Interview with David, History 150 Honors Spring 2021, Conducted by Declan Downey, March 24th, 2021.

Introduction to Interview

In the summer of 2020, BLM protests took the main stage. This was due to recent murder of innocent black U.S. citizens at the hands of certain police officers, as well as years of social injustice and oppression. The oppressors are those in the majority, which in this case, refers to white people. The time was about reform for systems across the country, such as the police system and general business practices, as well as the education about and celebration of Black culture.

The process of fighting for equality is a long one and will be going on for years to come. One of the main fights in this movement is the education of those who do not understand the hardships the black community has been forced to endure, and how to honorably make reparations for those hardships. This interview outlines racist practices such as Redlining, which is a way to keep black people from purchasing homes in a certain area, as well as White Flight, or the mass movement of white people to the suburbs after many black people moved to urban neighborhoods. Both are obviously racist practices and are only examples of both the systems that need reform and widespread racism that needs to be changed.

This interview opens a dialogue about how a white person can appropriately affect change during this movement and find their role. It mainly discusses choosing to openly learn about the past from a new point of view, as well as changing preset biases.

Biography

David is the C.E.O. of IDA, also known as the International Downtown Association. He has grown up in and around cities his entire life, and has watched them grow and change over the years. He is an expert on urban development and the culture within different cities throughout the United States, as well as the rest of the world.

David has also grown up in Michigan, in a well off white family. He himself describes his life as “privileged.” Yet throughout his life he has found a way to pay attention to the social justice movements and educate himself on just what it means to grow up as a different race in today’s United States. Recently, with the large number of focus being put of racial justice, David took it upon himself to become an even more educated member of the community, and to help provide that education to the younger people who will grow up and determine the course of the nation.

His point of view on this subject is from the eyes of a white male growing up and living in the United States’ reconciliation and education regarding social and racial injustice. He often teaches other people day to day to educate themselves regarding this subject, in order to create a better world.

Transcription

Declan Downey 0:01
All right, and we are recording. So I’m here with David. He’s CEO of the International downtown Association. And if you want to say hello,

David 0:13
hi, how you doing?

Declan Downey 0:14
Good, how are you?

David 0:15
Good.

Declan Downey 0:17
So today, I would just like to have a conversation about social change, both with how you have how you feel your role is in it as a white male, and then also, how you see it affect cities, because that is where your career is centered.

David 0:41
Sounds good.

Declan Downey 0:42
Alright. So I guess first question would be, can you tell me a little bit about how growing up as a white Catholic male has kind of shaped your views when it comes to social change?

David 0:58
Sure, I guess first, you know, when I was very young, you know, clearly grew up in or grew up with privilege, grew up Catholic with Catholic beliefs, went to private Catholic school. And while we had some diversity within our classroom, I can look back now and then clearly understand that it was not, you know, truly a diverse environment, it was a socio-economic condition that really made it made us more homogenous than anything else. And, you know, when you’re when you’re Christian, and when you’re white, and when you’re growing up in the suburbs, you know, I can look back now and say everything was very conservative. And I would say, current conservative economic views, as well as social views. We lived outside of urban centers, where I do a lot of my work now, and was part of that generation who grew up after the flight of many white people to what was perceived as a better way of life or as new opportunity[The White Flight, as defined by Marriam Webster Dictionary, was the “departure of whites from places (such as urban neighborhoods or schools) increasingly or predominantly populated by minorities. The White Flight happened during the mid 1900s, in response to The Great Migration. The Great Migration was the large-scale migration of Black Americans form the rural south to urban areas. The White Flight is regarded as a racist event because it demonstrated how white people did not want to live near black people]. After World War Two, they really open suburban lifestyle as something that was viewed as being, you know, better than the congested urban center. And largely, that was a white experience. So yes, I grew up really believing that normal was suburban, white, conservative, and city centers were challenged lower socio-economics, and a disadvantaged lifestyle.

Declan Downey 3:03
Okay, and how would you say, that experience growing up has shaped who you are? How would you say that that experience has factored into more recent events with social change, and the new movements that are going on today? And your opinions on those movements and your viewpoints on those movements?

