Interview with Sarah Tocco, History 150 Spring 2020, Conducted by Isabella Swatosh, March 8, 2020.
Biography
I interviewed my mother, Sarah Tocco. She is a Head Chef at Fine Creek Brewing Company in Powhatan, Virginia. Born in Massachusetts, she spent most of her childhood in Minnesota, where she began working in the culinary field at age 15. She started with waitressing and barista jobs and moved into management. She quit work for awhile after she had her first child at the age of 23. After her second daughter was 3 years old, she went back to work, again as a barista, then as a bartender, and then as a baker, all at a catering company in Goochland, VA.
She then got hired as a full-time pastry chef, where she learned an abundance of on the job training in European Style Pastry. After 10 years, she left that job to be a Sous Chef at The Mill at Fine Creek, and remained there until they opened their sister company, Fine Creek Brewing Company, where she was promoted to Head Chef.
Research
The theme of gender inequality in the workforce is not uncommon, though one branch that is sometimes overlooked is the food production and service industry. The culinary field has male-dominated workforce, with the odds stacked against women who attempt to enter the field. According to an article by Kristen Hartke, “less than seven percent of restaurants in the United States are led by female chefs” (Hartke). There are frequently stories that speak of the sexual harassment and assault of female chefs, as well as a tendency to categorize women into shamefully old-fashioned and domesticated stereotypes. Some steps have been taken to recognize the women of the culinary field, such as the creation of the award “World’s Best Female Chef”, but some argue that this creates more division than unification. As stated by Atelier Crenn – 2016 winner of the World’s Best Female Chef award, “this award category defines chefs by their gender, not by their skills, it needs to change… I respect my peers but by having a gender-specific award, we are creating a competition among the genders” (Chen). My mother has commented on her experiences as a chef in the past – specifically relating to gender and the polarization of male and female chefs – and how that division has affected her while in the workforce.
Sources
Hartke, Kristen. “Women Chefs Still Walk ‘A Fine Line’ In The Kitchen.” NPR, NPR, 31 Aug. 2018, www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2018/08/31/639398136/women-chefs-still-walk-a-fine-line-in-the-kitchen.
McCarron, Meghan. “If Its Really Womens Moment, Why Are We Still Failing Female Chefs?” Eater, Eater, 30 May 2018, www.eater.com/2018/5/30/17397060/women-chefs-food-media.
Chen, Evelyn. “Is It Time to Stop Treating Women Chefs Differently?” CNN, Cable News Network, 18 Oct. 2018, www.cnn.com/travel/article/women-chefs/index.html.
“Social Change Interviews.” Social Change Interviews, WordPress, 3 Mar. 2019, https://sites.lib.jmu.edu/sc-interviews/2019/03/24/gender-discrimination-in-the-workplace-since-1985/. Accessed 1 Mar. 2020.
Interview Transcription
Bee Swatosh: Okay, um, state your name?
Sarah Tocco: Sarah Tocco
Bee Swatosh: Do you consent to this interview?
Sarah Tocco: Yes.
Bee Swatosh: Cool, okay. Um, first question – how did you feel about entering the food production industry?
Sarah Tocco: I did not want to. It was always one of those jobs where I did it until I got my career, and I never intended to stay in the food industry.
Bee Swatosh: Huh.
Sarah Tocco: [laughing] But then I did!
Bee Swatosh: [laughing] Then you did!
Sarah Tocco: I kept staying!
Bee Swatosh: What was the progression of your presence in food production, and what steps did you take to get where you are today?
Sarah Tocco: My progression… um, I started more in just, like, a high school job. And then I moved into management. And then after management I moved into catering, and then that pushed me into being a pastry chef and I spent ten years being a pastry chef. And then I moved into full culinary, savory side of things, and I’ve been doing that ever since. And it just keeps kind of naturally progressing on its own.
Bee Swatosh: Okay! Um, what are some positive life skills you’ve learned in this line of work, and are there any negatives?
Sarah Tocco: Positive is adaptation, for sure. I never know what I’m gonna get week-to-week. It is a question all the time of what’s available, what actually comes in, what customers come in the door, what they actually order. It is constant adaptation, and I’ve definitely learned extremely hard work ethic. There’s no stopping, there’s no “I don’t want to”, it’s just go go go all the time – which is both positive and negative. The negative is that it’s definitely a very physical job, and being a chef means working all weekends, always working holidays, and it’s very physically exhausting. And hot – it’s always hot in the kitchen – it’s hot and uncomfortable and loud and fast [laughing].
Bee Swatosh: [laughing] That’s 90% of the things I hate.
Sarah Tocco: Yes. So those are the negatives.
