Interview with Roger Lancaster, History 150 Spring 2020, Conducted by Grace Templeton, April 7, 2020
The person I interviewed is my grandfather, Roger Lancaster. Born in Alberta, Canada, he got an undergraduate degree in Vancouver at the University of British Columbia, then came to the United States in 1968 to get his graduate degree in parks and recreation management from the University of Indiana. After getting married in Alberta, Canada to an American woman, he moved back to the States to work in Washington, D.C. for the Department of Agriculture in 1974 and has lived here ever since. He has retired and currently lives in Waterford, Virginia, where he practices photography.
Research
“How the United States Immigration System Works.” American Immigration Council, Immigration Council, 10 Oct. 2019, www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/how-united-states-immigration-system-works.
On this website, I learned about the different ways people can enter and stay in the United States, including family-based immigration, refugees and asylees, and the difference between permanent immigration and temporary visas. This gave me insight into my grandfather’s journey to the United States. His graduate-level education at Indiana University was covered by a student visa, while his return to the states in 1974 was most likely covered by the family-based immigration system, where his wife, an American citizen, would have acted as his sponsor. There is no limit to the number of immigrants with American spouses entering the country, but there is a limit to immigrants whose spouses or family members are only Lawful Permanent Residents. This means that my grandfather’s immigration process was most likely objectively easier than many other immigrants at the time.
Waugh, Basil. “Canadians and Americans Are More Similar than Assumed.” UBC News, The University of British Columbia, 7 July 2011, news.ubc.ca/2011/07/07/canadians-and-americans-are-more-similar-than-assumed/.
In this article, I learned about the similarities between Americans and Canadians, especially between English Canada and the Northern United States. I also read about their differences, including trust in government and religion. While there seems to be a strong cultural divide between Canada and America, especially when it comes to politics, it seems that the truth of the matter is that the average American and the average Canadian actually share similar ideas about the government, including health care. Despite what this article says, my grandfather did work with the American government as a Canadian, so I believe that his first-hand experience with politics holds a lot of weight, and it gives his opinion credibility. At the end of the interview, my grandfather spoke on the subject of healthcare in the greater context of American culture, so this piece of research gave me some background information on the similarities between American and Canadian cultures that often go unnoticed.
Varon, Jeremy. “Defying the Draft.” Reviews in American History, vol. 32, no. 4, 2004, pp. 573–579. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/30031449. Accessed 10 Apr. 2020.
In this interview, my grandfather spoke about his experience seeing his peers in graduate school drafted for the Vietnam war. My grandfather entered the United States at the peak of the Vietnam War, when young men were getting drafted left and right. In fact, some men tried to avoid the draft by going to college, studying at seminary, or even fleeing to Canada, called “draft evasion.” This means my grandfather was actually doing the opposite of what many young men in North America were doing. This great movement of people from one country to another is a huge example of social change that my grandfather got to experience in a reverse sort of way. Witnessing this probably had an impact on the way he first got to know the United States.
Immigration from Canada to America
[Grace Templeton]: Hello, this is Grace Templeton. I’m interviewing my grandfather Roger Lancaster. We’re in the dining room in Waterford, Virginia.
[Roger Lancaster]: Well, my name is Roger Lancaster. I’m originally from Canada. I was born and raised in Canada. And Grace is one of my granddaughters.
[G.T.]: So our first question is, can you explain to me the process of your coming to the United States?
[R.L.]: Well, I actually came first to the United States to go to graduate school at Indiana University. I had graduated from the University of British Columbia. And then I worked for three years, and then I went to Indiana University to pursue graduate work, my master’s degree. And it was there that I met Grace’s grandmother, my wife, and we got married and moved back to Canada, where I taught at a college in Calgary, Alberta. And then we moved down to the states in 1974.
[G.T.]: So, why did you choose to study in the United States?
[R.L.]: Well, the university I went to, Indiana University, had what was considered to be probably the best graduate school program in parks and recreation administration, which is what I majored in. And I applied there and was accepted and was given a few scholarships. So that’s why I went to Indiana. And then when we moved down, my wife and I, and by then we had two children who were born in Canada, one of whom is Grace’s mother, I was offered a great job down in Washington DC. And so we ended up moving down to the DC area in 1974.