David 3:28
Really big question. I think for me, in a lot of ways, I was fortunate because I became very interested professionally in architecture, urban design, and ultimately communities, and that being very urban community, so I just fell in love with cities. And so becoming more involved in cities and just really enjoying the, the energy and the diversity of urban centers and cities and all of the dynamics of everyone involved in community that I say I was fortunate because just out of professional and personal interest, I became engaged in a much broader kind of environment. Having said that, you know, looking at the, I’ll say, racial injustice, and the the events that unfolded after George Floyd was killed, really brought that forward, even more so to recognize that as much as I appreciated diversity and as much as I appreciated, the dynamics have a full spectrum of community, meaning the various socio-economic levels, even still, later in my life didn’t have as deep and appreciation As I should have had as to the the conflict and the injustice that really existed, so So yeah, it’s it’s it’s continued to be a deeply important and evolving experience and be even continuing to learn more each and every day.

 

Declan Downey 5:23
And that kind of leads me into my next question. You can use the events after George Floyd. But if there’s another time, you can also use that basically, is there can you take me through an instance where you’ve witnessed the effects of racial, and social change, specifically in or in a city you either live in or have witnessed?

 

David 5:48
So many things that I can recall, I remember being in school, and meaning college. And I remember that in our, in our school of architecture, there were not many, though there were some people of color, who were also students. And I was involved in our Student Association, the American Institute of Architects student chapter. And by being involved in leadership, I remember one day having conversation with two of my fellow classmates, both of whom were black. And I can’t recall how we got to the conversation. But it was a very private one, where I realized that they felt as though they were treated differently. And I said, “Really, I don’t notice that. “And we had a conversation about it. And I think that’s a little bit of, you know, what I can reflect them with the width, the social injustice movements that came out in earnest, this past June, which is, there’s always been this huge injustice. And there’s always been this kind of huge gap in what is the the experience of minority community, versus the perception of the experience by largely the US white community. And so, you know, when we grow up in kind of the idea of when we grew up learning about communities, and we hear about things like redlining was a practice where in minorities and minority neighborhoods could not get mortgages and access to real estate and rental properties of any kind [redlining, as described before, was the ‘illegal discriminatory practice” in which mortgage and insurance was denied to people because of race. The term originates from the idea that these companies would circle predominantly African American neighborhoods on the map in order to know who they would discriminate against.]

Because literally, the real estate industry in the banking industry would, you know, basically red line, a neighborhood that says, this is a depressed neighborhood, and we’re not going to loan money in this area, we’re not going to go help support development in this area, we can hear about those things, right. But I think what we saw and what we witnessed this past summer, was really kind of, we’ve had enough and you all need to not just learn about it, but truly reconcile the fact that this country was built on injustice and slavery. And it’s been going on for hundreds of years. And so I think, outside of any small circumstance, where someone may have been profiled on a corner, or stopped and asked what they were doing, or whether we saw things like even the OJ Simpson trial on TV unfold when I was growing up, and the black community truly believing his innocence and the white community, truly believing that he must have done it. Everyone’s kind of looking in from the outside and making some judgments. My biggest kind of realization, last summer with the killing of George Floyd, and then all of the protests associated was stop, start to educate yourself and really begin to understand what has been the legacy in the history of this country when it comes to a multitude of things like redlining, like profiling, like the justice system? Because it’s no one instance, it’s really beginning to understand about the whole system.

Declan Downey 9:30
And you spoke on it, obviously, just now a little bit about stopping and understand the history of your country. But one of the questions I wanted to ask was, as a white male, in a time of ongoing racial justice movements, what would you say your role is in this social change.

David 9:54
So as an individual, and especially as an individual white male, my first role was to educate myself. I’ve told many of my colleagues, friends and family, that reading the book, [Robin Diangelo] White Fragility, was a fantastic start to truly understand who I am as a white person in this country. But I’ve also had to continue reading and speaking with folks to really further kind of my education. So, you know, my role is first, I think, to educate myself. And then it’s also to convey to others as a white male, that I’m educating myself and what I’m learning. I think this has to start with individuals, really understanding who they are, and also what the nature of social and racial injustice is in this country. Before we ever move forward, right now, one of my biggest interests, if you will, is that you’ve seen around the world, various societies, all of which have had their dark parts of their history. And whether it’s, you know, Canadians and the way in which they treated indigenous peoples, or you can think of Germany and the, the Nazi regime, most other countries went through a truth and reconciliation process where they admitted to the truth of what was happened happening. And they went through a reconciliation process of really reconciling for the oppressor, what has transpired. And that’s not something that’s happened in the United States. So, for me, I think it’s my responsibility to educate myself. And then, you know, the work that we’re doing is trying to speak to the truth and reconciliation of what needs to happen, which ultimately, I think is going to be, you know, the next several decades plus trying to trying to overcome racial injustice from the past centuries.

