Interview Transcript

1.Citation information:
Frank D. Draper Interview, History 150 Spring 2016, Conducted by Mary Harrison, Cold War and Communism, March 7th 2016.

2.Transcription:
a.My interview was conducted over the phone, because my Mr. Draper, who is my Grandfather, is vacationing on the west coast. I talk to him rather often, so setting up an interview time was not an issue. The only obstacle we had was the time difference. Because my Grandfather and I are so close, he was very comfortable speaking and our interview lasted an hour and ten minutes. He also answered a majority of my questions before I could even ask him. I used “Garage Band” to record our interview and made sure the room was quiet. He also gave me verbal consent that I could record the interview prior to the date.
b.Frank D. Draper was born in the “silent generation,” which is applied to those born from the late 1920s to early 1940s. The children who grew up during this time worked very hard and kept quiet. He came of age at the beginning of the “Cold War,” when grade school students practiced crouching under their desks in case of an atomic bomb attack by Russia. He graduated from college in 1958 as an English/Philosophy major. Rather than pursue his dream of going to New York to follow a career in acting, he accepted a job in the Intelligence field and was a Cold War “warrior” throughout the late 50’s and 60’s. Along the way he served in the US Marine Corps, was a special agent in what is today the NCIS, and also received a Ph.D. with an emphasis on Soviet economics. He left the field in 1970 to work in the rural poverty program with the President’s Office of Economic Opportunity. He later led U.S. government scientific missions to Russia when it was breaking apart in the early 1990’s.
c.The Cold War had a dynamic impact on American culture, politics, and economics on the second half of the 20th century. The conflict can be traced back to opposing values between the United States, representing capitalism and democracy, and the Soviet Union, representing communism and authoritarianism. Because they were the two dominant world powers following World War II, the Cold War became a global affair. The Korean and Vietnam Wars are key examples of military intervention of the United State’s policy of Containment. However, these wars did not have the decades long, dynamic impact that the Cold War brought onto American citizens.

MH: What was life like being born into the “silent generation” and living through the Great Depression and the Cold War, and how does that compare to current society from your children to your grandchildren?

