Paquita Pujol Interview, History 150 Spring 2017, Conducted by Chris Carr, March20, 2017
The following interview was conducted over the phone and recorded using the Tape A Call Pro recording application. The interviewee is my grandmother, Paquita Prieto Pujol, a Panamanian citizen who immigrated to the United States in 1954. In order to set up for the interview I purchased the application and coordinated for the conversation to take place at 5 pm on March 20th. I went to my room and used it as a quiet space to conduct the interview. After experimenting with the phone application, I made the call to conduct the interview. The interview lasted for approximately 15 minutes, and is transcribed below.
Paquita Prieto Pujol is a Panamanian citizen who immigrated to the United States in 1954 in order to attend college at the University of Miami. In Panama, she lived on an American naval base in the vicinity of the previously known “canal zone” in Panama City, where her father worked. She described her process of immigration as fairly simple and would go into detail about her residence in Panama and the effect of American influence in the country. She permanently moved back to Panama in the early 2000s, where she currently lives and works as a teacher.
To properly understand the interview, it is important to comprehend the political climate of Panama at that time. In 1903, Panama gained its independence following a separation from Colombia. In the movement for independence, Panama gained large support from the United States military, leading to a partnership that would result in the creation of the Panama Canal. In the 1950s, when Mrs. Pujol immigrated to the United States, there was growing tension in the country as political instability grew more prevalent. A rising national debt and consistent United States intervention in political issues caused tension to eventually boil over into violent rioting in 1958. The riots were suppressed but other riots would take place in the coming years, most notably including the riots of 1964 when the national guard were used to stop violent protest in the Canal Zone.
Transcription:
(The interview begins at the 40 second mark on the recording.)
CC: All right, so I guess the first question that I have would be, can you explain your reasoning for wanting to immigrate to the United States?
Mrs. Pujol: Ok, I actually immigrated to the United States so I could go to college.
CC: Oh, really.
Mrs. Pujol: Yes
CC: Where did you end up going?
Mrs. Pujol: I immigrated in 1954, graduated from high school, and I immigrated. I went to Miami, the University of Miami, but I came in on a permanent residence, because I had an aunt that sponsored me, in Miami. So I didn’t com in on a student visa; I came in on a permanent residence visa.
CC: Yes mam, and I guess my next question would be, were there any large difficult cultural transitions, or… that you can think of?
Mrs. Pujol: Well, I was very fortunate in the sense that I went to… I was living in the canal zone area of Panama, which was controlled by the US government, and I went to an American school. So I didn’t have a whole lot of problems in the transition between coming from Panama to the States, other than the fact that I was Spanish and I was coming into an American community in the States, but I lived in an American community in Panama.
CC: Right, well, where you were, was that close to where the (American) military bases were in Panama, in the canal zone?
Mrs. Pujol: Yes, yes I lived on a military base.
CC: Oh.
Mrs. Pujol: And I went to the American schools that were sponsored by, first the Panama Canal Commission and then the D.O.D. school system.
CC: Right, was that like a common… a common thing, I guess, for people to grow up on the military base and go to those schools?
Mrs. Pujol: No the only ones that went to the schools in the canal zone, what they call the canal zone area, were those that either worked for the panama canal commission, or were Military, or were Americans that were working for American companies in Panama. I was strictly an American school. The Panamanians could go to that school, but they’d have to pay tuition.
CC: So, you were fluent in English? I would guess you would be if you grew up on an American base.
Mrs. Pujol: I was a Panamanian but my father worked for the army.
CC: Right. (…) So how would you describe the process of immigration, I guess, from Panama to the United States, just the process itself?
Mrs. Pujol: Well, for me it was easier, like I told you, because I had someone to sponsor me. Back in the 1950s it was a lot easier to come into the States. You only had to have somebody in the States that could sponsor you, that could prove that they either owned property or they had money in the bank or that you were not going to be a burden to the US government. That was back in the 50s, it was a lot easier than it is now. I had several friends that were sponsored that way into the States. I didn’t find it difficult, like I said, because I had grown up around the Americans, so I didn’t find the transition difficult. For me it wasn’t.