Declan Downey 12:17
So you spoke a little bit about, I believe you said white fragility? That’s a book you read

David 12:23
Yes.

Declan Downey 12:23
I there a person who you have gone to, or you have listened to or read about who educates you about social change, and has helped you to understand the ongoing movements and learn as you’ve been advising others to do?

David 12:47
Yeah, I would say there isn’t a single person. But you know, but there’s been many authors, and many, many people who are now speaking, or actually, who have been speaking about this, who I am now listening to. And so, you know, through the years, you know, white fragility was a great book for me because it was focused on who I am as an individual. And it was written by a white sociologist who basically put it in terms of who I am. And that really began to give me, you know, a different perspective, as opposed to all of the great racial justice speakers who I’d grown up seeing on the news or things of that nature. You know, Cornell West, was a fantastic individual. And I was fortunate to see him speak, not too very long ago. And just understanding why race mattered. But Ta-Nehisi Coats [Author of “Between the World and Me”] was another author that I found really interesting, because he started telling in his book about what it was like. Basically, he wrote a book to his son that described, you know, this is what it is to be a black man in America. And to hear it kind of, from his perspective, telling his sons, you know, I’m a father with sons. It was it was powerful to say, this is the world you’re living in, you know, a black body is treated differently than a white body. I even remember when we moved into a home when we were when that my family was younger. We moved into a home and another suburban community, and the people that we purchased a home for was a black family, and we had a wonderful conversation. Because our children were going to grow up in the same school system that their, their children did, but I was part of community building. And I was asking them, you know, what it was like to grow up in this particular neighborhood. And I actually had a conversation with this couple about the fact that they had two black sons in largely an affluent white, suburban neighborhood. And they talked about what they had to tell their sons, which is, you know, if anything goes wrong in a situation, because you’re black, and everyone else are largely everyone else around you is not black, you may be perceived as the problem, you may be the first one blamed. And this was a conversation that they told me they would have with their children. This is the same thing that we’re hearing now, from everyone that talks about, you know, having to have the talk with your children. And I heard that back in, It was like 2000. And it was very real. So whether it was, you know, reading white fragility, or, you know, Race Matters from Cornell West, or this couple that we bought a home for, The experiences are there, I think the bigger question is whether you have your ears open, and whether you’re truly listening and taking it all in. Because for a long time, people speak about the injustices, I think, until this past summer, much of the community, much of the country, if you will, didn’t truly stand up and realize or listen to it, if that makes sense.

Declan Downey 16:43
It does. Would you say that, actively listening is the biggest hurdle that most people have to overcome when it comes to understanding social and racial change.

David 16:58
That’s, that makes a lot of sense. And maybe I would, I would even dig a little deeper into, you know, actively listening. I think it’s actively listening. And it’s probably also having some sense of humility and trust. And I say that because you can actively listen to someone and kind of have an internal bias that, yeah, this is their point of view, or I’m not sure I believe it. But if if we’re a little more humble and trusting, I think what, what we saw emerge last year was this stuff, we’re not making this stuff up, you know, people have been speaking this truth, for decades. And, and somehow it finally got through. So I think as a white male in particular, you know, it’s hard because, you know, we don’t want to feel as though you know, we personally, may be prejudice or we personally want to put down other people and other races and other communities. And the the sins of our fathers, if you will, of past generations, doesn’t necessarily mean that that’s who I am. However, when you step back and look at it, it’s not just about the individual, it’s really about this entire country has created so many systems over the 200 years, that by its nature, power, and influence, and access are things that are simply available to white people, more so than people of color. And that’s what you’re actively listening goes beyond the individual experience, and starts to understand that this is something much bit bigger than just the individual speaking to you, or just you who’s listening. It’s looking for, and appreciating that it does exist, it exists for the other individual. And there is a much bigger kind of system behind the whole thing.

Declan Downey 19:20
So we’ve talked about the learning process and how you have taken it upon yourself to learn about the movements going on and to further social change. So now, can you describe you work for IDA the International Downtown Association, which is an urban development company that focuses on the downtown sector cities, correct?

David 19:44
Correct.

 

Declan Downey 19:45
So can you give me an example of how your company in particular has furthered social change in cities developments? Or at least in your work?

