Kathryn Facemire Interview, History 150 Spring 2016, Conducted by Laura Kline, Evolving Gender Identities Thoughout the Previous Decades, March 10, 2016.
The interview took place in my old high school theatre studio. I recorded Facemire with my personal microphone and compiled the recording in Audacity. The audio might be very quiet, so you may have to turn the volume up.
I interviewed Kathryn Facemire. She was my theatre teacher throughout all of high school. Aside from being a theatre teacher, Facemire is also an English teacher. With those two subjects in mind, it is safe to say that Facemire was an easy person to talk to, especially because we have had many intellectual conversations over the past five years. Kathryn Facemire grew up in Virginia and graduated high school at the age of 16. She then went on to study theatre, sociology, and education at Virginia Commonwealth University. She also studied and traveled abroad in Europe, mainly Whales and Romania. Facemire is an actor and published playwright. She has been teaching for over twelve years and is married with one daughter, a cat, and a dog.
So far, I have found a few articles about the marketing of children’s toys. These articles state that in the 1950s, marketing was very much gendered, but in the 1970s, products weren’t marketed to any gender specifically. Then, when the 50s kids grew up, they changed the market for the newer generation by bring back very gendered marketing. That is where we are today. However, some stores are trying to change that and embracing the future with a 70s mindset.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/08/living/gender-based-signs-target-feat/
Laura: Hello.
Facemire: Hi.
L: It’s on now.
F: Okay.
L: Cool. So, which of the three options are you comfortable with having?
F: I’m comfortable with any of them.
L: Alright.
F: Whichever’s going to be most helpful to you.
L: Okay, cool. Thank you. And then would you like us to use a pseudonym, or ?
F: No, I’m comfortable with my name.
L: Okay. Cool, thank you.
F: Mm hmm.
L: So, the first question: I would like you to provide a brief bio about yourself, including your name and age.
F: Okay, I’m Kathryn Facemire. I’m 34 years old. I am a public educator with a background in theatre and English literature. And, I was born in Fairfax, Virginia. I’ve been married 14 years and, the youngest of five siblings. Let’s see, I have a nine year old daughter. What else is in my biography that’s interesting? Um, I’ve been in more countries then I have states. It’s kind of shaped my global perspective. That’s pretty much it, I think, that’s going to be relevant.
L: Yeah. Great. That’s awesome. First question: What, in your own words, is the difference between sex and gender?
F: Um, my own words are sort of the clinical definition or the societal definition and I try to incorporate this when I’m talking to students as well, that sex is biological and gander is societal. I get pretty particular about correcting people when they misuse those terms. Um, that gender has absolutely nothing to do with male or female as biology but it’s what society decides is feminine of masculine, and sex is determined by anatomy.
L: Thank you. What are your feelings on gender and the gender gap in general, or do you feel that there is a gap?
F: Absolutely. I feel there’s a gender gap and I think there’s evidence of that in terms of, you know, equal pay and expectations for women as far as what is still deemed appropriate in terms of profession, um.
L: Could you elaborate more on that?
F: Well, you know, the fact that there still isn’t equal pay for equal performance and we were actually discussing this in my class earlier today, that when I was younger there were role models in my life, or women that were expected to be role models that encouraged me not to be aggressive with my opinions, not to talk about politics, not to care about certain subjects in front of men because it was unattractive, or that it wasn’t my place, including even my own mother who is one of the best educated people I know, who would discourage me from being aggressive because it would be seen as unladylike. I think that that defiantly speaks to a gender gap. That men are encouraged to be passionate and aggressive and well-informed but women are discouraged from a young age from getting involved in certain fields of study. I think even though there are sometimes in the certain fields of study we are told to encourage young women go into science, go into math, there still is this underlying current that we’re supposed to give preference to little boys to answer questions and explore. That there still is this underlying current that the, it’s not for little girls.
L: Hm, thank you. Um, while you were growing up, what was expected of you?
F: Of me.
L: Were there set gender norms in your household or in your school or things like that?
F: Um, I was pretty fortunate to grow up in the house hold that I did and even though my mother would occasionally my mother would say things were not ladylike, my parents were pretty aware of wanting to avoid encouraging gender roles in our household. My father was not the kind of man who expected, you know, dinner on the table, and he was very much the kind of father who encouraged me to do whatever it was I wanted to do as a young lady, young woman. In his household I was encouraged to play sports that were traditionally male. He taught me to ride a motorcycle. There wasn’t anything that he believed wasn’t available to me as a girl. So I was really fortunate in that respect and I think my mother had more trouble because of the household that she was raised in, escaping from that charm school era that she was raised in a 1950s- 1960s traditional household where there were extreme gender roles forced upon her. So, she had, I think, trouble concurring that, concurring where she came from. But there weren’t really gender roles that were expected of me. My father absolutely never shied away from house work. Um, he was the cook in our household, so when it came time for chores um, to be passed down to children, it didn’t matter if you were male or female, you mowed the lawn. It didn’t matter if you were male or female, you did dishes, or you learned to iron. I’m really grateful that I grew up in a household like that because it’s not the kind of household my husband grew up in. That his mother did all of the housework and his father still does wake up in the morning and say things like where’s my breakfast. Um, and I have a hard time seeing that.