[G.T.]: So they hired you even though you weren’t a citizen?
[R.L.]: Yes. It was because I had unique skills that they needed. And the other thing, of course, was that because my wife was American, I was able to get into the United States pretty easily.
[G.T.]: With what? With a green card?
[R.L.]: Yeah, well, I had to have a green card because when I moved down, I was foreign. I was able… back then, if you wanted to move to the States, it was a pretty complicated process, but because my wife was American, it was a relatively easy process, because I came down as and she sponsored me. So I was able to get the job because I had a green card. I was able to work in the States.
[G.T.]: So when you came to the United States to work, was that around the time that the Vietnam War was going on?
[R.L.]: Yes. The very first time I came down to graduate school was in 1968. And it was right at the height of the Vietnam War. When I came here in 1974, the war was just ending. But when I was here for graduate school, it was the height of the Vietnam War.
[G.T.]: Well, something interesting that was happening, that I researched ahead of time, was that American citizens were leaving to go to Canada to escape the draft.
[R.L.]: Yes. In fact, I had a lot of friends in Canada where I worked, who were– they call them draft dodgers. They moved Canada to get out of the draft. Now, so many years later, they were given amnesty and they could move back to the states if they wanted to, long after the war ended, but many of them ended up staying in Canada. And they married Canadian girls or Canadian men, if they were a girl. And they ended up staying there.
[G.T.]: So, when you were in America, did you have any experiences with the Vietnam War? Like, did you see lots of protesting or anything like that?
[R.L.]: Well, there were a lot of protests, but Indiana University did not have many. There were marches and that sort of thing. And I kind of stood back and watched. Two things struck me though. I remember, on my way down, I flew out of Seattle. And I was absolutely amazed at the number of military personnel that were in the Seattle airport. And of course, Seattle was one of the main starting points for the men who were being shipped off to Vietnam. The second thing that amazed me about the war was that that was the first year that graduate students in American universities could not get out of the draft because they were students. Up to that time, if you were enrolled in college– if you were a student in college, you could get a draft deferment. But that year, they took off the draft deferment for those who were in graduate school. If you were in undergraduate school, you could still get a draft deferment. But if you were in graduate school, you couldn’t. So, what happened in the dorm I was living in at the time, it was all graduate students. And I remember seeing these fellows going down to their mailboxes with sheer trepidation because if there was a blue envelope in the mailbox, that was from the draft board and you had to report to the army. Like right now. And they literally went back up through the rooms, packed up their stuff, and left. And I’ve often wondered, you know, whatever happened to a lot of those guys, because some of them were my friends. But no questions asked. They just had to go.
[G.T.]: Did they tell you that they were leaving?
[R.L.] Yeah. Oh yeah, we knew, yeah. Have a party for him or whatever. Yeah.
[G.T.]: So, when you were at school, you went to a Canadian university and an American University. Were there differences between your experiences?
[R.L.]: Yes. Yes. Canadian universities tend to follow the British system. For example, we never had semesters or quarters. We have what were called terms. And you started the course in September, and come Christmas time, you had what were called Christmas exams. And then, the course continued–same course–would continue through till April, to the end of the school year. So you took a course that lasted the whole year, it didn’t last just for… well, some courses would only last for one term. But most courses would start in September and finish in April with midterm exams at Christmas time. Now, the interesting thing was because the courses were so long and covered so much material, the final exam period at UBC, where I went, nobody was out. Everybody was studying for the exams. And so that was a big, big difference.
[G.T.]: Yeah. Did you have to adjust to that?
[R.L.]: No. Because timewise, it was the same, but Indiana had semesters, they didn’t have terms. A course would only last one semester, whereas UBC, of course, would last for two terms. The other thing that was interesting… in the states, they use the GPA system where you could get a 4.0 where it’s all A’s, and so on. They didn’t do that at the Canadian universities. They had what was called first class honors, second class honors, or pass. And the first class honors was if you had very high grades, second class honors, you were middle of the road. Pas was, “okay, you just got by.”
[G.T.]: Okay. You have a story about your immigration process. Could you tell me that story?