CC: Right, that was actually going to be part of my next question, was what differences you would see now as opposed to then, about whether it was easier or more difficult? I guess with the sponsors it would have been easier, but are there any other differences that you see from now, as opposed to then for immigration.
Mrs. Pujol: Yes, there is a big difference now. When I immigrated, like I said, I just had to have a sponsor that could prove they were financially capable of taking care of me, where now it’s a lot more difficult. Now they have a lot of more requirements. You can not get a permanent visa into the states anymore, unless you can prove that you’re not coming to the States to stay, or, you know… The idea of getting a permanent visa is you can come to the states and you can stay a certain amount of months, but then you have to go back, you know, where before it wasn’t that way. Before, you got a permanent visa and you could come in the states and you stay, like I did, I went to college and then I got married, you know. Based on that, after three years I became a US citizen.
CC: And I guess in doing research on Panama in that time period, it said there was a little bit of political… or political instability, politically, and did that effect you at all?
Mrs. Pujol: Well there is always an element of political unrest, because Panamanians are very nationalist, and they resented the fact that the US has this 52 mile strip in the center of their country, that were governed by the US government, and they had no control over it, so there has always been that unrest. It didn’t effect me in any way because I left Panama in 1954, and the riots in Panama… the anti US feeling in Panama didn’t really start until 1959, around that time so I was not, you know, it didn’t effect me in anyway. But living in Panama as a Panamanian, there was always a little bit of a resentment towards the Americans, like I said, because they felt like… Ok it would be like if you were living, say in Virginia, and all of a sudden Virginia Beach became a part of another country, and you weren’t allowed to go into Virginia Beach, unless you had… you had to have special car tags, you had to have special license, they had their own courts. It was like a different country inside of your country, so there was that resentment.
CC: And then I guess because of those, I guess… what happened in 1959, then after, what was it like when you first went back, or like after all of that was taking place?
Mrs. Pujol: Well when I first went back, again, like I said, you know, having been born and raised in this country I didn’t feel it any different. The Americans, they felt a little bit of antagonistic towards them, but I didn’t feel it any different because I grew up in both worlds, so I could, you know, I could handle both… I could either be a Panamanian or I could be an American, so it didn’t really effect me in any way, but for most Panamanians or most Americans, yes it effected them, because they felt like they, like the Panamanians wanted them out of their country.
CC: (…)
Mrs. Pujol: But as far as, like you know, when I first came to the States, remember I came into the States at a time when there was segregation, and it was, I came to the States and of course, I didn’t really feel that difference because, fortunately, I’m white with blue eyes, I really looked American, I didn’t look Panamanian, but I did notice the difference in the segregation in the States. We had segregation in Panama, but it was brought on by the Americans. In other words, if you lived in the canal zone, you either lived in what they called the silver row or the gold row. The gold row is where the Americans lived, white Americans, because if you were black American you lived in the silver row. You were not considered as an equal.
CC: I didn’t know that.
Mrs. Pujol: Uh huh, so when I came to the states and I remember the first time I went into (inaudible) and I saw all the black people standing in the back and just the white people standing at the counter, and I thought, you know, where do I belong, because I’m Panamanian.
CC: And did you… I actually didn’t know there was segregation in the American parts of Panama, so did you, I guess if there was a gold row and a silver row for white and black Americans, was there a different, separate treatment of Panamanians or were they mostly just outside of the…
Mrs. Pujol: Panamanians were treated on the silver row side. They were treated just as I said before, with the blacks. That was another resentment they had.
CC: So, there was segregation against the Panamanians as well?
Mrs. Pujol: Yes segregation, by the Americans, not by the Panamanians because Panamanians didn’t have segregation… it was the Americans that segregated.
CC: Did you notice any difference in America’s influence on the region when you went back or was it basically just the same?
