Clarence C.T. Jones Interview, History 150 Spring 2016, Conducted by Rachel Moss, Participation in the Selma Marches, March 26, 2016.

1. This interview was conducted over the phone.  I was in my room, eliminating the noise around me as much as possible, by closing my door and windows. I recorded the interview with my laptop.
2. Clarence “C.T.” Jones participated in the Selma marches when he was twelve years old. Later, he attended Howard University, where he obtained a B.S. in electrical engineering. He now lives in Northern Virginia and attends Expectation Church. For most of his career, Mr. Jones worked for many automation companies, serving in such roles as a marketer, engineer, and technical instructor. Currently, he works as the textbook writer for Brilliant Training, whose books are made for electrical engineers and technicians.
3. In 1965, three marches took place from March 7 to March 25 from Selma to Montgomery as a response to community racial issues. The marches served as a protest due to the racial injustices occurring at the time, including African Americans being denied ease in voting, a failed voter registration campaign, and the death of Jimmie Lee Jackson. Many famous figures such as Martin Luther King Jr. and Reverend Frederick Reese participated in the marches. The marches were said to have contributed to the passage of the Voting Rights Act.
4. [Start of Transcript]

Rachel Moss: This is Rachel Moss conducting an over-the-phone interview with Clarence Jones on March 26, 2016. So would you prefer this interview be kept private or open to the public?

Clarence Jones: I don’t mind it being open.

RM: Thank you, um, to begin, can you give a short background of your childhood, such as where you grew up and how you lived and your values?

CJ: Sure, um, I grew up in Selma, Alabama, um, small town of about 32,000 at the time. Um, as far as I know it was the 5^th largest city in Alabama at that time. And I say that because it’s something that in our, I guess, history or geography courses, uh, they taught at the time. It may be larger or small at this point. But anyway, um, Selma was an interesting, uh, town, and most of my memories are from childhood, um, there, and, uh, because I left when I was fourteen years old. But, um, it was a town of fairly, um, quiet little town, uh, like I said of good size and, uh, a lot of things going on. It was an industrial town, uh, lots of manufacturing plants. Um, I went to school at Saint Elizabeth’s Catholic School and that-that was, um, I didn’t know at the time, but I learned later it was an, uh, missionary school, uh, and it had eight grades, uh, it had two classes in each, um, room and about I guess maybe thirty kids in each classroom. Um, so like I think growing up in Selma I had, you know, a pretty good, um, education, uh, from the nuns. Also we were next to-it was a parish I grew up as an altar boy in a catholic church, um, so we grew up with the Christian faith on one side of the family. I guess in a sense uh, my mother though was, um, Baptist and so we went both to Catholic Church and to um, and to um, a Baptist church as well.

Um, as far as the town is concerned and its racial divide-it was a divide but it was probably not what most people think it was like, uh, in most probably towns in the south, um, things were fairly peaceful, um, because you know blacks lived on one side of a generally a divide like maybe a railroad track or a main road like a Broad Street or something like that and whites lived on the other side. And, um, very little contact outside of, um, say of those people who may have worked in those situations that, um, involved uh you know both races and at the time you know at the time in public places, um, it was clearly marked you know where for instance water fountains or bus stations you know where blacks could or could not sit or should or should not sit uh or drink water or not drink water and things like that. Uh, I remember we went up into the theater and, um, you know, there was an upstairs and a downstairs and the upstairs is where whites sat and downstairs was where, um, where you know black kids uh sat. It was that kind of a divide throughout the city if you will and you know, in most areas, you know, like for instance schools, churches, um, whatever doctors, you know, my mom for instance was a nurse and she worked for Dr. Isabel Dumont, who was a missionary doctor but then she was part of the, uh, same parish but I didn’t know at the time, uh these things. Again, I read some of this in the newspaper later-years, and her and her partner had come from Germany and Holland and they were providing services in Selma for uh, you know black families, medical services. So is that pretty much answer you know kinda how I grew up? [unintelligible]

RM: Ya, definitely. Was that difficult for you as a child, um, growing up, where, um, black children and white children were separated in some instances?