[R.L.]: Yes. When I was offered a job in Washington, DC., they wanted me to start in the middle of January. So in January 1974, I put my wife and kids on an airplane to go to Georgia where my in-laws live. And I drove by myself all the way from Calgary, Alberta, to Washington, DC in the middle of January. My biggest fear was that it would run into a blizzard. And then the other thing, right at that time there was a gas shortage, and gas stations were closed on Sundays. So I had to time it to be in West Lafayette, Indiana to stay with some friends on the Saturday night.
But when I crossed the border, I crossed in Portal, North Dakota, way out in the middle of nowhere. It was dark. It was probably about five or six in the afternoon, in the middle of winter. So it was dark. And I get up to the border crossing, and I had a two year old Volvo station wagon. Pretty brand new car. So nobody was there. A guy comes out of the customs building. The first question he asked was, “Does this car meet American emission requirements?” Well, I didn’t know! “Well, if it doesn’t, you can’t bring this car in,” he said. Oh my goodness, what am I gonna do? I’m out in the middle of North Dakota, and no car? Well, he said, “Let’s look.” So he lifted up the hood, and he found the sticker and said, “Oh, here it is. The car’s okay. Come on inside the building.” Well, in Calgary, I had to go to the American consulate, and fill out all the paperwork and everything like that. And they put it in an envelope and they put a seal on the back. And in big letters it said, “If you break this seal, you’re going to be put in jail,” or words to that effect.
So I gave the envelope to the guy at the immigration office at the border. He opened it up. He’s going through it, and he said, “You’re missing your draft forms.” I said, “Well, I don’t know anything about that.” I said, “Do you see I didn’t break the seal? This is what they gave me at the American consulate.” And he said, “Oh,” so he called for his partner, “Harry! Come here, look at this. He doesn’t have his draft papers.” So this is in January 1974. So they said, “Well, we better check this out.” So they went back and they got this big binder out. And I could see in the middle of the binder were pure white pages. All the other pages were kind of a yellowish color, old pages, but these were brand new. So they’ve gone through the binder and they get to these white pages. And the guy goes, “Hey, Harry, look at this. As of January the first, they don’t need draft papers.” That was the first time anybody had crossed the border since January the first. And it was the first time they realized that they didn’t need draft papers.
[G.T.]: So you were the first one.
[R.L.]: So they let me go my way and away I came.
[G.T.]: Well, you also have another story about your citizenship test.
[R.L.]: Well, when I came to the States, I didn’t have American citizenship. But I worked for this organization I was with for about 10, 12 years. And then I got a new job. And the job was associated with a federal government agency. I wasn’t a civil servant, but I was associated with them. And so they felt it was important that I probably should get my American citizenship. Well, that was not a problem, because my wife was American. Basically, all I had to do is fill up the paperwork. But one of the things, when you’re applying for citizenship, is that they give you an exam. And there’s two reasons for the exam. One is to ensure that you have a bit of a command of the English language, but secondly, they think it’s important that you have a bit of knowledge about American history. So, the day comes for my exam, and I go down to the immigration office. My appointment was for 10 o’clock. Well, 10 o’clock came and went, and I’m sitting there, sitting there, sitting there. All of a sudden, this guy came out, and he really looked haggard and tired. And he says, “Boy, am I glad to see you.” He said, “I just had to fail a guy.” And he said, “Very sad situation. But come on in.” So I go into his office and I sit down, he says, “Now I’m going to give you this exam.” And he told me why they gave the exam, says there’s 10 questions. He said, “So I’m gonna read out a question to you, and then you give me the answer.”
So the first question was, “Who succeeded Richard Nixon as president of the United States?” Gerald Ford. Okay. So then, I can’t remember what the second question was. But the third question was, “What was the name of the war in the United States in the 1860s?” And I looked him straight in the eye and I said, “The War of Northern Aggression.” [the way in which many US southerners referred to the Civil War]. And he said, “What?” I said, “The War of Northern Aggression.” And so you have to remember, I married a girl from Georgia. And to them, it was the War of Northern Aggression. Well, he just burst out laughing. And he said, “No more questions. That was it.” I was able to walk out.
[G.T.] That’s funny. So, you’re married to a woman from Georgia?
[R.L.]: Yes.
[G.T.]: Were there any cultural things that you had to adapt to?