FD: I was born in the Great Depression, 1936, I’m going to be 80 years old. I guess I saw the entire Cold War, and after I graduated from college I went to work for the government in intelligence. But first let’s talk about the Cold War. The Cold War started after the second World War when the Soviet Union had the atomic bomb, then China later had it. So it was called the Cold War because obviously it was not a hot war. We weren’t actually doing combat with the Russians but we were in a period of coexistence. The whole point was that they had the bomb, and we had the bomb, and we didn’t want anyone to blink; they weren’t going to shoot at us so we weren’t going to shoot at them. So everyone treated Russia and China at arms length. In the 1950s we had drills about once a month, and we were supposed to get under the desks in case there was an atomic bomb… I don’t know what the desks were for. All over the country, kids in grammar school and other places, would have atomic bomb tests. So that whole era, and beginning in the 1950s and ending with the Cold War until the Soviet Union collapsed. The 50s was a period of looking at what the Russians were doing and what they were doing with us. The Soviet’s spies and our spies really went eyeball to eyeball, but still nothing really of a hot war nature. Now, what made the Cold War really become hot was in 1959, Fidel Castro, the President of Cuba, had a revolution and essentially he was a communist. And the Soviet Union of course, greeted him with open arms, because he was of course only 90 miles away from the southern tip of Florida. So that was really the beginning of heightened tensions, when Castro came to power in 1959 and shortly right after we realized he was a communist. What really plummeted the Cold War in 1960… and made it become much more warmer lets put it that way… One of our spy planes flew over the Soviet Union. In those days, they flew very high- 70 to 80 thousand feet. The Soviet Union shot it down our U2 plane- they developed missiles that could shoot that high and of course captured one of our spies. They put on a big show trial and then President Eisenhower had to apologize and the excuse was that it was a satellite plane; we concocted some idea. But this is where I come into the picture because in 1958 when I eventually left for college in Philadelphia, I took a test. I was going to go to New York to study acting, but first I took this test, that was given by the National Security Agency. And if you know anything about the National Security Agency, it is today essentially the code breaking outlet of the United States. If you look in the newspaper you’ll find the NSA is always in the news. The big thing in the last couple years was when one of their contact employees, Mr. Snoden, left the United States and took with him a lot of stuff that really damaged our national security- but that’s another era. So in 1958 I took this test and must have nailed it because a month or two later they called back and said no one else apparently passed it. I asked them I said ‘What is it?’ so they handed me this brochure and all it said on it was something about national defense. But then I asked the magic question: ‘Well what will I be doing there?’ And I will never forget his words he said, ‘We’ll tell ya when you get there.’ So when I graduated in June of 1958 I went down there with a few other guys and it was probably more secret in those days than today’s CIA. There was even no sign between Baltimore and DC for this military instillation. I found the job very interesting, I just didn’t like that it was in an office all day doing all the work that they wanted me to do. Then I went to graduate school, and then went into the Marine Core in the early 60’s. What was happening then of course was that President Kennedy was in office. After he was sworn in on 1961 he immediately decided to invade Cuba, this is all public knowledge now of course. And its called the Bay of Pigs. And we were essentially captured. Of course this was a great embarrassment towards Kennedy, and from that point on he really never trusted the CIA or the military staff. Then what happened in 1962, the Cold War got even hotter. Then the Premier of the Soviet Union, Khrushchev… Well first by that time I had been studying Russian. I started in the graduated program and I eventually took a P.H.D. in Soviet Studies. So what happened in 1962 in the Soviet Union under Premier Khrushchev, developed strategic missiles. He decided to put nuclear missiles in Cuba that were aimed directly at the United States. So of course, you know, this is a direct threat to our national interest. So what we did was blockade the Soviet Union’s ships coming in and delivering supplies. This was probably the most dangerous part of the Cold War because we were in a direct confrontation for once. So actually, Khrushchev backed down, and it was released later that this was because we said ‘Okay, you take out your missiles in Cuba and we’ll take ours out of Turkey.’ Because we had missiles surrounding the Soviet Union and satellite countries; in those days it was not only Russia but Poland, Checkoslavakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgania, Germany… Those were all the countries that brought the Soviet Union as a defense perimeter. Now of course all those countries have broken apart from the Soviet Union. So that confrontation in 1962 when President Kennedy stared down the Soviet Union, instead of listening to his military saying to use the missiles. Kennedy stood firm and this pushed the height of the Cold War. Now you have to understand that beginning of the 1950s we had East and Germany split off, East being communist and West being the free world. So that whole situation consisted through the 50s, 60s, 70s, and late 80s. Now what happened of course is the idea of a Cold War influenced our foreign policy and that’s how we got essentially into Vietnam. If you go back, President Kennedy when he was sworn in 1961, there was nothing in his speech about domestic policy- nothing about the economy, jobs, none of that. It was all about foreign policy. If you think about it its highly unusual. Today, when the president takes office he talks about the economy and where we should be and everything like that. But in 1961, it was all foreign policy. President Kennedy’s famous words in 1961 during his inaugural speech was ‘we will pay any price,’ or in other words ‘pay any price for our freedom.’ And what that influence of course was, how we got into the Vietnam War. The Vietnam War was in the 1960s where we lost about 58,000 men and women, and that’s why there’s a Vietnam wall down on the mall in DC. Some of my friends are on that wall. And then when JFK was assassinated on November 22nd, 1963, Lyndon Johnson became president. I was in Washington that day, by the way. And let me just back up, after I had gotten out of the Marine Core, I got a job as what is today the NCIS. Yes, I am an NCIS Agent. It used to be called the Office of Naval Intelligence, but it’s the same thing- the FBI of the Navy. So I started in Philadelphia as a special agent- and this is a little side bar to that- but when President Kennedy was inaugurated he came to Philadelphia for the first Army/Navy game. So in 1961 I helped guard him with the Secret Service, and there was only maybe 8 or 10 of us. Today the president has like an army. But when the president traveled they would pick up my company’s agents. I could virtually touch him if I tried, and that was a great thing, to guard the President of the United States. Beautiful afternoon for the game. But that’s a little side bar. I stayed in Philly as a special agent until January 1963 and then I was transferred so I came to Washington. And I was actually there for the March on Washington. I can remember going out and seeing everybody and we were sitting there with guns on the table. I hate to say it, but there were guns on the table. I don’t know what for, but that’s just a side note. So I was a special agent in DC and then I joined another intelligence agency in the Pentagon. And it was still the height of the Cold War. Khrushchev got a little too cozy with the United States and during that time we had talks with our presidents. So the Cold War computed over many years and many events. The big event, was the late 1980s when President Reagan got with Premiere Gorbachev, who was what I guess you’d call a moderate. So what they started to do was, I hate to say friendly… But they came to respect one another and Gorbachev, oddly enough, took down the borders that surrounded the Soviet Union. No one knows why. The East Germany people started streaming across the border into free land. With that, all these other countries started opening up their borders. And the Soviet Union started to break apart. All these countries involved in the Cold War- Bulgaria, Romania, East Germany- their borders came down. The Berlin Wall came down. You have to understand that East and West Berlin have been separated from the beginning of the Cold War. The Soviet Union actually put up this wall, until it came down in the late 80s. So Reagan and Gorbachev got together and everything broke down. The monalist of the Soviet Union and their satellites-like Poland, Bulgaria, Chekoslavakia, all those- broke apart. So by that time I was out of intelligence and working for the National Science Foundation. So when the Soviet Union satellites broke apart in the late 1980s, in 1990, I was lead a delegation of our engineers over to the Soviet Union to make contact with their Russian engineers. I went over with about thirteen deans from Universities of the United States. At that time I had a PHD in Russian Studies and could Speak Russian… Well at least enough to get along. I was flying into Russia and wondering what it was going to be like, because you know, this was the country I fought against. In another sense, I was a Cold War ‘Warrior.’ So this was a really big deal. As I was landing into the Moscow airport, I couldn’t help wondering how culture this would be. I mean we fought the Soviets for all those years… almost fifty years later. So I still remember going in- once again they had the high technicians and the space and essentially brilliant people. So I got in there and I was amazed. I was like ‘Are these the people we’ve been fighting against?’ Their people greeted me with open arms, we never had any problems… but they were just smokers and drinkers. And, my goodness, I thought they would have killed themselves. They had vodka kiosks, just like hot dog stands. The automobiles were rundown, the facilities were rundown… Like what they considered the best hotels you would turn the light on and there would be roaches on the wall. So I lead two trips over there and stayed for two weeks each. We went into the houses of the Russians and they were always happy to see us. This country was breaking apart and it was amazing and rare to see, I just went in 1990 and 1991. All the satellite countries- like Bulgaria, the Romanias, the Germanys- they had all also broken apart. Russia was on its legs. The first time I went over there in 1990, my host said we were going to go out and go to an auction that took placed in the 1980 Olympic stadium. This was the same stadium that President Carter didn’t allow the United States to participate in because of the Cold War. But anyway, we went to the auction and everyone was selling everything. Their jewelry, all their personal belongings, everything they could to make a dollar. The economy had broken apart, so no one was paying anybody. So I still remember going up to this one old lady, she had these porcelain bracelets. They only wanted American dollars, they didn’t want to Russian “ruble” currency. She only wanted two dollars but I was ashamed and gave her twenty. And she just kissed my hand because she was starving. And the place was ripe with corruption. So one night when we were headed back from Moscow at around 10 pm, our car broke down. The host saw this house and wanted to approach it and I couldn’t figure out why. So we banged on it, and there were these two old Russian ladies, two old sisters. They invited us in and we had tea and cheese- that was probably the only thing they had and they probably had never seen any Americans. My host introduced me as a big man from the United States, one of those things. They were down on their knees just about. By that time the police had come along, and you have to understand how corrupt the Russians were. Even though the country was breaking apart, the police had all the power. So they took us back to the police station because they didn’t like what we were doing and the police station was something out of the middle ages. It was rusty and dirty, and the bathrooms were holes in the ground. So we finally got out of there at about three in the morning and were heading back to Moscow. I don’t think they still do it, or at least I hope not, but the police hung out around the front of the beltway and stopped anyone trying to get on. They asked where we were going and then demanded we pay them a high fee to get onto the highway. Later in life, I invited the Russian engineers over to the states, and hosted them dinner and things like that. I still remember, they wanted to go shopping when they came here. And I told them they had to have dollars, and they responded they did. So they had these dollars, I looked at them, and they were dollars from the 1930s. They had been hoarding these dollars for 50 years. So I took them shopping, and its interesting, do you know what they really wanted to take back to Russia? Self sharpening knives.