Mrs. Pujol: Well, when I went back, I used to come back every summer, and so I saw it gradually changing. When I came back after I retired of course, you know everything is different. There is no longer a canal zone, so everything is just Panama.
CC: I guess, you said you came back every summer so it wasn’t, I guess, you were permanently… had a visa for the United States and were permanently in the United States, but were transitioning from place to place, but one of my last questions what made you decide to eventually return to Panama for residency?
Mrs. Pujol: Economics, economics… a lot cheaper for me to live in Panama, and live in a comfortable style than it would have been for me to stay in the states. My dollar would go further here than it would in the states.
CC: Right, yes mam, so are there any other large takeaways that you have from your immigration experience at that time, or America’s influence in Panama or just anything broad from that experience.
Mrs. Pujol: Well the American experience in Panama is great, I mean to the point where the second language in Panama now is English, and everybody is trying to be bilingual in Panama. In a lot of ways the Americans have a big influence in Panama, as far as business, as far as infrastructure, in everything, you know. We’ve become… we are not… I don’t consider Panama as being a third world nation and I think a lot of it is due to the American influence.
CC: Right, so you think the American influence, or could you describe what you think the American influence has done? So you think it was a positive or a negative…?
Mrs. Pujol: Oh I think it was very positive, in a lot of ways. It was… there are always negative parts to everything, but I think it was very positive as far as Panama. The one thing, you know, we have the canal, which is, you know, the biggest money maker in Panama. If it weren’t for the canal we would be a third world nation like Nicaragua or El Salvador or Honduras. We’re not, you know. We are beyond being a third world nation.
CC: And I guess, you brought up the idea of Panama being a very nationalistic and proud country, so can you just describe what… how you experienced that at that time, just with everything that was going on with the American influence?
Mrs. Pujol: Well, like I said, Panama is very nationalistic. They’re very, very proud of who they are. They’re very proud of their flag and they will defend it to the nth degree. They don’t want anybody telling them how to run their country or what to do. Like every other nation in the world they have their faults too, but I think that’s one of the strongest things the US instilled in them was that sense of, you know, nationalism, because they fought so hard against the US to be sovereign in their own country, so in a way it was a positive thing for them.
CC: All right, yes mam, so are there any other big points that you would want to talk about, just trying to wrap this up?
Mrs. Pujol: No like I said, for me, immigrating to the states was not hard for me, because like I said, I had somebody in the states sponsor me, I spoke English, I grew up in an American society, so the transition was not hard for me. For others, yes its hard, but I have cousins that have immigrated to the states and have done very well. I think any place that you go in the world, as long as you are willing to respect their laws, you know, become part of their culture, and not try to change them, you won’t have any problems, especially in the United States.
CC: Yes mam I guess my last question is, would you have found it to be… or I guess, how much more difficult do you think it could have been had you not have had a sponsor?
Mrs. Pujol: Oh, if I hadn’t had a sponsor it would’ve been difficult. I probably would have spent years trying to get to the United States, because that was one of the requirements, just like, when I became a US citizen, they asked me three questions. Now to become a US citizen you have to practically learn a whole book. It’s not that easy.
Overall I think the interview went well. In retrospect I could have been better prepared by doing more research prior to the interview. I had a broad knowledge and understanding of American influence in Panama at the time, but I could have had more facts on the issue. I also could have looked into more background information about my grandmother, given the fact that I did not know she had grown up on the American base. Having not known this fact, the interview did not flow as well as it could have, and there are occasional pauses as I tried to adjust my questions. Other than that I am pleased with how the interview went, and these divergences led to our conversation over the American influence in Panama at the time, which I found very interesting.
Sources:
- “Building the Panama Canal, 1903-1914.” Office of the Historian. United States Department of State, n.d. Web.
- Gordon, Burton L., Richard L. Millett, and Gustavo Anguizola. “Panama.” Encyclopedia Britannica. N.p., n.d. Web.