[R.L.]: Yeah, some… the accent was one. [*This is where we had to pause the interview and then restart the recording.*] Americans don’t really, I think, have a very good knowledge of the rest of the world. Obviously, there’s some that do, but a lot of them don’t. I blame a lot of that on the news media. I think American media has a tendency to just deal with American issues. They will only deal with issues in other countries of the world if those issues have an effect in the United States. You can go to almost any Canadian newspaper or British newspaper, and those are the ones I’m familiar with. There’s a lot of international news. And you really don’t get much international news in American papers. As a result of that, I think, and to the detriment of America, there’s a relative ignorance of the rest of the world. And that’s sad. And I think it’s to America’s detriment. The other thing I found very difficult to deal with, and I still do, is the concept of American exceptionalism. Exceptionalism meaning America’s an exceptional country. And too many Americans are taught that from birth. And, I think with the situation we’re finding right now, that is a real problem. Yes, America is a great country, but I don’t think an exceptional country. And I think, given what’s happening, there are many other countries in the world that are doing things much better.
[G.T.]: When you say what’s happening, you mean the Coronavirus?
[R.L.]: The Coronavirus. The way other countries approached it, I think, has been much more effective. But you see, the States, you know, will never… too many Americans think unless it’s from the States, it’s not a good idea. They won’t take a look at what other countries do and adopt it to the States. Health system. Good example. I think the American health system stinks. All you have to do is look at Canada or France or Britain and see where they are. Or any of the Scandinavian countries, they’re much, much better in terms of the health system than the States is. But too many Americans don’t buy that, because we’re America. You know, we’re, we’re better than anybody else. And that has always bothered me. Because there are in other countries that are pretty darn good.
[G.T.]: Were you an American history teacher?
[R.L.]: Yes.
[G.T.]: Okay. In high school?
[R.L.] Yes.
[G.T.]: What was that like?
[R.L.]: It’s interesting, because I brought a whole different perspective to it. I knew a lot about American history, but I had to study it, you know. I was teaching at a private school. And I was also the athletic director of that school. This was just for a couple of years. And they had me teach American history. And so the perspective I brought to it was pretty different than, I think, what a lot of other American history teachers. One of the things I made them do… I was very concerned about the kids’ lack of knowledge of things that were going on. So, one of their assignments, they had to get a copy of the newspaper every day and bring it to class. And we would go through and talk about some of the stories that were in the paper. And I’ve had students come up to me, kids who were in that class, many, many years later, and thank me for that. And your mother is one. And she still reads her newspaper! So does Scott. Scott still reads the newspaper. But prior to that, they didn’t have a clue. And I think that’s a problem today. I think, you know, we… yes, you can get it online. But basically what you get online is encapsulated views. And I think you need to go in depth in a lot of stories. And you can only do that,I think, through a newspaper. Now you can get the whole newspaper online. But I think in this day and age of computer technology, too many people look for the bullets and don’t get in depth.
[G.T.]: Well, I have no more questions. Do you have any other stories from your transition to America?
[R.L.]: No, not really. I’ve lived here now. 45 somewhat years, 46 years. And I’ve enjoyed it. I think it’s a great country. I try and get back to Canada to visit. And there are many good things about the States, but there are also many weaknesses. I think that we can learn from other countries, learn a lot, and we need to do that.
[G.T.]: Well, thank you very much.
Reflection
This interview was conducted in-person. I did have to edit it a bit because a phone call was made in a room near us, and it distracted from the interview. I assumed that the dining room was a quiet place and informed everyone in the house that an interview was taking place. Looking back, I could have tried going into a bedroom instead. To record the interview, I used both my phone and my MacBook Air to make sure I had two good recordings in case something went wrong with one of them. The recording I used was taken on my MacBook Air. Unfortunately, because of the pandemic, I was not able to rent more professional equipment from the library. I used the Voice Memo app on both of my devices, and then I used Garage Band to edit the material I recorded.
I think the interview went very well. There were moments where the transition between topics felt awkward, but that usually happened when I was treating the interview as a checklist of questions rather than a conversation. I really loved the divergences from the pre-planned questions because they felt more natural, but I think sometimes when we went “off-script,” the theme of social change seemed less present. I did get some great oral history stories, though! If I could do it over, I would start the interview with a normal conversation rather than going right into questions, just to warm up a bit.