MH: Why did they want those?

FD: Because they had never seen them before. Ya know, the Russians had never seen self-sharpening knives. So heres the point of the whole story: Russia could put a man on the moon, they were the first people in space- and yet they couldn’t develop self sharpening knives. I mean that tells you something about where their focus was. It was not on the consumer in the Soviet Union. It was on beating the United States in space and in their technicians… and they were brilliant. It was funny, the American deans and I visited all these research universities in Russia, and the first thing these rectors do- at 10 am- it bring out a bottle of vodka from their desk and have a shot. I mean they were ironically doing brilliant research on technical things, but at the same time, they had no reason to make self sharpening knives. Another example was when I was packing for my visit, I was preparing for the worst diet. Even though what we were going to eat was probably going to be the best of the best, I knew it wasn’t going to be good. So what I did is I brought three or four jars of peanut butter with me. So one time, I showed it to the Russians who were hosting me. They said ‘What’s that?’ I said ‘Well, that’s peanut butter.’ They said ‘My God, that’s amazing.’ They didn’t have peanut butter in Russia. I left them a jar. It was like gold. So that was that. So coming back into the Soviet Union after being a ‘Cold War warrior’ as one might call it, after writing my doctorate dissertation on Soviet Economics, things like that, and so to go over to the country and see these people we fought… my goodness. If they didn’t smoke themselves to death or drink themselves to death I don’t know what we were scared of. But highly skilled technicians and extreme military mite, but couldn’t make self sharpening knives? They were so corrupt that if you wanted to travel around the country you had to pay the police? So that’s the Cold War, it started in 1945 after World War II, and lasted through the 50s and had the Cuban Missile Crisis and Vietnam War, and all through the 70s, and it was finally Ronald Reagan finally broke it apart, and being there in the 90s… And now its 25 years later. I still cannot believe that these were the people we were fighting against in the Cold War.

MH: How does your experiences influence your perspective on communism or on the US government?

FD: That’s a good question. In our society after the second world war, we considered ourselves a Christian and godly nation, whether everyone liked it or not. So when communism comes along under the Soviets, its essentially an atheistic society. We had this reluctance to get along with any country that was not like us… I hate to say it. This idea perpetuated all through the Cold War because we were fighting a godless empire. That influenced how we approached our view of communism. It was always in the back of our minds that we couldn’t trust the Soviet Union. We never considered that if we reached some agreement it might be beneficial to them and it might be beneficial to us- we had a difficult time understanding that. That’s why we put up a wall around anyone who didn’t agree with us. And in many ways, its still perpetuates to this day. This idea of ‘we can’t negotiate because these people don’t believe the same things we believe.’ You know what I’m getting at Mary, don’t you? It trickles down into our own society, domestically… like this fear of the Muslims. Anyone who’s a Muslim must be after our head. This whole mentally has perpetuated itself that we tend to fear anyone who doesn’t abide by our society’s beliefs. That’s how the Cold War continues to influence our current way of thinking, and this whole idea of what we think the world should be. So a little personal opinion, I think President Obama has tried to push us away from that whole idea… but that’s another story. He had a great article in the Atlantic Monthly, and he said how we need to put into perspective of how we view other people and other countries; we can’t be the policemen of the world.

MH: How do you think the United States was impacted socially in terms of the Cold War, or if at all?