L: Um, how old were you when you began to notice gender differences?
F: Uhm, I think I was aware of gender differences when I was probably about three or four years old. I think I understood that they existed through things like Sesame Street. I understood differences in clothing, cause I had older brothers and I understood that I wore skirts sometimes and they didn’t and I understood that I didn’t like skirts. And I think that that was something I realized was happening. And I understood that it wasn’t okay for them to cry. And I think that, that I remember realizing that boys in the neighborhood got made fun of if they cried, but it was okay for me to cry. I remember being maybe three or four years old and there were people throwing rocks and a boy in my neighborhood got hit with a rock and got made fun of for crying and I was having a really hard time wrapping my head around why he was being made fun of for crying and being called names for crying because that had to hurt and I think that’s one of the things that I really clearly remember. Was that it was okay for girls to cry but not for boys. That had a pretty profound impact on me, that I didn’t think that was fair. I think that’s one of the first time I ever really understood that there were emotional differences as well as these physical and fashion differences. There was never really a difference in my house in terms of what toys you could play with, but that is one of the first times I remember really understanding there were differences in terms of the way we were allowed to behave.
L: Have you ever personally experienced or witnessed any bias because of gender to you or to somebody else, and how has that shaped you?
F: well, I think for sure everybody experiences bias because of gender. I think that, as a woman, I frequently get taken less seriously, professionally. I don’t know that I could point to a specific moment but I think I could point to multiple moments where I get taken less seriously. Because I work in the theatrical field, almost every time that I build a set, I don’t get taken seriously. Generally, its unfortunately by men who are the parents of the students, who have come to help me and they don’t mean to be disrespectful, but they look at me and they see a woman and they automatically assume that I need their help and I need to be told how to do what I’m telling them to do. I have a background in design and construction because of my degree. They don’t realize that I absolutely know what I’m doing and I’m the one telling them how to do it. There’s a constant second guessing that happens in that field. That’s really frustrating. That definitely is because of, not necessarily because of my gender, but because of my sex, because as I said, there’s a difference. But it defiantly does happen quite a bit in that respect but it also happens generally in when I’ve been a mentor in education. If I have to mentor a male teacher, sometimes I feel like I get taken less seriously because I’m a woman. There is this perception that I’m a nurturer and I’m not. I’m not a nurturing person just in general. I’m a loving person, but I’m not a nurturing person. I think that sometimes comes a shock to people. When they are wrong about my personality and they misread my personality, they expect me to be a nurturer and I’m not, they just decide that I’m mean. I think that comes down to gender as well. They decide oh she’s feminine she must be sweet and if I’m not, they’re sort of taken aback by it.
L: are there ways that you haven’t fit into society’s gender roles? Was this a conscious or unconscious decision?
F: I absolutely don’t fit into societal gender roles. My husband and I talk about that very frequently. My husband is by no means feminine and I don’t consider myself to be masculine but we don’t fit into the typical male female, feminine masculine couple. I’m much more aggressive and I’m the builder, I’m the bug killer in our family, and he’s the nurturer. As far as being a parent, he’s the primary care giver for our child. If she gets hurt, she goes to daddy. When she has nightmares, she calls for daddy. And I’m the one that fixes things. He’s the cook and I’m the one who changed the locks on our new house. I had to take the banister off because our mattress springs wouldn’t fit up the stairs. We don’t fit into a traditional relationship in the sense like I’m the happy housewife and he’s the breadwinner. And we never have. I think that’s one of the things that works really well for our marriage. But I’ve always been that way and I move differently than most women my age and my sex. I’ve never been at traditional woman in the sense that I’m not comfortable in heels, I’m uncomfortable in dresses. Do I own them? Sure. When I have my choice, I’m going to be wearing tennis shoes and jeans and flannel shirts. I have, for the majority of my post adolescent life to adulthood, I’ve been called all sorts of names. There’s constantly the assumption that I’m a lesbian, all sorts of ridiculousness because I don’t fit in to someone’s idea of feminine. I don’t think that I’m not feminine, I think that I’m not traditional. It’s just bizarre that because I don’t fit into this specific little grid and this little tiny box that my sexuality gets questioned almost daily. And like I said, I’ve been married 14 years. To a man.
L: As a parent, have you noticed any changes in marketing of children’s toys or products, especially in their relationship to gender?