CJ: Um, not particularly no. Uh, in fact, as a child, like I said, um, until the time came I guess, uh, when I was more involved in civil rights, I didn’t know a lot, you know, the real issues that perhaps black people dealt with uh on a day to day basis at work or whatever. Um, for us, like I said, you know we got up and we played on our side of town. We went to school on our side of town. We did everything, uh, you know-it was a community just like any other community. Um, you know, so the things that we did were normal things that you could do in this country in the, um, during the fifties and early sixties, so no I didn’t experience or feel like, um, this was particularly troubling for me or you know other kids at the time.

RM: Okay. So what were your reasons for becoming involved in the Civil Rights Movement?

CJ: Well at the time I think I probably got involved, um, probably around ten years old and I actually, believe it or not-it happened right around, um, this time of the year, um, when, um, there were lots of students, you know, um, a part of the student nonviolent, um, coordination, you know, SNCC. Um, that had, um, lots of students come down to Alabama and different cities, and so at the time there were many folks in Selma, uh, who had become involved. And actually a target, uh, for involvement was many of the young people in town, and of course this did go all the way down to younger ages, It was kind of amazing looking back, but you know, a large part of the civil rights movement in Selma involved young people, but I remember, um, ya. Like again, at most Easter times, uh, in small towns and really across the country, everybody you know-they buy their new Easter outfits and shoes and things like that, but this particular Easter I think it was probably ‘65 when, um, you know, we had been going to mass meetings and things and they had told us that this year they did not want us, you know, our parents to buy Easter clothes and go through all of that, saying we’re gonna boycott those stores and we’re gonna wear-everyone was just gonna wear regular clothes and overalls. And, in fact we, most kids wore overalls so that was kind of an early memory I guess of becoming involved besides going to mass meetings, you know, um, that were held at, um, in parish churches around town. Again on the black sides of town, mostly, but there were churches-large enough churches that sponsored mass meetings that were like nightly meetings that would have various speakers talking about what was going on and what was being planned and things like that. I think it was during that period when I began to see some of the dangers that were involved. I remember, um, right down from Saint Elizabeth church which was on Broad Street, there was a Baptist church on the same side of the road, and I remember one night, we, um, were coming out of there from a mass meeting and there were lines of cars along the street. Again, this was Broad Street, so that was kinda a dividing point, uh, and we could see, um, all these cars lined up along the road with, uh, rifles and shotguns in the windows, so we knew that something was not too cool there, but, uh, so, and that it was dangerous times.

RM: Wow.

CJ: Ya.

RM: Okay. So, how did you become involved in participating in the march at Selma?

CJ: Um, how did I become involved? Was again this was a period, um, like I said when on a regular basis mass meetings were being carried on and there was, uh, SNCC involvement with students, you know, coming from colleges around the country. I just simply started going to these meetings in the evenings now and I was quite young, and my mom knew I was going but this was one of these areas that she allowed us to become involved in, um, because she you know worked every day. And, uh, she and like a lot of adults believe it or not at that time, a lot of African American adults at the time, you know, they had to work and they did not necessarily have the freedoms to, to become so deeply involved as younger people did, and so that’s kind of how young people got involve. And, um, not only that, there’s a lot of nice things that lured younger kids to, I believe like those donuts and coffee and other things that you might not have gotten at a regular basis at home-these things were always there in the churches.