 

David 19:59
Sure. So in our work, we do a lot in what’s called district management organizations they are not for profit management organizations who in a central business district in the center of a downtown downtown or a city, you know, they provide additional clean, safe promotions, special events, you know, activations, they do extra work above and beyond what the city does, to try and make a district vibrant, exciting and successful. In the work that we do, and in I would say, for the last 10 years, when we’re doing a lot of educational programming, or when we are looking to evaluate best practices for awards programs, or we’re trying to create a library of resources that other districts can borrow from in doing their own programming, we’ve made a concerted effort to be sure that the speakers, the projects, the examples, the neighborhoods that we’re drawing from, are as diverse as possible. You know, a really simple example would be if we’re doing an educational conference, and we have a lineup of keynote speakers for the day. From the very beginning, 10 plus years ago, we made certain they were not all white men, that there was diversity in both the speakers and in the work that they’re doing, trying to demonstrate that this is an area of professional practice, that was needing to have diverse leaders. And that was also open and available to a broad group of professionals who were interested in doing this work. So at a very kind of superficial level, we were able to at least demonstrate and highlight that this was not a predominantly white only type of profession. Now, one of the challenges that we have today goes back to what I was mentioning about kind of the systems of things. So if our organizational members, these nonprofits who run these districts in urban centers, one of the challenges that they face, and that we face as a nation is the property owners in that downtown are essentially the nonprofit board members of these districts.

Well, property ownership, especially in the United States, and in these urban centers are largely either family owned legacy ownership of, of largely white Caucasian families, or their corporate holdings, real estate investment holdings, whose leadership are largely not diverse, and so inherent, even in our own work is the owners of the property, the owners of the businesses, the people who sit on boards of directors of these companies, they’re not extremely diverse in their thinking or in their socio-economic and social makeup. So we’re really challenged right now in trying to further build inclusive communities for all recognizing that the real estate industry and the property ownership industry in this country is not diverse. So it’s really pretty interesting to see what we can do as an organization to promote black and brown, new business entrepreneurs, to find ways in which we can make starting new businesses or opening new businesses in our urban centers, more available to black and brown businesses. And right now we’re working to try and build a little bit more of a ecosystem or a supportive network that will help invest in more minority owned business opportunities in our urban centers. Because right now, it still just doesn’t exist to the level that it should.

Declan Downey 24:37
Okay, well, I think that just about does it for interview. Thank you for talking to me today.

David 24:45
Great. I hope this was helpful.

Declan Downey 24:48
Definitely was, alright, Have a nice day.

 

David 24:51
Bye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

 

Research

I decided to research The White Flight and Redlining in order to provide context for the interview I conducted. Both deal with underlying racial discrimination towards minorities, and my interviewee mentioned both, so I felt including their definitions and historical context would help raise the value of the interview. The White Flight had to do with cities, or rather the flight of white people form cities becoming increasingly populated with minorities, and seeing s how my interviewee is an expert on cities and part of the interview focused on that, I felt including this definition would provide more context as to what my interviewee was escribing when it came to the racial discrimination within specifically cities themselves. Redlining seemed to be a very common practice, and although blatantly illegal it was commonplace during the 1900s. Redlining provided an example of how black people were discriminated against, and not all white people knew about it. elaborating on this subject helped to contextualize the idea that educating yourself about the trial of others is a key way to reach understanding, and to move forward. These were the topics I felt most important to research regarding this interview, although my interviewee talked about a range of different topics.

Bibliography

Britannica.com. Redlining. Encyclopedia Britannica Inc., 2021, https://www.britannica.com/topic/racism. Mar. 28, 2021.

Marriam Webster Dictionary. White Flight. 2021, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/white%20flight. Mar. 28, 2021.

Waldek, Stefanie. What is White Flight. MSN, Oct. 9, 2020, https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/what-is-white-flight/ar-BB19Sd7s. Mar. 28, 2021.

Follow Up Commentary

The Interviewee approved the transcription on March 27th, 2021. In looking through the transcript, the interviewee didn’t see many problems with it, other than a couple typos with specific information that was then fixed. Also, they asked about duplicates and reconstructed sentences, but after I edited it they were satisfied.

Technical Elements

This interview was recorded through Zoom (audio only), exported to a MP.4 file, and then transcribed through Otter.ai.

Transcription Process

Using Otter.ai made this process very simple. For my transcription, the AI filtered out most of the stutters and “um’s” from my interview. I did wonder if I should leave in certain repeated phrases by my interviewee, but I determined that the phrase added to the interviewee’s personality and image more than it distracted from the main message, so I left them in.