiers at War: Soldiers of Conscience: POV: PBS.” POV, 23 Jan. 2008, http://archive.pov.org/soldiersofconscience/background/