So you know, when it actually came time for, um, you know, it’s an interesting thing. Some of the marches that took place they weren’t always necessarily publicized. In fact, they weren’t necessarily publicized-they were just, uh, you know, after meetings and planning, you know. We would be told: today we’re gonna go to do this or we’re gonna to go here and have a peaceful march and peaceful protest. And, um, in fact ,when I think about the, uh, you know, the march of Bloody Sunday, I remember particularly, um, that me and two of my sisters and a couple of my female cousins, um, we knew what we were doing, but in a way we didn’t necessarily know what to expect, uh, so we decided we were going to participate, um, in this march that was going to go, uh, that was gonna start out to Montgomery, and we had little idea that we would not get any further than just across. So this I remember-this started probably late afternoon, uh, in Selma from Brown Chapel Baptist church in Sylvan Street and Sylvan Street was the street that I grew up on, so we could always just walk down the street and find out what was going on at the church, you know, so we, um, we were there when the plan was being made to start out. And, um, we went, you know, and, um, shortly after, you know, after we get across uh, you know, there’s-there’s a distance from where we left. Where we left on Sylvan street is probably if I were to guess now, probably a mile and a half to two miles to get downtown and to get to Edmund Pettus bridge and to head across the bridge. And, um, so I mean on that day we did this when, um, when we got across the bridge, um, you know, we weren’t right up front, um, but we were very close to the front, close enough to know that we’re being-we could see the horses lined across the road, mounted policemen with helmets, and you know, billy clubs and all that kind of stuff. We could hear what was going on because they announced these things over loud speakers and, you know, telling us that we, uh, were to stop and we weren’t going any further, and, um, you know, and I remember from that point on that we, we-the leaders of the march had us kneel down. We knelt down and they started to probably lead prayer, and very shortly after that all chaos broke out because they started throwing um tear gas bombs into-into the crowd, and, you know, and stampeding with horses. And again, you gotta remember that a lot of, um, the people in this line, if you look at any of the pictures you might find today, so like on Life Magazine, if you get a good enough picture, you can see that quite a number of the folks there were young people. Um, you know, because the church I was telling you about, Brown Chapel, it was right in the midst of George Washington-I always call it GWC: George Washington Carver, um, project-it was kind of a public housing. We didn’t live there, but we had cousins who lived there and, uh, a lot of those kinds of kids were always participating, because the church was right next door to where these kids lived so they were always involved so many kids lived there-it was really kind of frightening. I remember being-they actually chased us back across the bridge, and, you know, almost all the way back to where we had come from.

RM: Wow, so can you further describe how you felt when there was violence directed at you or any of the participants?

CJ: Oh, it was it was, uh, quite frightening. Like I said, we had no idea what to expect, and that we would actually expect something or oversee something or experience something like this. I mean, and I don’t know, you’ve never had tear gas, but, um, the tear gas is really frightening in itself because you can’t breathe and you can barely see if they throw enough of I, you know, and your eyes start to tearing, um. And I-I remember we: me, my sisters, and cousins, you know-we kinda hung together and we-there were some places right along the side of the bridge that we were able to, um, crouch down, you know, and for a while we could just try to hide from the gas. But, you know, after a short while, we had to get up, and run, you know, because they were closing in and pushing people back.   It was scary, you know, in fact, it was a scary time really. Um, I always remember mostly, um, on the very second march that was going to head out to Montgomery, it was quite different thought that time, but I was so afraid that, um, I thought I wanted to go but instead of getting close to the front of the line, I got way in the back and there were lots of people on that second time around [unintelligible]. If you’ve done a little research-that were there were just people from all around the country and all around the world in that second attempt. I had no idea either that would happen as well, so, uh, so, the fear that I had didn’t keep me from going, but it sure made me get far to the back.

RM: So how do you think the marches affected the Civil Rights movement overall?

CJ: Well, I think it was, um, one of the important parts of the marches was to raise the level of attention of Americans across the country and people across the world and country, um, but also kinda to strengthen the involvement of that community in terms of fighting for what basically you know were our rights, you know, and so that I think was very important.

RM: Um, so how did participating in the March affect you growing up and how-like who you’ve become today?