FD: Well anybody that looked like they might have been left of center, politically… in other words: its very interesting today that one of the candidates in the democratic election, Bernie Saunders, is a socialist. And its been brought out by his opponents on the other side that socialism is just a step below communism. So communism has impacted anything that facts of the federal government should be involved in at a central level Such as Obamacare, affordable care act, social security, medicare- they have always been viewed as socialism. Its got that paint to it, that these are unfortunately viewed as one step below communism.

MH: In hindsight, what do you believe could have been done differently to perhaps end the Cold War sooner?

FD: Well, you have to understand that probably… Not too much. Maybe that’s the answer I’m meant to give. You have to understand that the Soviet Union, in the second world war, they were guard by hard liners. These were people that viewed the United States as a threat to their existential existence. In other words, they thought the United States was just out to blow them up. Because of course Communism had this mentality beginning in 1917 from the Bolshik Revolution in Russia, and Stalin came in and the Soviet Union came into being. They viewed capitalism and coherently evil. Even though we were essentially allies with them in the second world war to defeat Germany and Japan, so this whole ideas of hard liners came out after the war. Any treaty with the Soviets with the United States was considered useless by them. Stalin was the most bitter hardliner. And Khrushchev was somewhat of a moderate on the spectrum. But essentially, everyone was a hardliner and didn’t trust the United States and it only came past in the late 1980s when Reagan challenged them and Gorbechev said the Soviet economy could no longer compete with us. It was only then, when they attempted to be somewhat peaceful. What could have been done differently? The political climate was filled with such hatred… “Those dirty commis.” Calling someone a commi was the worst thing you could say about somebody. So when you look back on it, Mary, I think its my personal opinion… It would have been nice if we didn’t spend those literally trillions of dollars. If you think of what those dollars could have bought- hospitals, medical research, things like that. But yet they had to go to our arms race. We couldn’t do much about it because we were competing with a threat to our existence too. But could have it been different? In hindsight, unless you have had changed the way people thought about each other, there ain’t much that could have been done. Unfortunately. The Cold War still continues to an extent and we’re cozy enough with Mr. Putin over there, the President of Russia, or the Prime Minister? Mr. Putin Razi show, let’s put it that way. Hes of course pressing the United States… Any place we are, he’s right there too.

MH: Wow, you’ve definitely answered all of my questions. Is there anything else you’d like to add?

FD: Another little story, when I was in Russia is that we took an overnight train from Moscow to Ukraine. So we were going to fly back to St. Petersburg, when I got on the Russian commercial plane, they had us in a separate part. I hate to say it but it was because we were “big leagues” from the United States. I will never forget, I am sitting in the plane, and I see this flight attendant and wondered what she was doing. Now the plane is being refueled, and she’s sitting there smoking a cigarette. And I said ‘oh my God!’ Then I tried to put on the seatbelt in the first class, and the seat belt didn’t work. My God. The best part was, I was sitting there waiting for it to take off and then they brought on the locals. I see this guy walking down the isle with an automobile tire. And he sits with it on his lap. And I finally figured out the rule of thumb was that if you could carry it on, you could sit down with it. So he was taking a tire from Ukraine to St. Petersburg. That tells you something about their state of airline was. You’re not supposed to be smoking on the airline when the plane is refueling, the seat belts don’t work, and this guy is carrying on a tire. I mean, is there any rule or anything around? I mean this is the perfect example of a society that had just broken down. I mean I was scared, when I was flying these 2,000 miles. I was wondering if these controllers of the airlines were being paid? Do they care? I’m not scared of flying, I was scared of exactly where we were. They didn’t pay the people. It was amazing to see this whole country break apart after the Cold War and seeing people trying to make a dollar, like the lady who kissed my hand. It was a barter economy, people were selling everything. Everything imaginable. They were just trying to stable hunger and trying to figure out everything that was happening in the society. And I really got to see a first hand experience of everything happening in the Soviet Union.

MH: Thank you very much for your time, Poppop!

d. Overall, the interview went great. My Grandfather was very prepared to talk about the Cold War and answered almost all of my questions before I even asked. He provided me with very insightful information and I really enjoyed this opportunity to learn about his past.