Bee Swatosh: Okay, um, can you describe a time when you felt that being a woman defined your experiences at work? Has being married to Pierre – a man in the same career field as you – also shaped your experiences?
Sarah Tocco: Yes, um, several times actually. There was a restaurant I got hired at with some friends who were all male, and we all got hired for the kitchen. But when we got to work, all the men got to work in the kitchen, and I had to work as a hostess because they didn’t want “drama” in the kitchen. And I worked for a while, until I realized they had no intention of ever putting me in the kitchen because I was a female, and so I quit that job. Similarly, when I worked with Pierre, even if I was the one who made everything or did everything or decorated everything, he always got the credit. And people would always say “he did this, he did this”, and it was never allowed to me to recognize my talent with it.
Bee Swatosh: Rude.
Sarah Tocco: Very rude.
Bee Swatosh: How have you been able to overcome the expectations or stereotypes of female chefs?
Sarah Tocco: I don’t know. Um, I am a female chef and I’m with a kitchen crew of all females. So, I do feel like I’ve been allowed that opportunity, but I don’t know because I don’t work in like a full-service restaurant. It’s a lot smaller, it’s harder to say how I would be compared to other chefs in the field. Um, I definitely get a vibe of arrogance from every male chef that I encounter, however, when I tell them I’m a chef, for whatever that’s worth [both laughing].
Bee Swatosh: With recent issues surrounding the wage gaps among genders and races, so you believe this bleeds into the culinary field? Have you or someone you know experienced this?
Sarah Tocco: Absolutely. I’ve worked at this job for nine years and I’m the head chef. My husband came a year ago and he automatically got paid more than me.
Bee Swatosh: Oh yikes.
Sarah Tocco: Yeah, it’s real frustrating.
Bee Swatosh: Oh I don’t like that. Oh.
Sarah Tocco: Yep. It is evident with every female that I work with that the women often get paid less than the men. Not necessarily in my particular job, but um – at my place of work, I should say – but in the field I do know that women also struggle with that in other restaurants.
Bee Swatosh: A lot of awards for chefs are divided by the gender of the recipient. Do you believe that having the polarization of “Best Female Chef” and “Best Male Chef” awards is helpful or harmful to women in the culinary field?
Sarah Tocco: I think it’s harmful, because – like with sports, they have women and men’s – and that’s typically because your bodies are physically different. So, like women physically can’t do some of the things men can do, in the sense of like strength or weight training and things like that. So different fields make sense in that capacity. But for cooking and your ability for cooking and creativity, I think has nothing to do with gender. So I don’t think it should be a male versus female-type scenario, I think it should just be every chef for themselves and their creativity and ability. Because there’s no difference as far as strength goes or build-up, you know physical makeup, so I don’t feel it needs to be split into categories like that.
Bee Swatosh: Okay, and last question – yay. Um, while this doesn’t directly have to do with gender, it is known that the recent COVID-19 pandemic has greatly impacted the foodservice industry. What have been your experiences with this?
Sarah Tocco: Yeah I’m out of a job [both laughing nervously] so I’m basically no longer a chef [laughing continues]. So I’m pretty much on full-time unemployment right now. Um, [sarcastically] and that’s been fun. So I’ve been allowed to help where I can, and they certainly have gone out of their way to make sure that I maintain my health insurance and helping where they can. So I’m thankful to work for the company that I do because a lot of other companies wouldn’t be as good. But yeah, as a chef right now in this scenario, not the best choice of career. But it’ll come back around, everybody needs to eat. So in the meantime my children get to all the chef meals.
Bee Swatosh: Yes we do!
Sarah Tocco: Yes you do [both laughing]. And that’s about that. Coming from a home with two chefs as the sole breadwinners in the family and both of us now on full-time unemployment, it’s definitely been a difficult time [laughs].
Bee Swatosh: [quietly, jokingly] I just work at a custard stand – where there does actually happen to be a wage gap, fun fact.
Sarah Tocco: Yeah! Exactly.
Bee Swatosh: [laughing] But yeah! That’s pretty much all I have.
Sarah Tocco: Okay, thanks.
Bee Swatosh: Thanks momma!
Sarah Tocco: You’re welcome, Bee!
Interview Process
This interview was conducted in person using the Voice Memo app on my iPhone, and the transcriptions were done by hand. The home environment was quiet and relaxed, however we do own four cats, so there were a few meows in the background around the 5:00 mark. This was our only obstacle.
Thoughts on the Interview
Although the environment wasn’t awkward, I myself often struggled to transition between answers and questions. Though, Sarah answered the questions well and I feel that the interview flowed fairly well. Any small divergences from the script were humorous and casual, and they didn’t deviate from the topic for too long. I do wish I had asked more open-ended questions to add more content to the interview.