CJ: Well, I think that, um, one of the things I can say about growing up in a time of, you know, racial strife as we did, uh, it might not be quite the same as some people as I feel for myself, the way we grew up in general in Selma I think, and they were raised from home-from my mother’s house and my grandmother’s and the schools that we went to, and the-just the upbringing that we had. We never, and I honestly believe I can say this for my siblings, um, we never saw black and white, believe it or not, and I literally mean that. When I see a, you know, a Caucasian or white American, I don’t really see that, I just see a persona and it’s always been that way. Um, however, I do realize that when I walk into a room, a person most often, that white Americans see a black man, uh, but, and that’s unfortunate, but I, uh, understand it, but for me and for my family for the most part, I can honestly say that we were raised, again, by, uh, you know, nuns and priests that were white, and we, you know, we saw them every single day, and they taught us how to write, how to read ,and everything. Our doctors were white, uh, so it kind of-and this was from an early age, you know, so there was never this issue of white and black as much as it is today for instance, uh, and, but that’s just the way it is.

RM: Ya. So how do you feel about the state of race relations today?

CJ: Well, um, you know, unfortunately, I have to say that we still have a long ways to go, um, and, you know, it’s unfortunate, you know. I think it’s not gonna come through the changes just like most changes, they come one person at a time realizing that we are all God’s children made equally, and, uh, you know, we should treat each other as we’d like to be treated, so, um, we still have a long ways to go, and that’s largely because people have, uh, certain criticisms in their minds that um they grew up with, and they can’t seem to let go, and this goes for on both sides for blacks and whites as well, because I could have grown up still, you know, having angers or whatever as many folks do, but that’s just not in me though.

RM: So, um, have you see the movie Selma?

CJ: I did not see the movie Selma.

RM: Okaym ya, I was gonna ask if, um, you thought that was accurate or not, but um-

CJ: [laughs] I’ve spoken to my-some people that I know. My sister-one of my sisters went, and she did not feel it, that was that accurate, um, but I can’t comment much on that, because again, I didn’t see it, so I really don’t know. Maybe one day I will see it just to see where they were coming from, uh, because ya, it would be interesting to see.

RM: Ya, I think it’s kind of interesting you, um, can kinda think about how, you know, that some of the extras may be portraying you in way. Um-

CJ: Okay

RM: -and your experiences.

CJ: Uh-huh.

RM: I think that could be fairly surreal to see that onscreen, but I know a lot of times with movies that try to capture historical moments, that they get things wrong and it’s just-

CJ: Right. So you say you did not see it?

RM: No, I haven’t seen it either. My family actually went to see it without me [laughs]

CJ: [laughs] Okay. I too watch a lot of historical pieces. I like history. In fact, um, but I’ve also seen a lot of, you know, misrepresentations of historical accounts, so, you know, it’s just so I don’t know it’s different, I guess if you were there. [laughs]

RM: I’d assume. [laughs] Um, so, is there anything else you think we should know about you or any of your experiences?

CJ: Um, well I hope to, um, you know-I hope to write about my experiences. As you’ve known, I’ve taken a lot of notes and written down about my experiences, and currently, I’m in a position where I do write, but I’m not writing, um, you kno, I’m writing technical documents and things of that nature. My background is electrical engineer as far as my profession goes-I hope to one day move into writing a little bit more historical accounts, as I saw and did things and how I see them today as well.

RM: That’s great. Well, that is all of my questions. Um, thank you so much. I really appreciate you allowing me to interview you today.

CJ: All right. Well, you are quite welcome.

[End of Transcript]

d. I feel the interview went very well, because I thought many of his stories were very vivid and painted a powerful illustration of what it was like to grow up during the Civil Rights Movement.  If I had done the interview differently, I would have attempted to be more conversational.  After the interview was over, we chatted for a few minutes about my view of racial issues, and we had a very interesting discussion about the the affects  living in a different area of the country, being a different age, or being a different race can have on viewing race relations.  I wish I had recorded that portion of the discussion.  I did not stay on script, because he answered many of my questions before I asked them, so I skipped a few questions.  I also added in a few reaction questions to some of his statements, so even though I did not follow the script, I’m glad I diverged as it helped the interview.