F: Only recently, and I’m really excited about it. Because my daughter, I think because my husband and I our relationship, I think my daughter has some of the same tendency as I do in terms of her interests are not traditional. She, for her 3rd birthday, wanted Captain America high-fiveing Mario on her cake. And I couldn’t have been more excited about that. But she’s always liked super heroes and Star Wars and nontraditional “girl” toys, so I was really excited to see companies, particularly Old Navy and Target were the first ones that I noticed doing it, marketing gender neutral toys. Not even like traditionally boy’s toys towards girls, but gender neutral toys. That now, not every Star Wars toy that’s intended for a girl is Princess Leia. Now there are C3-PO shirts for girls and Yoda shirts for girls and even a Han Solo shirt for girls which is really exciting because Han Solo is her hero. But I have noticed that they’re starting to get a little more gender neutral. I still haven’t seen a tool belt for a girl that isn’t pink. There are tools for girls, but they’re all pink. And that’s crap. But it’s getting better. And you know, when I was a kid, there weren’t gender neural toys, there were vacuum cleaners and kitchens for girls. If you wanted a drill, they existed but they were for boys. Even when you were a kid, there were not gender neutral toys. If you wanted a Bob the Builder shirt, you were going to the boy’s section. So, the idea that anybody is receptive to gender neutral toys is a really big step forward. I still think it’s going to take at least a generation to get to the point where we’re actually looking at the idea of gender neutral in terms of clothing or toys, but at least we’re even thinking about it.
L: What advice do you give your daughter when it comes to subjects of gender, whether it’s bullying at school or questions come up about someone’s gender, etc.?
F: It’s happened quite a bit actually in the last couple years and we’ve talked about it and she’s really sensitive. She defiantly is a child that experiences empathy and one that experienced empathy at a really young age. So she notices when people are hurting and she notices when people are struggling. She’s aware of what gender means and she’s aware of what transgender means and there are some young people in her school, even at the elementary age that are struggling with gender identity. And she’s definitely seen the bullying. My advice to her is always the same. And that’s that we support everybody. We especially support underdogs. She’s sort of a social justice warrior, which I love but I also need to make sure that she doesn’t get hurt in the process. I want, more than anything, for her to just understand that as someone who experiences empathy, the most important thing she can do is extend love and support. That’s the most conversation we’ve had about it is how do I support. The answer is through understanding and through letting people know that there aren’t mistakes. That you are who you are and we love you no matter who you are and no one gets to decide for you. If someone else has something mean to say, we really don’t condemn them for what they say, we feel sorry for them that they use words that hurt. That’s sort of the solid answer that we’ve been able to give her. Instead of being hurtful back, we extend love, even to the people who are mean. It sounds so sappy, but it is the best answer we’ve been able to give. Cause I’ve heard some heartbreaking things over the last couple of years coming out of the mouths of elementary school students. It’s just getting scarier and scarier what younger children are dealing with.
L: Is there one thing about gender in society that you wish could change? What would it be and why?
F: I think it would be the lack of understanding. The idea that gender is concreate, that gender and sex are the same thing. That it’s this concrete idea that is decided for you. I get so angry when I see , social media I think is going to be the death of me, I think I will at some point implode, because I see these wildly ignorant posts about local school systems deciding that students have to use the restroom that identifies with their biological sex. It’s so dangerous to make that decision for students who don’t gender identify as their biological sex. The argument that by using the restroom the gender identify with they could risk sexually assaulting another student, those students are at risk for sexual assault if they’re forced to use the bathroom of their biological sex as opposed to the one they gender identify with. I’m inarticulate about this because I’m so angry about it. The one thing that I wish I could change is this idea that gender identity is the same thing as biological sex. I get so frustrated at the lack of understanding for the sexual minority. It’s heartbreaking, particularly when it affects youth. When these young people are treated with a complete lack of empathy and understanding. I’m the 14 years that I have been in public education, I have had students who were transgender, at least one every year. That’s a pretty large number. Its unbelievable, the amount of disregard and visceral that those individuals have had to deal with in their very short lifetimes.
L: that was all of the questions. Is there anything else that you would like to add?
F: No, I don’t think so. Unless there’s anything else that you need.
L: I think I’m good.
F: I have such trouble being articulate when I’m passionate.
L: No, it’s alright. Thank you very much.
F: You’re welcome.
————————————————————
I think that the interview went really well. We covered a lot of the things I had expected too and we even got to discuss transgender topics which I had not specifically intended, but I was very glad came up. I really enjoyed what Facemire had to say and later on Facebook she posted this:
My lovely former student, Laura Kline, interviewed me today for one of her classes. The topic was gender identity. It was a great conversation to have- discussing when I first became aware of gender roles, how fortunate I was to grow up in a home where my father didn’t really accept gender limitations, etc. But also getting to share my own experiences not fitting the societal ideal for a traditional woman. I’m not a nurturer. I’ve never been comfortable in dresses. I’m more comfortable with a framing nailer and a tool belt than a hand bag and heels. None of this makes me any less womanly, or even less feminine. Gender is not concrete. It is not biological. Sex is biology. End of rant.